Nice face and tattoo selection.Quote:
Originally Posted by javid
Basically, it works like this:
Pal and War have the same static EHP. With 15% War healing in healing intense scenarios, Pal have 8.7% more EHP. At 0% healing, Pal have 25% more EHP. Yes, you could likely orient your entire raid around having a War tank something or, you could bring a Pal, and have a lot more flexibility or room to optimize. Pal have 2 (or arguably 3) tanking cooldowns that blow away everything a War has. Lining up an big IB is good and takes multiple cooldowns. A Pal clicks one CD and they do everything IB does only better and for an extended period of time and execute faster.
Pal are not invincible. They are not indestructible tanking deities who laugh as they are tickled by raid bosses. They are, however, undisputedly better at tanking than Warriors.
Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation
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09-19-2013, 11:55 PMCoramac
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09-19-2013, 11:57 PMHiirNoivlIt's not 5% either. XDDQuote:
Originally Posted by Surfie
So let's call it even Mmkay. And I didn't include DoTS from Fracture. Which I always Buff and put on for Max Damage. -
09-20-2013, 12:02 AMKitruFirst off, lemme throw down with some math, since that's apparently what you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by javid
Your own math is flawed (and the numbers themselves are wrong, but I'll move on to that later). A target with 40% DR and 5k hp has an effective hp of 8333, not 8000, which mean that you're wrong, unless you want to claim a margin of error of 300 hp (which is pretty damned big).
Secondly, for individual burst hits without any CDs factored in, a WAR and a PAL *do* have the exact same eHP. WAR gets 25% additional hp and PAL gets 20% DR, which increased eHP by 25%. The issue is not about these circumstances, however. The issue is in long term healing required and in individual burst mitigation with CDs factored in.
For long term healing required, PAL still has the 20% DR going for it, which is a 25% effective increase in incoming heals (the same amount of healing is acting upon 125% of the amount of incoming damage that another person would take; this is why tanks are tank and not just enmity machines). WAR only manages 15% at best. This means that WAR requires 8.7% more external healing than a PAL does. As to WAR self heals, PAL has a shield, which provides additional mitigation because they can block and reduce incoming damage by 20+% a helluva lot more often than a WAR can, which more than makes up for the self heals that WAR brings to the table (Inner Beast is the only really sizeable self heal and it comes at a very steep cost that actually makes it benefit neutral outside of immediate Infuriate use).
Now, when you look at eHP with CDs active, WARs also get the short stick. All of the PAL CDs are dramatic, effectively guaranteed, increases to eHP: Rampart and Sentinel are DR (20% and 40%, respectively), Convalescence is increased healing received (30%), and Bulwark is a massive increase to shield chance such that it's dramatically more common to block than it is to not (block = 20% mitigation; ~80% chance while active equates to 10% mitigation). WAR CDs are either not guaranteed, only useful over long periods of time, and/or pathetically weak: Bloodbath provides 25% of outgoing damage as self healing (only useful if used on CD since it only provides appreciable benefits over the entire 30 second duration), Foresight's increase in Defense is so marginal thanks to defense's DR that you can pretty much ignore it (20% defense = ~5% physical DR), Convalescence is smaller (WAR goes from 1.15x healing to 1.35x, which is a 17% increase, so it's nearly half of what a PAL gets), and Fleetfoot is unreliable (15% miss chance is nice, but it's nowhere near guaranteed). The only really good tank CD that WARs get is Thrill of Battle, which increases eHP without reducing healing required so it's only effective for the incredibly short term, and, even then, it's weaker than the weakest of the PAL DR CDs (20% increased hp is 16.7% effective DR) while also having a shorter duration.
The only advantage that the WAR CD suite has is that it is almost universally on a shorter CD or has a higher effective uptime, which is useful if you know how to use it. The problem is that the comparative weakness of the WAR CDs is generally heavily overshadowed by the dramatically decreased effectiveness of the CDs. Bloodbath is decent and Fleetfoot is useful if you keep it on CD, but Thrill of Battle and Foresight, the only "true" tank CDs that WARs get, are woefully underpowered compared to a PAL's. The only time that a WAR's will stack well against a PAL is if the PAL doesn't use their CDs (which I'll admit is generally true; most of the PALs I know of barely touch their CDs whereas I abuse the living crap out of my tank CDs, keeping half of them on CD at all times).
Inner Beast has an *effective* cooldown of 20 seconds, which is the time it takes to generate 5 stacks of Wrath again. On top of that, it comes at a *very* steep cost: it removes all of your Wrath stacks and, as such, reduces your healing received. Using Inner Beast on CD ends up having Wrath provide you with a mere 7% +healing instead of the +15% that is pretty much always assumed, which means that, for it to be beneficial, it needs to provide 180% of the healing you'd receive from your healer(s) in a single GCD. At 900 hp, unless your healer is only hitting you with 500 point Cures (mine are hitting for 800-900+), Inner Beast on CD is actually going to make it *harder* to heal you. The only time it gets better is if you have multiple major DPS CDs active, which isn't possible all the time since none of those have 100% uptimes and unreliable to boot (Berserk is the only one that is guaranteed so you *have* to crit, which is a coin flip, to make it effective).Quote:
just on those two steps alone you can heal yourself every 30 seconds & an extra heal every minute
The only really effective way to use Inner Beast, using it before immediately using Infuriate to get your stacks back, *is* on a CD: 60 seconds. Getting ~900 hp every 60 seconds is a pittance: when big hits are for in excess of 2k, you're talking about, effectively, 2.5 seconds of 45% or less DR every 60 seconds. You get more out of Convalescence. -
09-20-2013, 12:08 AMCoramacThis is individual burst hits only. There are few instances in any MMOs where burst is limited to a single hit rather than a combination of autoattacks with a special that happen in a short time span. Usually, the healers will be bombing the tank for this which will give the EHP edge to the Pal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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09-20-2013, 12:10 AMHiirNoivl
900~ HP... Is a pittance.
1700-2800 is not.
Look I understand that you've TRIED playing Warrior, but you stacked VIT, didn't deal much damage, didn't stack much enmity, couldn't heal yourself, couldn't survive, sucked Mana and made the healers rage quit.
I know because I made the same mistakes. But instead of giving up, I stepped back reassessed and gotten better at my job, to the benefit of myself and my parties.
I have 6770 and play better than I did with 8000. That's my story and I'm sticking to it until I see something INGAME that makes me feel differently. -
09-20-2013, 12:27 AMOndesvinwell javid, then tell me why a half geared Paladin can tank the current Content with hardly any problems, and a geared Warrior have huge troubles tanking the same content? give me an answer for that, we all know the inbalance is way out there and in huge favor for the paladin, and it will only get worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by javid
HiirNoivl give me a parse of you damage as a tank in Titan HM, for right now you are making assumption over your dps if you dont have a dps meter running it for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
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09-20-2013, 12:34 AMKitruAny PAL doing 60 DPS against a comparatively geared WAR that's doing 160 DPS has no idea what they're doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
First off, WAR and PAL weapons both do the same amount of damage so there is no equipment disparity; it's all based off of abilities.
Shield Oath applies a 20% reduction in damage dealt. Defiance applies a 25% reduction.
Berserk provides a 50% increase to all damage for 20 seconds and prevents any damage from abilities for 5 seconds thanks to Pacification on a 90 sec CD. This means that, for abilities, it provides a 5.56% increase in damage ((1.5 * 20 + 0 * 5 + 1 * 65) / 90). For auto-attacks, it provides an 11.11% increase in damage (.5 * 20 / 90) Fight or Flight provides 30% over its duration, and a 33.33% uptime. Berserk provides, over time, 5.56% increase in DPS to abilities and . Fight or Flight provides 10%.
Maim provides 20% additional damage on an effectively permanent basis. Storm's Edge, if you've got a WAR and PAL together, provides the benefit to both (both do slashing damage and it reduces the target's resistance to that damage), but it provides an 11.11% (1/.9) increase in damage.
PAL gets Circle of Scorn, which provides 250 potency every 25 seconds, and Spirits Within, which provides ~270 potency (assuming either an average 3.33 sec delay to get to max hp or averaging 90% hp using on CD) every 30 seconds. This averages out to 25 and 22.5 potency per GCD added to PAL.
The Halone combo (i.e. what PALs spam) provides 610 potency (150 + 200 + 260) over 7.5 seconds. The BB>SE combo string provides 1240 potency ((150 + 200 + 280) + (150 + 190 + 270)) over 15 seconds. These average out to 203.3 and 206.6 potency per GCD.
Auto-attacks have a default potency of 83.33 per GCD (auto-attacks deal weapon damage over 3 seconds which equates to potency 83.33 per GCD).
So, let's put it all together.
PAL (PAL tanking alone):
(203.3 + 25 + 22.5 + 83.33) * 1.1 * .8 = 294.03 average potency per GCD
PAL (PAL paired with WAR):
(203.3 + 25 + 22.5 + 83.33) * 1.1 * .8 / 0.9 = 326.70 average potency per GCD
WAR:
(206.6 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 * .75 / .9 = 310.6 average potency per GCD
So a PAL either does 94.66% of the damage that a WAR does or 105.2% of what a WAR does (close enough to call it "within 5%").
The only time that a WAR outdoes a PAL for damage is when they are tanking alone, and, even if they're tanking together, a PAL manages a *crapton* more threat because they get to spam their high enmity combo whereas a WAR has to alternate between their high enmity combo and a default combo.
So, yeah, it's a complete and utter fabrication that WARs do more damage than PAL. Hell, WAR is *worse* at enmity generation than a PAL thanks to being forced to use non-high enmity combos to maximize DPS. Anyone that claims that WARs have some kind of absurd DPS advantage compared to PALs is either mathematically incompetent or deluded.
P.S. Fracture only bump up the baseline ability potency per GCD to 213.85, which brings the end total up to 318.24. This would have a PAL doing either 92.40% or 102.65%. -
09-20-2013, 12:38 AMKitruIt's not individual burst hits explicitly. It's damage taken within a single GCD (which, admittedly, is how most big hits work), since that's the healing rate capability of a healer. A majority of the burst damage that tanks take end up being taken within a single GCD or a small number of GCDs where a healer is incapable of throwing out heals thanks to moving or other preventative methods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coramac
When you start increasing the number of GCDs, you're not talking about eHP but instead healing required, which, as previously mentioned, is a different construct. -
09-20-2013, 12:45 AMKitruFirst off, I take it as a bit of an insult that you automatically assume that I'm having a bitch of a time on my WAR. I'm not. I do quite well because I *do* know how to play a WAR effectively. I put all of my bonus attributes into Strength, because I *know* that it provides more than Vit does. It's a bit presumptive to tell someone that has shown you math that you're wrong that they're somehow making a crapton of newbie mistakes when it's pretty apparently that I actually know more about the class than you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
Secondly, if you can *regularly* manage a 1700-2800 Inner Beast, I will eat my shoe. The only way you're getting those numbers is by boosting it *heavily* with CDs and scoring a critical hit, none of which are even remotely close to reliable, not to mention that, because you're waiting for a CD to be up, it might as well be the one you're saving Infuriate to recover from. Hell, that's *exactly* how I use my Inner Beast.
The issue is that Inner Beast, used in such a way, is *not* a viable boost to mean mitigation. It's a reactive CD that requires a *shit-ton* of set up (compared to the default "click it and it does its job) and luck (since you really need that crit). I was pointing out that using Inner Beast as soon as you have it available means you're going to be *hurting* yourself.
Also, the 900 healing number came from you in the post I quoted from. If you want to correct the Inner Beast heal number I used, you might want to make sure that you're not correcting your own number. -
09-20-2013, 01:05 AMGlakan
This is what I don't get People put points into STR. Why? I'm serious why are you putting point into this stat?. Vit is mostly the way to go. I feel that most people go for STR because they see ooo I can parry more damage. YES but your parry has a chance to occur. If you don't parry that hit or dodge it you don't have a shield so what keeps you for being alive. Your defence and your HP, bigger health pool means that you can take a lot more hits. Yes you are spikier then a PLD but that is always been the case for non shield tanks in any MMO your healers just need to work around it. Use your CD correctly and just let the healers figure out how to heal you.
STR would be the way to go if you had a Parry chance of 100%. But it's not so you want to rely on defence and health pool to keep you alive. -
09-20-2013, 01:18 AMHiirNoivlExactly.............. *sigh* That's what I've been trying to tell you.Quote:
First off, WAR and PAL weapons both do the same amount of damage so there is no equipment disparity; it's all based off of abilities.
That's what you're supposed to do! Yes I can manage a regular 1700.... Geez, and it's not hard. You tell me "You can't do that!" Have you even TRIED? That's what you're supposed to do!Quote:
Secondly, if you can *regularly* manage a 1700-2800 Inner Beast, I will eat my shoe. The only way you're getting those numbers is by boosting it *heavily* with CDs and scoring a critical hit, none of which are even remotely close to reliable, not to mention that, because you're waiting for a CD to be up, it might as well be the one you're saving Infuriate to recover from. Hell, that's *exactly* how I use my Inner Beast.
Yes I do parse, yes I do practice. Yes that makes all the difference.
Are you buffing your Inner Beast? That's my biggest question. The lowest I get on Inner Beast is probably 1100 because I NEVER do a naked inner beast, but I regularly hit 1700. I'm dead serious. Particularly on single target bosses.
I shouldn't have to stand up here and be the one to prove this. I don't even put on all my stats into STR. If you do put all your attribute points into STR, why in the world aren't you getting bigger numbers than me? That's a question I have.
How can you sit here and say that WAR doesn't do much more DPS than PLD, that it's Self heals don't matter, and that it has almost no survivability when we're both doing the same content successfully and you have more STR?
I don't know where WARs are breaking down. At this point I'm at a loss. I can go out and I can parse and I can get all the big numbers and I can come here and post them, like I have. and people cry, "Lucky shot!" or "Cherry picker! Make a FRAPS video!"
No, it's not because of Parry, it's because of self Heals. Even with 20 points into STR, so long as I have VIT accessories I still have more HP than PLDs by about 1000 and I can self heal myself just fine. The problem with dumping all my stuff into VIT is that I couldn't self heal and I relied too much on Mages and it prolonged the fight and was a stress on people. Also, it hurt enmity I was gaining from my DPS abilities a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glakan
That extra 1000 HP cost a lot in the long run and really didn't help a lot. It doesn't matter if you have 8000 HP as a WAR. If you can't fill that HP pool you have no survivability. -
09-20-2013, 01:45 AMOndesvin1700 and you never use IB without a buff?, hmm do you even read what you write? can you be more full of Shit, if you never use IB when its not buffed you hardly ever use it and then we are back to not the 20 sec IB but 40 sec IB uses 1700 hp every 40 sec (2 crit IBs from IS and 1 no crit from Berserk). cant you see your logic are wrong, so god damn wrong, you are just throwing BS out to inflate something that dont make warriors more viable... god man i allmost think you are one of Devs, that made this mess to begin with...Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
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09-20-2013, 01:54 AMKitruYou're just all about reversing your position aren't you? You explicitly said that WAR does 3x the damage of a PAL. Are you saying that you were completely and utterly wrong now that you've been confronted with math?Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
You completely reverse your position every time someone contradicts you with math and then behave as if that was *always* your position when it's the exact opposite. You could at least *try* to maintain some dignity by admitting to the obvious.
Yes, I do. The issue is that you cannot *always* buff it. If you always wait to buff it, you'll have it up once every 90 seconds. You *cannot* claim that Inner Beast is somehow amazing when it only ever is *decent* once every 90 seconds. You will *not* get a 1700 Inner Beast every 30 seconds, which is your own number. You will get it every 90 seconds. If you compare Inner Beast to the *other* 90 sec CDs, it's friggin' terrible.Quote:
Are you buffing your Inner Beast?
You're not proving *anything* except that you have no idea what you're talking about. You're spinning in circles trying to justify your mathematically incorrect viewpoints and changing what you say every time you say something.Quote:
I shouldn't have to stand up here and be the one to prove this.
Are you reading *anything* that I'm saying or just trying to create a strawman in a vain attempt to make yourself look slightly less stupid than you've succeeded in doing thus far?Quote:
How can you sit here and say that WAR doesn't do much more DPS than PLD, that it's Self heals don't matter, and that it has almost no survivability when we're both doing the same content successfully and you have more STR?
I've explicitly proven that a WAR and PAL do, effectively, the same amount of damage, if not giving a *slight* edge to PAL.
I've never said that WAR self heals don't matter. They do. They do not, however, matter enough to offset the explicit mitigation disparity between PAL and WAR. The only thing that the normal self heals offset is PAL shield. The only thing that Inner Beast does is provide access to a decent 60-90 second CD that pales in comparison to the PAL CDs.
I've never said that a WAR has "no survivability". It does. It has *inferior* survivability compared to a PAL in numerous ways for numerous reasons with no actual advantages gained for the loss. WAR does effectively the same or slightly lower damage and requires more healing over time while having an inferior CD suite. WAR is, explicitly, a worse tank than PAL. It's not even up for debate any more. This is not the same as saying that you *cannot* run content on a WAR. WARs have been shown to complete all of the content that a PAL can. However, it takes more from both the party and the player for a WAR to complete said content than for a PAL to do so. PAL is both simpler to play *and* more effective. That's not balance.
A DPS increase isn't going to be balanced either since tanks aren't there for DPS; they're there to eat hits and the amount of DPS required to bring a WAR to equality with a PAL would require a WAR to hit as hard as a full on DPS.
It's also not as if it would be that hard to fix the existing issues with WAR: put a 10% passive increased healing on Defiance, fix Foresight so that it actually acts as a *real* tank CD, get rid of Storm's Path and put the self healing on Butcher's Block (so that you actually benefit from the self healing combo), and fix Steel Cyclone and Unleashed so that, rather than being completely worthless DPS increases that reduce a tank's survivability for an, at best, marginal increase in damage, they provide the explicit mitigation needs that are required (like having Unleashed consume Wrath stacks to provide 30% DR for 15 seconds and Steel Cyclone give you an absorb shield equal to the total damage dealt to all targets).
The reason that I play my WAR, knowing that it's worse than PAL, is because I *enjoy* playing WAR more. I've got PAL at 50, and it's boring as hell. WAR is fun. So I play it. It doesn't mean that the class doesn't have problems nor does it mean that it doesn't need to be fixed. -
09-20-2013, 02:02 AMAhlen
I'd also like to point out that the debuff on Rage of Halone is really, really good, and warriors have nothing similiar. (Oh boy 10% more slashing damage!)
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09-20-2013, 02:09 AMInosaskaDon't worry about it because knowing for the fact that they have to resort to them trying to be little my intelligence just doesn't give them a lot of credit in the long run and will probably give them a bad reputation later on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiteless
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09-20-2013, 02:23 AMKunkkaMy warrior can't be healed passed 2 stacks on turn 1 coil boss with full VIT but can farm titan just fine with full STR. Warrior is a tome farming class, might as well use it at what its good for and put points in STR. I'm just going to level a PLD to tank coil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glakan
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09-20-2013, 02:38 AMjavid
thx for the 6k correction. that is correct. But again why be insulting? "You understand how cooldowns work?" .....
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09-20-2013, 02:45 AMHachikoI agree with everything else you said, but in Shield Oath a PLD will be slightly lower in DPS than a WAR in defiance, but in Sword Oath a PLD will be doing more damage than a WAR out of defiance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
I think the funniest thing about WAR is they have all of this grandstanding. 2 damage dealing cooldowns! That's almost as many as a DPS class. Yet they all come at a huge cost (5 second pacification, 5 wrath stacks). And when you really look at them they're both like a 3-5% dps increase overall. Not to mention the fact that Unchained does nothing to buff Inner Beast damage either. Of course that's only available if you unchained + Infuriate anyway. Which is really too many cooldowns for a single heal.
That's sort of off the point. But yeah, WAR is ~8-16% higher in DPS than PLD if both are in their tank stance. PLD is higher out of tank stance. -
09-20-2013, 02:49 AMKitruI just did the math for *in* tank stance. It's a slight edge to PAL, and I've got *no clue* where you got the 8-16% number from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
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09-20-2013, 02:56 AMDuelleAgreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixteen
Depending on the effectiveness of the shield, you could possibly leave the +healing at 15%, but they definitely need to move it to Defiance rather than scaling with Wrath stacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahlen
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09-20-2013, 02:57 AMKunkkaI'd disagree that PLD has higher DPS than warrior if both are out of tank stance. Maim is good and PLD has no corollary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
Using DPS as a gauge can be misleading. While, on average, the difference between WAR and PLD tanking dps is negligible, the burst potential warrior has is unrivaled. In just over 20 seconds, a warrior has the potential to put out 6k damage if they pop every cooldown. Not really all that useful in most scenarios but it's nice to be able to down titan heart with 2 dps down. -
09-20-2013, 03:30 AMShyle
Considering that the dev team looked at other games for ideas and examples to make FFXIV more "current", they should really just look at what the Warrior is very close to in design, the DK Tank in terms of mitigation and self healing.
They have solid dps even while tanking, great aoe utility (what I'd do for a DnD for my warrior) and amazing self healing to buffer the lack of blocking.
I'm not saying just straight "copy" the class, but if Warriors are to have the ability to mitigate via self heals, we definitely need to have *more* ability to do so. The skills we have currently isn't sufficient enough from the sounds of it. Plus, much like Blood, they have mitigation built into the stance.
Maybe give Warriors additional passive defense via defiance (say 10%?), then a passive effect of an additional parry rating or passive health on strike (like a passive bloodbath) or rework the amount healed via storms path. -
09-20-2013, 03:31 AMmcfuzzi
Didn't it used to provide a shield back in one of the beta's? If so what was the reason it got changed. Even if they made using the same math it would be pretty cool, you could potentially give yourself a 1-2k stoneskin every time it was up.(just using the numbers i have seen floating in this thread, I,m only 27 so no idea what ib really does damage wise)
<edit> I fail at spelling -
09-20-2013, 03:45 AMWyndam
I had this big long post that I at least thought was insightful and then it got eaten by the 1000 character limit. Man. Oh well, in a nutshell...
Warriors need a buff but the sky isn't falling.
Marauders need a DPS oriented job so that people who just want to smash things with a greataxe can do so. I'm sure this is why warriors are seen as doing more damage.
If they want to buff Foresight to fix warrior problems, they need to do it by adding stuff to the Enhanced Foresight trait rather than changing Foresight directly to keep the changes out of the hands of other classes. -
09-20-2013, 03:52 AMEnglesynI second that motion!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndam
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09-20-2013, 04:14 AMKitruActually, PAL does have a corollary. In fact, it has 2: Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within. WAR Fracture provides 300 potency every 30 seconds (100 immediate + 10 tick of 20 potency). Circle of Scorn is on a 25 second CD and provides 250 potency. Spirits Within is on a 30 second CD and, as a DPS, should always be 300 potency. Both Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within are off GCD, so they can be used without hindering anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunkka
Now, if you want me to do the math (whee!)...
It's pretty much the same numbers as the tank stance stuff with a couple changes: WAR no longer has a .75 modifier and PAL loses the .8 modifier. On top of that, PAL gets some bonus potency in the form of Sword Oath and Spirits Within is used at max hp (since DPS doesn't take it to the face). Baseline potency per GCD of an autoattack is 83.33 (auto-attack / ((damage * delay) / GCD)). Sword Oath provides an additional 50 potency to each of those, such that PAL auto-attack is 133.33 additional potency. Bring in the previous formulas modified for the given values (using the Fracture math for WARs):
WAR:
(213.85 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 / .9 = 424.31
PAL:
(203.3 + 25 + 25 + 133.33) * 1.1 = 425.29
PAL (with WAR present):
(203.3 + 25 + 25 + 133.33) * 1.1 / .9 = 472.54
So a PAL does either 100.2% of what a WAR does or 111.37% while in their DPS set ups. PAL is explicitly better, but it's not by a massive amount when you get down to it. -
09-20-2013, 04:23 AMKitruCall it Barbarian and require PGL or LNC instead of GLA. Draw from PGL and LNC for additionals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndam
At 30, give them a stance (Battle Rage) that is just like Defiance only it reduces enmity generated and possibly increases damage. Have it provide a stacking buff (Fury) whenever you use a combo attack that increases auto-attack speed by 15%. At 5 stacks, you become Enraged.
At 35, give them an attack (Furious Blow) that consumes 5 stacks of Fury to deal a 600 (haven't done much DPS so this is just a "pulled out of my ass, seems like it's right" number) potency attack.
At 40, give them an ability (Undaunted) that consumes 5 stacks of Fury to regain 500 TP.
At 45, give them an ability (Fearsome Cry) with a 30 sec CD that silences all nearby enemies for 5 seconds.
At 50, give them an ability (Battle Cry) with a 60 sec CD that provides 5 stacks of Fury immediately.
Bam, you've got a DPS MAR job that thematically matches the WAR's progression. -
09-20-2013, 04:23 AMAhlenAlso can't fracture be cross classed by paladin? So they get ALL THREE?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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09-20-2013, 04:25 AMKitruThe additional version of Fracture only has an 18 second duration, which reduces the effective potency from 300 to 220 while also increasing the GCD consumption. It's a *very* slight DPS increase to use it. So small that it's effectively pointless to bring it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahlen
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09-20-2013, 04:30 AMHachikoI've done the math too. In tank stance a PLD will be at ~295 Potency, while a WAR will be ~312 Potency, without counting Berserk, Unchained, Internal Release, or Inner Beast. Without any of that, WAR has ~6% lead. If you add those things in, and use them on cooldown you can extend the lead to 18% or higher, but it comes at a high cost to the WAR and isn't realistic. I just made a (long) post on Reddit about it, I'd be happy to link it. (Note that I also considered PLD using fight or flight on Cooldown).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
This is slightly off. First, both circle of Scorn and Spirits Within work out to 25 Potency per 2.5, so I don't know where 20.8 comes from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Second, you're not normalizing sword oath and instead adding 50 potency to the auto attacks which you've normalized to 2.5 seconds. Using Curtana as an example, that means an additional 50 potency attack every 2.32 seconds, not every 2.5.
So Sword Oath will contribute ~53.9 potency per 2.5 second global.
This puts the PLD (solo) calculation at:
203.33 + 53.9 + 25 + 25 + 83.333 = 390.563
With Fight or Flight used on Cooldown, it works out to 429.619, which is already higher than the WAR before you add in Storm's Eye for the PLD. But with Internal Release and Berserk used on CD for the WAR they would slightly overtake the PLD, but still be lower than a PLD in a situation where a warrior is present and using storm's eye.
I'm not sure why you were multiplying by 1.05 (Fight or Flight is a 10% buff, averaged out). -
09-20-2013, 04:33 AMKitruIf you wouldn't mind, I'd like to see how/where our math deviates. My math is in this very thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
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09-20-2013, 04:44 AMKaliban
I think if we put the healing on Defiance, then with Stacks of wrath we can create a dmg mitigation % (increases with # of stacks) but make it somewhat less than PLD (thus keeping difference) and allowing Inner beast to stay as a heal but have it cost 2 wrath (or double the healing at 5 stacks). In this scenario, if you have 5 full stacks of wrath you have some dmg mitigation, and can use a heal without losing fully, but have to pick and choose when to use your heal (keep full stacks for a big hit, then use them for a bigger heal, then build up again to tank/spank). Seems like it would be best option. thoughts?
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09-20-2013, 04:46 AMShyleFFV had a class/job called Berserker ( http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/B...inal_Fantasy_V) ) where it was a 2h axe wielding job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
And if it's a dps class, maybe make the cross class lancer and archer (buffs). And give the old 1.0 warrior dps skills back to this class e.g. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Marauder -
09-20-2013, 04:56 AMCoramacNo, it is not a different construct. The problem is you are looking at static EHP which is insufficient and putting too much emphasis on "the burst." They're is no difference between Pal and War here. Typical fights throughout the past decade of MMOs have boss damage outputs that can be categorized roughly in terms of linear, small spike, and large spike. The large spike is not the real problem- by numbers posted on the forums, War can handle this. It is much more likely, as has almost always been the case, it is small and large spikes occurring in close proximity. The tank HP is never enough to sustain both. You need healing to get through these burst phases. It is more appropriate to approach HP in dynamic terms rather than simply claim it is a different issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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09-20-2013, 04:57 AMHachikoI went and looked at your math. I think the main difference is that you assumed Storm's Eye would be present for a PLD tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
But I'll also note that I assumed full health on Spirits Within while you seemed to assume ~70%ish.
Also your calculation for Berserk and Fight or Flight seem to be off. Berserk is more than 20% increase in damage (from my testing), and Fight or Flight averages out to 10% boost, not 5% (33.33% uptime, 30% bonus = 9.99 repeating). It's the best damage dealing cooldown in the game by a huge margin.
(also you should see the previous page for why PLD do more damage than you calculated, while not tanking).
EHP is a very different construct than Healing required to stay alive. For the purposes of overall durability it is more appropriate to approach it in dynamic terms, but in doing so it's also appropriate to consider other factors (i.e. block, parry, debuffs, etc.) as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coramac
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09-20-2013, 04:58 AMKitruDid you not read any of the explanations I did for the math beforehand? I used 250 for Spirits Within instead of 300 because, if you're using it on CD, you can't guarantee you'll always be at max hp. If you wait until you're at max hp, you're not using it on CD and, as such, are getting less out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
You don't have to normalize for attack speed. The attack speed math already does that. Sword Oath doesn't provide any more for a fast weapon than it does for a slow weapon. Potency is a percentage increase to damage dealt. 50 additional potency means that you're dealing 50% more (additional). If you swing twice as fast for half of the damage, getting 50% more damage adds up the same. The only way that you would get *more* damage out of a fast weapon rather than a slow one is if the damage added is flat, which Sword Oath is not. As such, regardless of the weapon you're using, Sword Oath increases the contribution from your auto attacks to 133 from 83.Quote:
Second, you're not normalizing sword oath and instead adding 50 potency to the auto attacks which you've normalized to 2.5 seconds. Using Curtana as an example, that means an additional 50 potency attack every 2.32 seconds, not every 2.5.
FoF provides 5% over time, not 10%. It's 30% while it's active with a 16.67% uptime (30 seconds every 180 seconds). Multiply that out and you get 5%.Quote:
I'm not sure why you were multiplying by 1.05 (Fight or Flight is a 10% buff, averaged out).
Edit: Just realized that the wiki I was using for info was using out of date stuff. The CD on FoF is 90 seconds, not 180, which is why it's 10%, not 5% like I was using.
I've done the DPS math for WAR and PAL twice. First was done for tank stances, and second for DPS-mode. I suggest you read up on them because I explained everything I did explicitly. -
09-20-2013, 05:02 AMZynnlol
go warrior buff Storm path too woot !
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09-20-2013, 05:06 AMHachikoI did read. I still prefer assuming 100% health rather than significantly less health for spirits within. But that's beside the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
You are wrong on Fight or Flight. It has a 33% uptime, not 16.667. http://xivdb.com/?skill/20/Fight-or-Flight
And second, you do have to normalize for sword oath. Sword oath adds a 50 potency hit on auto attack. Auto attacks happen more often than once every 2.5 seconds for a PLD. With Curtana (one of their slowest weapons) it's once every 2.32 seconds, which puts sword oath at ~54 potency every 2.5 seconds. You've normalized the auto attack contribution to 2.5 seconds, but you didn't normalize sword oath.
Auto Attack potency is (Delay / 3)*100. Sword oath will add 50 to that number, but that number will not always be 83.333 for a PLD.
Sword oath absolutely provides more for a fast weapon than a slow weapon. -
09-20-2013, 05:07 AMjavidPART 1 OF MOREyou're correct it's 8.33k EHP (4% error is a huge deal...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
I can tell if we sit down break this down one skill at a time; we'll get somewhere. but trying to debate every skills' potential against another all at once won't be done fairly.
So since you ended with Inner Beast lets revisit that one. -
09-20-2013, 05:08 AMWyndamFight or Flight is a 90 second cooldown, not 180. It lines up exactly with Bloodbath so I always use the two together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Side note. You're the same Kitru from the SWTOR forums, aren't you? Posted a bunch in the Jedi Shadow subforum?