Dark Knight Megathread

The things I would like to see out of DRK, going forward...

1. Oblation is turned into a passive trait that modifies The Blackest Night, giving it 10% damage reduction for the full duration regardless of whether or not the shield breaks. Maybe also have it replace TBN's animation with Oblation's.
2. TBN loses its MP cost entirely, but also loses its Dark Arts proc and has its recast timer raised to 25 seconds.
3. Dark Arts procs are generated once every 30 seconds while Darkside is active. You can have up to two charges at a time.
-- This is literally Enochian, but unless they do away with Dark Arts entirely, it has to come from somewhere, and I'd prefer this to a button that does nothing but generate charges.

4. Living Dead's proc, Walking Dead, loses its healing requirement entirely. If this is somehow too powerful, then reduce the duration of Living Dead itself to compensate.
5. Dark Mind gets some small mitigation in addition to its magic resistance.
-- DRK used to have Dark Dance for that, iirc. Maybe they could bring back that effect and bake it into Dark Mind.
6. Dark Missionary is given at the same level as Heart of Light (64).
-- It is literally the same ability, so I don't see why this wasn't the case to begin with.

7. Blood Weapon grants five charges that are expended upon using any weaponskill or spell. The duration is raised to 30 seconds.
8. Shadowbringer replaces Edge/Flood of Shadow while you have a Dark Arts proc available, and consumes those procs in place of Edge/Flood of Shadow.
-- Note that this is technically a nerf. It's using up Dark Arts procs, which otherwise would have been used by Edge of Shadow. Assuming 2 Dark Arts procs per minute, that would mean going from 1600* every 60 seconds (Edge+Edge+Shadowbringer*) to 1200 every 60 seconds (Shadowbringer+Shadowbringer). To compensate, Shadowbringer's potency could be raised to 700 or 800.
*I've heard Edge of Shadow's potency will be lowered in Endwalker, but I'm only familiar with the current number.

9. Stalwart Soul is given at level 40, just like Mythril Tempest, Prominence, and Demon Slaughter. Traits are added at 64 and 72 that let it restore MP and generate Blood respectively.
10A. Abyssal Drain's base heal potency is raised to 800, with every additional target healing you for 200 potency.
10B: Alternatively, Abyssal Drain grants you five charges that cause your weaponskills and spells to heal you for 400 potency (ST) or 200 per target (AOE).

I saw someone on Reddit suggest that TBN gets a two shields, 15+10%, and if the first shield breaks you'll get your free flood/edge. Either that or it gives you a proc at 50%. It wouldn't require much changing but would make the ability more functional outside of straight tank busters. Probably a better idea with a similar concept but something like that would probably be a good QoL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalocin

I saw someone on Reddit suggest that TBN gets a two shields, 15+10%, and if the first shield breaks you'll get your free flood/edge. Either that or it gives you a proc at 50%. It wouldn't require much changing but would make the ability more functional outside of straight tank busters. Probably a better idea with a similar concept but something like that would probably be a good QoL

---

This would be better... but at the same time, it'd also remove the main point of the mechanic. Not that I'm a huge fan of that mechanic, so... /shrug?

(Alternatively, have it grant MP proportionate to barrier consumed?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This would be better... but at the same time, it'd also remove the main point of the mechanic. Not that I'm a huge fan of that mechanic, so... /shrug?

(Alternatively, have it grant MP proportionate to barrier consumed?)

---

Like I said, probably a better idea with a similar concept. You'd lose the flashy bit with the skills but even just getting mana back would be a better execution. The all or nothing approach if it has to be tied to a dps ability is probably the larger issue at heart

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalocin

Like I said, probably a better idea with a similar concept. You'd lose the flashy bit with the skills but even just getting mana back would be a better execution. The all or nothing approach if it has to be tied to a dps ability is probably the larger issue at heart

---

Agreed. I'm fine with max reward only coming from max consumption, but I hate getting nothing despite having consumed some 80+% of that barrier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Agreed. I'm fine with max reward only coming from max consumption, but I hate getting nothing despite having consumed some 80+% of that barrier.

---

There is also absolutely no cohesion with the kit. Increasing ally defenses is good and does make shields better... but if you didn't use Dark Passenger or Oblation there then maybe that 1% that was left would have broken? Well, PLD gets cover and also has no cohesion with their kit since they get a lot of self healing. It doesn't even work with HG. This seems backwards to me...

Dark Knight, thematically, was a knight who dropped his shield in order to make better use of his sword to defend as many people as possible, but always knows you cannot save them all. Instead, our main ability... is a shield. You either need to provide a reward even if it doesn't break, or you need to ensure ways for it to break after all. I still think an AoE cover effect would be really unique. Standing near the DRK redirects damage to it (Damage cap being a percentage of DRK HP to ensure it never outright kills him) so you can use TBN on yourself and ensure it breaks.

Hell, with an AoE cover, you can make it apply its damage as a dot that matches the duration of TBN. It would be like divine veil, but edgy. DoTs are easy to deal with since shields and regen effects both counteract it very well and throwing TBN on when you aren't at full health means regen effects will top you off while you wait for it to break your TBN.

Comming from XI ; reaper is now dark knight, so maybe XIV drk should embrace it's runic roots (with already having a magic def focus) ?
For self healing ; have tbn/oblation grant some "absorbed damage" stacks on break that can be used on some self-heal when needed ?
Maybe turn living dead into straight absorb ? (kinda OP but not really ? at most you get a full heal. they deserve it for having to unlive with with current version for so long anyway)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calysto

(with already having a magic def focus) ?

---

If every fight has balanced magic and physical damage, this simply pigeonholes DRK into MTing certain parts of the fight, more so than standard tank-swaps; if such forces them into or to remain MT when a tank could otherwise rotate a defensive, it becomes wasteful and people would rather not have DRK.

If not every fight has balanced magic and physical damage, this simply forces DRK in on some fight (to the vitriol of all other tanks) and out on others (to their scorn).

In a game as generally homogeneous (and mostly empty of highly-variable-value utility) as XIV, defining a job's identity off of mere damage type is a very bad idea.



Apart from that, though, these ideas seem fine. TBN and LD aren't the best places to put that self-healing, imo, but DRK is quite literally undertuned in that regard and soon to have no (even theoretically) compensating capacity to balance that out, so we can afford to straight up buff its self-sustain.

Not saying it's usefull, just that magic damage mitigation was runic point in XI that XIV drk inherited (along with using great swords).
I'm surprised physical/magical damage is still a thing; i'm pretty sure soon everthing will be "neutral damage".
(and for the healing, I was going with runic "absorb" theme ; just some random ideas)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

3. Dark Arts procs are generated once every 30 seconds while Darkside is active. You can have up to two charges at a time.
-- This is literally Enochian, but unless they do away with Dark Arts entirely, it has to come from somewhere, and I'd prefer this to a button that does nothing but generate charges.

---

Oh my God, this is amazing! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before? Having Dark Arts tied to the Darkside timer is wonderful idea. Since the skill can only be used every 30 seconds, it alleviates the Dark Arts spam that plagued 4.0 DRK. And it also expands the use of the Darkside mechanic as well.

Seriously, why hasn't SE or anyone else here thought of this? Props to you Rosenstrauch. Oh, and your other suggestions are good too, but this Dark Arts rework is fantastic.

It would be nice to have Stalwart Soul acquired at the same levels the other tanks get their second AoE variation. Unlike the other tanks, DRK has to wait until 72 just to get their second AoE move; also, of all the things they could have done with BW, why they still have it on a timer is beyond me. Idk who's decision it was to keep it that way or if it's just the JPN community talking, but that is just awful.

Personally, I like the idea of removing the MP cost from TBN, putting it to 25 seconds, and perhaps adding some type of health benefit tying into the shield itself if it breaks (or not); perhaps, once it breaks or does not you get some kind of healing benefit, sorta like Heart of Conundrum. Then again, some people would probably not want that as it would be too similar. LD is another issue in itself as some people I talk to think it is a 20 second invul.

While I play DRK casually or just for fun even I see it as a WAR clone. I miss having Sole Survivor as at least if you didn't kill the enemy, you still got 20% HP and MP back vs. 30%, respectively. A new combo would have been sweet, but hey, that is asking for too much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syaoran_Black

It would be nice to have Stalwart Soul acquired at the same levels the other tanks get their second AoE variation. Unlike the other tanks, DRK has to wait until 72 just to get their second AoE move; also, of all the things they could have done with BW, why they still have it on a timer is beyond me. Idk who's decision it was to keep it that way or if it's just the JPN community talking, but that is just awful.

---

I guess we're just ignoring Flood of Darkness at 30, Salted Earth at 52, and Abyssal Drain at 56 for some reason because they're OGCD?

WAR doesn't get Mythril Tempest until 40 and then technically has Steel Cyclone at 45 but good luck ever finding opportunity to use it when you don't generate beast gauge from AoE until 74, leaving them with effectively just 2 moves for the vast majority of AoE situations until then.

They're different implementations. I thought you wanted them to be distinct from each other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarrick

I guess we're just ignoring Flood of Darkness at 30, Salted Earth at 52, and Abyssal Drain at 56 for some reason because they're OGCD?

WAR doesn't get Mythril Tempest until 40 and then technically has Steel Cyclone at 45 but good luck ever finding opportunity to use it when you don't generate beast gauge from AoE until 74, leaving them with effectively just 2 moves for the vast majority of AoE situations until then.

They're different implementations. I thought you wanted them to be distinct from each other.

---

^ Unless the DRK were doing noticeably less AoE across the same pull sizes in the same leveling dungeon than other tanks would do at that same level... I don't see the need for Stalwart Soul so early.

You're inevitably balanced around getting your AoE-pt.2. That means, in effect, that you just have a weaker AoE-pt.1 (including its surrounding available AoE ppm via abilities) while being forced to backload each AoE cast with its requisite Part-B.

If hitting ABABAB were really that much more fun than AAAAA (and the occasional 12 strike to give the last MP boost needed for Flood, which is stronger than Mythril anyways), I could understand wanting to nerf Flood (and by counterpart, Edge) across levels 40-72 to make way for Stalwart Soul, but... is it, actually?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by currentlemon

Oh my God, this is amazing! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before? Having Dark Arts tied to the Darkside timer is wonderful idea. Since the skill can only be used every 30 seconds, it alleviates the Dark Arts spam that plagued 4.0 DRK. And it also expands the use of the Darkside mechanic as well.

Seriously, why hasn't SE or anyone else here thought of this? Props to you Rosenstrauch. Oh, and your other suggestions are good too, but this Dark Arts rework is fantastic.

---

Because this wouldn't solve anything for the Darkside timer as an issue. The only way it could fall off is outright neglect, meaning tying something to 30 seconds of being under Darkside is just a 30 second cooldown with extra fluff

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

^ Unless the DRK were doing noticeably less AoE across the same pull sizes in the same leveling dungeon than other tanks would do at that same level... I don't see the need for Stalwart Soul so early.

You're inevitably balanced around getting your AoE-pt.2. That means, in effect, that you just have a weaker AoE-pt.1 (including its surrounding available AoE ppm via abilities) while being forced to backload each AoE cast with its requisite Part-B.

If hitting ABABAB were really that much more fun than AAAAA (and the occasional 12 strike to give the last MP boost needed for Flood, which is stronger than Mythril anyways), I could understand wanting to nerf Flood (and by counterpart, Edge) across levels 40-72 to make way for Stalwart Soul, but... is it, actually?

---

If you balance a job around something that makes the job feels bad, you still have a bad job, even if it is balanced. We aren't asking for a balance update, we're asking for interactive gameplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaduera

Because this wouldn't solve anything for the Darkside timer as an issue. The only way it could fall off is outright neglect, meaning tying something to 30 seconds of being under Darkside is just a 30 second cooldown with extra fluff

If you balance a job around something that makes the job feels bad, you still have a bad job, even if it is balanced. We aren't asking for a balance update, we're asking for interactive gameplay.

---

I don't see how ABABAB and nothing of value on which to spend what B affords is any more interactive, really, than AAAAA and a decent Flood.

At least with a decent Flood I have better AoE-downtime value, allowing me to bank for a large pull, whereas (still assuming starting from full MP) if Flood were more thoroughly afforded over uptime and nerfed accordingly, I'd have dealt less damage over the first 15 seconds or so.

You're effectively trading 3.3 charges of Flood, accelerated by a CD (Blood Weapon) for 3.3 charges of a weaker Flood that's accelerated both by a CD and, much more significantly, every other GCD. Do you want a greater amount of potency bankable and less uptime generation (which is equally greater downtime generation, relatively speaking) or less potency bankable and more uptime generation? That's all it comes down to. It isn't so cut-and-dry, DRK-got-screwed-again-in-such-an-obvious-way. The throughput is there and there's quite a bit more control and burst in DRK's model of AoE over those levels than on any other tank over those levels (save perhaps GNB's capacity for, situationally obligatory, focus-target damage).

So let's actually define what appeals to you in that interactive gameplay. Is it the uptime generation, similar to WAR's reducing the CD of Infuriate per BG spender (but in this case Flood via each SS cast, via MP)? Do we just want to see one skill being more dependent on another, or less of a skill's throughput being dependent on CDs or single-target (situationally damage)? What is the appeal of that economy?

I don't think there's just one right answer -- the appeal of this or that will have different product of the number of people it appeals to and the extent to which it appeals to them -- but if we're just copying over the other tank's models on the assumption they must be better and no more thought-out solution is worth the effort compared to slapping another's on more directly or earlier, we've already seen how that goes. Can't we at least think about this before demanding we have whatever they're having in the forms they're having it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I don't see how ABABAB and nothing of value on which to spend what B affords is any more interactive, really, than AAAAA and a decent Flood.

At least with a decent Flood I have better AoE-downtime value, allowing me to bank for a large pull, whereas (still assuming starting from full MP) if Flood were more thoroughly afforded over uptime and nerfed accordingly, I'd have dealt less damage over the first 15 seconds or so.

You're effectively trading 3.3 charges of Flood, accelerated by a CD (Blood Weapon) for 3.3 charges of a weaker Flood that's accelerated both by a CD and, much more significantly, every other GCD. Do you want a greater amount of potency bankable and less uptime generation (which is equally greater downtime generation, relatively speaking) or less potency bankable and more uptime generation? That's all it comes down to. It isn't so cut-and-dry, DRK-got-screwed-again-in-such-an-obvious-way. The throughput is there and there's quite a bit more control and burst in DRK's model of AoE over those levels than on any other tank over those levels (save perhaps GNB's capacity for, situationally obligatory, focus-target damage).

So let's actually define what appeals to you in that interactive gameplay. Is it the uptime generation, similar to WAR's reducing the CD of Infuriate per BG spender (but in this case Flood via each SS cast, via MP)? Do we just want to see one skill being more dependent on another, or less of a skill's throughput being dependent on CDs or single-target (situationally damage)? What is the appeal of that economy?

I don't think there's just one right answer, but if we're just copying over the other tank's models on the assumption they must be better and no more thought-out solution is worth the effort compared to slapping another's on more directly or earlier, we've already seen how that goes.

---

It's because you go in with mana full and then go 1-2-1-2-1-2- then run out of mana with no way to regenerate it in the pulls outside of Blood Weapon that you can't do every AoE situation (and even if you do, unleash is not effected by skill speed), switching to just 1- -1- -1- until you maybe have MP. It's not about effectiveness, most people agree DRK is effective in all content because the balance team is on point. The job feels like an absolute slog to play and the progression takes ages to get anything that would be called necessary to its playstyle, and then after it finally gets the necessities for it's functionality, it then gets nothing after that except for more noise. If you design a job around something that feels bad, you have a bad design. Part of the reason that the Unleash and Flood playstyle is bad is because of the big picture. Were this an independent issue, I doubt many would care since AoE situations in the endgame don't even really matter that much.

Even 3.0 lacked a combo to AoE with... but we did have 2 on global options with good mana regeneration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaduera

If you design a job around something that feels bad, you have a bad design.

---

I'm not disagreeing with that.

I just don't feel that "I can sustain periodic Flood casts, so my Flood is now mostly just a rotational element" is necessarily any more interesting or fun a design than "I can't sustain my Flood casts -- they instead act largely like CDs -- so it's doubly important we burn everything here and now."

I've got 2 DRKs at 80, another at 62, and all but one tank each leveled to 80 across both main characters, and the last 8 levels of DRK are just nearly noticeable enough a change for me to call the pre-Stalwart gameplay stifled or even comparatively bad (relative to any other tank at that level) -- certainly not to the point that I'd want yet another shared tank mechanic slapped atop DRK with so little thought.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm not disagreeing with that.

I just don't feel that "I can sustain periodic Flood casts, so my Flood is now mostly just a rotational element" is necessarily any more interesting or fun a design than "I can't sustain my Flood casts -- they instead act largely like CDs -- so it's doubly important we burn everything here and now."

I've got 2 DRKs at 80, another at 62, and all but one tank each leveled to 80 across both main characters, and the last 8 levels of DRK are just nearly noticeable enough a change for me to call the pre-Stalwart gameplay stifled or even comparatively bad (relative to any other tank at that level) -- certainly not to the point that I'd want yet another shared tank mechanic slapped atop DRK with so little thought.

---

I see what you're saying, but homogenizing tanks is not what we're asking for. It is impressively bad design to require a resource in order to play optimally without also providing a way to gain that resource back, to the point that it is better design to give a resource that you have nothing to do with. Remember 3.0 PLD and Riot Blade giving MP? That was bad design because you got MP with nothing to do with it, but the complaints on PLD wasn't even the mana. Their mana regeneration was tied to their single target DPS combo while their mana consumption was tied to Flash for leveling, which was their AoE utility. The problem wasn't mana, the problem was the design of the job.

Removing flood and get Stalwart early is just putting a bandaid on a wound that clearly needs stitches. The gameplay at its core needs changing, not the progression. If you have a resource that must be used to generate another resources, there should be a way to loop these resources, especially in a game that uses a rotation based design philosophy. Most tank gauges are fine because they are buildups for something big, but Darkside is just a joke of an excuse to halt progression entirely in favor of saying "But flood does early DPS." You don't even get the Blood Gauge, another resource that should be managed, until level 62 because they use the Darkside timer as an excuse to not add another resource, but you aren't even trying to manage Darkside as a resource, you overcap on it repeatedly on accident because you might as well just use it off cooldown.

Since we're sharing credentials as if it means anything, I'm a mod author for a handful of games, most of which have classes. If FFXIV were not an MMO, DRK would be the only class I'd write a mod for that rebuilt the class from its bare bones. Every other job (that I have played) is fine and most I wouldn't even touch, usually this games design is excellent. Dark Knight is just fundamentally flawed right down to its bare bones, I would absolutely gut this job if this was a game I could mod. There needs to be better implementation of Darkside and a layer of mechanical execution that actually rewards the player in a meaningful way. DPS increase is meaningful, but you take away all depth when overcapping feels more like a necessity than a mistake. As it stands right now, dumping all of your MP in literally every situation and overcapping on Darkside is not a mistake, but a necessity. That's the same gameplay flaw twice in a single mechanic, and I can't express enough how abysmal that design philosophy actually is.

tl;dr: The jobs entire design is based around a system that has no reward for proper execution, if you want braindead gameplay, it would be better to stop hiding it and just make it braindead on a surface level as well, which is also still bad design, just better. Please, square... Give us a decision to make and make resource management actually matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaduera

I see what you're saying, but homogenizing tanks is not what we're asking for.

---

Asking for job A to get skill B at level C "just like all the other jobs in [role D]" -- as has been the majority share of those asking for earlier Stalwart Soul -- is doubtless going to arrive at homogeneity, though, unless the reasons are very carefully considered, though.

Quote:

---

It is impressively bad design to require a resource in order to play optimally without also providing a way to gain that resource back, to the point that it is better design to give a resource that you have nothing to do with. Remember 3.0 PLD and Riot Blade giving MP? That was bad design because you got MP with nothing to do with it, but the complaints on PLD wasn't even the mana.

---

Now we're getting somewhere.

Two nit-picks, however: At the time, all PLD AoE skills, direct (Flash) or indirect (Clemency), were dependent upon MP; thus, there was a means of use for that resource. Similarly, we do regenerate MP--passively, via a level 2 skill, a level 35 skill, a level 60 skill, and a level 68 skill, all prior to Stalwart's level 72.

While I ultimately think of MP on DRK (at present) as no more than an accelerable multi-charge cooldown system shared across multiple skills, I agree that if it's made a seemingly iconic center for the job, it ought to do more, cross over more frequently, etc..

But.... if you want all that... the real barrier isn't Unleash->Stalwart Soul so much just the current MP-spending concept on DRK. It's basic af. All MP will be, at present, is up to to 3.33 charges of TBN/Edge/Flood which you accelerate through certain skills. That's literally all it amounts to. If you want integral or interactive play, DRK's MP spending as a whole needs more there to actually interact with or around, rather than just more CD acceleration (which is all that the added MP per average AoE GCD of Stalwart amounts to).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Two nit-picks, however: At the time, all PLD AoE skills, direct (Flash) or indirect (Clemency), were dependent upon MP; thus, there was a means of use for that resource. Similarly, we do regenerate MP--passively, via a level 2 skill, a level 35 skill, a level 60 skill, and a level 68 skill, all prior to Stalwart's level 72.

---

Right, but I didn't expand on why it was bad design for PLD because A) it was fixed and B) This is a DRK thread. If anything, the fact they fixed it and ruined us is an insult. But I do need to point out passive regeneration is not better.
"You have a resource you get that you need to immediately dump asap to get your best use of this skill."
"Cool how do I regenerate the resource to maximize my gameplay?"
"Oh, you won't be doing that actively, it will come back by accident."
"So... I just use this skill when available with no thought?"
"Yep."
"... In a rotation based MMO that has most classes requiring resource management on a delicate balance?"
"Yeah we wanted this one to require no thought at all so even a braindead chimp could optimize the DPS."
"Oh... So if I like to play actively what should I play?"
"Lol literally anything else. This is the only one we did this to."

Quote:

---

But.... if you want all that... the real barrier isn't Unleash->Stalwart Soul so much just the current MP-spending concept on DRK. It's basic af. All MP will be, at present, is up to to 3.33 charges of TBN/Edge/Flood which you accelerate through certain skills. That's literally all it amounts to. If you want integral or interactive play, there needs to more actually there to interact with or around, rather than just more CD acceleration (which is all that the added MP per average AoE GCD of Stalwart amounts to).

---

Yes that's what we've been saying. You could also circumvent this by giving DRK a skill that consumes Darkside. You no longer want to overcap on Darkside, nor do you want to dump MP straight away since you will want to weave in your new Darkside skill. Something somewhere will have to give in potency probably, but it would add a layer of depth to an otherwise flat gameplay design. Like I said, "fixing" the stalwart soul and flood progression situation is just putting a bandaid on a wound that needs stitches. Nothing was "fixed" but at least you did something. What you really need to fix is the design, but I'd still rather have a bandaid than nothing. I'd rather have something that either also used MP so I had to make a choice, or something that consumed Darkside so I'd have to think about when to rebuild my Darkside and when to consume it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaduera

Yes that's what we've been saying. You could also circumvent this by giving DRK a skill that consumes Darkside. You no longer want to overcap on Darkside, nor do you want to dump MP straight away since you will want to weave in your new Darkside skill. Something somewhere will have to give in potency probably, but it would add a layer of depth to an otherwise flat gameplay design. Like I said, "fixing" the stalwart soul and flood progression situation is just putting a bandaid on a wound that needs stitches. Nothing was "fixed" but at least you did something. What you really need to fix is the design, but I'd still rather have a bandaid than nothing. I'd rather have something that either also used MP so I had to make a choice, or something that consumed Darkside so I'd have to think about when to rebuild my Darkside and when to consume it.

---

Ahh. It seems I missed the intermediate steps of the conversation, or just caught only the most repeated snippets without their earlier contexts.

Yes, I'd of course be down for making Darkside, MP, etc., actual, integral mechanics. So long as we're not stopping at Stalwart, let alone approaching it just because "Other tanks have X!" then I'm all for this. My concern was that mere bandaid would be used to avoid dealing with a festering wound. Frankly, DRK needs the surgery.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Ahh. It seems I missed the intermediate steps of the conversation, or just caught only the most repeated snippets without their earlier contexts.

Yes, I'd of course be down for making Darkside, MP, etc., actual, integral mechanics. So long as we're not stopping at Stalwart, let alone approaching it just because "Other tanks have X!" then I'm all for this. My concern was that mere bandaid would be used to avoid dealing with a festering wound. Frankly, DRK needs the surgery.

---

Aye, this being said there are a number of people using the "other tanks have x" which in my opinion is only valid in terms of healing and damage reduction, because we lack there too, as seen in numerous other threads. This thread is long enough many sub-conversations have been had so I can't fault you on that, but I am constantly seeing the Stalwart Soul issue come up VERY often.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaduera

Aye, this being said there are a number of people using the "other tanks have x" which in my opinion is only valid in terms of healing and damage reduction

---

Mm. About the way I see it:

• Lacking competitiveness in a given raid tier?

  If multiple other tanks are ahead (or any tank has advantage over all others), we should complain.

• Lacking a certain capacity?

  Well, does it affect our competitiveness, either in prog or parse-run frames of reference? If so, we should complain.

• Having merely different portions of capacities, such as less self-healing (but more damage absorbed, to a roughly nearly total, even in practice)?

  Unless it affects our competitiveness, probably not a concern.

• Having a more convoluted way of doing the same thing?

  Unless it affects our competitiveness and/or is no more fun (in any way) for having that unique procedure, probably not a concern.

At minimum, DRK lacks some a competitive invuln, to-be-minutely polished QoL, either broader applicability of its defensive, and/or self-sustain. I could spitball some quick "solutions", e.g.

• Blood Weapon would be fixed if it just lasted 11 or 12 seconds (4.2 to 4.6 GCDs when counting for animation lock costs, given how its MP-granting procedure works) instead of 10 (effectively 3.8 GCDs),
• TBN's applicability could be widened by not giving merely all-or-nothing MP recuperation (instead giving, say, MP cost reduction on next Flood/Edge proportionate to barrier consumed),
• Bloodspiller and Quietus themselves could grant a 5-second %lifesteal window (Quietus at lesser percentage, but refreshing the Bloodspiller effect), and
• Living Dead could simply convert would-be fatal damage into healing-absorption, and deals 1 point more damage at the end of its duration (so you die only if left at 1 or, effectively, less HP, rather than costing your healer 100% of your HP's worth of healing just to un-Doom you.

...but that still wouldn't make DRK outright fun or particularly appealing. (Though I would probably enjoy the aforementioned Bloodspiller windows.) And if it comes down to "simple fixes first" or "identity/gameplay first", I'd rather start at the latter. So when something is presented as the easy/obvious fix, with links drawn to other tanks rather than the benefits for DRK's gameplay itself, I tend to be wary of it.
(Again, no longer worried about that from your idea. I'm glad to see you have the gameplay loops at interest in DRK's own right.)

Wow, these people saying its fine for DRK to get their second AoE gcd at an obscenely late level must have not played Stormblood RDM. Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte E.MoulinetE.MoulinetE.Moulinet Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte E.MoulinetE.MoulinetE.Moulinet

/s Very riveting gameplay /s for people that weren't like me that liked that level of mind numbing boredom.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

Wow, these people saying its fine for DRK to get their second AoE gcd at an obscenely late level must have not played Stormblood RDM. Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contre Sixte E.MoulinetE.MoulinetE.Moulinet Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Scatter Contra Sixte E.MoulinetE.MoulinetE.Moulinet

/s Very riveting gameplay /s for people that weren't like me that liked that level of mind numbing boredom.

---

Actually, what we're saying is it's ok to get part two of the AoE combo if there was something you could do with Darkside or with MP while at those early levels that requires literally any brainpower. You are angrily agreeing with a vast majority.

If DRK is last on the damage output among tanks, there will not really be a reason to bring DRK to a raid or even a extreme trial.

Then you have the leveling problem with no AOE combo and you cant count on flood of shadow at the early levels because of the way blood weapon works due to the AOE and unmend being spells so you cant really use it to the maximum but who cares its dungeon content right? The same content where you want people to feel good which gives them confidence to tank future content.

I think all the tanks early kits need to be looked at.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derio

If DRK is last on the damage output among tanks, there will not really be a reason to bring DRK to a raid or even a extreme trial.

---

Depends on how "last" it is.
It is last right now, but by such a slim margin it doesn't matter and in a good comp it will still out DPS the other tanks.

Endwalker was delayed by 2 weeks. Now while I do hope Dark Knight feedback is part of the reason for this, I doubt it actually will be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaduera

Endwalker was delayed by 2 weeks. Now while I do hope Dark Knight feedback is part of the reason for this, I doubt it actually will be.

---

Probably need more time to squeeze in another Paladin self heal /s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaduera

Endwalker was delayed by 2 weeks. Now while I do hope Dark Knight feedback is part of the reason for this, I doubt it actually will be.

---

It's more about technical reasons about the stability of the servers with the expansión more than anything else, they arent going to delay an expansión for 1 job and even less if that Job is DRK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shao32

It's more about technical reasons about the stability of the servers with the expansión more than anything else, they arent going to delay an expansión for 1 job and even less if that Job is DRK.

---

Well, I did say hope, part, and doubt for reasons lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shao32

It's more about technical reasons about the stability of the servers with the expansión more than anything else, they arent going to delay an expansión for 1 job and even less if that Job is DRK.

---

You right. They need the extra time for Egi glamour.

Pretty sure they dropped the line the "class balance was finalized" somewhere in the letter.

So I hope you guys are ready for the Unmend Plunge Salted Earth meta.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Pretty sure they dropped the line the "class balance was finalized" somewhere in the letter.

So I hope you guys are ready for the Unmend Plunge Salted Earth meta.

---

you mean blasting zone hypervelocity, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

you mean blasting zone hypervelocity, right?

---

That's a weird way to spell unlimited Blade works.

I won't deny i feel excluded when Yoship says he and his team are working harder to give the best experience for the end of the storyline and this stage of the game in general and then there is DRK here offering the worst Gampelay experience ever designed in this game without taking consideration about the multiple topics around his mechanics or better say the total lack of it, feels bad.

its Q.A for story not more development time on jobs what ever they have done with them is done. they 100% would have said if it was something about jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shao32

I won't deny i feel excluded when Yoship says he and his team are working harder to give the best experience for the end of the storyline and this stage of the game in general and then there is DRK here offering the worst Gampelay experience ever designed in this game without taking consideration about the multiple topics around his mechanics or better say the total lack of it, feels bad.

---

At this point I just put DRK behind me. We have Reaper, DRK is gone for good. Still, we should keep the threads alive to an extend. For me however I have wasted enough energy on this problem. If they don't want to fix it then we'll have to move on, not much can be done at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shao32

I won't deny i feel excluded when Yoship says he and his team are working harder to give the best experience for the end of the storyline and this stage of the game in general and then there is DRK here offering the worst Gampelay experience ever designed in this game without taking consideration about the multiple topics around his mechanics or better say the total lack of it, feels bad.

---

Yeah I feel that way as well, both as someone whose Dark and healers died in shb. Not to mention all the other sources of frustration that should really have solved by now like mch ping and controllers not having the W cross bar set up by default or indicated

How DRK felt in 3.0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dJt8Dszdnc

How DRK feels in 6.0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ7oqmikZDQ