Binding Coil - Turn 5 - Divebomb Phase

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TirionCrey

"Bashing your head" against Turn 5 for 6 days of the week does not really mean "there is enough endgame content"^^

---

uh.... welcome to mmos?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zdenka

Personally I give huge props to SE, I didn't think this level of encounter would ever be produced by JP developers honestly.

---

Well that's a pretty arrogant remark to make. I agreed with everyone you said before this sentence. Japanese ppl have some of the sharpest mind sets this world has seen. They are constantly pumping out new technology and/or making current tech smaller for conveniance but creating a difficult raid boss with tight tuning is past their abilities? If instead you would try to claim the comment was in regards to their stance on difficulty then lets not even go there because they are the ones who like things hard.

WoW generation has spread like a disease, not that im saying you're from it but rather that it in general bred easymode gear seekers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janda

Japanese ppl have some of the sharpest mind sets this world has seen. They are constantly pumping out new technology and/or making current tech smaller for conveniance but creating a difficult raid boss with tight tuning is past their abilities?

---

And yet it didn't really help them make any interesting non-kite, non-tank-and-spank battles in FFXI, now did it? Additionally, MOST content in 1.0 outside of Darnus Hard was pretty much a joke, now wasn't it? So I'm pretty sure that's what he was basing his comment on. Relax.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janda

they are the ones who like things hard

---

Based on what evidence? If you cite leveling in FFXI, let me stop you before you get started. It wasn't hard, it was a grind. Based on this qualification, they are not "the ones who like things hard", they are "the ones who like things grindy."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janda

WoW generation has spread like a disease, not that im saying you're from it but rather that it in general bred easymode gear seekers.

---

So you jump on his case because you feel he's generalizing only to turn around and generalize as well in turn. But hey, sure, let's humor you. What was easymode about Firefighter? Alone in the Darkness? Heroic Rag? What was easymode about Vashj and Kaelthas before the nerfs? What was easymode about C'thun or vanilla Naxx in general? On an attempt-for-attempt basis these were all statistically more difficult to beat then AV in FFXI. But SE simply throttled progression by designing a system which severely limited the number of attempts any guild could put in per week.

Love it or hate it, boss encounters in WoW were designed MUCH better. There's a reason why Yoshi considers it the global standard, and there's a reason why many of the bosses in ARR follow familiar mechanics. You can convince yourself all you like that he's simply catering to a majority, but if that's what you really think- try being objective. Get in Coil and see for yourself.

about dem rng dives doe... so wack

Going to have to agree with Ikkenoe here -- I don't really understand what all the hate is with WoW.

Its community is no more or less toxic than any other MMO. Its encounters are (Generally) very well designed and tested (with an EXTREMELY good difficulty curve in most raid dungeons). They generally have a very large spread of content available for most patches. Most dungeons have a large number of bosses (Twintania could honestly be 3 different bosses). People like to give WoW crap for the same reason they give Nickelback crap -- it is the "in" thing to do, and people have to be in the "in" crowd... right?

A producer/designer these days would be silly not to take its cues from the MMO that is more successful than any other on the market by an order of magnitude. That is exactly what they are doing here... they are taking elements of WoW and adding Final Fantasy/JP flavor to them. This is a good choice, and it looks like it has a ton of potential.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TirionCrey

"Bashing your head" against Turn 5 for 6 days of the week does not really mean "there is enough endgame content"^^

I'm fine with how it is right now, don't get me wrong, but I really can't wait for 2.1^^ With the content coming there I think the game is good to go content wise for a while^^

---

As long as people have something that they're having to push and progress through, I'd say there's endgame content. And that's exactly what we've got at the moment.

Also, I disagree on the "bashing your head" comment. Serious raiding is often about pushing against very difficult content and going forward step by step, just a little at a time. It's not easy, and it can take a long time, but that's how we like it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xilrasis

People like to give WoW crap for the same reason they give Nickelback crap -- it is the "in" thing to do, and people have to be in the "in" crowd... right?

---

In my defense, I give Nickelback crap because Nickelback sucks.

Edit: Oh, and Coldplay, too.

no gear check? our tanks are getting one shotted at around 70% HP of the boss

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

no gear check? our tanks are getting one shotted at around 70% HP of the boss

---

You are doing it wrong, then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xilrasis

You are doing it wrong, then.

---

Enlighten us? Tanks are getting hit by 5.5-5.8k Death attack thingy. They had bad luck with gear though no allagan pieces. Problem is when the auto attack is in sync with Death attack causing over 7k damage instantly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

Enlighten us? Tanks are getting hit by 5.5-5.8k Death attack thingy. They had bad luck with gear though no allagan pieces. Problem is when the auto attack is in sync with Death attack causing over 7k damage instantly

---

Tell your healers to be better. If you have a white mage and a scholar you can get around 2k+ damage mitigation prior to the death sentence, and that isn't counting any sort of buffs the tank may use. I don't think my group has gotten any sort of tank item outside of the shield and a ring, and there has been no trouble healing them through any phase of coil including up to the phase of Twintania we are on. You just need need to adjust and get the mechanics down and be proactive instead of reactive.

Also, I like how absolutely none of this thread tries to put together any sort of beneficial response to the OPs question, and is instead just people attacking one another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ikkenoe

snip

---

I'll answer you point for point to each quote.

1:They did indeed actually have some interesting fights in ffxi especialy back in 75 cap days. The style of ffxi as a game design was by no means as fast as WoW so there was always going to be some differences. You say that Zdenk was referring to Darnus, yet he himself generalizes and says "JP developers" and NOT ffxiv developers so my innitial dig was at this.

2:Yet again you generlize and presume that i meant long grind = hard gameplay which btw i dont think at all. Take for example "Mario: the lost levels" back in the NES days: they didnt even release it in the west to begin with simply because they didnt think we'd like our platformers to be that hardcore and require pixel perfect jumps/actions. Fair enough they were wrong to think it but none the less they did. As for ffxi difficulty, thats all changed since 99cap for sure but it did have proper hardcore fights for those who wanted it back again in 75 days with original salvage when it came out and the many fights in Sea and no im not talking about the abusive AV's or PW's.

3:Once again you manage presume to know exactly what im talking about when i say "easymode gear seekers" At no point did i ever say WoW didnt have some hard fights bcoz it did, i would know i too played it vanilla leading up to lichking b4 i quit. I am referring instead to how it letteraly threw gear at you for each and every boss downed and not the difficulty of the boss itself. I did however like the token system so u could save up for something if you didnt get what u wanted before too long but my guild which i ran couldnt find the ppl to throw the gear at it was coming so fast.

As for Yoshi using it as the global standard? This merely bcoz WoW made mmo's popular and has nothing to do with the mechanics of the bosses themselves. Ppl didnt buy into WoW at the start thinking "holy shiz that fight looks technically awesome therefore i must experiance it!" No mate, just no. I was also an EQ player but yoshi had to make ffxiv financially successful which is WHY he considers WoW the standard for what ppl expect in a modern mmo. Wow only made mmo's cool where as before in eq days it was seen as something played by men in their 30-40's mostly which was perhaps true as kids didnt have as easy access to credit cards back then which was yet another thing WoW changed with its gamecards etc that anyone could buy to play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

Enlighten us? Tanks are getting hit by 5.5-5.8k Death attack thingy. They had bad luck with gear though no allagan pieces. Problem is when the auto attack is in sync with Death attack causing over 7k damage instantly

---

Virus. Adloquium. Scholar Bubble. Tank Cooldowns. Eye for an Eye. Rain of Death. Stoneskin. Properly timed heals.

Death sentence is a trivial aspect of the encounter, and if abilities are used to their fullest, gear is a complete non-factor. It comes every 30 seconds (roughly, plus or minus depending on whether she is mid fireball or plummet). There you go. Gear just allows you to screw up more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xilrasis

Virus. Adloquium. Scholar Bubble. Tank Cooldowns. Eye for an Eye. Rain of Death. Stoneskin. Properly timed heals.

Death sentence is a trivial aspect of the encounter, and if abilities are used to their fullest, gear is a complete non-factor. It comes every 30 seconds (roughly, plus or minus depending on whether she is mid fireball or plummet). There you go. Gear just allows you to screw up more.

---

They get hit with hard with the mentioned skills

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

They get hit with hard with the mentioned skills

---

And this is why my original post was as snarky as it was. You didn't even bother to look at the list of the abilities I gave you and consider their function on Death Sentence. The first thing we did when we made it to turn 5 was go through the ability list of each and every job and figure out what would help where, and as we have seen each new boss ability we have done the same.

We have had death sentences do literally zero damage to our tank.

Zero. 0. Nil. Nada. Cero. Zilch.

Most of the time, the DS + AA combo does less than 4.5k damage combined.

I'm just watching your stream right now to see :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

I'm just watching your stream right now to see :P

---

Its not ours, its probably Elvine's.

We have several different groups in Turn 5 progressed at different points. We do not stream this group's progression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xilrasis

And this is why my original post was as snarky as it was. You didn't even bother to look at the list of the abilities I gave you and consider their function on Death Sentence. The first thing we did when we made it to turn 5 was go through the ability list of each and every job and figure out what would help where, and as we have seen each new boss ability we have done the same.

We have had death sentences do literally zero damage to our tank.

Zero. 0. Nil. Nada. Cero. Zilch.

Most of the time, the DS + AA combo does less than 4.5k damage combined.

---

They could have a Warrior tanking, in which case I can see it one shotting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yenn

They could have a Warrior tanking, in which case I can see it one shotting.

Also if Death Sentence and Liquid Fire happen at the same time, the tank is pretty much dead, no matter what.

---

Liquid fire + DS isn't even that bad. The only times our tank is really ever in danger anymore is when someone falls asleep after doing this phase for the 20th time that night or they get hit by 3 liquid hells in a row with death sentence or two plus the healer being hit by one. This phase doesn't generally last long enough for this to be a huge issue.

Its all really about debuff and cooldown management.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noahlimits

In my defense, I give Nickelback crap because Nickelback sucks.

Edit: Oh, and Coldplay, too.

---

No way, "Talk" is sick. That Kraftwerk riff is too good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xilrasis

Liquid fire + DS isn't even that bad. The only times our tank is really ever in danger anymore is when someone falls asleep after doing this phase for the 20th time that night or they get hit by 3 liquid hells in a row with death sentence or two plus the healer being hit by one. This phase doesn't generally last long enough for this to be a huge issue.

Its all really about debuff and cooldown management.

---

Nothing can survive a 4.5k Death Sentence + Auto + 1.4k Liquid Hell tick (potentially two), unless your PLD has 6k+ health

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yenn

Nothing can survive a 4.5k Death Sentence + Auto + 1.4k Liquid Hell tick (potentially two), unless your PLD has 6k+ health

---

Death Sentence doesn't do 4.5k if properly handled with debuffs/cooldowns/shields in phase 1, and your tank can completely avoid Liquid Hell ticks (the majority of the damage the ability deals) if they are moving when they get hit (so constantly strafe).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xilrasis

Death Sentence doesn't do 4.5k if properly handled with debuffs/cooldowns/shields in phase 1, and your tank can completely avoid Liquid Hell ticks (the majority of the damage the ability deals) if they are moving when they get hit (so constantly strafe).

---

Death Sentence + auto for combined 4.5k. Liquid Hell ticks sometimes can't be avoided because of the server-side DoT mechanic; it's pretty RNG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yenn

Death Sentence + auto for combined 4.5k. Liquid Hell ticks sometimes can't be avoided because of the server-side DoT mechanic; it's pretty RNG.

---

Ok.

/10char

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yenn

Death Sentence + auto for combined 4.5k. Liquid Hell ticks sometimes can't be avoided because of the server-side DoT mechanic; it's pretty RNG.

---

Why aren't your healers precasting? Neither Death Sentence nor Liquid Hell are instant casts, you know. You can time a heal to go off the instant he eats a Death Sentence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaft

Why aren't your healers precasting? Neither Death Sentence nor Liquid Hell are instant casts, you know. You can time a heal to go off the instant he eats a Death Sentence.

---

How does precasting a heal stop simultaneous damage from Death Sentence + Liquid Hell? Simultaneous means at the same time. If the heal gets between them, that's sheer luck.

Either way, it's not common for it to happen, but it does happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yenn

How does precasting a heal stop simultaneous damage from Death Sentence + Liquid Hell? Simultaneous means at the same time. If the heal gets between them, that's sheer luck.

Either way, it's not common for it to happen, but it does happen.

---

Death Sentence + Liquid Hell simultaneously isn't going to kill a topped-off tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

I'm just watching your stream right now to see :P

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xilrasis

Its not ours, its probably Elvine's.

We have several different groups in Turn 5 progressed at different points. We do not stream this group's progression.

---

Yup, it's probably mine. Xil's group does not stream and they are much further progressed than the group I'm leading which was started a 1/2 weeks after our "group 1".

This is a discussion about Divebombs, not a guide to tell you how to do the mechanics of the fight. Don't take it the wrong way if many groups on Turn 5 aren't willing to hold hands on an encounter unkilled yet! Take your time and attempts, look at all the abilities to figure out what each of them do.

Good luck!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yenn

Nothing can survive a 4.5k Death Sentence + Auto + 1.4k Liquid Hell tick (potentially two), unless your PLD has 6k+ health

---

Too many noobs deny the power of Roegadyn!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carraway

No way, "Talk" is sick. That Kraftwerk riff is too good.

---

I stand by my statement. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ricky

Too many noobs deny the power of Roegadyn!

---

our tank is a midlander and does just fine. =)

So has anyone figured out how to consistently dodge every single Dive Bomb yet?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yenn

So has anyone figured out how to consistently dodge every single Dive Bomb yet?

---

There are ways.

Unfortunately, myself, and many of us cannot really disclose any of that information for the time being.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yenn

So has anyone figured out how to consistently dodge every single Dive Bomb yet?

---

If anyone knew they'd probably have the fight down by now :P. Would expect an actual working strat to be shown after 2-3 guilds have it down and feel like showing the world, until then it's basic work where top end guilds don't say anything unless world first has been claimed.

There's nothing unpredictable about the Dive Bombs, all the mechanics are controllable, especially Death Sentence; it is about communication between your tanks and your healers. Yes, SE does test in perfect ping/controlled settings as our friends in Blue Garter pointed out but there are ways of circumventing these issues if you adjust your strategy accordingly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yenn

How does precasting a heal stop simultaneous damage from Death Sentence + Liquid Hell? Simultaneous means at the same time. If the heal gets between them, that's sheer luck.

Either way, it's not common for it to happen, but it does happen.

---

How about Precasting Stoneskin and Adloquium when you know it's coming? Stoneskin plus a non-crit Adloquium will prevent ~2000 damage from even happening on a 6k PLD.

I mean honestly...people learned that stuff on Titan hard...you know Mountain Buster is coming, top him off and then do dmg mitigating skills that will cut down Mountain Busters to 1k dmg and even less. I had Mountain Buster hit for 0 on me with Stoneskin and a crit Adloquium.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ricky

Too many noobs deny the power of Roegadyn!

---

This.

Both our Pallys are Roegadyns :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grimwald

There's nothing unpredictable about the Dive Bombs, all the mechanics are controllable, especially Death Sentence; it is about communication between your tanks and your healers. Yes, SE does test in perfect ping/controlled settings as our friends in Blue Garter pointed out but there are ways of circumventing these issues if you adjust your strategy accordingly.

---

I believe this is a little disingenuous to the circumstances. I feel like anyone who has invested any substantial amount of time in the divebomb phase understands that they are entirely predictable. You can certainly stack the cards in your favor, but there are still a number of situations where you will be hit when you shouldn't have, or hit in extremely awkward directions (And to your certain death). There are a few keys to consistent survival, but I still do not believe the phase functions entirely as intended in that regard.

The next phase, on the other hand, is even worse in that sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dragonflyseksparade

uh.... welcome to mmos?

---

Very intelligent comment. Kudos to the three people who liked this, you are in the same boat.

Quote:

---

Also, I disagree on the "bashing your head" comment. Serious raiding is often about pushing against very difficult content and going forward step by step, just a little at a time. It's not easy, and it can take a long time, but that's how we like it.

---

This is a response worth answering to. Like I said I don't mind how it is right now. But there is a difference between "difficult" cause of flawed design and difficult cause it is difficult.
I cleared the hardest content in WoW ever among the best guilds in the world getting their step by step(Mu'ru, Kil'Jaeden, Mimiron HM, Yogg Saron+0 etc.). But the difference is...when we wiped we knew it was our fault cause we screwed up, not cause the encounter is retarded(I'm not refering to FFXIV here, just a general thing). People called FFXI hard(pre Abyssea)...nothing...literally NOTHING in XI was hard, it was just time consuming and people don't seem to get the difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xilrasis

I believe this is a little disingenuous to the circumstances. I feel like anyone who has invested any substantial amount of time in the divebomb phase understands that they are entirely predictable. You can certainly stack the cards in your favor, but there are still a number of situations where you will be hit when you shouldn't have, or hit in extremely awkward directions (And to your certain death). There are a few keys to consistent survival, but I still do not believe the phase functions entirely as intended in that regard.

The next phase, on the other hand, is even worse in that sense.

---

It does seem mildly inconsistent, but we've been chalking it up human error. They've obviously tried very hard to make this fight difficult and it shows - however I'm not sure if we (Noire) agree with the methods they used to make it difficult, especially with server communication never being Square-Enix's forte.