What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I liked a lot of 5.3, but this always seemed weird to me. It really seems like it was done for the sake of 'rule of cool', rather than because it made sense for the character to actually do that.

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I never really took that part as actually being Emet. I interpreted the Emet shade as some base consciousness within the crystal itself.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I liked a lot of 5.3, but this always seemed weird to me. It really seems like it was done for the sake of 'rule of cool', rather than because it made sense for the character to actually do that.

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Been on a deep dungeon grind while nursing a virus, so I'll hop back in here. I'm fairly certain it's suggested somewhere that he did this primarily to save Elidibus from carrying the burden of their duty alone - being a mishmash of the Amaurotine's and Zodiark's will, it's likely he would have just kept going on until he burned himself out or wound up defeated after who knows how long. From that perspective, it feels quite in character for him to want to save one of his comrades from such a fate, considering his own struggles.

That's not to say 5.3 didn't feel like a rushed and mildly clumsy attempt at matching the same emotional highs as 5.0, and that I don't have any problems with it - but I find that a better interpretation than some bland fanservice grab done for the WoL.

...though after EW, that hardly matters anymore.

"Rule of cool" dictactes every AAA game plot from Square-Enix from the last decade.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

"Rule of cool" dictactes every AAA game plot from Square-Enix from the last decade.

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It really do be like that. This has had the unfortunate side effect of making most of their plots suck.

I would like to hear some peoples examples of good storytelling in rpgs.


I personally still hold FFIX as one the series's best stories told with an interesting and diverse cast, its themes, its world and even its main villian. Nothing in FFXIV can ever surpass it imo

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I personally still hold FFIX as one the series's best stories told with an interesting and diverse cast, its themes, its world and even its main villian. Nothing in FFXIV can ever surpass it imo

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I'd say it's one of the worst, but I really hate how half of the cast becomes irrelevant after Disc 2, and how off the wall nuts it goes.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I'd say it's one of the worst, but I really hate how half of the cast becomes irrelevant after Disc 2, and how off the wall nuts it goes.

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I have no idea what game you were playing because this isnt true at all.

It's been a long time since I played through FFIX. All I really remember about it is I don't like Zidane (In fact, I'd say I border on hating him). Vivi, Garnet, Amarant, and Steiner are my favorite characters. At least from the main party. Blank, Beatrix, Dr. Tott, and Cid from the side bar.

Iirc, my favorite thing about IX's story is the whole Terra consuming other planets and the history behind it inside of that one dungeon with the talking faces and the airship/drone boss. I'd say IX has a lot of good setup, great music, great characters, but I always sorta felt like its follow through was lacking. And I absolutely hate its rendition of the ATB system. Sooo... god awfully... slowwwww.

A lot of its best parts do happen in the first half. The highly memorable Black Waltzes, particularly #1 and #3. Bahamut vs. Alexander. Iirc, Disc 2 ends with Garnet cutting her hair right? God, it's been so long.

Alright forget my personal pick then, I still want to know yours and why

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It's been a long time since I played through FFIX. All I really remember about it is I don't like Zidane (In fact, I'd say I border on hating him). Vivi, Garnet, Amarant, and Steiner are my favorite characters. At least from the main party. Blank, Beatrix, Dr. Tott, and Cid from the side bar.

Iirc, my favorite thing about IX's story is the whole Terra consuming other planets and the history behind it inside of that one dungeon with the talking faces and the airship/drone boss. I'd say IX has a lot of good setup, great music, great characters, but I always sorta felt like its follow through was lacking. And I absolutely hate its rendition of the ATB system. Sooo... god awfully... slowwwww.

A lot of its best parts do happen in the first half. The highly memorable Black Waltzes, particularly #1 and #3. Bahamut vs. Alexander. Iirc, Disc 2 ends with Garnet cutting her hair right? God, it's been so long.

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It ends with the death of the first major antagonist.
I disagree with Ryu's comment that characters become irrelevant with Disc 2, Disc 2 still have a really strong character writing and some of the best scenes of the secondary cast, it's still very much part of the "good first half" of FFIX.
Disc 3 is where the story gets a bit weaker despite a memorable start with Alexander vs Bahamut.

Also yes, despite its faults FFIX is still my favorite out of the entire series. I get why people dislike the second half and the gameplay but it never really bothered me that much. The game has my favorite main cast, one of my favorite villain of the series, a really strong start and my favorite soundtrack of the bunch. (even though I'm a big apologist for FFXIII-2's soundtrack. I know people hate it but I never understood why, it's really good and it's one of the first who dared to explore new sounds and music genre for the series)

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

It ends with the death of the first major antagonist.
I disagree with Ryu's comment that characters become irrelevant with Disc 2, Disc 2 still have a really strong character writing and some of the best scenes of the secondary cast, it's still very much part of the "good first half" of FFIX.
Disc 3 is where the story gets a bit weaker despite a memorable start with Alexander vs Bahamut.

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I just dont necessarily agree with this. Zidane for being the main protag is probably the one with the most personality compared to the previous two in the series. I think what I like the most about him as how he was used to help the other members of the cast grow in their development, and it all came down to when he had to go through his arc towards the end.

The Terra stuff in Disc 3 was just more of the build up with the true nature of the world which I felt it was paced naturally when we spend a good portion of seeing world of Gaia develop in the first 2 discs. Its always a thing with rpgs for it to slowly open up like this and I thought the weird sci-fi yet high fantasy elements with the concept of souls was an interesting idea.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I just dont necessarily agree with this. Zidane for being the main protag is probably the one with the most personality compared to the previous two in the series. I think what I like the most about him as how he was used to help the other members of the cast grow in their development, and it all came down to when he had to go through his arc towards the end.

The Terra stuff in Disc 3 was just more of the build up with the true nature of the world which I felt it was paced naturally when we spend a good portion of seeing world of Gaia develop in the first 2 discs. Its always a thing with rpgs for it to slowly open up like this and I thought the weird sci-fi yet high fantasy elements with the concept of souls was an interesting idea.

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I agree with this take actually, the parts that I found weak are everything between the climatic battle in Alexandria and the trip to Terra (basically the whole Kuja Palace + Four fiends arc), but Terra itself follows one of my favorite trope in JRPGs: when the story brutally shifts the setting and the genre of the work entirely. The end-game revelations are... weird (and decades later I'm still not sure if I like Zidane stealing Vivi's entire plot or not), but it serves to create character moments which made a big impression on my 9 years old self.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

I agree with this take actually, the parts that I found weak are everything between the climatic battle in Alexandria and the trip to Terra (basically the whole Kuja Palace + Four fiends arc), but Terra itself follows one of my favorite trope in JRPGs: when the story brutally shifts the setting and the genre of the work entirely. The end-game revelations are... weird (and decades later I'm still not sure if I like Zidane stealing Vivi's entire plot or not), but it serves to create character moments which made a big impression on my 9 years old self.

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Yeah although I didnt personally see as Zidane stealing Vivi' plot. More so as a payoff to when Zidane needed to take his own advice, it was thanks to his friends whom he helped support them in their arcs to finally help him with his own character arc.

Also that "Youre not Alone" segment with the song and everything was really good for me. EW totally tried to copy it during the last segment in Ultima Thule (including calling the quest the same name as the song!) but it wasnt as well implemented.

With the measure of hindsight, and seeing it put like that, I'd say they used Vivi's plot as a way to basically flesh out Zidane's plot while also keeping the main twist centered around Zidane without giving it away.

The thing that drives me batty about Zidane though, is that he's always put his kindness and faith in others, and the whole, "You're Not Alone" segment is just so drastically out of character for him to me. But not only that, the more you analyze his character, you realize it's more of a contrived feel good character rather than a person (as is that scene). He's supposed to want to get on like a bro from Tantalus, a nobody thief from a band of brothers, but the ending result of his character arc is that he's actually some sorta Kuja 2.0 that's perfected, super dee duper powerful, and that's the actual reason for his extreme competence. He was genetically engineered with it. I don't remember if his memory loss about his origins was explained either, but he's more or less a Superman/Goku style dude.

Granted, main character with an epic tie in to the setting's past has been a staple in FF since FFIV, I just really don't like how it was handled with Zidane.

FFIV had Cecil and Golbez as Brothers, pretty much a straight lifted Darth Vader type thing (Maria from FFII also experienced this but she was technically not THE main character).
FFV had Buttz related to one of the OG Crystal Warriors that initially sealed Exdeath (and this becomes true of the whole party actually).
FFVI had Terra be half Esper and Celes be Esper infused through Magitek (covering both starting characters for WoB and WoR respectively).
FFVII has Cloud's whole amnesia/Soldier/Zack's persona infusion thing.
FFVIII had Squall be related to Ellone and Laguna and such and the Amnesia orphanage run by Edea too.
FFIX has Zidane be Kuja's "brother" as well as a "soul-less" Genome as well as amnesia about it.

So it's par for the course for the series, but I find its delivery in IX to be a tad hamfisted, with the important story beats around it already expressed better by other characters, while it also makes Zidane's whole, "My friends are my strength." thing with Amarant ring hollow.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Too bad you and everyone else in this thread aint no different because I bet you believe Shadowbringers's story was top tier unlike me who believes it wasnt that good. I'm in the Stormblood msq was actually really good crowd. WHERE'S MY ECHO CHAMBER HUH!?

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You can join mine! In my opinion, all the games story from ARR to EW is very average. Stuff thats been seen in anime a million times, some of the plots even bordering fanfiction quality. Will never understand the high praise the games story gets

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I would like to hear some peoples examples of good storytelling in rpgs.


I personally still hold FFIX as one the series's best stories told with an interesting and diverse cast, its themes, its world and even its main villian. Nothing in FFXIV can ever surpass it imo

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I feel like FFIX really is good at creating a diverse cast with a background that keeps you interested. It really nails an aspect of fantasy that nowadays it seems quite hard to reach, which is to keep that feeling of a very different world without throwing tons of forced worldbuilding on you. That's a thing that I forever miss in current FFs: a truly diverse cast. I also enjoyed FFT, I feel like Wiegraf and Delita are amazing characters. It's hard to see if SE is capable of bringing that nuance to a character without making it overboard in XIV.

I'm a fan of Divinity: Original Sin II because it was good at giving a sense of a world that is dying and in despair. And I feel like Bioware did it good sometimes, even with all it's mistakes. Dragon Age: Origins is cliché but a satisfying cliché. Dragon Age II had a lot of faults but it was an RPG that tried to tell the history of a city, which is really ambitious and interesting. Pillars of Eternity is a bit boring when it comes to aesthetic but I also enjoyed the story a lot. Persona 5 is really creative and cute at making you "bond" with your companion.

My favorite RPG probably remains Disco Elysium, it is one of the most interesting texts I've come across _and_ I actually enjoy the lack of combat and how they solved that in a way that the person is interested in the overall game besides the gameplay as well.

I like ARR because of everything other than the key plot points. Though I like the politics drama that happen in 2.1~2.55, even if the payoff for one of them was terrible in 3.0.
I used to hate the 'filler' in ARR, until I finished Endwalker and realised I was sick of having everyone simping hard for my character. Something that both ARR (when not dealing with Primals or operation Archon) and the dreadful, oh so awful, bottom of the barrel worstest game ever with no redeemable features, qualities or ideas at all that was Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 did better than the laughable 6.1 kickoff was giving me the sense that I was, in fact, an adventurer trying to make a name (and gil) for myself. It certainly made the more mundane quests justified, since as far as the NPCs involved were concerned I was a nobody, sometimes a nobody acting self-important.
It's no wonder I only enjoy watching other people stream the first 2/3 of ARR, Heavensward and the Othard portion of Stormblood. I actually enjoyed how leves worked in 1.0, odd dangerous jobs available for adventurers to pick up and gather at the camps to join other adventurers, and despite the lazy design of the maps, the sense of scale and the distance between some of the more interesting and at the time mysterious points of interest added to the sense of adventure. The story was just kind of there (the little which I prefer the tone for over the extremely "popcorn and hugs" style of Endwalker) but it was of little consequence to me compared to the feel of having to earn my own reputation through the hard work. Admittedly I didn't really partake much in the "endgame", including the conclusion of the 1.23 story personally.

I liked IX's plot. It dealt with the subject of Death, Life and its meaning, in a far more nuanced manner than, again, Endwalker. And it did so without killing anyone from the main cast. VI had the guts of giving the antagonist a few tastes of victory and achieve the atmosphere of defeat permeating through the setting.


I just think sometimes it looks as if a lot of XIV players live in this time bubble where only Square-Enix RPGs are worth playing, when they've been nothing but alternating between chasing gameplay trends (as opposed to setting them like they used to) with a coat of visual spectacle as the only real discerning identity, or smaller nostalgia bait projects that while solid games themselves are also not doing anything to push the japanese style RPG sub-genre forward.
Just because a game has a more "anime" artstyle doesn't mean its writing is just as so. Some of the trails games are better written than anything new SE has put out in a long while. Xenoblade games while stained by the fanservice in the second game, touch on subjects and themes that XIV can't touch without treating their audience like little kids that need things spelled out, etc. Persona can get really colorful but it has certainly done more for the sub genre than SE has done too. Both Xenoblade and Persona actually tried to bring needed changes to the gameplay formula of jRPGs too, instead of just giving up and going "fuck it, let's just make them action games with hallway design". Because at least someone in the japanese industry other than From Software knows to look into what is being done in the far more financially successful western style RPGs and adapting (ADAPTING is the keyword here) SOMETHING from them that isn't just 'ooo pretty cinematic'. How come Monolith Soft makes far more immersive worlds than a company with the budget and resources of Square-Enix, who are still designing Midgar like it's a hallway layout straight from PS1?

If more people stopped with the double standards and pre-judgement towards other japanese RPG franchises, the industry there would actually evolve. And it would benefit everyone, Final Fantasy included.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I like ARR because of everything other than the key plot points. Though I like the politics drama that happen in 2.1~2.55, even if the payoff for one of them was terrible in 3.0.

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I also feel like the filler from ARR has a ton of interesting storytelling, although it does suffer from the quest design. The whole politics drama is actually fairly interesting, but they erase most of the consequences of everything as always. Which is also a point that gets me with FFXIV lore: a lot of things happen, all those giant things... and there's little consequence for any of them. I'm not even saying "hahaaaa kill characters!" but any feeling of despair, fear or any kind of dreadness are... cheap, simply put. It is really hard to actually feel threatened in the story, especially a story with so many baits to the point that you can see them coming miles away. I'm not even against the trope "friendship wins everything!", but at this point it is, well, tiring.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

With the measure of hindsight, and seeing it put like that, I'd say they used Vivi's plot as a way to basically flesh out Zidane's plot while also keeping the main twist centered around Zidane without giving it away.

The thing that drives me batty about Zidane though, is that he's always put his kindness and faith in others, and the whole, "You're Not Alone" segment is just so drastically out of character for him to me. But not only that, the more you analyze his character, you realize it's more of a contrived feel good character rather than a person (as is that scene). He's supposed to want to get on like a bro from Tantalus, a nobody thief from a band of brothers, but the ending result of his character arc is that he's actually some sorta Kuja 2.0 that's perfected, super dee duper powerful, and that's the actual reason for his extreme competence. He was genetically engineered with it. I don't remember if his memory loss about his origins was explained either, but he's more or less a Superman/Goku style dude.

Granted, main character with an epic tie in to the setting's past has been a staple in FF since FFIV, I just really don't like how it was handled with Zidane

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False, because you see hints of this side of his character much earlier in the game. Such as when he told that story to Garnet at Black Mage Village where you clearly see that he has more going on with his backstory when he talks about wanting to find where he belongs. Same is when he had doubts with wanting to express his feelings to Garnet in the beginning of Disc 3.

That moment of weakness he had at Pandemonium was after having his mind shattered by Garland even though he tried to debate his purpose and identity. It was only after the people he positively affected helped him back that he learned that he already found his place where he belongs. Zidane is the kind of character who cares about others so much he forgets to care about himself.

The reason why he was so special and superior to Kuja was not only due to being given a stronger soul but had the chance to further temper it by growing amongst the Gaians and forging his relationships and identity.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I would like to hear some peoples examples of good storytelling in rpgs.

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FFX all around, Operation Mihen in particular. Spoilers for the operation:

We were told that SIN can only be stopped by the high summoning, yet here we are. A lot of people carring out a differnt plan and using all they have. Even unlikely forces (Seymour, Kinoc) support their effort. Cue the action music. The battle starts. We get a boss. We fight a tiny bit of SIN. Just something it shed. SIN doesnt really fight back. Then it directs the big laser back. Silence. Bright lights. We wake up surrounded by bodies. The operation failed. We now know the high summoning is the only way. Auron tells us to hurry up. The pilgramidge is still long.

The "twist" in Persona 5. For a little context, without spoiling it: You can guess it early on and after a few hours there is a big reveal for it if you catch it. Even so, the actual twist later on is actually built on top of that. Ok all of that was vague, so here in full spoiler mode:

We know that we will have a traitor in our ranks. We are told that and since most of the game is actually us remembering what happened in the last few months..
So... who could the traitor be? It's obviously Akechi. The guy who kinda hated us and wanted to stop us. The guy who only joined us under a threat of exposing us. The early reveal? He claims to have gotten his powers recently (he says so in November). Back in May he inserted himself into a conversation. He refered to something Morgana said. Morgana can only be understood by people with our power. So he had this power at least since May. So why did he lie? Because he is obviously the "mysterious black figure". The real kicker? It's not about him being the bad guy. It's HOW the good guys stop him: by combining a lot of what they know about the supernatural powers and how they work and tricking him (too long and convoluted for me to even try to explain). THAT is a story

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I have no idea what game you were playing because this isnt true at all.

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The second you enter Disc 3, Freya's role in the story basically dries up and she never grows as a character again. Amarant and Quina never grow to begin with, and while Eiko basically moves the plot along, she doesn't get much development either. They dropped the ball completely with them. Which is sad because Disc 1 and Disc 2 were really good story up to that point. I love the way the world looks, love how unique it is, love the designs...but dear god they fumbled the rest of the story the second you hit Disc 3.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The second you enter Disc 3, Freya's role in the story basically dries up and she never grows as a character again. Amarant and Quina never grow to begin with, and while Eiko basically moves the plot along, she doesn't get much development either. They dropped the ball completely with them. Which is sad because Disc 1 and Disc 2 were really good story up to that point. I love the way the world looks, love how unique it is, love the designs...but dear god they fumbled the rest of the story the second you hit Disc 3.

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Eiko does get her development though. Accepting she's not going to get anything from her crush on Zidane is one of the first things that she goes through in Disc 3. She also pretty much becomes Garnet's sister and ends up finding a new family in Cid and Hilda.

My favorite part of IX is when Steiner trances for Beatrix in Alexandria. Have we had a romantic situation do that yet in XIV? The power of love power boost.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

I also feel like the filler from ARR has a ton of interesting storytelling, although it does suffer from the quest design. The whole politics drama is actually fairly interesting, but they erase most of the consequences of everything as always. Which is also a point that gets me with FFXIV lore: a lot of things happen, all those giant things... and there's little consequence for any of them. I'm not even saying "hahaaaa kill characters!" but any feeling of despair, fear or any kind of dreadness are... cheap, simply put. It is really hard to actually feel threatened in the story, especially a story with so many baits to the point that you can see them coming miles away. I'm not even against the trope "friendship wins everything!", but at this point it is, well, tiring.

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It's this precedent that's giving me very strong doubts that the "great change" supposedly coming to the world as part of the lead-in for 7.x is going to actually amount to much in practice.

The tower business resolving with a whimper felt particularly disappointing after spending months of seeing the things ominously looming over places I frequented.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It's this precedent that's giving me very strong doubts that the "great change" supposedly coming to the world as part of the lead-in for 7.x is going to actually amount to much in practice.

The tower business resolving with a whimper felt particularly disappointing after spending months of seeing the things ominously looming over places I frequented.

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Towers being wrapped up in a single dungeon without so much as a cursory set of scenes with people rejoicing was a big letdown. I mean, at the end of 5.5, didn't Nanamo say that the Eorzean Alliance would marshall forces to contend with the Lunar Primals and anything having to do with the towers?

Something along the lines of, "We're a strong independent Eorzea, we don't need no WoL!" (Actually it was more along the lines of, "We can't rely on you for every nation's defense."

But like so many other potentially interesting, LARGE plot threads, they were flayed out by EW as nothingburger with a side of unsalted, cold fries.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Towers being wrapped up in a single dungeon without so much as a cursory set of scenes with people rejoicing was a big letdown. I mean, at the end of 5.5, didn't Nanamo say that the Eorzean Alliance would marshall forces to contend with the Lunar Primals and anything having to do with the towers?

Something along the lines of, "We're a strong independent Eorzea, we don't need no WoL!" (Actually it was more along the lines of, "We can't rely on you for every nation's defense."

But like so many other potentially interesting, LARGE plot threads, they were flayed out by EW as nothingburger with a side of unsalted, cold fries.

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The towers took 3 dungeons (Paglth'an, Zot, Babel) and were the major story for half of one zone (Thavnair) and all of another (Garlemald). They're also the reason we actually go to Garlemald, and the reason why we're able to get there in relative safety without a Cartenau or Ghimlyt Dark-scale extreme pitched battle. I wouldn't say it resolved with a whimper since it took us hours of gameplay to finish it. After the we defeated Anima and by extension, the towers, Zenos and Fandaniel fired a laser at the frickin' moon, which was kind of a bigger deal at the time since we had to get ready to fight the hijacked God of Darkness trying to bust out of prison.

The towers were written in as a ways to a means to get the plot moving as an excuse to get us to Thavnair and Garlemald, but they still did take up the first 1/4 of the expansion.

All that being said, it would've been nice if there were a cutscene of Eorzean troops fighting for their lives against lunar primals, only for the towers to disappear and they all watch as a beam shoots out and hits the moon. That would've allowed a better transition from one plot to the next and established the greater threat being seen by the whole realm.

There is a lot of "tell, but don't show" that I feel kind of hurt EW's presentation.

Like...it would've been nice to see the burning skies of Thavnair fade and appropriate rejoicing, but all the celebration is reserved strictly for Sharlayan which wasn't even subject to the worst of its effects at the time.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The towers took 3 dungeons

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Pagl'than was tower introduction, not the literal introduction mind you, but the first, "We're going to do something about this." Which turned into a, "Nevermind, it's inconceivable to stop even a single tower at this time." Thus setting the towers up to be an insurmountable, big deal.
Which we didn't actually go into a tower or do anything directly with a tower in that dungeon. We went there to kill Lunar Bahamut (And that is Lunar Ifrit's tower). The cutscenes with Arenvald and Fordola going into and scouting the tower was what did stuff with towers relating to that dungeon.

Cut to Endwalker. Tower of Zot is a dungeon by itself, but it turns out that all ya gotta do is blow up the creamy center. Which the WoL could have done by themselves, albeit with casualties. We solved a tower. Ok. Why did I forget this dungeon? I didn't really, but its biggest actual contribution to the plot is confirming Nadhana's Warding Scales work, as well as cluing in the Scions on to a possible way to take out the rest of the towers. Though the actual reason we gamble on Garlemald is limited resources and the logic of cutting the head off the snake by killing Fandaniel and Zenos, rather than knowing that the towers will all go bye-bye for sure if we do that.

But what of every other tower? Taken out when we take out Anima in Tower of Babil. Right then, in that very second, all of the towers dissipated and were wrapped up. Never was there to be a tower conditions or related fights in Dravanian Forelands, Yanxia, The Lochs, South Shroud, or anywhere else. The first world spanning threat cast to the wayside by the result of one dungeon. Heck, one dungeon boss. Even though all of Anima's tempered in every land were given the order to destroy the world. We only ever hear about the result in the immediate area of Garlemald, and everywhere else doesn't even to seem to have had issues with losing all of those kidnapped to serve as fuel for the towers (because they surely fell and were not caught by Deus Ex Catboi Sage Deluxe Ultra Levitation spell.

More like Convenient Walker.

I remember they hand-waved it by saying something along the lines of the towers in the other regions not disappearing as abruptly as Zot did which somehow allowed them to safely rescue the captives.

I really don't feel like there was enough closure surrounding that or the Final Days, and I was expecting the latter to get some attention through more then the final role quest. The writers really seem like they're in a big hurry to just move on to...whatever the heck it is they have planned after the void filler by cutting off as many plot threads as possible.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I remember they hand-waved it by saying something along the lines of the towers in the other regions not disappearing as abruptly as Zot did which somehow allowed them to safely rescue the captives.

I really don't feel like there was enough closure surrounding that or the Final Days, and I was expecting the latter to get some attention through more then the final role quest. The writers really seem like they're in a big hurry to just move on to...whatever the heck it is they have planned after the void filler by cutting off as many plot threads as possible.

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Ahh, I knew there was a neat little shiny bow on it to hold all that shoddy wrap together.

Somewhat interestingly, the deep dungeon had nothing to do with Endwalker. It was all Allagan lore and Archsage Noah and other Eureka tie in. Kind of refreshing in this lackluster atmosphere the game is in right now. Still gotta beat it two more times to get the cherry on top.

I wonder if they will somehow squeeze another dungeon or instance out of the Crystal Tower. It's crazy how much has been tied back to it and caught up around it.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

There is a lot of "tell, but don't show" that I feel kind of hurt EW's presentation.

Like...it would've been nice to see the burning skies of Thavnair fade and appropriate rejoicing, but all the celebration is reserved strictly for Sharlayan which wasn't even subject to the worst of its effects at the time.

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Agreed. I'm still stuck on the absolute tonal whiplash that is the Loporrits. They literally Jar Jar Binksed us. Any good will that EW earned with me as a player went down the toliet right then and there.

I quite like the Loporrits. Now, I mean. They did smack me in the face right after Zodiark, which I disliked. But other than soberly mentioning that I think that was a bad moment, I can't really bring myself to get hung up over it, lol.

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

I quite like the Loporrits. Now, I mean. They did smack me in the face right after Zodiark, which I disliked. But other than soberly mentioning that I think that was a bad moment, I can't really bring myself to get hung up over it, lol.

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You know you can quote people, right?

I think up until that point, it was getting good, and then it just fell off a cliff. And even after it climbed out of that cliff, the spector of it lingered way too long. They don't bother me now because the story was so saturated with them after they went away and came back with their spaceship. But again, that initial Jar Jar Binks level of shock and cringe is hard to shake off. I wanted to punt those things more than praise them. Even now, Endwalker as a whole is meh.

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

Agreed. I'm still stuck on the absolute tonal whiplash that is the Loporrits. They literally Jar Jar Binksed us. Any good will that EW earned with me as a player went down the toliet right then and there.

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In all honesty, I'm always surprised to hear about someone being deeply bothered by the Loporrits. After witnessing Zenos and Amon appear right at the climax of what had previously been the first genuinely interesting part of the story since 5.0 and soak up what was left of the faceless and thoroughly dehumanised Zodiark soup like a day old crouton, and then realising this was the writer's resolution to the story's most important, decade old plot point, I didn't have much left in the way of a reaction to give anymore. By the time we reached the Loporrits, it was more or less a case of "Ah. Rabbits. Hm. All right then."

Speaking of the moon, I was briefly pondering on this the other day, and was trying to make sense of a) Hydaelyn giving the Sundered a way out via the moon without pausing to consider offering her brethren the same solution and b) the logic in trying to outrun something that ultimately aims to consume the entire universe anyway.

My only conclusion was wishing I could go back to before I contemplated buying this game and living in blissful ignorance of how it all ended. I don't know what's worse, the general brain itch it continues to give me whenever I think about it or the unintentional yet inevitable sense of gaslighting whenever I venture near the community and have to hear about how wonderful and moving the writing was.

It certainly moved me away from the game, I suppose...

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

Agreed. I'm still stuck on the absolute tonal whiplash that is the Loporrits. They literally Jar Jar Binksed us. Any good will that EW earned with me as a player went down the toliet right then and there.

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Same! Can't believe that people are so in love with the damn things... They contribute precisely nothing of worth to the story and all they serve is to absolutely wreck the intended world ending tone of the story. But there's people who think FFXIII had a good story (let's fight against our fate by doing the exact thing our fate has preordained us to do and then win anyway because friendship magic, even though we all practically hate each other! and a whole bunch of other bollocks) so the concept of a well told story really is alien to some people.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

In all honesty, I'm always surprised to hear about someone being deeply bothered by the Loporrits. After witnessing Zenos and Amon appear right at the climax of what had previously been the first genuinely interesting part of the story since 5.0 and soak up what was left of the faceless and thoroughly dehumanised Zodiark soup like a day old crouton, and then realising this was the writer's resolution to the story's most important, decade old plot point, I didn't have much left in the way of a reaction to give anymore. By the time we reached the Loporrits, it was more or less a case of "Ah. Rabbits. Hm. All right then."

Speaking of the moon, I was briefly pondering on this the other day, and was trying to make sense of a) Hydaelyn giving the Sundered a way out via the moon without pausing to consider offering her brethren the same solution and b) the logic in trying to outrun something that ultimately aims to consume the entire universe anyway.

My only conclusion was wishing I could go back to before I contemplated buying this game and living in blissful ignorance of how it all ended. I don't know what's worse, the general brain itch it continues to give me whenever I think about it or the unintentional yet inevitable sense of gaslighting whenever I venture near the community and have to hear about how wonderful and moving the writing was.

It certainly moved me away from the game, I suppose...

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I feel roughly the same. Sure the Lopporits were an utterly jarring tonal shift from "we just slapped the main antagonist of 10 years around like a ragdoll while he wasn't even awake and supposedly unleashed the end of the universe" to "wacky bunny people that look suspiciously merchandisable". But the incredibly botched conclusion to Zodiark's "arc" pretty much drained all interest I had in the MSQ out of me for a long time to the point that I couldn't even hate them, I just felt entirely indifferent.


The fact that MSQ trials are incredibly easy also didn't exactly help with making that "climactic" fight feel any less disappointing. That is however an issue that I personally have with every big MSQ trial, I need to pretend that the extreme version is the canon fight to make it feel impactful.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Speaking of the moon, I was briefly pondering on this the other day, and was trying to make sense of a) Hydaelyn giving the Sundered a way out via the moon without pausing to consider offering her brethren the same solution and b) the logic in trying to outrun something that ultimately aims to consume the entire universe anyway.

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Just imagine a version where the Sundered escaped to the moon. They drink tea and chat with the Loporrits about their new home, watching the "star" (aka planet - why are we calling that multiverse planet thing a star again?) explode. Savingway comes up to them and says: "You are all save here!" Smiling from ear to ear. Then they all get blasted with the moon by the Endsinger. The End.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Speaking of the moon, I was briefly pondering on this the other day, and was trying to make sense of a) Hydaelyn giving the Sundered a way out via the moon without pausing to consider offering her brethren the same solution and b) the logic in trying to outrun something that ultimately aims to consume the entire universe anyway.

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My concern is why would your prison for Zodiark also be the place to house your contingency plan. Surely the Aether released by Zodiark after his defeat would have had SOME effect on the moon considering that his whole purpose was to bring about change. That just seemed like something that could very easily backfire, even with the Watcher/Loporrits supposedly monitoring Zodiark and the Ascians.

I am a latecomer to these discussions, I have never posted in the Forum before. But given the continuous proclamation that goes like "95% of players love it, who are you to object", I feel like it's my duty to detail my dissatisfaction, lest the fact that I am still paying my monthly subscription is taken by the developers as I am loving it.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

It's weird to me that in an expansion that lauds the idea of never giving up hope, that even the "situations of despair" those other societies had fallen to--that the Scions attempt to answer in their sacrifices--there still might have been a way for them to live on and find happiness, ONLY the Ancients are subject to this bizarre, "nope, chuck them in the trash, they were done, the moment you go into a tailspin your plane is doomed to crash so you might as well let go of the controls entirely" reaction. I would put forth even if the Ancients were about to make a horrible mistake, they still had the right to MAKE that mistake. FFXIV is a game that puts forth the idea that as long as you don't give up, you can atone for horrible things. I believe even the Ancients at their worst could have still had better days ahead of them, just like every other single person or society we see in the game, including those in the Dead Ends.

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This is exactly how I feel about the situation regarding the Ancients. Somehow they are singled out as the ONE group that doesn't deserve to hope, to live on. Somehow they alone deserved to be wiped out, everybody else deserve to persevere, but nope, not the Ancients. The most hilarious thing is that some people keep dismissing these opinions regarding Venat as "Ancient lovers just want to hate Venat". It couldn't be further from the truth in my case. Back in Shadowbringer, I was exactly those that want to stick game texts to the screen of those who couldn't stop gushing about how "perfect" the Ancient society was, so that they can properly read them. And yet here I am, despairing at people's ability to be consistent. Regardless of how "imperfect" that society was, regardless of what flaws they had, declaring that they deserved to be wiped out by one woman flies in the face of the morals of Shadowbringer.

5.0: No matter how imperfect, or flawed, people deserve to live.
6.0: lol nope, this particular group deserved to be wiped out for their flaws.

Seriously.

And the sad thing is I adored Venat so much at the beginning of Elpis. She's portrayed as this unconventional, but brave, kind, and adventurous woman who loves people. I wish I can get that Venat back.

[Edit] I forgot, I agreed completely with people that just by wiping her memory together with Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus, a lot of this could already be prevented. Or just not do this time-travel at all, use the Echo! I don't know why they chose the worse possible way to go about it.