Players connot join the party while you are engaged in combat

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Originally Posted by viion

Argument to stupid to get into.

There doesn't need to be a restriction, theres no need for it, there isn't one on XI and never has been and its fine. Sure people log out to reset hate, *** who cares lol.

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If they felt there was no need for a restriction, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have one. ^^; Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

If they felt there was no need for a restriction, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have one. ^^; Just saying.

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Its because they don't like how people did certain things, thus the restriction, its like that on a lot of things. Developers tend to forget they're not the ones playing the game. We are.

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Originally Posted by viion

Its because they don't like how people did certain things, thus the restriction, its like that on a lot of things. Developers tend to forget they're not the ones playing the game. We are.

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It's kind of their game...so they make the rules, don't they? ^^; Restriction builds difficulty. =D

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

It's kind of their game...so they make the rules, don't they? ^^; Restriction builds difficulty. =D

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But at the expense of game-play? That's a dangerous precedent.

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Originally Posted by viion

Its because they don't like how people did certain things, thus the restriction, its like that on a lot of things. Developers tend to forget they're not the ones playing the game. We are.

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a lot of people didnt like getting swapped in to do 1 hit, and it made zerging with enough people a viable strat for many. I am honestly not sad to see it go. Going to an event and swapping in people for single tasks, when they die, etc was not in the game design, it was an abuse of being able to invite players while fighting. They decided to let people get away with it in ffxi, because it became a core mechanic of the game for many people, but in thier new game they didnt want to have to build content difficulty with an infinite amount of people being able to join a battle in mind.

This of course may change, if they get rid of the claiming system, then maybe their is no reason any more, but its a logical descion as things are. It makes sense and has good reasoning behind it

Actually devs do play their games. In ffxi they added restiction because players abuse certain aspects of the game to grief other players. Such as mpking them via training mobs to a parting and logging out. Also this really doesn't needs to be fixed. It is only an issue if you let it be an issue. You guys are trigger happy players who could wait.

You could have waiting for your alchemist friend change back you didn't and payed the price. With the dc conj you could waited or finish killing your current target so you could invite them.

I can't believe something as lol-bipartisan as "It's annoying when you can't do X while engage" is seeing so much opposition.

^ this is why I have little hope for this game. The community is a hindrance to the game.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

^ this is why I have little hope for this game. The community is a hindrance to the game.

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Aye, Stockholm syndrome from the FF11 days.. sad but true.

the only gripes i really have about the system is not being able to leave the party when something is engaged, and having teleports for people in the party but in a completely different zone being locked out.


And In ffxiv Mobs kite themselves!

While I personaly dont care one way or the other how this ends up, for i wouldnt mind the swapping and such


I find it absolutely hilarious people blame the game rather then the "impatient" players some of them have mentioned

Impatience is a virus in itself that should be purged and has caused many wipes in many games over the years

SE should handle DCs so people can rejoin a party after reconnecting. Other than that, on the fly member swapping just opens up the game for weasel tactics like throwing bodies, zerging, etc.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

here is a thing to try, kill the mob then wait a moment to invite. Did that cross anyones mind?

most of it isn't stupid and it is also to prevent mpk which was a big issue in ffxi. Which is why there limited the train/kiting in ffxi.

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Heres an idea get past level 10, fight some NM gain some game experience then comment

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

Heres an idea get past level 10, fight some NM gain some game experience then comment

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That's a really rude thing to say. You were level 10 once, don't be a jerk.

Also what Kita said is a bit naive. @Kita, NM fights take about 30 minutes give or take, and if someone d/cs in that time, especially in the smaller parties we have now, you would be lucky to even defeat that NM to even reinvite that person. It is an issue. People that originally engaged the NM are locked out of their battle and their team mates are out their role/contribution to the fight. Not all fights are just those 1 minute leve mobs or monsters just outside of cities.


If they just had a way that if you d/ced while in a party, when you log back on your name is still on that party roster list. If they have the mob engaged or not shouldn't matter, you would be in the party and thus be able to participate in battle. That's not adding players, that's not removing players. I think this is a doable and fair idea.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

If they just had a way that if you d/ced while in a party, when you log back on your name is still on that party roster list. If they have the mob engaged or not shouldn't matter, you would be in the party and thus be able to participate in battle. That's not adding players, that's not removing players. I think this is a doable and fair idea.

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that was my original suggestion. it would not add new players. it would just allow the players that started a fight to be allowed back in the fight. not got from ok we have a tough 3 man nm fight going on to the oh it cannot be done without the healer.

by having the restriction it leads to an hour of timesink which is what they continue to complain about it timesinks for no reason. since you cannot defeat the mob without the member and cannot get them back in the original party you watch the mob despawn then have to sit and wait for it to spawn again.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

that was my original suggestion. it would not add new players. it would just allow the players that started a fight to be allowed back in the fight. not got from ok we have a tough 3 man nm fight going on to the oh it cannot be done without the healer.

by having the restriction it leads to an hour of timesink which is what they continue to complain about it timesinks for no reason. since you cannot defeat the mob without the member and cannot get them back in the original party you watch the mob despawn then have to sit and wait for it to spawn again.

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I disagree on the allowing role swapping on the fly. You have to be conscious of how you jump into the fray, and how you set up your characters. Anything more than that makes things needlessly complicated and destroys any semblance of character identity (in before "LOL RP"). I'd worry more about fixing the DC issues instead of changing the system to work around them.

I definitely agree on the party spot taken by a member that DCs should be reserved for that person if they DC, and after a span of time (maybe 10 minutes?) the game auto-kicks them if the party leader already has not. Leadership would get auto-passed to the next member in the party if the leader DCs.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I disagree on the allowing role swapping on the fly. You have to be conscious of how you jump into the fray, and how you set up your characters. Anything more than that makes things needlessly complicated and destroys any semblance of character identity (in before "LOL RP"). I'd worry more about fixing the DC issues instead of changing the system to work around them.

I definitely agree on the party spot taken by a member that DCs should be reserved for that person if they DC, and after a span of time (maybe 10 minutes?) the game auto-kicks them if the party leader already has not. Leadership would get auto-passed to the next member in the party if the leader DCs.

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i mention the swapping from dol/dol once to a battle class because there has been times mobs will spawn on your group while trying to repair one of the party members weapons before the battle via talking to others on skype/vent and a person not in the call would run to claim the mob. that person would be just stuck not being able to join in battle because they were helping another member. then you would lose 2 of your party from the fight because one switched off their weapon to get it repaired and the other had to switch to fix that weapon. i just don't see why a one time switch only if that person is non battle/magic class when the mob is engaged would hurt anyone.

Don't craft in hostile territory. No one said you had the right to switch back to a battle job if you got caught with your pants down. Tell people to wait on their weapons, or plan ahead better.

If they can build a system that remembers the names and hate levels of the person who "dc'd" then fine. My guess is, though, that is not plausible.

&!$@ happens. Try again if your key players dc. If they don't keep it like it is, 90+% of dc's in fights will be intentional, for profit. You can't give that kind of weaseling player an inch, even if it means you are personally SOL if you dc.

It's worth not letting weak players dictate how endgame fights and teams go.

I think you shouldn't be able to do those things if you are within a certain range of the party(maybe like near the same camp or within a certain short radius), but if you are nowhere near them you should be able to do all that stuff, perhaps they will fix this issue.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

I think you shouldn't be able to do those things if you are within a certain range of the party(maybe like near the same camp or within a certain short radius), but if you are nowhere near them you should be able to do all that stuff, perhaps they will fix this issue.

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I can go with that, provided its a change from a DoH class to DoW class and vice versa requiring 20-30 yalm range from the party engaged in combat.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

That's a really rude thing to say. You were level 10 once, don't be a jerk.

Also what Kita said is a bit naive. @Kita, NM fights take about 30 minutes give or take, and if someone d/cs in that time, especially in the smaller parties we have now, you would be lucky to even defeat that NM to even reinvite that person. It is an issue. People that originally engaged the NM are locked out of their battle and their team mates are out their role/contribution to the fight. Not all fights are just those 1 minute leve mobs or monsters just outside of cities.


If they just had a way that if you d/ced while in a party, when you log back on your name is still on that party roster list. If they have the mob engaged or not shouldn't matter, you would be in the party and thus be able to participate in battle. That's not adding players, that's not removing players. I think this is a doable and fair idea.

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Eldana it may be Rude but Kita has a notorious rep based on the fact he/she has 2500+ posts before they even picked up the game. 90% of all topics he/she comments on turns into flames based on comments he/she makes due to lack of experience/comparing everything to how it was done in XI, so until that rep has subsided based on merit and experience no offense they will continue.

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Originally Posted by Elkwood

Eldana it may be Rude but Kita has a notorious rep based on the fact he/she has 2500+ posts before they even picked up the game. 90% of all topics he/she comments on turns into flames based on comments he/she makes due to lack of experience/comparing everything to how it was done in XI, so until that rep has subsided based on merit and experience no offense they will continue.

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Regardless of any of this, two wrongs do not make things right. Be respectable if you want people to respect you. And, although they may be known for some negative things, I have seen Kita make points that do make some sense in the past. As I said, their comment was naive, but you are not in any right to try to belittle them because of their rank.

Agreed with this thread, although I can sort of see why it's in place d/cing and just having to stand there and watch my LS fight an NM is kinda lame. It's like they're trying to be protective but in the process it just hurts people who are doing nothing wrong, and makes the game frustrating.

For those talking about Kiting:

If you think there's no Kiting in FFXIV, you'd better join us when we do Drunk Fishing.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

For those talking about Kiting:

If you think there's no Kiting in FFXIV, you'd better join us when we do Drunk Fishing.

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Depends on the type of kiting. That lame kind is where you have to nuke a boss while kiting it for the entire fight. Kiting adds as a mechanic (using roots and snares and other nifty things to keep them at bay) is actually perfectly acceptable.

I don't want to be able to invite players while engaged. It gives power to n00bs and retards. I remember the horrors of XI's early days (before rage timers) where LSs would bring 30+ people to Fafnir and zerg it dead in a 5-6 hour fight because they could just keep throwing people at it by booting the dead.

Rage timers prevent that somewhat, but it still makes shit easier for those who don't wish to learn a strategy. Dodore was a hard NM for most LSs on my server back in Jan for example. If they could have booted their dead tanks and added new ones they'd have zerged it dead no problem.

Right, easy solution to satisfy both parties. If the mob is an NM, don't allow invite while engaged, otherwise allow it. It's probably just the easy mode people who want the power to boot their dead and invite others. I've no problem wiping to an NM because half the party DCed and it has happened. It's a price worth paying to prevent the shit XI had.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

I don't want to be able to invite players while engaged. It gives power to n00bs and retards. I remember the horrors of XI's early days (before rage timers) where LSs would bring 30+ people to Fafnir and zerg it dead in a 5-6 hour fight because they could just keep throwing people at it by booting the dead.

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This is more a reflection of how bad encounter design was in FFXI, not that dropping and inviting people while in combat was broken or OP.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Dodore was a hard NM for most LSs on my server back in Jan for example.

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you mean the same dodore that has being solo'd, duo'd, and trio'd since way before the patch that made it loleasy?

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Originally Posted by Xenor

I've no problem wiping to an NM because half the party DCed and it has happened. It's a price worth paying to prevent the shit XI had.

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and once again people are willing to take things that make the game less fun because they are afraid. i had the same worry of zerging, but was looking at more of once the battle starts the party gets locked so only people in the party could rejoin, but not let in new members. that would solve the same worry without the keeping dc'd people out of the fight.

Seems that most of us agree that the issue is people who DC during the fight not being able to rejoin.

Maybe someone could make a thread requesting a fix for that particular problem, and people can start asking for it and hitting the Like button, instead of arguing with people who just want to be able to throw bodies at stuff.

THis has been talked bout sence Beta. It's such a bad design just get ride of it.

As for job switching, I think it was a bad design decision to have DOH/DOL as separate classes who are unable to contribute to combat. It dumbs the missions down to a boring level, and annoys the party when someone was repairing their weapon while someone else engaged. I like being able to make stuff, but doing missions as a crafter is just boring to me; I want to hit stuff to save the world. Originally, DOH/DOL were supposed to help with combat (I think?) but it seems like the idea was scrapped, so having them as a main class should have been scrapped as well, IMHO.

Maybe creating new equipment slots for DOH/DOL tools and subtools, and leaving your main job as a combat class would help? Of course, stats on the tools shouldn't affect your stats during combat, and stats on the weapons shouldn't affect your stats during crafting.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

you mean the same dodore that has being solo'd, duo'd, and trio'd since way before the patch that made it loleasy?

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No one was soloing Dodore in January. But yes certain THM abilities are over powered, doesn't mean an NM is easy however because not everyone had the luxury of THMs tanking it back then. Solo/duo strategy is quite different than when you're bringing a linkshell made up of a variety of classes, sometimes with no THM at all.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

and once again people are willing to take things that make the game less fun because they are afraid. i had the same worry of zerging, but was looking at more of once the battle starts the party gets locked so only people in the party could rejoin, but not let in new members. that would solve the same worry without the keeping dc'd people out of the fight.

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Can't say I'd disagree with that.

By the way, you're all wrong in how to handle the matter at hand;

The most obvious fix to this is - since dungeons are going to be instanced; put a cap on how many players can be inside that particular instance. In FFXIV's case the cap will be 4 or 8 for light and full party dungeons. Aside from keeping that d/ced character in the party as "OFFLINE" for 5-10 minutes until booted. <--- This will also fix the d/cing = failing leves stupidity that has been plaguing this game since its inception. You've got 10 minutes to log back in - safe to say that if you don't log back in in that time you probably wont.

This coupled with the removal of stupid delimiters like not inviting/disbanding while engaged, etc etc - will fix the issue and prevent abuse.

SE should hire me right? I know. Its called common sense.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

No one was soloing Dodore in January. But yes certain THM abilities are over powered, doesn't mean an NM is easy however because not everyone had the luxury of THMs tanking it back then. Solo/duo strategy is quite different than when you're bringing a linkshell made up of a variety of classes, sometimes with no THM at all.

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well i am not certain about january, but i am deffinitely sure they were being solo'd in february. i believe my statement you quoted was pre nerf patch. pre nerf patch it was being solo'd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KazOD...DDFC2B1457546D

this was taken 2/28 which was before the neft that lowered the amount of hp on the mobs and reduced the number of minions. i guess i was right.

On topic (as per the OP), not being able to invite party members in combat is a flaw IMO. I understand why it is there, and I even agree with it, however it makes partying very difficult, especially with NMs. I'm not talking about party swapping. I'm talking about three people getting together to kill an NM for drops the can actually use, and being able to manage (if just barely) until one person drops.

Today, for example, I was fighting Unknown Soldier. A rank 35 LNC, a rank 35 Arc, and a 25 Con. We were surviving, and it was taking a long time to kill, but we were managing. Then, the arc dropped because of connection lost. Now its just me and the con. We survived, but as the only DD, I -could not- out-damage the NM's drain attack. We tried for 30min and could not, under any circumstances, get it below 50% health. We had to disengage, run away, re-invite the arc, and then go back in. We were lucky there was no one else there to re-claim before we could.

This is a prime example of why this needs to be addressed. For us this was a fun, hard battle; at our ranks it is exactly the sort of battle that FF is supposed to be about. Not easy, but takes skill, but not impossible.

Couple this with the fact that outside healers cannot heal people engaged with NMs, and it means if you are relying on a main healer and you loose them in the combat, you are screwed.

Now, I happen to agree with what they are trying to do, but they need to do it in a way that doesn't hamper play. My suggestion would be that if someone joins a party mid-engage, they have some sort of weakness. Its a simple, elegent solution, that mitigates the problem of cycling players.

But I would say, whats wrong with cycling players? My LS frequently goes out to do things that, at our ranks, take a lot of people. Only we're limited to 8 people now because of a lack of alliances. We go out NM hunting and we have to have two parties trading out claims just for our own LS? Thats kind of silly, IMO.

Anyhow, that's my two cents.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

well i am not certain about january, but i am deffinitely sure they were being solo'd in february. i believe my statement you quoted was pre nerf patch. pre nerf patch it was being solo'd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KazOD...DDFC2B1457546D

this was taken 2/28 which was before the neft that lowered the amount of hp on the mobs and reduced the number of minions. i guess i was right.

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Well I specifically said January. By 28/2 every high rank linkshell on my server was regularly farming it. You're comparing different time periods. Shit changes, people develop better strategies, THMs figure out how to use Emulate etc. My original point was that LSs would have been zerging it by booting dead in January (you're expected to assume mid month when no actual date is given) when they were unable to defeat it with strategy had there been the option.

On a side note, Wutai was a bit behind the curve with Dodore. The doublets were selling for 5mil on other servers by the time linkshells here were farming it. They stayed 10-15mil on this server until the nerf.

I just don't want to see unskilled players beating mobs without strategy before they've learned how to fight it. People will do anything to take down a mob on the first attempt if given the options. I've seen a Dodore fight that lasted an hour that included multiple wipes, the guys were exploiting something to keep claim and reset the rage timer. That's the poor man's way of zerging. They couldn't boot their dead. They just reset, kept claim and restarted. Don't make it easy for them.

You gave a good solution to the problem in your earlier post so there's not much to debate.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Well I specifically said January. By 28/2 every high rank linkshell on my server was regularly farming it. You're comparing different time periods. Shit changes, people develop better strategies, THMs figure out how to use Emulate etc. My original point was that LSs would have been zerging it by booting dead in January (you're expected to assume mid month when no actual date is given) when they were unable to defeat it with strategy had there been the option.

On a side note, Wutai was a bit behind the curve with Dodore. The doublets were selling for 5mil on other servers by the time linkshells here were farming it. They stayed 10-15mil on this server until the nerf.

I just don't want to see unskilled players beating mobs without strategy before they've learned how to fight it. People will do anything to take down a mob on the first attempt if given the options. I've seen a Dodore fight that lasted an hour that included multiple wipes, the guys were exploiting something to keep claim and reset the rage timer. That's the poor man's way of zerging. They couldn't boot their dead. They just reset, kept claim and restarted. Don't make it easy for them.

You gave a good solution to the problem in your earlier post so there's not much to debate.

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oh believe me i understand the ls i was in back then wiped many times to the dodore. i was just looking at they have ways to solve the issue without hurting the overall game play and fun factor. we cannot base everything in game off what a rmt/zerg party is going to do. they should always keep them in mind, but they should make changes to fix those issues without hurting the player just out trying to have a good time. when a game is struggling anything that takes away from the fun the players that are actually still playing the game to me is not such a good idea.

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Originally Posted by AquaRyu

While mob is engaged we can't do many many things:

invite
Disband
Log off
Equip skill
Swich job
warp
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You can still equip skills during combat. You only need to put your weapon back for a moment.
If you are not in combat but your weapon is out, you can't equip skills, too

Let me ask this question - how many people have lost connection since 1.17a with that stupid "connection to the server lost" error. I swear to god I get it once a play session and I have a dedicated FC line and have very little degradation on pingtest.net. My connection is as reliable as your Tax bill.

In the fight I mentioned in my OP our THM became our main healer and we eventually won the fight @28 mins (for most of the group this was there first roaming NM fight) and we had managed to break both horns. If we'd wiped we'd have been majorly pissed, especially as Bloody Bardiche Head and Buffalo Horn dropped (Barbarians Bardiche <mine>).

Regardless of whether it's a deliberate move on SE's part to stop work-arounds in NM fight shouldn't really matter. It's unfair to the playerbase and is one of the things people can just add to the laundry list of complaints that went with this release. If SE refuse to change it at least fix their server stability so we don't lose connection as much as we do.

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Originally Posted by Grundy

Let me ask this question - how many people have lost connection since 1.17a with that stupid "connection to the server lost" error. I swear to god I get it once a play session and I have a dedicated FC line and have very little degradation on pingtest.net. My connection is as reliable as your Tax bill.

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at least once a day.

I know if this were the XI days, job changing with that much ease would probably be considered cheating, but this game was advertised as being able to change on the fly. They mentioned changing, curing yourself, then changing back since the game was talked about. I think its silly all the restrictions they impose because somebody is engaged.

The other day my behest group asked me to buff them by changing to conj before it started so I did, but some nutjob ran off and engaged mobs before I could change back and he stayed engaged, this hindered me and my group, and there is nothing you can do in such an event. Kick him and he'll just ruin the exp anyways...

I think changing should be allowed it was advertised as such while in development and never said it would be different, and SEVERAL other things such as party invites. Just off the top of my head, a friend comes to help you midway through an nm fight, for instance I camped for joytoy in XI and would never force someone to camp with me but theyd be more than willing to join part way through.