A Little Pain with my Pleasure

I don't mind exp lost when you die i can care less what they do with death lol.

See this is where trying to apply real-world logic to the game world fails. You're either prepared enough to go the whole way and turn the game into a realistic simulation of what medieval combat would be, or it fails at a certain point.

Losing experience on death or losing item durability on death can both be tuned so that they require the same amount of time investment from the player to recoup. The problem with losing experience is that there is a buffer there that once passed, the player loses a level and becomes massively unuseful for the rest of the group. Because of experience caps, you cannot spend hours/days/weeks/months farming up experience before hand so that you can continue your end-game raid after you die a few times.

Item durability gives diligent players the choice to invest the time before the raid. With proper tuning in difficulty and item durability repair cost, the devs can achieve the same amount of farm time per death as through exp loss.

To claim it must be either real combat or ffxiv is a ridiculous fallacy and simplification of the issue, there are tons of others games that have the same system without turning into a medieval combat simulator.

People, the horse is glue. We aren't getting xp loss. It's not happening. Get over it.

Just punch yourself in the face when your character gets K.O'd to simulate the negative effect.

IMMERSION! :D

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Originally Posted by Xeonerable

Just punch yourself in the face when your character gets K.O'd to simulate the negative effect.

IMMERSION! :D

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lmao

/10char

or some electroshock device synced with the game.
hardcore 2.0.
EXP loss is for sissies.
(i just realized this even relates more to the title)

When I die, I want to restart at level -0

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Originally Posted by MyKotoShi

When I die, I was to restart at level -0

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When I die, I want SE to delete my character data!!

This is just a terrible idea.

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Originally Posted by KaiserDrill

Xp loss upon death is fine with me. Deleveling, on the other hand, is not.

If you were 1500/10000 at level, say, 10 and you died a few times, you would lose a certain amount of xp until you hit 0/10000 but never drop to a lower level. I think thats a good compromise.

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It would feel like a death penalty to somebody that is not max level, but once a person is max level it would not feel like a penalty to them. XP loss upon death will not work in this type of a mmo where you have tough fights like ifrit Extreme, again not sure if ARR will have hard battles like ifrit Extreme but I hope they do and mostly likely will, but if a group of people is learning a hard fight such as ifrit extreme than xp loss on death would not work. The current system is fine.

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Originally Posted by EinSoFZ

Saying that is trying to apply realistic logic to a fantasy game, which isn't realistic to begin with. One could argue that a player who gets knocked out is demonstrating their lack of skill and therefore gets demoted in a way if we were to go that route (which I wouldn't since like I said...). I still think it's funny people have no issue with the tedious nature of gear damage, but get all pissy over losing exp they can gain back by killing 2 monsters....

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The game is a fantasy game yes, that doesn't mean that you can't be realistic with alot of things. People have opinions about breast size and physics that make the game more realistic. Would you rather see the word "parry" or would you rather see your character actually parry with animation or both? it's all a matter of opinion and it's my opinion that losing experience isn't the best or most realistic way to penalize death. I don't see alot of people quoting actual character death and mandatory deletion comments.

All in all to me, gear damage represents a failure to block, parry dodge successfully enough to prevent death thus damaging your gear and thus giving crafts something meaningful to do besides grinding out endless things to level or make gil. This again is just a matter of opinion though, I respect everyone's opinion.

I remember XP loss from games as far back as PnP D&D. However it wasn't the death that caused the XP loss, it was getting the soul back into your body.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

The funny thing is, XP is so easy to get in MMOs today that there's far worse death penalties people are ok with, which is ironic and sad at the same time.

But that's your new age MMORPG gamer for you, never thinking.

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Going to agree for once. I've been playing FFXI lately, and given Abyssea's EXP rates I'm less bothered by EXP loss than I ever was by repair costs. At least going back to Dominion Ops in XI seemed a more exciting task than going through the clunky 1.0 interface to repair each item, let alone pay gil over it.

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Originally Posted by Yrusama

Going to agree for once. I've been playing FFXI lately, and given Abyssea's EXP rates I'm less bothered by EXP loss than I ever was by repair costs. At least going back to Dominion Ops in XI seemed a more exciting task than going through the clunky 1.0 interface to repair each item, let alone pay gil over it.

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Yeah i'd rather have a death penalty than gear repair that is beyond stupid. Comparatively speaking you get killed mid battle a couple times in GW2 and then you're running around the battle field naked.

edit: grammar

sooo.. let me get this straight hardcore endgame content where you would wipe against a boss like 20 times while learning the fight is okay because of exp loss... exp loss is a bane against any progression game... that would piss me off I would rather have to have a repair fee then exp loss...

All I want is for death to be something players don't scoff at.

XIV treats death as it was nothing, repairs are only inconvient due to UI issues, there is nothing to fear from death and no real penalty for it. Why play good when you can just bash your head into the wall until it works. The lenient death penalties has pretty much been soley responsible for every challenging fight/raid in the game being conqured fully within a day or two happen.

People just keep throwing things at the wall until something sticks instead of thinking ahead.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

All I want is for death to be something players don't scoff at.

XIV treats death as it was nothing, repairs are only inconvient due to UI issues, there is nothing to fear from death and no real penalty for it. Why play good when you can just bash your head into the wall until it works. The lenient death penalties has pretty much been soley responsible for every challenging fight/raid in the game being conqured fully within a day or two happen.

People just keep throwing things at the wall until something sticks instead of thinking ahead.

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Agreed. The penalties are there to make you think before doing something, to actively avoid death, vs it just being some temporary nuisance. The problem is people will call it "taking away their fun"

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Originally Posted by Jynx

People just keep throwing things at the wall until something sticks instead of thinking ahead.

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Yeah they should think and then throw things at the wall until something sticks!

And then when it sticks, stay with that strategy and NEVER EVER leave it or bother trying anything new because you might DIE

serious lols@ the ridiculous notion that an XP loss death penalty will encourage people in this game to play better. what planet are you guys from? it's like you've never played this game or interacted with the community before.

people are already terrified of doing anything in fights with environmental hazards and hold back quite a lot as a result. making death even more unforgiving will only exacerbate this problem. as for the people playing at a higher level, this won't slow them down in the slightest in their quest for first kills as they'll know XP is easy enough to get, and free.

it's funny how skewed the perception is about how endgame LSs operate. "derrr they just zerg and zerg for 200 hours until they beat it. this will make them less reckless!" first of all, if you've ever been in a LS on the bleeding edge of content, you'd understand that hitting us in the wallet hurts quite a lot more than hitting us in the XP bar. it sucks and we hate it, but it still won't stop us. and secondly, you're attempting to set up artificial roadblocks for people on the edge of progression content so they have to slow down (to get back xp), which is silly and ridiculous as you're punishing them more for beating content before you and hammering out strats that you later use safe carbon copies of so you'll fail (and die) as little as possible.

tl;dr if xp loss death penalties actually worked at making players better, why are the vast majority of XI-turned-XIV players so bad? and why do the best players tend to be the ones with endgame experience in games without an xp loss death penalty?

I welcome it. what it would do is make you play a little different, if your lazy and dont keep up you loose the Ultimate spell or attack or whatever or cant do the limit break because you dlvld. I mean once you get yo 50 there is no consequence for dieing except gear damage, idk about that even though we had it from day one, either way im fine with whatever I am just jonesen to play lol...

Because it's a mindset. Death Penalties are SUPPOSED to encourage better play. However, as you pointed out, it's not the penalty that's the problem, but the player.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

And then when it sticks, stay with that strategy and NEVER EVER leave it or bother trying anything new because you might DIE

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Because we all know how often people experimented in 1.0 once someone had a "Win strat" right?

People began to treat wasted time as a death penalty, and excluded people/jobs/ideas just the same. It became the norm to idle around instead of forming your own group to try something new because nobody was willing to spend time trying something new.

Death penalty never stopped people from being elitist jerks, nor did the lack of one.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Because it's a mindset. Death Penalties are SUPPOSED to encourage better play. However, as you pointed out, it's not the penalty that's the problem, but the player.

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precisely. a death penalty doesn't really encourage better play in practice, because the players it discourages are players that were already discouraged. playing better comes from wanting to be better, and/or the best. no penalty influences it whatsoever. you're either driven to play better and better or you're not.

and besides, the strongest motivator for better play is competition. but this game's community is horrified of that, so...

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Because we all know how often people experimented in 1.0 once someone had a "Win strat" right?

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you're only reinforcing their point. people using carbon copy strats to win rarely ever strayed from the formula because they just wanted easy wins. the people making the strats everyone else copied, though, experimented quite a lot to find faster and more efficient strategies. so...

Your on quite the mean streak today aren't you Fusional?

Anyways a proper death penalty doesn't need to be exp loss, but something enough to make people pause before the run headlong into a grove of Malboro just to see what is on the other side knowing that the only penalty is they might not actually make it there.

I remember when being able to avoid agro was a skill worth note, not pointless because you can just zombie walk anything that presents even the most mediocre challenge.

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Because we all know how often people experimented in 1.0 once someone had a "Win strat" right?

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Moogle Fight

BRD/ARC strat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkEm5wYvXTg
WHM strat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOkIwkkktTU
Of course there's the usual BLM strategy
But there was also a MNK strategy but I can't find a vid for it. ; ;

So... there.

:)

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Moogle Fight

BRD/ARC strat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkEm5wYvXTg
WHM strat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOkIwkkktTU
Of course there's the usual BLM strategy
But there was also a MNK strategy but I can't find a vid for it. ; ;

So... there.

:)

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How does this show me that people were as willing to experiment than in a game such as XI there were multiple strats to win many fights in that game as well...The only difference is the rapid pace of when/how these strategies emerge because with no fear of death you can go in with 6 miners for all the penalty that is imposed upon death. Hell a 15 minute lockout would even suffice for the instanced content enough time to let people have a breather and see what went wrong instead of just mashing the enter button again.

There are some real opinions on the issue it seems. I have felt that the idea of gear damage has favored the gil sellers to some degree. Yes it has given the crafters more to do and I enjoy that aspect. What about giving a choice of exp or gear damage?

The amount of exp earned today is ludicrous. It has precipitated its way to all new heights. I do not want to go back to FFXI as it is no longer the game that it was; although there seemed to be a rite of passage to make it out of the Dunes. This idea that you do not need to party until people blindly feel their way through a low level dungeon or wait for endgame to start to party is just a joke. Yes the old way was a grind to lvl. The grind gave birth to party unity and eventually into friendships. This is what I feel is lost today in the hyper instant gratification games have become. The daily shout for a party was a bit of suckyness and I would still take that over the running battles and mish mash party setups of today. The camp and pull was much better than the run run run.

Again there was bad in the old games. To say that they are better now I feel is short sited. There was some good and some I feel has been lost. Yes exp sucked some days and others it made you realize that you were just playing your character poorly.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

in a game such as XI there were multiple strats to win

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straight tank, kite, zerg. is that what you mean by multiple strats?

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Originally Posted by PimCarb

I have felt that the idea of gear damage has favored the gil sellers to some degree.

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something that costs money favors people who want to make money? i don't... understand

You can't enter with miners but DoH played an interesting role in the Ifrit battles, interrupting the Hellfire move for a while before it was patched.

YOU implied people didn't experiment but my post showing the opposite and now has you complaining "They found new strategies too fast!" Waaah!

Whatever dude. Like I said, you can always play XI if you want EXP loss penalties.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

YOU implied people didn't experiment

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No YOU Were the first to imply that with a penalty that people didn't experiment, just showing you it's the same regardless.

No YOU did! BOLD ITALICS UNDERLINE [FLAME]SOOURYUKEN[/FLAME]

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...-shoryu-ts.gif

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

stay with that strategy and NEVER EVER leave it or bother trying anything new because you might DIE

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Guess we forgot? Either way I'll just leave my point where it is and not bother you further.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Guess we forgot? Either way I'll just leave my point where it is and not bother you further.

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Hiir Noivl Wins!

Hey kids get along alright?


Hiir don't make me put you in time out. >:| :P

u.u... I'm always in trouble...

Honestly, a death penalty of a some minor magnitude would be exceptable for ARR BECAUSE it is NOT FFXI. XP loss from death in FFXI would destroy HOURS of work trying to get that xp (this includes travel time and getting a party together). Since ARR will not suffer from the same (hopefully) lengthy buildup just trying to get to the XP, a loss , while annoying, would not be nearly as devestating as it was in FFXI in the past. Personally, I think a death penatly of weakness that improves over time would be nice. I know that there is a few minutes of weakness now, but i think 5-10 mins of weakness is acceptable if the magnitude decreases over time. Say for the first 30 secs after you are raised you have a 50-75% decrease in attributes after that you gain back 10% every 30-60 secs until no longer weakened. I like this approach better than going from weakened to instantly perfect again.

I feel that exp loss and death sickness are two different issues to address. I just wanted to revisit the ideas of the past that impacted the overall game. I feel that the exp loss had positive effects on the overall game play in a positive manner. Yes when you were KO it sucked, look past the now into the overall effect. Just like the Dunes and parties earlier to exp. Yes at the time it sucked, down the road when you really needed to party it was not just throwing it against the wall to see what would stick.

Like I said give us a choice exp or gear damage.

GB2FFXI8910

Can you imagine this game like Demon/Dark Souls.. running around you die - all of your EXP for that level drops to the ground... lololol

Level 49 99% to 50... bai bai


But as others have pointed out you have to carefully balance death punishment as if you go too far one way you limit strategy and creativity and the other way you destroy consequence and also strategy (if its too easy winning by attrition will be the least strategic common choice).

Assuming that regrinding EXP and regrinding Gil are approximately equal (as far as time sinks go) and after browsing several threads about this dead topic, it sounds like the only real difference between EXP loss (with deleveling) and Gear Damage is that someone deleveling automatically ends the endgame activity (assuming you don't have replacements on hand!).