Get rid of the prices in market search

The problem that you aren't addressing is that as a crafter - I make items for SP, not to sell. Selling is just a by product of me working to gain SP. The only constraint is how much retainer space I have to sell those items. Things that I can sell for more of a profit go to the retainer, less of a profit - and hence not worth the inventory space get vendored. I sell cheap because I need to keep turning over the space in my inventory so that I can keep crafting. The actual selling price is only part of my "profit", the other part is the SP.

This will always drive prices down, because for crafters at <50 there is inherent value in producing just to produce, and hence prices are not drive by cost of material/time. I don't care if you have some averaging system, then I'll just undercut significantly more because I NEED to turn over my inventory space through either vendoring or MW. The gil is just a by product of me putting my most valuable crafting synths in the wards rather than through the vendor. Out of the items I craft, some will always have a higher value than others and end up in the MWs at cheap prices.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Then I come along and put mine up for 7960 to show him that undercutting isn't cool.

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No.... you just made the situation worse, thats like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.

Sounds to me you want to under cut just as much as the next guy, just you want to be the only one who can.

It's not undercutting that is the problem. That only becomes obvious when the supply is greater than the demand. Nobody is buying so the prices go down and down. If there was a way, say... everytime to remove items and equipment from the game then the demand would go up. Every time someone would buy an item, it would be removed from the market, essentially.

If there was an auction house... And items were bound to you or something. Then once an equipment is 'used' it can no longer be recycled. There would always be a need for that item. The guy who bought it from you for 10k wont go and sell it for 5k and crash the market because he cant. He will just have to go and buy the next item... for whatever price.

Anyway.. just my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Ceons

It's not undercutting that is the problem. That only becomes obvious when the supply is greater than the demand. Nobody is buying so the prices go down and down. If there was a way, say... everytime to remove items and equipment from the game then the demand would go up. Every time someone would buy an item, it would be removed from the market, essentially.

If there was an auction house... And items were bound to you or something. Then once an equipment is 'used' it can no longer be recycled. There would always be a need for that item. The guy who bought it from you for 10k wont go and sell it for 5k and crash the market because he cant. He will just have to go and buy the next item... for whatever price.

Anyway.. just my thoughts.

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I think I understand what you're trying to say here and I personally disagree with this idea.

Yea that's cool. :)

There was a thread somewhere about removing items from the game though. I think something like that would be helpful in maintaining a demand for in game items.

Look don't attack me because i somewhat offend you some how all am saying there no need to take the price off the market that the dumbest idea anyone can come up with. I don't want to waste 20-30min going to each NPC and then putting it down then go and remember which one was the low in cost item. This is the reason they add the price on it to start with so there no turning back

The End

I agree with Ceons in what she/he was hinting at and thats to make all armor and weapons bind to a character, this means that once you try on a piece of armour you permentantly remove it from the market place.

Its the only way I can see to create a stable supply and demand chain.

Obviously this doesn't solve the issue with gathered or farmed items, but the guild task's are doing this to a small degree and with any luck SE will build upon this.

If you don't like prices going down....screwing with information available in a display is not how to fix that. SE should create something to do with the items - this would stabilize their prices. Right now there is a huge influx of harvested mats, dropped mats, and mats and gil from quests and NMs. But there is no process by which those leave the market permanently except repairs (a little bit of loss), and broken synths (minimal loss). If you keep increasing supply, with no demand then what do you expect. People will keep undercutting until the sell in mw price = sell to vendor price.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I agree with Ceons in what she/he was hinting at and thats to make all armor and weapons bind to a character, this means that once you try on a piece of armour you remove it from the market place.

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If you're gonna do that, then instead we should just up gear damage and take stuff out of the system that way. Repair once or twice only, and then crap it's broken for good and toss it.

I suspect when we see the adjusted crafting system we'll see something like - when I fuse materia to my armor it becomes untradeable, and I can't unfuse it to free up the slots. So if I change my mind I have to go find new base armor and new materia to fuse to it or some such. I think this could potentially eat up a lot of gear.

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Originally Posted by Naylia

If you're gonna do that, then instead we should just up gear damage and take stuff out of the system that way. Repair once or twice only, and then crap it's broken for good and toss it.

I suspect when we see the adjusted crafting system we'll see something like - when I fuse materia to my armor it becomes untradeable, and I can't unfuse it to free up the slots. So if I change my mind I have to go find new base armor and new materia to fuse to it or some such. I think this could potentially eat up a lot of gear.

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I did think about that also and the problem with that is what happens when your precious end game gear becomes broken and vaporises into thin air, I would imagine a lot of players would be a little annoyed to say the least if that were to happen.

I like the idea of an item being bound upon infusing it with materia, of course they could allow players to remove materia via npc (for a cost - new gil sink) which could make everyone happy. Just to be clear when I say remove materia I don't mean restore it to its tradeable form.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I did think about that also and the problem with that is what happens when your precious end game gear becomes broken and vaporises into thin air, I would imagine a lot of players would be a little annoyed to say the least if that were to happen.

I like the idea of an item being bound upon infusing it with materia, of course they could allow players to remove materia via npc (for a cost - new gil sink) which could make everyone happy. Just to be clear when I say remove materia I don't mean restore it to its tradeable form.

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This is actually a very good idea. I wonder if they have this in mind?

This would both keep items returning to market from falling below the cost required to make them, as a player would want to recoup the costs incurred by removing the materia, and keep a constant demand of items that aren't worth removing the materia.

(OP) Xenor,

Horrible idea. -1 to Thread.

Bad idea.

Keep the price listing. Add the ability to show +1, +2, and +3 items. Increase the list to show at least 50 items at once. Add a price history that goes back at least a year. Give me the option to purchase directly from the item search window if I want to.


@OP, if you aren't selling your stuff, you're not listing them at the proper market value. I've made millions of gil selling stuff, and I don't have a crafting class over R30.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I did think about that also and the problem with that is what happens when your precious end game gear becomes broken and vaporises into thin air, I would imagine a lot of players would be a little annoyed to say the least if that were to happen.

I like the idea of an item being bound upon infusing it with materia, of course they could allow players to remove materia via npc (for a cost - new gil sink) which could make everyone happy. Just to be clear when I say remove materia I don't mean restore it to its tradeable form.

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But making materia infused gear could be a way to make gil. If you can only own an item and do nothing else with it after infusing it (unless you go get it removed like in your example), that would really break off the entire market for that kind of thing, removing an aspect that could be considered a way to actually keep selling all the gear people make. If it's all the same base stats with slight alterations due to materia, I could see there being a market for those things. And there would still be a market for the uninfused kind because people would want to buy them in order to infuse them and try to make something better and different to sell.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Bad idea.

Keep the price listing. Add the ability to show +1, +2, and +3 items. Increase the list to show at least 50 items at once. Add a price history that goes back at least a year. Give me the option to purchase directly from the item search window if I want to.


@OP, if you aren't selling your stuff, you're not listing them at the proper market value. I've made millions of gil selling stuff, and I don't have a crafting class over R30.

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Price history is a terrible idea in my honest opinion. Otherwise I'm okay with the rest of your statements. I also want to add I think they need to add it so that we can see what people are buying as well. I think that's a better alternative for a price history.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ancement-Ideas

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

Price history is a terrible idea in my honest opinion. Otherwise I'm okay with the rest of your statements. I also want to add I think they need to add it so that we can see what people are buying as well. I think that's a better alternative for a price history.

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Price history hehe, i doubt people would want price history, bad for consumer, good for seller. Price history has nothing to do with current supply and demand. I used to sell +7 stat rings at 150k, now theyre down at like 20k-40k, some items such as bows used to sell for a mill for NQs and are now at like 200k. I'de love price history but thats biased since im a supplier not a consumer =p

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

Price history is a terrible idea in my honest opinion.

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Price history allows both buyers and sellers to see clearly what the real market value for any given commodity is, which leads to easier and more satisfying transactions due to less uncertainty. If it shows the buyers and sellers' names, you can see if anyone is trying to artificially manipulate the price. If it goes back a year or more, you can see any anomalies in the market value quite clearly as they will stand out from the general trendlines.

More transparency leads to a more open and fair market exchange. Information that is easily accessible to everyone lets everyone have the necessary knowledge to trade well, not just the insiders.

The more hidden and mysterious the system is, the more like it is that only a few people will be good enough to play it properly, benefiting the few at the expense of the many.

Price histories can be manipulated very easily, and can place more value on an item that there should be.

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Originally Posted by AngryNixon

Xenor you make the assumption, perhaps in error, that impatience is not a valid factor in the market place. Walmart screws small businesses like this all the time by "rolling back" their prices. They don't give a shit and just want to move their stuff asap. There are more complex reasons why they can charge what they do but for this example that's not important. They are willing to make a few cents less on the retail tag to move their goods faster. People who undercut you buy 10 gil just want to move their goods first, because they don't care enough to match your lowest price (assuming it is the lowest on the top 20 list, and if it isn't you're not in the game anyhow so who cares), and potentially have to wait a while longer to move the item.

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Stop trying to compare the real world to a game economy. There's some similarities but not everything is the same. There's nowhere I can go to in this country where I can bring up a list of what price every shop in the city is selling a product for. The shops aren't all in the same location either so even if I could save 10 pence on my £50 product it may not be worth walking 3 miles for. There's no shopping around for the best deal in this game, you're just told what the cheapest shop is and that shop is right in front of you so no distance to factor in.

Your idea could work if all market wards were linked and people were evenly spread throughout the world because then you'll have to ask yourself if it's worth travelling to Gridania to save 10 gil. But that's not how this game works.

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Originally Posted by Naylia

The problem that you aren't addressing is that as a crafter - I make items for SP, not to sell. Selling is just a by product of me working to gain SP. The only constraint is how much retainer space I have to sell those items.

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Woah, people still try to sell their skill up items in the wards? I'm not talking about junk here. I'm talking about items that have value. You think I'd try to sell the 2500 walnut masks I'm making to take my CRP 40-50? No chance in hell, that's at least four for every player on the server and that's just my junk.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Look don't attack me because i somewhat offend you some how all am saying there no need to take the price off the market that the dumbest idea anyone can come up with. I don't want to waste 20-30min going to each NPC and then putting it down then go and remember which one was the low in cost item. This is the reason they add the price on it to start with so there no turning back

The End

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If you want to spend half an hour to save 10 gil that's up to you, but most people will pay the average price and follow the logic of time = money and make way more than 10 gil with their time. I never suggested make the whole system blind so that it's easy to rob you. XI doesn't list current prices and people don't *** and cry about that.

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Originally Posted by Naylia

If you don't like prices going down....screwing with information available in a display is not how to fix that. SE should create something to do with the items - this would stabilize their prices. Right now there is a huge influx of harvested mats, dropped mats, and mats and gil from quests and NMs. But there is no process by which those leave the market permanently except repairs (a little bit of loss), and broken synths (minimal loss). If you keep increasing supply, with no demand then what do you expect. People will keep undercutting until the sell in mw price = sell to vendor price.

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I agree something needs to be done about the supply. Raw materials are way too common, this means the only ones that have value are those skilled on like yew and walnut. Supply should be cut way down when there's no massive demand for it. This may well solve the problem of undercutting, making things rarer. But I believe I've talked about that already.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

@OP, if you aren't selling your stuff, you're not listing them at the proper market value. I've made millions of gil selling stuff, and I don't have a crafting class over R30.

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Erm, did you read the thread? What is the proper market value then? Whatever I list my *** as - 10 gil? If I list my *** at 10 gil less some rag will come along and list their *** at 10 gil less than that. I list my *** based on the demand, market price and who is undercutting me.


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That's the last time I'm making a massive response to cover everyone's points in this thread. I get it, removing prices is unpopular with consumers because they want items to hit rock bottom prices as fast as possible. Instead I'll focus ideas on how to cut supply so that items are often out of stock in the wards, that way if someone undercuts you it doesn't matter because your shit will eventually sell.

I am against any form of "bind on equip" because it kills the market for anything that isn't end-game material. I'm not going to pay a million for a +3 rank 30 weapon for example if I'm forced to NPC it when that rank 38 weapon becomes better than it. If I can't get that million back I'm sticking with NQ.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

That's the last time I'm making a massive response to cover everyone's points in this thread.

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Just as well really because the more you post the more it sounds like you want to be some fat cat who sits there and monopolises the rest of us, no thanks.

+ 10000000 for price history

If SE truely want to create a stable economy they best employ a professional econimist to help them out, they can go over the finer things such as rewards from guildleves, rarity of gathering items and a way to create a stable but user friendly market system.

FFXIV biggest downfall is there is no removal of armour and weapons from the market, the one and only truely good gil sink is also bypassable due to repairs being administered by crafters for minimal cost.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Erm, did you read the thread?

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Erm, yes.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

What is the proper market value then?

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That's for you to figure out based on past price history, current server market trends, and knowledge of the supply of other goods.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Whatever I list my *** as - 10 gil? If I list my *** at 10 gil less some rag will come along and list their *** at 10 gil less than that. I list my *** based on the demand, market price and who is undercutting me.

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Why bother quibbling at -10 gil? Lower that price by 1k, if not 5k or 10k. If that price is not worth it to you, don't even bother selling the item and move on to something else. Eventually there's a point where it's not worth it to sell at a lower price than is economically feasible for you. If that happens to be lower than your competitors, great. If not, just move on and wait till that item is hot again.

If you thing you're getting shafted because people are selling stuff at a much lower price than what you want to sell it for, then news flash: it's probably not worth as much as you think it is, and just because it may have cost you a lot of gil or time to gather/make, that doesn't mean that it cost as much to someone else.

Prices of items should stay, but price history is a bad idea. Items should sell for what the market is today and now. The price should be based on supply and demand, not what someone else paid a week or a month ago.

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Originally Posted by Ceons

Prices of items should stay, but price history is a bad idea. Items should sell for what the market is today and now. The price should be based on supply and demand, not what someone else paid a week or a month ago.

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It's difficult to know what the fair market price is "today and now" if you don't know what it sold for in the past and what the current trend lines are.

The fair price is "I have it, I'm selling it for this much. Either based off of what other people are selling it for now, or based off the fact that no one is selling it currently."

That makes a lot of sense to me. o.o

I'd like to see the ability to do item searches from your retainer so that you can more easily set prices myself. But yeah undercutting will happen in any MMO economy.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

FFXIV biggest downfall is there is no removal of armour and weapons from the market, the one and only truely good gil sink is also bypassable due to repairs being administered by crafters for minimal cost.

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That will change when the materia system is implement. as yoshida stated, socketed items will become untradable. Thus it will end up being vendored once youre done with it, If you socket it with materia.

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Originally Posted by Ceons

Prices of items should stay, but price history is a bad idea. Items should sell for what the market is today and now. The price should be based on supply and demand, not what someone else paid a week or a month ago.

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The price of an item is a composite of variables, not one or the other alone.

Well, price is determined fairly well without the price history. In the case of no items up, and no comparison to be made... the person selling the item makes a judgement based on how much they think they can possibly get from this item. Because its already in low supply, it makes sense this price would be a little higher than normal. I don't think anything else is really needed to determine prices.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

Well, price is determined fairly well without the price history. In the case of no items up, and no comparison to be made... the person selling the item makes a judgement based on how much they think they can possibly get from this item. Because its already in low supply, it makes sense this price would be a little higher than normal. I don't think anything else is really needed to determine prices.

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Or perhaps the item just plain sucks and no one wants it. A price history would have told the player that easily instead of the player putting up a useless item for sale.


Or perhaps the player doesn't really know what the market rate should be since he doesn't know what the demand is and how useful/useless the item is. Perhaps he puts it up too high and no one buys it. Perhaps he puts it up too low and gets shafted. A price history would have easily give the player enough info to let him decide quickly and easily, without the hassle of guess and check.

Gold sellers and buyers cause the prices to skyrocket beyond what an honest person can pay. Other than that, all's fair in Walmart.

Honestly, I rarely look at prices or history, I just put it up for what I want. Which is hundreds if not thousands less then what other people will put it up for (I'll see that when I'm looking to buy). I don't need that much gil, and I'd rather make someone's day. Of course, someone could be buying it up and reselling it, but I got the price I wanted.

On the flip side, if someone is selling something for what I think is too much, I will not buy it. I'll either shop until I find a price I agree on, or wait until I can make it myself. I do the same thing irl, I won't buy something if I think it's overpriced.

A lot of people are just too greedy, I think. In a game no less. Plus, someone has to have the lowest price. You can't just expect everyone to sell it for the same as you, hoping the customers will pick your store. That's not the way economy works.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Or perhaps the item just plain sucks and no one wants it. A price history would have told the player that easily instead of the player putting up a useless item for sale.


Or perhaps the player doesn't really know what the market rate should be since he doesn't know what the demand is and how useful/useless the item is. Perhaps he puts it up too high and no one buys it. Perhaps he puts it up too low and gets shafted. A price history would have easily give the player enough info to let him decide quickly and easily, without the hassle of guess and check.

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lol. So true. Seems the going assumption is "my items is great, why won't anyone buy it for the price I've listed it at randomly, surely my powers of deduction based on nothing are infallible. It must be everyone else's fault that my item didn't sell. change the system."

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Originally Posted by Chezen

Gold sellers and buyers cause the prices to skyrocket beyond what an honest person can pay. Other than that, all's fair in Walmart.

Honestly, I rarely look at prices or history, I just put it up for what I want. Which is hundreds if not thousands less then what other people will put it up for (I'll see that when I'm looking to buy). I don't need that much gil, and I'd rather make someone's day. Of course, someone could be buying it up and reselling it, but I got the price I wanted.

On the flip side, if someone is selling something for what I think is too much, I will not buy it. I'll either shop until I find a price I agree on, or wait until I can make it myself. I do the same thing irl, I won't buy something if I think it's overpriced.

A lot of peole are just too greedy, I think. In a game no less. Plus, someone has to have the lowest price. You can't just expect everyone to sell it for the same as you, hoping the customers will pick your store. That's not the way economy works.

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How dare you bring common sense into this.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Woah, people still try to sell their skill up items in the wards? I'm not talking about junk here. I'm talking about items that have value. You think I'd try to sell the 2500 walnut masks I'm making to take my CRP 40-50? No chance in hell, that's at least four for every player on the server and that's just my junk.

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That's why as I've ranked up my Carpenter to 30, I have never made a single mask. I've made lots of javelins and arrows and I sell every single one. If you choose to grind on something that has no market value, that's not my fault. As long as I can sell for 26 gil / arrow or mre to cover the cost of supplies then I'm happy, and I'll keep reducing my prices down to 26 gil / arrow to make sure my inventory turns over quick. If prices fall below 26 gil / arrow, then I'll move on to a different synth that will sustain me buying replacement mats so that I can keep synthing without taking a loss.

And you could easily apply the same to DoL - where everything they collect is while earning SP. So ranking up, once again introduces lots of excess supply into the game that people want to get rid of.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Erm, did you read the thread? What is the proper market value then? Whatever I list my *** as - 10 gil? If I list my *** at 10 gil less some rag will come along and list their *** at 10 gil less than that. I list my *** based on the demand, market price and who is undercutting me.

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If they keep undercutting you, and you keep undercutting them, and no one has bought either item yet -> then you sure haven't reached market equilibrium yet.

Lots of competition drives prices and profit down to the point where price = cost. You should never expect to make a bunch of money selling commodities in a free market. There's always someone out there who is reducing the cost of production and will undercut you.

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Originally Posted by Naylia

If they keep undercutting you, and you keep undercutting them, and no one has bought either item yet -> then you sure haven't reached market equilibrium yet.

Lots of competition drives prices and profit down to the point where price = cost. You should never expect to make a bunch of money selling commodities in a free market. There's always someone out there who is reducing the cost of production and will undercut you.

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Very wise Naylia is.

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Originally Posted by AngryNixon

Very wise Naylia is.

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Very wise, indeed.

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Originally Posted by Naylia

That's why as I've ranked up my Carpenter to 30, I have never made a single mask. I've made lots of javelins and arrows and I sell every single one. If you choose to grind on something that has no market value, that's not my fault.

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This, as a weaver I only grind on making cloth and yarn, this way I can easily sell it with little loss, or just stockpile it for later use.

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Originally Posted by Naylia

Lots of competition drives prices and profit down to the point where price = cost. You should never expect to make a bunch of money selling commodities in a free market. There's always someone out there who is reducing the cost of production and will undercut you.

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The only real "cost" in this game is time. And people will have different ideas of what their time is worth. Which is probably why folks like Xenor keep getting their prices undercut. He seems to think his time is very valuable. But some people don't care that much about making money. They play the game to have fun, and they happen to pick up stuff while having fun. They know other people can have fun by using that stuff, so they're willing to give it to them for super cheap.

Which is why I usually end up giving most of my mats away. For free. Because I'm a terrible crafter, and I know people are spending millions of gil and hundreds of hours leveling away at crafting ... because they enjoy it. So if I can help them have fun, and it doesn't really cost me anything, then I'm willing to give it away for free.

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Originally Posted by VydarrTyr

The only real "cost" in this game is time. And people will have different ideas of what their time is worth. Which is probably why folks like Xenor keep getting their prices undercut. He seems to think his time is very valuable. But some people don't care that much about making money. They play the game to have fun, and they happen to pick up stuff while having fun. They know other people can have fun by using that stuff, so they're willing to give it to them for super cheap.

Which is why I usually end up giving most of my mats away. For free. Because I'm a terrible crafter, and I know people are spending millions of gil and hundreds of hours leveling away at crafting ... because they enjoy it. So if I can help them have fun, and it doesn't really cost me anything, then I'm willing to give it away for free.

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This. The only "real" thing in a video game is someone's time. How you value that affects how you make many of your choices, not the least of which is the markets in an MMO (any MMO). Most items are priced according to time or some variable that is a function or derivative of time (eg. rarity).

If you're a nice guy like Vydarr who does not have a serious or high valuation of his time (because this is a video game after all and video games are, or are supposed to be, a leisure activity), then he and others like him will always have a cheaper price than those like Xenor who fundamentally disagree on the respective values of their time.

Undercutting happens in part, not in whole, because some people simply don't care all that much. I'm in the don't care boat with Vydarr. I often just dump things to NPCs but sometimes give mats away, or price items I make or come across very cheaply because I just want to unload them (mostly because I'm a bit neurotic about inventory management and I hate clutter). My prices will always be cheaper than Xenor's and I will always undercut people like him because (a) I might think his price is just high so there is no way I'd bother matching it or (b) again, I just don't care enough to do a serious and thorough valuation of my time as it relates to that item. It is partially because of this that undercutting will always happen.

The mismatch here between those who get bent out of shape about this issue and those who simply could care less will always cause a bit of friction. The important part in this is that that friction exists on the side of the person who cares about this issue. For the rest of us, it's all good, keep on undercutting and keeping those inventories neat and clean..

I honestly think prices should stay, it's a matter of buyer convenience. It takes us back to how things were before where someone could sell an item at ridiculous prices because they were the first person the buyer saw. The system is pretty good as is but a few other things need to be added.

-Differentiation of NQ, +1, +2, +3.

-Average Price.

-Possibly link them as a global wards system. This is something I know people want, I could do with or without it.

Undercutting is something that just happens. You can either deal with it or not participate in the wards. Whenever I sell things in games I tend to find the lowest price and sell AT that price. I generally don't care about making the most money off of something, I just want it sold.

Also if prices drop too low, noone would bother making them. So, the most effecient players, or those willing to make less, will eventually dominate selling... which is a good thing.

Curious thing Arcell raises about +1 +2 +3's not being searchable. While the point he/she is making is a dead horse of the highest order, I actually don't think you can even arrive at a discussion of prices being listed in the market search until that other issue is resolved because the information you're getting is essentially garbage information since it's really a random mush of 4 different item qualities when you search any particular item ie. the values you are getting are not necessarily meaningful and are actually sometimes misleading. For example: Market Ward Betty comes along and wants to list her Godly Plate of the Whale, she searches and only finds one listed at 1 bajillion gil, so, being the savvy somewhat impatient person she is, she lists it for 1 bajillion gil. Little does she know that was actually a +3 that she searched so her NQ Godly Plate of the Whale is in fact grossly over priced.

Just a thought.