Thoughts on the Colosseum and PvP

I hope there is party PvP like this (without the commentators): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29vqd6qeNnw

Shouldn't worry too much about PvP been boring.. just like Yoshi-P mentioned on the last Live Letter...new hardcore PvP members joined the team and Yoshi-P is a hardcore PvPer himself so i believe they have the right ideas going on to make that event fun which is the ultimate goal.

That said i wanna see chicks in Sexy coliseum sets battling already ;)

I thing PVP is the hardest thing to make people (and hardcore PVPers) enjoy it. I don't really like PVP at all, but I always see unhappy people about it on every new MMOs. Even between PVP players they really don'T have the same expectations.

I know they passed a long time on it so I hope it'll be fun ! And maybe the ones like me who don't like PvP could enjoy it ! :o

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Originally Posted by Pleymo

I thing PVP is the hardest thing to make people (and hardcore PVPers) enjoy it. I don't really like PVP at all, but I always see unhappy people about it on every new MMOs. Even between PVP players they really don'T have the same expectations.

I know they passed a long time on it so I hope it'll be fun ! And maybe the ones like me who don't like PvP could enjoy it ! :o

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The only reason people don't like PvP is the fear of them becoming the favorite punching bag which gets annoying fast..it did for me in FFXI as BLM ..but then i tried it out as RDM/BLU and i had a lot of fun...i hope FFXIV balances it so everyone has a fair chance at murdering you XD

Nah Black Mage wasn't punching bags, it was Summoner. Who ever brought their toon as a Summoner was asking for it.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Nah Black Mage wasn't punching bags, it was Summoner. Who ever brought their toon as a Summoner was asking for it.

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I hate you all... Q________Q I only pvped with Summoner sick mob on someone then go hide x___x I did die way to many times though x,x

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiKayla

I hate you all... Q________Q I only pvped with Summoner sick mob on someone then go hide x___x I did die way to many times though x,x

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On Paladin, most of the time people would just ignore you. I pray they balance everything well for all jobs/class to make it fun.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I pray they balance everything well for all jobs/class to make it fun.

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I can't wait to see how badly will PvP adjustments and balancing mess up the rest of the battle content in the game.

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Originally Posted by Klefth

I can't wait to see how badly will PvP adjustments and balancing mess up the rest of the battle content in the game.

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why are you here? Your post provides nothing constructive or useful. Go away, shoo.

I've pretty much never cared about PvP in MMOs.

As long as they don't change the mechanics and gear to focus on that instead of PvE, I'm fine with the addition.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I've pretty much never cared about PvP in MMOs.

As long as they don't change the mechanics and gear to focus on that instead of PvE, I'm fine with the addition.

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I'm certain the battle mechanics for pvp and anything related to pvp will not effect pve. I'm not certain how frontlines will effect the community though. This part is most interesting to me.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I'm certain the battle mechanics for pvp and anything related to pvp will not effect pve. I'm not certain how frontlines will effect the community though. This part is most interesting to me.

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You're foolish if you don't think PvP will affect PvE in any way. Balancing cooldown timers or effective ranges for skills would have to be considered for both PvP and PvE. However, how much damage/effect a skill or spell has on a player compared to a mob can be seperated so your 2k damage Doom Spikes on Ifrit could at best do 500 on a player.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

You're foolish if you don't think PvP will affect PvE in any way. Balancing cooldown timers or effective ranges for skills would have to be considered for both PvP and PvE. However, how much damage/effect a skill or spell has on a player compared to a mob can be seperated so your 2k damage Doom Spikes on Ifrit could at best do 500 on a player.

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I don't think its wise to call anyone foolish. What we know already is that there is instant cast spells, and spells with no cool downs, and they proved to be very helpful in pve. If you don't agree I'd say you're lying. Yoshi-P said it was for PvP purposes as well.

The bold which I agree with because it is essentially what I'm talking about in the post before. The fact that PvP is available to only two content in the game, battle mechanics and damage modifiers is most likely separated.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I don't think its wise to call anyone foolish. What we know already is that there is instant cast spells, and spells with no cool downs, and they proved to be very helpful in pve. If you don't agree I'd say you're lying. Yoshi-P said it was for PvP purposes as well.

The bold which I agree with because it is essentially what I'm talking about in the post before. The fact that PvP is available to only two content in the game, battle mechanics and damage modifiers is most likely separated.

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I know there are going to be instant cast spells and the like. Yoshi-P did say that it was for PvP purposes but any skill's implementation from now on has to be looked at for PvE and PvP purposes. Some abilities may end up being useless for PvE or vice versa and of course, some abilities may have an unintended uses for PvE and vice versa that SE will need to adjust once it becomes abused. Damage and effects aren't going to be the only things that matter.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

I know there are going to be instant cast spells and the like. Yoshi-P did say that it was for PvP purposes but any skill's implementation from now on has to be looked at for PvE and PvP purposes. Some abilities may end up being useless for PvE or vice versa and of course, some abilities may have an unintended uses for PvE and vice versa that SE will need to adjust once it becomes abused. Damage and effects aren't going to be the only things that matter.

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Those abilities that may end up being useless for PvE can be you know, exclusive to PvP only. Some skills may only have adjustments that effects PvP only, thus not effecting PvE. For example like how Provoke worked in FFXI in PvP.

I think they should make PvP turn based classic FF style, that way we get a system that does not interfere with the PvE side of things but we also get the best of both worlds with a game where we can experience the classic FF combat of old with the faster paced action battle systems of new, it will never happen though and probably most people are against this >.<.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Those abilities that may end up being useless for PvE can be you know, exclusive to PvP only. Some skills may only have adjustments that effects PvP only, thus not effecting PvE. For example like how Provoke worked in FFXI in PvP.

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We aren't really arguing over the same thing I think. I specifically stated that skills might function differently when performed against a player instead of a monster. The skill's implementation however, will be affected by PvP and PvE. For example, let's take the Thundara spell. Let's say it stuns when casted on a monster, but it only interrupts a player. That would be a difference for PvP and PvE. However, the cooldown and range of the spell would have to be the same for both contents so in that sense, PvP would affect PvE and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

We aren't really arguing over the same thing I think. I specifically stated that skills might function differently when performed against a player instead of a monster. The skill's implementation however, will be affected by PvP and PvE. For example, let's take the Thundara spell. Let's say it stuns when casted on a monster, but it only interrupts a player. That would be a difference for PvP and PvE. However, the cooldown and range of the spell would have to be the same for both contents so in that sense, PvP would affect PvE and vice versa.

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While that statement is true-ish the direct effect most likely will take place outside of the specific move, attack, spell. Not because I know any information you don't but its just easier if they change the calculations we don't see constantly unlike range, effectiveness, and utility. Using your example for instance Thundara stun will work mechanically the same where it will hit as long as the cast isn't interrupted and the target is still in range. But the calculation for stun resist, damage done, spell resist, and point of restriction (geographical positioning when removing them from movement animations) would be tweaked when in pvp alot easier with less kick back when jumping for any player. But to simplify what I mean is just stat changes in pvp areas. So your gear will be different if your min-maxing and depending on how detailed they want to get you might get vastly different results. For instance parry builds for war as opposed to hp, or bind builds for blm instead of stun. While this may seem like a given, the reason it should be pointed out is because they can separate the category without adding specific pvp stats so one won't effect the other. Regrettably though most pvp possible games could have done it the same but they tend to do a full change across the board instead of a specific adjustment (SWTOR, DCUO, etc.) .

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Originally Posted by Enma

Why so many people are asking for a "Spectator Mode"?! Would you really "play" a game to watch others playing?! Quite boring...

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Dont't think of it as entertainment, think of it as watching others fight so you can improve on your strategy the next time you fight, I did this via Youtube quite often pvping in other MMOs, you can learn what other classes most common strat is so you can adjust your strat to counter theres.

Think of athletes watching film to learn there opponents strats and play style better, or watching there own film to learn from there mistakes(or of another in the same position to get ideas of how to improve.)

Would love to be a spectator...since PvP isn't my cup of tea.

Kind of off topic as what I'm going to talk about is actually PvE but could still tie into the coliseum.

Forgive me for referencing FFXI, but the Treasures of Aht Urgan expansion featured 5 NPC's knows as the Serpent Generals. There was a series of side quests you could undertake each one asking you to undertake a certain task during which you learnt more about the back story of a general and how they came to their position. After you had completed these quests, another was unlocked with the reward being an entry item for a one of fight against the serpent generals (There was no reward for this fight).

I see the 3 Grand Company leaders as the FFXIV equivalent of the generals and I know they have a massive fan following. I wondered if anyone else would like a chance to be able to unlock a fight in the coliseum against your own GC leader or all 3 either solo or as a group. At the same time it would give the devs a way to give us more back story on them.

Again I don't think this should be a fight for a reward more the chance to fight these epic NPC's for the thrill of it. If people want a reward maybe a trophy incorperating the weapons of the generals for a house may be appropriate.

I could be wrong but I swear I can remember some dev post regarding PvP and spectating.. I think it was in that "spectator mode for dungeons" thread weeks ago.. Once again I could have dreamt it or something.

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Originally Posted by Klefth

PvP can stay out of this game for all I care. It's already served to dumb down the combat system and the game isn't even out. Just wait for all that "balancing" goodness in the future! :D

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Very true, it doesn't belong here.

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Originally Posted by Altena

I could be wrong but I swear I can remember some dev post regarding PvP and spectating.. I think it was in that "spectator mode for dungeons" thread weeks ago.. Once again I could have dreamt it or something.

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You do remember correctly, On page three i shared that comment:

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Quote Originally Posted by Rukkirii View Post
I see you guys want to be able to spectate events such as raids! While we are currently looking into making this possible for coliseum events, so those that are not brawling can watch on and cheer, we do not have any plans to introduce this for battle content such as raids. The main reason is that we believe some players do not want to be watched by others as they play, and also there is possibility that unwanted videos or screenshots crop up.

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@ 3Jane:
Random PvP anywhere in a zone does not belong in FFXIV, but that is not what we are talking about. I like the idea they are having PvP as a competition thing rather than a PK thing Thus my attempt to think of ways to make that kind of combat interesting. The nice thing about this is it shouldnt require balancing like PvP in WoW or guildwars would as they had a larger focus on it and it had a different dynamic in their worlds. But at this point i am merely speculating since we have not heard much by way of official information.

From the horses mouth:

In this ChinaJoy2012 interview, Yoshi P confirms:

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Q: What about PvP?
A: There will not be open PvP/ PK, and both players must mutually agree to a PvP match. Final Fantasy XIV will be the first game in the franchise to have a “meaningful” PvP system, hence I urge players to try it out.The word "meaningful" is left open to interpretation...

Q: Is it fair to say the PvP in Final Fantasy XIV is somewhat similar to World of Warcraft’s?
A: We will have a PvP arena, which is similar to the one found in World of Warcraft. Our PvP team members played many matches in World of Warcraft. Personally, I am a player of Dark Age of Camelot, a PvP-centric MMO

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*text in red is my commentary

From the original pdf under the category Battle Systems:

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Two PvP venues, Coliseum and Frontlines, to be released after version 2.0. Unique zones to be created so as not to affect non-participating players. Release of PvP-specific abilities, gear, and ranking.

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Thank you! i knew there was little tidbits of info i had picked up somewhere. Thanks a bunch for the links!

Would like pvp in the colosseum to have 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 matches. Would also like it have some kind of a roster, kind of like how you could see the top 20 people who donated in hamlet in 1.0. The roster would be based on wins, also each win would gain you some pvp points which could be used to purchase new armors, weapons, and materia.

Having spectators would be nice, but if there is only 1 battle arena in the colosseum it would make long wait times for people to participate in battle, so instead I would rather have the arena instanced, so if you Q in to participate in a fight the server would match you up against an opponent fairly quick, hopefully within 1-3min. Perhaps spectators could choose from a list of instances that are hosting a battle they wish to join and watch could work as well.

PVE in the colosseum would be cool as well, fighting a huge behemoth in the colosseum would be super fun, maybe add different difficulties to the beasts as well, normal, hard, and heroic and each difficulty would yield different rewards off course.

Thanks! Edited OP to reflect the new suggestions.

Although he has said there will be no open world PvP it would be nice to see in the future maybe an 'alternate reality' or something (like XI's WoTG Shadowrealm) where all 3 nations are at war with each other and you have to fight for areas/carry out infiltrations etc.

Obviously it won't be for everyone and should have little to no bearing on the PvE game but it might be fun and rewarding if done right.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Although he has said there will be no open world PvP it would be nice to see in the future maybe an 'alternate reality' or something (like XI's WoTG Shadowrealm) where all 3 nations are at war with each other and you have to fight for areas/carry out infiltrations etc.

Obviously it won't be for everyone and should have little to no bearing on the PvE game but it might be fun and rewarding if done right.

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Isn't this how DAoC pvp worked? Weren' there three factions that were mutually at war with another not unlike WoW's Horde vs Alliance with borderlands that acted as semi open world pvp zones? I never played DAoC personally but I think it functioned something along those lines on the normal servers. Correct me if i'm wrong! Just bringing it up since Yoshida personally says he is a fan of DAoC pvp. So it might not be too far a stretch and if enough players like the idea maybe it can happen!

However the three nations warring against each other would be counter productive in so far as having formed an alliance to combat the empire. I'm guessing the lore behind the pvp colliseum/frontlines will be along the lines of a cooperative competative spirit amongst factions so as to prove who is the strongest while at the same time supporting each other in training to combat the empire together. I doubt we will ever see ourselves slaying each other on the battlefield and looting other players corpses however fun it might be.

Even the earlier MMOs like Anarchy Online had areas designed as a deathmatch pvp subzone where anyone who enters is targetable for combat. There were even seats for spectators to watch, though many resorted to a better view, sitting on house rooftops or walls surrounding the area.