I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

You forgot Toxikon

It really is hilarious (in a bad way) that the healer square keeps pointing us to is literally the simplest of the 4 healers from a DPS perspective by quite a wide margin

Like at least WHM has POM and downtime misery optimisation as well as trying to make assize also function as a healing tool despite using it off CD, SGE has what, press 2 phlegma in burst window for someone else’s rDPS

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Meanwhile Sage has less DPS abilities than every other healer somehow:

WHM: Glare/Holy, Dia, Afflatus Misery, Assize, Presence of Mind
SCH: Broil/Art of War, Biolysis, Energy Drain, Chain Stratagem
AST: Malefic/Gravtiy, Combust, Earthly Star, Minor Arcana, Draw & Play, Divination, Astrodyne
SGE: Dosis/Dyskrasia, Eukrasian Dosis, Phlegma

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regarding AST- well technically correct if are counting keystrokes, otherwise "Draw & Play" aren't useful in and of themselves so I wouldn't add in 'draw and play" for AST. In addition, Minor Arcana is subject to RNG (only Lord of Crowns is a DPS skill) , and Astrodyne is also subject to RNG.

Okay, I went back and edited that because someone is likely going to correct me and say 'well, yes- but you're going to play a card", which is quite correct.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

You forgot Toxikon

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Think they skipped it on account of it being scuffed Ruin 2/being damage neutral to Dosis, they also left Ruin 2 off the list, we wouldn't consider Macro or Pneuma for the 'damage neutral' reason either

But even if we did consider Toxikon, it's still one less button for SGE than the next lowest (WHM). Eukrasia was meant to be a way to save hotbar space so we could effectively get more actions with less button realestate used, but they didn't make much/any real use of it. Just 'it's reverse Emergency Tactics', turning our Succor into a shield variant. Why can't we have, eg, Eukrasian Phlegma, which deals some damage and applies the DOT to all enemies within range, but for a reduced duration/with reduced potency? So if we have Phlegma as 660 atm, E.Phlegma could deal say 200, plus 15s of DOT to each enemy, being 375, meaning a total of 575 per enemy. Less than the current Phlegma, but enough to be a gain on 2 targets and above if they live for that long? Why can't Toxikon be more interesting than just 'scuffed Ruin 2'? Why can't Pepsis be more interesting than 'wonky backwards Emergency Tactics', etc

Yeah when you look at buttons you functionally press in a normal situation SGE won’t press toxicon, SCH won’t press ruin 2 and pnuema/macrocosmos are basically just oGCD heals since you can’t optimise them at all

It’s really only broil, ED, chain, biolysis, dosis, e dosis, phlegma, malefic, combust, cards, minor arcana, star, astrodyne, glare, dia, assize, lily’s POM and assize that matter and I’m pushing it with the DOT’s since you can’t optimise the DOT’s in any way (star and assize only really get a pass because they can be optimised on the heal front so you aren’t wasting the heal front even though you have to use them off CD)

Isn't Toxicon technically a DPS loss since you need to press Eukrasia and Diagnosis whereas Dosis just needs 1 GCD? I mean sure, if you need to use Eukrasian Diagnosis it won't be as much of a DPS loss in single target, but still Eukrasia is a GCD even if it's fast

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Isn't Toxicon technically a DPS loss since you need to press Eukrasia and Diagnosis whereas Dosis just needs 1 GCD? I mean sure, if you need to use Eukrasian Diagnosis it won't be as much of a DPS loss in single target, but still Eukrasia is a GCD even if it's fast

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A toxicon generated in uptime is a 330 potency DPS loss yes, unless it’s countered by a movement that cannot be slidecasted and you have none of your 3 initial toxicon stacks remaining, so it’s neutral against spending a GCD casting nothing

Toxicon generated in downtime is neutral against dosis

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Isn't Toxicon technically a DPS loss since you need to press Eukrasia and Diagnosis whereas Dosis just needs 1 GCD? I mean sure, if you need to use Eukrasian Diagnosis it won't be as much of a DPS loss in single target, but still Eukrasia is a GCD even if it's fast

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Yes, you lose one Dosis of damage per Toxikon you prep and fire during uptime. If you need to shield, you shield, as is our job as a healer, but ideally you would avoid preparing Toxikon charges in uptime, instead putting shields out during downtimes where they are 'free'

If you want to get hypertechnical, I guess it could be argued that you lose slightly more than one Dosis worth of damage depending on spellspeed, as Eukrasia/E.Diagnosis' recasts are not affected by spellspeed, making them always 2.50 combined, whereas your general recast time (and therefore Dosis) might be 2.48 or 2.43 or whatever (depends what kind of spellspeed SE lumped on the gear)

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Think they skipped it on account of it being scuffed Ruin 2/being damage neutral to Dosis, they also left Ruin 2 off the list, we wouldn't consider Macro or Pneuma for the 'damage neutral' reason either

But even if we did consider Toxikon, it's still one less button for SGE than the next lowest (WHM). Eukrasia was meant to be a way to save hotbar space so we could effectively get more actions with less button realestate used, but they didn't make much/any real use of it. Just 'it's reverse Emergency Tactics', turning our Succor into a shield variant. Why can't we have, eg, Eukrasian Phlegma, which deals some damage and applies the DOT to all enemies within range, but for a reduced duration/with reduced potency? So if we have Phlegma as 660 atm, E.Phlegma could deal say 200, plus 15s of DOT to each enemy, being 375, meaning a total of 575 per enemy. Less than the current Phlegma, but enough to be a gain on 2 targets and above if they live for that long? Why can't Toxikon be more interesting than just 'scuffed Ruin 2'? Why can't Pepsis be more interesting than 'wonky backwards Emergency Tactics', etc

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^ This.

Toxikon is the Stormblood Lilies of EW. Counting it as an actual part of your DPS gameplay is misleading.

As for Eukrasian Phlegma... In my world, Kardia effects don't exist on standard spells and only apply to Eukrasian spells, in which Phlegma eats a chunk of MP to deal slightly less damage and apply a barrier to your Kardion target.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

A toxicon generated in uptime is a 330 potency DPS loss yes, unless it’s countered by a movement that cannot be slidecasted and you have none of your 3 initial toxicon stacks remaining, so it’s neutral against spending a GCD casting nothing

Toxicon generated in downtime is neutral against dosis

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Actually, say you're in a movement scenario where you need to lose 1 GCD's worth of casting. Generating Toxikon with a Eukrasian Diagnosis/Prognosis is DPS neutral with just not casting something at all.

Dosis + Dosis + Dosis = 990 potency
Dosis + Dosis + Nothing = 660 potency
Dosis + Barrier + Toxikon = 660 potency

Toxikon is only a gain if you're forced to move continuously for more than 2.5 seconds, which is exceedingly rare. And you have to challenge that with the potential to cast Eukrasian Dosis or Phlegma instead. If you have a Phlegma charge you can burn, that is significantly better. Overwriting your Eukrasian Dosis is also better if the duration of your DOT is less than 15 seconds remaining.

^unless I’m misinterpreting you that’s exactly what I said

If you have a scenario when the alternative is just dropping a cast then toxicon is DPS neutral

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

^unless I’m misinterpreting you that’s exactly what I said

If you have a scenario when the alternative is just dropping a cast then toxicon is DPS neutral

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My mistake then. I read "Spending a GCD Casting Nothing" weirdly.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

regarding AST- well technically correct if are counting keystrokes, otherwise "Draw & Play" aren't useful in and of themselves so I wouldn't add in 'draw and play" for AST. In addition, Minor Arcana is subject to RNG (only Lord of Crowns is a DPS skill) , and Astrodyne is also subject to RNG.

Okay, I went back and edited that because someone is likely going to correct me and say 'well, yes- but you're going to play a card", which is quite correct.

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The thing that I try to factor in when I consider how many tools do each Healer actually have for their offensive gameplay, I try to think with the mindset of "what tools are you always going to press regardless of the situation?" For example, regardless of whether you get Lord of Crowns or Lady of Crowns during Minor Arcana, you are still going to use it every minute on cooldown. Maybe you try to save the Lady to heal with in some circumstances, but you're trying to use that on cooldown. Similarly, card plays and Astrodyne are things you want to use as often as possible, though in those examples there's more emphasis on using them during burst windows when possible. But even that judgement I use doesn't perfectly describe every situation.

For example, do we count Draw and Play as separate since they're different actions? I listed them as "Draw & Play" because I personally consider them to be the same action, just one continuous action over 2 weaves rather than a single button press. There's also an argument for considering Afflatus Solace/Rapture since you have to use them in order to get Afflatus Misery. I definitely wouldn't count them as two different actions in the way that Presence of Mind and Dia are different, but I can see an argument for considering them as one extra part of your gameplay. Because what I care about are aspects of your gameplay that are always relevant, regardless of whether you're soloing the MSQ, in group content going smoothly, or in group content going horribly.

As Roe mentioned, I ignored Toxikon because it's a disgrace, and Ruin II because it's basically worthless. But I would've considered ARR Ruin II as a noteworthy action to reference. If they had kept that consistent for Scholar, or in other words Broil IV and Ruin II would look like this:

Broil IV: 295 potency, 400 MP cost, 2 second cast time
Ruin II: 295 potency, 800 MP cost, instant cast

I would consider Ruin II separately, because even though the DPS is the same, there's a lot of opportunities to take advantage of Ruin II in all forms of content. While you certainly could have situations in which you aren't casting it, because it offers a lot of flexibility and choice, I think that holds value for Scholar's gameplay. Sadly it's been gutted repeatedly for no good god damn reason, so alas, it got ignored from my list.

But yeah, TLDR, I was counting actions that you can depend on using as often as they allow, generally. There are some actions that are debatable I think, but Sage loses to all three other healers regardless.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

As Roe mentioned, I ignored Toxikon because it's a disgrace, and Ruin II because it's basically worthless.

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Can you imagine in a world where we had Toxikon I and Toxikon II as 2 separate skills in the natural rotation?
Toxikon I can hold up to 3 charges, each charge has the potency equivalent to [Dosis], generates 1 per 20 seconds (same time as your addersgall generation), and adds 1 charge to Toxikon II. No longer generated from shields breaking.
Toxikon II can hold up to 3 charges, each charge = 0.75x Dosis potency, oGCD ability, generates upon shields breaking. Then using Toxikon II expends all charges and triggers Kardia based on the number of charges.

Suddenly E. Prognosis / E. Diagnosis integrates well with Kardia as a healing mechanism, and you get Toxikon I + Toxikon II interaction. Toxikon I becomes both a mobility tool and a tool you use in your rotation flexibly.

The addition of one extra skill gives so much more adaptability with Kardia and highlights the core feature of Sage without overcomplicating the basic flow of the "rotation". Add a couple more DPS skills but styled to also work with Kardia such as "Inner Release Toxikon I" + "Infuriate Phlegma" and it'll be on par to a healer's version of tank dps rotation.

Speaking of which, I just realized if you renamed Infuriate to Dykrasia, you'd literally get WAR's Decimate/Chaotic Cyclone become SGE's Phlegma / Dykrasian Phlegma.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Can you imagine in a world where we had Toxikon I and Toxikon II as 2 separate skills in the natural rotation?

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I'm onboard with this solely for the fact that it'd mean we get the superior animation (the one they featured in a trailer) back

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I'm onboard with this solely for the fact that it'd mean we get the superior animation (the one they featured in a trailer) back

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I’m still more interested in the crit healer idea, where Toxikon is OGCD like it is everywhere else in the game. But for that, I would totally be fine reverting to regular Toxikon and repurposing Toxikon II as a different animation, perhaps Paroxysm.

We could certainly use a bit more spice, I admit...

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I’m still more interested in the crit healer idea, where Toxikon is OGCD like it is everywhere else in the game. But for that, I would totally be fine reverting to regular Toxikon and repurposing Toxikon II as a different animation, perhaps Paroxysm.

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I've said for a while, I think the best place for Tox 1's animation is actually to replace Phlegma with it, since that's our hardest hit, so it just makes sense to me that the move used in the trailer would be just that, our hardest hit. Phlegma's animation could then be moved over to, idk, Eukrasian Phlegma, which could have whatever effect the devs decide is a good one for it. I'd personally go for 'applies DOT in AOE' but maybe there's something else it could do

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I've said for a while, I think the best place for Tox 1's animation is actually to replace Phlegma with it, since that's our hardest hit, so it just makes sense to me that the move used in the trailer would be just that, our hardest hit. Phlegma's animation could then be moved over to, idk, Eukrasian Phlegma, which could have whatever effect the devs decide is a good one for it. I'd personally go for 'applies DOT in AOE' but maybe there's something else it could do

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Eh, I do like Toxikon’s animation, but I don’t really think it holds the impact to be a heavy hit. The way it looks makes much more sense for a fast hit rather than a strong one. That said I certainly wouldn’t say no to an animation that held more impact, but followed the same concept of bombarding the enemy with shots. And I do really like phlegma’s animation.

I’ve talked about reworking Pneuma into a DPS action that enables a heal for you to use later to allow it to comfortably be bused no a much shorter cooldown. I had it enabling a DPS neutral cast of your GCD Panhaima basically. I would like to see Soma be added, which is the “body” to Pneuma's “spirit”, and I set it up to also be an AOE that is more frequent and enables a free use of regular GCD Haima. I could see an animation like that used for Soma.

Endwalker feels like it is / was a bad expansion for the game in general. It's not the same kind of bad as Stormblood but it has a lot of issues with how it is handling content and pushing certain content that really wasn't built to support the kind of people playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Endwalker feels like it is / was a bad expansion for the game in general. It's not the same kind of bad as Stormblood but it has a lot of issues with how it is handling content and pushing certain content that really wasn't built to support the kind of people playing the game.

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It's built for high turn over rate of new players who buy skip potions, get bored after a couple of months of subs then leave. It's not built for long term players

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Endwalker feels like it is / was a bad expansion for the game in general. It's not the same kind of bad as Stormblood but it has a lot of issues with how it is handling content and pushing certain content that really wasn't built to support the kind of people playing the game.

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What kinda “bad” was stormblood

Outside of ala mhigo not really getting enough time to shine SB is still the best expansion we have ever gotten

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

What kinda “bad” was stormblood

Outside of ala mhigo not really getting enough time to shine SB is still the best expansion we have ever gotten

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I think the most common reasoning of why SB was "bad" is that there was a static meta comp for the entire expansion. Although that doesn't mean that balance was bad, all jobs were able to clear content after all.

Honestly, I didn't actually see any PF lock out any jobs aside from the log run PFs who lock in DRG/NIN/BRD.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I think the most common reasoning of why SB was "bad" is that there was a static meta comp for the entire expansion. Although that doesn't mean that balance was bad, all jobs were able to clear content after all.

Honestly, I didn't actually see any PF lock out any jobs aside from the log run PFs who lock in DRG/NIN/BRD.

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It's ironic the amount of people that complain about something that they never dealt with. It's like the boogeyman. Literally fabricating stories about how impossible it was to get a raid group as a MNK or MCH or something even though that never actually happened outside of very extreme fringe circumstances where someone making a PF had no idea what they were doing to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I think the most common reasoning of why SB was "bad" is that there was a static meta comp for the entire expansion. Although that doesn't mean that balance was bad, all jobs were able to clear content after all.

Honestly, I didn't actually see any PF lock out any jobs aside from the log run PFs who lock in DRG/NIN/BRD.

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Stormblood's sins were more around the story and Zenos not being a particularly compelling villain. Content wise the expansion was fine outside of what you mentioned and possibly heaven on high being a bit of a hit or miss thing. There were more people back then who needed deep dungeons as an alternative for leveling alts.

This expansion it was the heavy push on savage and ultimate content with the new mits matters design. For people who were already doing ultimates and savage before Shadowbringers the content was probably fine, but the crowd of people that got into savage during Shadowbringers and didn't really have the time to do ultimate, and have lower coordination than the main crowd, it was pretty crushing as there really wasn't much they can do outside of it. Variant dungeons are over very fast, the new deep dungeon only works for levels 81-90 and a lot of people already had the jobs they wanted leveled, cross server travel plus mobile like gameplay of island sanctuary limited that content, so all that was left was heavy grind content like mount farming or pvp.

The relic also doesn't make use of older content to keep it fresh and is primarily using the mid tier tomestone, which outside of hunts comes mostly from the roulette. This also made upgrading crafted gear using the "rain" items cumbersome as the same resource being used for the upgraded crafting gear is getting used for the relic.

If you want a more complex dps rotation then go play dps, literally know your role. If the argument was you want more support/healing responsibilities then I think you would find more support

oh boy, and the endless cycle starts once again...

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Originally Posted by Nobuyuki_Sanada

If you want a more complex dps rotation then go play dps, literally know your role. If the argument was you want more support/healing responsibilities then I think you would find more support

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Question number (1) I'm genuinely curious, did you happen to read any part of this discussion, or did you just read the thread title- which is misleading- before adding your comment regarding "complex dps rotation"?

Question number (2) why or where do you feel that you need more support/ healing responsibilities, and can you provide examples?

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I believe currently this is the most pressing issue in the entire game that needs to be addressed above everything else. That is my feedback.

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the alternative is have even the most casual of content (dungeons) have just outright white knuckle heal/mit checks. But, i really dont think that would fly with a lot of the more casual player base, hard enough to get some tanks to use cooldowns

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Originally Posted by Nobuyuki_Sanada

If you want a more complex dps rotation then go play dps, literally know your role. If the argument was you want more support/healing responsibilities then I think you would find more support

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Do you really think they would make more damage happen after what happened with Abyssos? In regards to support, what about when they took away disable from the astro and virus away from sch? How about when they made all the cards damage based and when they took away Selene's actions?

Oh boy, yet another "go play DPS" argument. Welp, you heard it here folks, guess we should remove all those damage tools from tanks too, how dare they be able to have a compelling DPS rotation, they should know their role. Oh, sorry Dancer, Curing Waltz is for healers, you should know your role before you start doing some healing. Magick Barrier? Tut tut, you should know better Red Mage. Look at you, with your Vercure and Verraise and Embolden, what are you doing with those, trying to be a healer and off-load your DPS to everyone else? Don't you know you're a DPS?

Try to actually address the complaints people have and understand the topic, maybe then you'll understand why healers are asking for extra DPS tools instead of being dismissive.

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

Oh boy, yet another "go play DPS" argument. Welp, you heard it here folks, guess we should remove all those damage tools from tanks too, how dare they be able to have a compelling DPS rotation, they should know their role. Oh, sorry Dancer, Curing Waltz is for healers, you should know your role before you start doing some healing. Magick Barrier? Tut tut, you should know better Red Mage. Look at you, with your Vercure and Verraise and Embolden, what are you doing with those, trying to be a healer and off-load your DPS to everyone else? Don't you know you're a DPS?

Try to actually address the complaints people have and understand the topic, maybe then you'll understand why healers are asking for extra DPS tools instead of being dismissive.

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I know for WHM one thing I miss is Aero II, but I'm a strange person that likes flavor over practicality. Healers for the most part feel more like WoW classes that are based on priority. Like hypothetically you always want to keep your Dia up on whatever you're dpsing, but as a healer we can't control Leeroy Jenkins or his cousins rushing in and taking damage because they got bopped under a pillar and then squashed like a bug.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Question number (1) I'm genuinely curious, did you happen to read any part of this discussion, or did you just read the thread title- which is misleading- before adding your comment regarding "complex dps rotation"?

Question number (2) why or where do you feel that you need more support/ healing responsibilities, and can you provide examples?

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1. I read the OP and responded, did I read all 80 pages, nope. I left my feedback for the discussion topic, if I wanted to address any specific comment I would quote it as I done here
2. Because the role is Healer, if I wanted to do damage I would play dps, I'm not playing a different role to have the same experience as another. I'm not saying I currently need more healing support, I'm saying I wish I did so I could perform the responsibilities my role was meant for. It sucks playing a healer and having nothing to heal so I get stuck having to dps. My solution is to make healing more interesting and have fights make me do it more, not make the shit I don't wanna do (dps) more prevalent.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

I know for WHM one thing I miss is Aero II, but I'm a strange person that likes flavor over practicality. Healers for the most part feel more like WoW classes that are based on priority. Like hypothetically you always want to keep your Dia up on whatever you're dpsing, but as a healer we can't control Leeroy Jenkins or his cousins rushing in and taking damage because they got bopped under a pillar and then squashed like a bug.

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My personal preference for healer DPS is more priority-based as well rather than a strict rotation, makes it easy to interrupt the damage flow with a heal or two. I already have moments on RDM where I suddenly need to Verraise healers, but I'm stuck in the middle of my melee burst, healers should ultimately try to avoid that in their designs, and I think procs, gauges, extra DoTs, buffs, etc. can fill that dead Glaroilificosis spam nicely without impacting on healing ability. Healers mostly just need flexibility in their kit rather than strict combos and use-it-now actions.

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

Oh boy, yet another "go play DPS" argument. Welp, you heard it here folks, guess we should remove all those damage tools from tanks too, how dare they be able to have a compelling DPS rotation, they should know their role. Oh, sorry Dancer, Curing Waltz is for healers, you should know your role before you start doing some healing. Magick Barrier? Tut tut, you should know better Red Mage. Look at you, with your Vercure and Verraise and Embolden, what are you doing with those, trying to be a healer and off-load your DPS to everyone else? Don't you know you're a DPS?

Try to actually address the complaints people have and understand the topic, maybe then you'll understand why healers are asking for extra DPS tools instead of being dismissive.

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Lol read your argument. Dancer's aren't bitching about only having 1 heal, Redmage's having multiple support abilities is a huge problem atm, literally making other casters not wanted by raiders because they can't do what red mages do. I'm not being dismissive I'm trying to explain that your real issue is with being bored not that your not doing enough damage. Instead of making the class fun by turning it into a dps, make the act of healing actually fun. Exactly how idk I can think of examples but the idea isn't ludacris and is definitely possible. Fill the free time with healing not dps, I want combo heals, synergizing heals, proccing heals, and for any of that to be fun we need more and more frequent damage.

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Originally Posted by Nobuyuki_Sanada

My solution is to make healing more interesting and have fights make me do it more, not make the shit I don't wanna do (dps) more prevalent.

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Unfortunately, the Venn diagram of 'amount of healing that will satisfy seasoned healer mains' and 'amount of healing that is still clearable by less skilled/newer-to-role healer players' are two distinct, non overlapping circles. There's no magical 'midpoint' where we get engaging healing gameplay as someone with any degree of competence, without it causing complaints for being 'too hard'. The usual response for this dilemma is 'well, obviously the casual content wouldn't be changed as much/at all, so the casual players don't get walled', but I'd argue (and have for several months, and will for several more most likely) that 'any solution for this problem which affects only a portion of the game's content (that is, only Savage and Ultimate, or Extreme trial and above), is not a solution, it's a bandaid'. I want to feel engaged in ANY content I play as a healer, even something like EX roulette or Maps. So excluding those pieces of content from being engaging for the sake of the casual players, isn't going to make my experience of capping tomes more 'fun and engaging'.

So any solution that would be acceptable, has to be in some way that is 'optional', as it were. Something that, should you mess it up due to lack of experience with the role, you will not cause a wipe or such. And 'more intricacy in the DPS rotation' is one of the simplest ways to do that, hence why people ask for it in such numbers. We aren't asking for DPS level complexity, most I've seen ask for either Tank level gameplay, or just 'can we have what we had in SB back'. It also would open design space for the devs to add new moves, interactions, mechanics to the jobs. We got 'We didn't really know what to do with SCH' this expansion, which led to Expedient. Would they have said they didn't know what to do with SCH, if they hadn't removed the possibility of 'here's a new action that deals damage' from the entire role? Or the possibility of interactions like 'Each time your DOTs deal damage, they generate Fairy Gauge', or 'Each time you deal damage with a WHM damage skill, you generate points in a new gauge, and at 50 gauge you can cast a massive AOE heal move'?

This topic has arisen more times than can be counted, and every time, it's the same premise, and the same rebuttals. It's like a pantomime

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Originally Posted by Nobuyuki_Sanada

I'm trying to explain that your real issue is with being bored not that your not doing enough damage.

Fill the free time with healing not dps, I want combo heals, synergizing heals, proccing heals, and for any of that to be fun we need more and more frequent damage.

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It has nothing to do with how MUCH damage we deal, and everything to do with HOW that damage is dealt. If we got a more involved rotation patched in, and our DPS didn't change at all, that's the ideal solution IMO. I don't care how much damage I'm doing, I care that I'm doing it by pressing Glare 160 times over the course of the fight.

The combo heal, proc heal etc sounds good on paper, but paper is as far as it goes before hitting issues. Example, people get annoyed about Minor Arcana. A 50% 'proc' on either a heal or damage, the one thing we don't want on healing tools is for them to be unreliable on whether they're available or not. We criticized Bole for AST because of this, a raid mit isn't exactly great if we can't guarantee it's up at the right time. Combo heals would be less of an issue, but I think that the reason that this kind of stuff can't work is because the game's just not built for it. We have far too much AOE healing potential. It works in something like WOW because their AOEs are all gated by CDs or are horribly inefficient (Holy Nova heals for almost nothing, Chain Heal is very Mana hungry and targetcapped, etc), we can throw out 3200 potency of healing (Medica 1) every 2.5s, and that's our most 'inefficient' healing option, Solace is free, Asylum is free, Lilybell is free, the other healers have other free tools.

Edit: Combo heals/proc heals actually already exist, now that I think about it. Cure1 has a chance to combo into Cure2, making it free. Cure2 used to have a chance to combo into Cure3, halving it's MP cost (very strange). Benefic has a chance to combo into Benefic 2, making it guaranteed to crit. We do not ever take advantage of any of these on purpose, because they're GCD heals and they suck. If we need to heal with a GCD heal, rather than Cure 1-ing to try for the free Cure 2, we'd just use the Cure2 twice as it's more healing power for the 2 GCDs it costs, and we don't care about the mana efficiency or lack thereof because MP management is apparently not a thing anymore

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Originally Posted by Nobuyuki_Sanada

Lol read your argument. Dancer's aren't bitching about only having 1 heal, Redmage's having multiple support abilities is a huge problem atm, literally making other casters not wanted by raiders because they can't do what red mages do.

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You haven't seen many red mages then; many are annoyed at the 'rez tax' we have that makes SMN and BLM more appealing, so that makes no sense. The point I'm making here is that the trinity isn't strict, DPS and Tanks CAN do things outside their role for the sake of job variety. Otherwise we may as well have only 5 jobs for the 5 roles.

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Originally Posted by Nobuyuki_Sanada

I'm not being dismissive I'm trying to explain that your real issue is with being bored not that your not doing enough damage.

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Disingenuous, no one actually cares about the actual DPS number, you could half it and no one would care outside soloing, I care about making sure I'm not bored out of my skull by spamming only 1 button.

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Originally Posted by Nobuyuki_Sanada

Instead of making the class fun by turning it into a dps, make the act of healing actually fun. Exactly how idk I can think of examples but the idea isn't ludacris and is definitely possible. Fill the free time with healing not dps, I want combo heals, synergizing heals, proccing heals, and for any of that to be fun we need more and more frequent damage.

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This is FFXIV, every class is a pseudo-DPS, we've had 2 expansions for the devs to "make healing fun", and all it's done is keep the healing requirements low and bloat our kits with unnecessary giga-heals for a mechanic that gets used like once a fight. Fights that actually stress our kits to the limit not only can't be done, not even by ultimate fights, doing so would drive healers away similar to what Abyssos did.

The devs have done what you asked and its led to healer shortages, we did fine back in HW and SB when we had more interesting DPS kits, so how about we try that again?

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Originally Posted by Nobuyuki_Sanada

Exactly how idk I can think of examples but the idea isn't ludacris and is definitely possible. Fill the free time with healing not dps, I want combo heals, synergizing heals, proccing heals, and for any of that to be fun we need more and more frequent damage.

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Care to answer the questions I posed previously in this thread?

What exactly does an encounter look like where less-skilled parties still have room for making and recovering from mistakes, while more-skilled parties somehow can't spend half their time dealing damage?

In my opinion if you and me have more complex dps rotation would drain our mana and so we wouldn't be able to heal effectively. And healing is a matter of seconds. That second we waste dpsing the party is gone.

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

In my opinion if you and me have more complex dps rotation would drain our mana and so we wouldn't be able to heal effectively. And healing is a matter of seconds. That second we waste dpsing the party is gone.

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What stops a more complex rotation from having every skill cost 400 mana like our current glare spam does

I guees in early shadowbringers days mana was drained very fast. I guess they fixed it. Maybe they should make thinks more dificult then.