Which WOULD be a semi-valid way to look at things if fights actually did any damage to heal in the first place, even in savage. Theres plenty of fights in the eden raids that do less damage than some fights from stormblood. Why is savage from a whole expansion later doing less damage than fights 10 levels below it? And im not talking damage elative to hp either. Im talking absolute numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aword3213
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/cnbGm...e=damage-taken
neo exdeath, last fight of the very first tier for that expansion.
damage taken: 8.69m
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/KBQ1g...e=damage-taken
Ifrit and garuda savage, a whole expansion later in the second raid tier.
damage taken:8.55m
My reward for healing some paltry damage that at best happens twice a minute if im lucky, is to spam malefic 160 times, instead of 150?
Actually, it was still possible to clear fights with near 0 gcd heals back then, but it was a reward for perfect planning of heals, mitigation and insane embrace micromanagement. Now its practically expected to have single digit gcd heals on a fight where nobody messes up mechanics, for a fraction of the effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aword3213
And that is the crux of the issue. People keep telling SQEX that adding more healing actions doesnt make us heal more, in fact it does the opposite. Youre only trying to make sense of their flawed logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aword3213
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10-24-2021, 03:40 AMQooEr
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10-24-2021, 03:55 AMWaxSwDid I hide something to begin with? People who want a job to not grow because they want to be optimal pressing one button are lazy and imo toxic for the game as they impose a playstyle that do not allow others to grow, is about options, more actions=more playstyiles (even if some are more optimal than others), 1 action= 1 playstyle, for me thats a hijack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aword3213
Especial not to "and be optimal" I people want to keep pressing the 1 button rotation even if its not optimal as long as it doesn't hurt others (enrage wipes and so) they do they.
No? That phrase you said for example implies that I had to do some effort beforehand, current healers do not because at a base level what we do is dpsing, we do not have to do anything to gain it, is given to us by default.Quote:
Depend on how you look at it though.
Have you looked at what mechanics did we have back then and the ones we have now? Mechanics now require more movement out of healers than they did it previously and when previously we had something like managing dots or mitigation like stoneskin the game right now is more bursty.Quote:
How did those people heal back when they didn't have much oGCDs to work with I wonder.
Have you understood what I said? Precisely SE is doing what I said they would, not touching older content because resource allocation for that is insane, you don't even need to understand about coding or server data to understand that reworking 8 years worth of content and the fundamental core of 4 entire jobs is far more work than balancing 16 extra dps actions when they already do that by dozens every expansion.Quote:
You just won't know how their resource work unless you work for them. Besides, they would rather spend more time on adding new healings actions, and a new healer to boot. It seems SQEX opinion on resource is contrary to yours
"they would rather spend more time on adding new healings actions, and a new healer to boot" they add more healing actions for their wrong idea that we would heal more and because the argument of yoshi p about new dps actions and newbies, and even with that they've only added 1 per healer because we're already overloaded with them for the encounter design we have and they better add a new healer after the complains and half assed excuses for dnc to not be a healer, it was a compromise to the commmunity and even with that with every interview you can get the idea they basically wing it, something that looking how its almost sch 2.0 is not hard to believe.
No, its not, in high end content you have 2 healers precisely because of that and 2/3 casters have rez in their toolkit, a healer dying is not the end of the world, not more than a dps dying which may mean a wipe to enrage.Quote:
but their death usally means team wipe.
There is an immense gap between "Anyone can enter" and "Anyone can clear" they don't want people to have to grind for 1838243 hours to have a chance to enter savage but that does not mean savage is balanced around and meant to be cleared by the "uwu I dont know my job pls carry me" kind of players, they're in high end game, they must be up to the task.Quote:
Yoshida want savage contents to be accessible to as many people as possible
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10-24-2021, 04:20 AMAword3213Bad Design is bad design. Not gonna argue. I've mentioned healing in Eden Verse in my othe replies tooQuote:
Originally Posted by QooEr
Thank you for proving my point. You don't need that many oGCD heals to minimize GCD usage.Quote:
Actually, it was still possible to clear fights with near 0 gcd heals back then, but it was a reward for perfect planning of heals, mitigation and insane embrace micromanagement. Now its practically expected to have single digit gcd heals on a fight where nobody messes up mechanics, for a fraction of the effort.
Now that's coming from nowhere. I wasn't though. I agreed on many points with people who quoted me. I said bad things about their design choice. If some people like the current design on healers, I feel happy for them.Quote:
And that is the crux of the issue. People keep telling SQEX that adding more healing actions doesnt make us heal more, in fact it does the opposite. Youre only trying to make sense of their flawed logic.
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10-24-2021, 04:54 AMAword3213And you think there are many playstyes in dps roles.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxSw
Yep, No. Not everyone can reach 10% dps contribtions as easily as you, so by defaut it isn't.Quote:
No? That phrase you said for example implies that I had to do some effort beforehand, current healers do not because at a base level what we do is dpsing, we do not have to do anything to gain it, is given to us by default.
GCD needn't to be flat heals. They already worked something out like Macrocosmos. Don't let your imagination bind you.Quote:
Have you looked at what mechanics did we have back then and the ones we have now? Mechanics now require more movement out of healers than they did it previously and when previously we had something like managing dots or mitigation like stoneskin the game right now is more bursty.
Only by the premise of your idea would they need to rework. They don't have to. I don't know whose suggestion you were taking that led you to think that way, but definitely not mine.Quote:
Precisely SE is doing what I said they would, not touching older content because resource allocation for that is insane, you don't even need to understand about coding or server data to understand that reworking 8 years worth of content and the fundamental core of 4 entire jobs is far more work than balancing 16 extra dps actions when they already do that by dozens every expansion.
You're right. Their idea is bad. Therefore, don't you worry about their resourses. They have plenty to spendQuote:
they would rather spend more time on adding new healings actions, and a new healer to boot" they add more healing actions for their wrong idea that we would heal more and because the argument of yoshi p about new dps actions and newbies
Shocking. To think that you don't know what follows after mechanics are usually raid wide aoes. Well, it depends on the timing of healer's death and the fight. You point is not wrong though.Quote:
No, its not, in high end content you have 2 healers precisely because of that and 2/3 casters have rez in their toolkit, a healer dying is not the end of the world, not more than a dps dying which may mean a wipe to enrage.
"Through this, we saw an increased demand for crafted gear, food items, and potions, and the markets became more active than any previous raids. I concluded that continuing this would allow for more players to enjoy Savage content. Of course, because of that I decided to implement the “Ultimate” series aimed for those who may not be satisfied by the level of difficulty of Savage. "Quote:
There is an immense gap between "Anyone can enter" and "Anyone can clear" .
I think Yoshida is talking about clear. Of course I don't think he meant anyone. -
10-24-2021, 05:11 AMWaxSwYes, far more than healers, a Samurai rotation has nothing to do with Nin's which is completely different from Drg and Rpr seems to be unique too, Blm Smn and Rdm are completely different and I dare you to say dnc is played the same as MchQuote:
Originally Posted by Aword3213
I'm not talking about dps number but number of actions, I'm starting to think you're twisting what I say on purpose. ANY half assed healer has their main nuke as their most casted spell by a huge margin, this is by deffinition not a rework, is the baseline of what you doQuote:
Yep, No. Not everyone can reach 10% dps contribtions as easily as you, so by defaut it isn't.
Which as I said previously, would require you to rework the core of ALL the healers because outside macrocosmos and maybe 2 more heal every other heal in the game is flat healQuote:
GCD needn't to be flat heals. They already worked something out like Macrocosmos. Don't let your imagination bind you.
If they wan't to have healers geared towards high intensity encounters they must rework the game because 8 years worth of content are not designed with those kind of healers in mind I refer you to this other post for more information https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-older-contentQuote:
Only by the premise of your idea would they need to rework. They don't have to. I don't know whose suggestion you were taking that led you to think that way, but definitely not mine.
Considering how their idea shows a fundamental lack of understanding on how the game is played, something that they've shown several time in the past with the famous energy drain nerf "so sch heal with aetherflow more" which to the surprise of anyone but them didn't acomplish anything, or the famous words of yoshi p at the end of 4.5 of "in high end sch is leaving all the healing to their partners" when parses showed that in high end the one that healed the most was sch, yes, they're wrong and considering this forum has been burning of complains for 2 years straight for the extact same thing they haven't solved this next expansion or how this healer iteration (shb onwards) is the most polemic in the history of the game, yes they're very wrong about healers.Quote:
You're right. Their idea is bad.
Thats why we have recived a cut in the dungeons per patch? thats why we only haved 3 job designers none of which main healers for the entirety of the game? or how they promised more viera and hrothgar head gear and didnt deliver any? SE resource on ffxiv are nowhere as big as you thinkQuote:
They have plenty to spend
And the problem is? raidwides are not the scariest thing and can be solo healed with ease, for fucks sake we've seen solo heals of TEA, the hardest hitting ultimate of the game, healers are so overpowered healing wise that 1 dying is more an incovenience than a serious penaltyQuote:
To think that you don't know what follows after mechanics are usually raid wide aoes.
That's the point, anyone can try but you need a bare minimun to succeed and that minmun is knowing your job and gearQuote:
I don't think he meant anyone.
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10-24-2021, 06:03 AMAword3213What I meant is that NIN has 1 playstyle. DRG has 1 playstye. SMN has 1 playstye.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxSw
but if we are comparing jobs with other jobs, then healer playstyle are different too. WHM has lily system and has limited movement options. SCH has fairy, and fairy alone is unique enough. AST has cards and that lovely Earthly Star.
They all have different playstyle. What are you arguing?
Rework? reward?Quote:
I'm not talking about dps number but number of actions, I'm starting to think you're twisting what I say on purpose. ANY half assed healer has their main nuke as their most casted spell by a huge margin, this is by deffinition not a rework, is the baseline of what you do
I think you're talking about reward? To prevent from being falsely accused of twisting words on purpose,I'll refrain from saying anything
There are potential for GCD heals. GCD heals can be interesting, too. They need not to be limited to EW contentQuote:
Which as I said previously, would require you to rework the core of ALL the healers because outside macrocosmos and maybe 2 more heal every other heal in the game is flat heal
Go question him instead. Don't hold me responsible for his ideas. Not all Hrothgars look alike you know.Quote:
If they wan't to have healers geared towards high intensity encounters they must rework the game because 8 years worth of content are not designed with those kind of healers in mind I refer you to this other post for more information https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-older-content
And not as low as you think. I'd rather do The Grand Cosmos than Copperbell Mines ( Hard) or The Antitower. Quality over quantity eh? Most importantly, we got Reaper, hooray. Exploration mode is nice too.Quote:
Thats why we have recived a cut in the dungeons per patch? thats why we only haved 3 job designers none of which main healers for the entirety of the game? or how they promised more viera and hrothgar head gear and didnt deliver any? SE resource on ffxiv are nowhere as big as you think
Seriously, unless you work for SQEX, I don't really consider you point convincing. -
10-24-2021, 07:32 AMSemirhageThose playstyle differences blur together in the tedium of spamming one spell over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Which is what all of them do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aword3213
Understanding why Square has taken their design direction this way isn't complex. It's healers designed by people who don't main them, who don't care about playing them, who aren't all that interested in them, put in charge of designing them to appeal to people who don't care about improving, because appealing to that crowd makes participation go up.
Am I calling people who enjoy the current design lazy Sylphies? You bet. That's just definition at work. Don't like improving or doing any work for anything, looking forward to casting one single spell over and over again? That's lazy. Jeering at vet healers and trotting out the tired "HeaLeRS shOuLD HeAL" line? Sylphies. Lazy. Sylphies.
Square may not have gone in this direction at their insistence, but they don't have to. They have the mentality of lazy Sylphies on the design floor. Because like lazy Sylphies, they don't actually give a crap about healers being interesting. They want them easy.
All four healers are one button spam snoozefests. Not a one of them has been designed with veteran feedback in mind. They still think our abilities are used in proportion to how *many* of them exist, rather than based on how important they are to use in context. That's how little they know or care to know about how healing works. -
10-24-2021, 07:48 AMSebazyJust to interject here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aword3213
I've mentioned it before but I did an analysis on this exact thing a few years back that still stands true today. Sato got promoted to a producer style position, perhaps try improve communication between the battle system and content design teams. Another designer got drafted in to keep the team at 4.
SE's investment into FFXIV is... Peculiar at times. They invest massively into the production quality. Art, world building, audio and voice acting are all top notch. But the core design team has always been run as a very tight operation compared to most MMOs. Vanilla WoW invested heavily hiring out of the Everquest scene for example.
Are they really though? In Extremes and up where you're forced to lean on more of your kit, sure. Below that though, eh they're all largely pressing the same buttons with different particles and SFX. Watch a healer streaming the MSQ and it looks the same regardless of which healer they are on. The DPS are much more varied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aword3213
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10-24-2021, 08:03 AMWaxSwNo, it has 1 "optimal" playstyle, appart from that there are multiple deviations players may take, healers can't our only deviation is to use the nuke or not use it, thats all we haveQuote:
Originally Posted by Aword3213
Lilly system, which whms avoid cause is less efficient than other healers ogcds, Sch fairy which while handy we cannot control the majority of the time and we use less than 15 of its actions per encounter, Ast has cards one every 30s and earthly star which has the same as playstyle as salted earth, is salted earth a playstyle for you too?Quote:
WHM has lily system and has limited movement options. SCH has fairy, and fairy alone is unique enough. AST has cards and that lovely Earthly Star.
The funny part, their dps and I'm gonna use Ast and Sch because is what my cohealer in the previous raid tier, lets see the actions:
Ast: 194 Generic nuke, 18 generic dot, 7 star, 16 cards, 5 divination
Sch: 145 Generic Nuke, 18 generic dot, 43 Ruin 2, 36 energy drain, 5 Chain stratagem
Literally the only difference in playstyle for ast is 12% of its total dps action, the other 88% is the same shit every other healer has with 0 depth, for Sch and thanks to ruin (RIP cause no we dont have to weave with it) the uniqueness of its kit is...35% such deviation Its ridiculous because Sch would be the most different, if I take a whm the percentage is even higher, saying they have different playstyles is like saying that pepsi and coca cola are fundamentally different drinks, they are the same shit
"BuT ThEIr hEAling" you may say, for that log for the ast, those dps actions were 84% of its total actions, 84% of which 88% is generic stuff, or in other words 73,92% of what said ast did in a 8m savage encounter was generic, this is not a playstyle, this is a disgrace.
RewardQuote:
Rework? reward?
Exactly but since every gcd heal in the game now is not interesting to allow to do that you would have to rework the core of every healer to allow for those heals, which is way way way more work than balancing 3-4 actions per healerQuote:
There are potential for GCD heals. GCD heals can be interesting, too. They need not to be limited to EW content
From here on, if you're not able to see that to get a functional high intensity heal playstyle you'd need to give an enviroment that requires that playstyle and that the game currently doesnt have it, we have a problem, what I can't understand is how you don't seem to be able to realize that adding and balancing 3-4 actions per healer is way less work than reworking 8 years worth of content, raids and single target instances and core heals of 4 jobs.Quote:
Go question him instead
Once again, its not about numbers, is about common sense, reworking a game that big as FF is an amount of resources no company is gonna give because its insanely time consuming for something that can be achieved in more efficient waQuote:
Seriously, unless you work for SQEX, I don't really consider you point convincing.
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10-24-2021, 11:52 AMAFuzzyMu11in
Ok what is this about lilies being not efficient now? I keep hearing lilies clip and other shit like that. It's an instant cast that builds up to a high dps ability wdym it's bad.