Prog skipping/lying is going wild this tier.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I think one wild thing is that people are advertising that they're checking _some_ website to see where you are in the fight, in party finder. People really like living on the edge of the law.

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SE has made it abundantly clear that they won't enforce their own rules, so people have stopped caring.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

SE has made it abundantly clear that they won't enforce their own rules, so people have stopped caring.

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Sure, but ousting people from parties and playing the instances by checking a third party program and website? That's playing with fire.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Sure, but ousting people from parties and playing the instances by checking a third party program and website? That's playing with fire.

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SE generally needs evidence aquired in-game (chat logs typically) to pursue a ban. Not only that, but typically they don't act if there is any ambiguity whatsoever in a report - because they likely fear the fallout of an erroneous ban. (And, frankly, that's justified. Gaming companies that have subscription play have lost lawsuits against players when they failed to uphold thwir ToS in the past. Worse, Japan had a very big culture around not losing face, and the lost of trust from multiple lost characters or mistaken ban would be amplified tremendously.)

So right now we're in the situation we are now: SE only acts on the most brazen violations, sweeps the rest under the rug, and keeps collecting money.

Personally, I'm just going to eat some low-fat popcorn and giggle at people being foolish and reaping what they sowed.

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Originally Posted by Jamini

SE generally needs evidence aquired in-game (chat logs typically) to pursue a ban. Not only that, but typically they don't act if there is any ambiguity whatsoever in a report - because they likely fear the fallout of an erroneous ban. (And, frankly, that's justified. Gaming companies that have subscription play have lost lawsuits against players when they failed to uphold thwir ToS in the past. Worse, Japan had a very big culture around not losing face, and the lost of trust from multiple lost characters or mistaken ban would be amplified tremendously.)

So right now we're in the situation we are now: SE only acts on the most brazen violations, sweeps the rest under the rug, and keeps collecting money.

Personally, I'm just going to eat some low-fat popcorn and giggle at people being foolish and reaping what they sowed.

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You think they will be disciplined or banned? That's kind of funny. I mean I always thought the use of 3rd party programs was like an open secret, so if they weren't blatant about them nothing would be enforced. But like to openly be hostile to other players by using a third party program and ousting them from parties borders on brazen. Like it's already shady when someone is like "Bring allagan melons", but this...

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Sure, but ousting people from parties and playing the instances by checking a third party program and website? That's playing with fire.

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Lmao what's SE gonna do about someone "checking passports" in a PF? They won't even go after people with <<Mare Lamentorum>> in their search info despite us all knowing what that means. If they don't care about a giant glowing "HEY I'M MODDING MY GAME LOOK AT ME" sign in your bio they certainly don't care about this. It's all about plausible deniability.

I'm not really a fan of it, I don't check them myself because it's unreliable and screws over console players, but there's no solution unless SE just sends the passport website a C&D or something.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Sure, but ousting people from parties and playing the instances by checking a third party program and website? That's playing with fire.

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Third party website =/= using a third party program. So you can't use that for evidence regardless.

Honestly, that website was going to be made sooner than later. At least we don't have a public blacklist like JP. Frankly, I'm surprised we don't have one considering how NA loves drama, so that seems perfect.

People are complaining about prog lying individuals when this is a game design problem. To be frank I actually get tired of how lopsided fights end up being in FFXIV because of simply not knowing some mechanic or having learned a different strategy from the group. Outside of a sliver of the population everyone doing these fights are using assistive technology to even accomplish completing them AND it is like doing cram lessons every night due to all the crap someone has to remember.

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Its unhinged to hop from PF to PF far above the progpoint to single handedly ruin the party within 2 pulls after already waiting for a while to fill.
All this wouldnt be a problem if SE stops actively protecting those players.
Players that are not bad at the game want to be able to point out if someone is holding the group back but we cant because everything you say in partychat nowadays can get you into the GM-Jail. We want to be able to look up playerstats on certain websites before we decide to keep that person in the party but even that is... against the guidelines. The only way to escape from players like this is to just disband the party and open a new one where the circle begins again.

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Like that has stopped world of warcraft from becoming pug hell .these tools that you talk about do nothing but promote elite toxicity and more wait time .

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Originally Posted by Miohazuki

Like that has stopped world of warcraft from becoming pug hell .these tools that you talk about do nothing but promote elite toxicity and more wait time .

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Ngl... I rather raid with WoW's toxic pug's than what we have in 14 rn.
Back in Dragonflight when I picked up the game with the release of the first Raid Vault of the Incarnates I did prepare myself for the nHC-Mode, watched guides and pov's. I did clear it. Was i good enough for it and did I pull my weight? Idk. I thought I could do the same for the HC-Mode but without preparing myself with guides ect. I thought it doesnt matter anyway because I'm only DPS and I had 0 responsibility on the nHC mode. I ended up eating shit, being one of the sole reasons why the group wasnt able to clear with me in the party. People pointed out that I'm the issue, that I'm clueless and that I'm not prepared in a rather toxic way. I got kicked and I wasnt even mad about it. I knew that I messed up, that I wasted the other players time and knew that I have to prepare myself for the next attempt.
Now imagine they would have acted like the FF raiding community and just disbanded the entire Raid. I wouldnt have learned from it and would have done it probably again. Thats the issue 14 has. Prog liars are not getting punished for their actions and will not stop doing it. I want to get shit done in a reasonable time and not waste over a week on something that could have been done in 1-2 Days because of selfish thinking prog skippers.

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Ngl... I rather raid with WoW's toxic pug's than what we have in 14 rn.
Back in Dragonflight when I picked up the game with the release of the first Raid Vault of the Incarnates I did prepare myself for the nHC-Mode, watched guides and pov's. I did clear it. Was i good enough for it and did I pull my weight? Idk. I thought I could do the same for the HC-Mode but without preparing myself with guides ect. I thought it doesnt matter anyway because I'm only DPS and I had 0 responsibility on the nHC mode. I ended up eating shit, being one of the sole reasons why the group wasnt able to clear with me in the party. People pointed out that I'm the issue, that I'm clueless and that I'm not prepared in a rather toxic way. I got kicked and I wasnt even mad about it. I knew that I messed up, that I wasted the other players time and knew that I have to prepare myself for the next attempt.
Now imagine they would have acted like the FF raiding community and just disbanded the entire Raid. I wouldnt have learned from it and would have done it probably again. Thats the issue 14 has. Prog liars are not getting punished for their actions and will not stop doing it. I want to get shit done in a reasonable time and not waste over a week on something that could have been done in 1-2 Days because of selfish thinking prog skippers.

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While toxic positivity is very present in PF and kind of in the FF14 community overall, I don't think flaming/being toxic to prog liars will achieve much anyway. They can just mute you/ not read the chat, and carry on with the prog lying. The only viable solution is for people to actively use the block/blacklist function a lot more. Only by denying entrance, they will perhaps understand that their behavior is bad.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

SE has made it abundantly clear that they won't enforce their own rules, so people have stopped caring.

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It really isnt, i stated more then once that the dmg from someone is not good at all and he isnt carrying his own weight etc etc etc never happen anything, square doesnt really care about it after all its less money for them if they ban someone

A blacklist is a blacklist. You can call it whatever kind of list you want, but here's how a "community" blacklist would work:

1. Someone would be in charge of it.
2. That person would form their own clique at the top to manage it
3. One of them will do something inappropriate with a minor
4. Anyone who speaks out about it will end up on the blacklist.

Or some similar drama. The end result being the blacklist just results in a powerful clique that tries to give themselves the authority to pick and choose who gets to play the game based on increasingly petty until the toxicity reaches its peak and the entire thing implodes. This community has a hard time keeping a hunt linkshell open for more than 2 weeks without blowing up, you really want to trust anyone else to tell you who's toxic and who's not?

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

Third party website =/= using a third party program. So you can't use that for evidence regardless.

Honestly, that website was going to be made sooner than later. At least we don't have a public blacklist like JP. Frankly, I'm surprised we don't have one considering how NA loves drama, so that seems perfect.

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I don't mind the passport system but I'm surprised no one made a sting about it!

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Its unhinged to hop from PF to PF far above the progpoint to single handedly ruin the party within 2 pulls after already waiting for a while to fill.
All this wouldnt be a problem if SE stops actively protecting those players.
Players that are not bad at the game want to be able to point out if someone is holding the group back but we cant because everything you say in partychat nowadays can get you into the GM-Jail. We want to be able to look up playerstats on certain websites before we decide to keep that person in the party but even that is... against the guidelines. The only way to escape from players like this is to just disband the party and open a new one where the circle begins again.

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I don't think chat should be moderated unless it's Sexual in nature, Game is rated T for Teen. Average Teenager in the modern era has access to way worse stuff than we did in the PS2 Era. If you can't handle being called out you shouldn't play the hardest content in an MMORPG. At the same time, SE shouldn't lock cool looking stuff behind raids. Make the cosmetic craftable for an insane cost like 99 Darksteel HQ Nuggets + 50 Current expansion HQ Leather + 50 Current Expansion Desynthesis only juice + 60 Demimateria 3 & some high tier materia from current expansion for good measure.

Give raiders engraved gear (The weapon has raid name somewhere on it) and give everyone else the standard version, This satisifes both parties and keeps the average user out of raids. I want to raid but do not have a static, And know i won't be quiet in chat cause i'm from the OG CoD era so i'd be getting banned by playing with publics & I don't trust the average FC in this game after all the nonsense drama i've gotten pulled into over the years. If you aren't 24/7 happy go lucky you get tunnel visioned for stupidity.

I wouldn't want to attempt that level of difficulty with the average user who still after all this time can't figure out Aurum Vale mechanics, Or wipe repeatedly to the Ascian Prime fight despite braindead easy "Get far away from partner to break chain" mechanic.

SE Actively makes toxicity by forcing you to do High End for the coolest stuff in-game, Give people the cosmetic. If you want the cool glowing raid name on it? Then it's time to GIT GUD, But otherwise the cosmetic alone would satisfy most people.

That or start making normal weapons look cool instead of A.I Recolors, Almost everything in Dawntrail looks like hot garbage weapon wise, Was the same for Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Immut

A blacklist is a blacklist. You can call it whatever kind of list you want, but here's how a "community" blacklist would work:

1. Someone would be in charge of it.
2. That person would form their own clique at the top to manage it
3. One of them will do something inappropriate with a minor
4. Anyone who speaks out about it will end up on the blacklist.

Or some similar drama. The end result being the blacklist just results in a powerful clique that tries to give themselves the authority to pick and choose who gets to play the game based on increasingly petty until the toxicity reaches its peak and the entire thing implodes. This community has a hard time keeping a hunt linkshell open for more than 2 weeks without blowing up, you really want to trust anyone else to tell you who's toxic and who's not?

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Exactly this. Public blacklists aren't actually anything new and they always just devolve into a tool to bully people.

There's also a 0% chance SE wouldn't start throwing down very harsh bans within 24 hours if people start sharing a public name-and-shame list in PF. Bullying other players is like... literally the only thing FFXIV moderation cares about. It's THE cardinal sin here. I promise you they don't care if you tell them "b-but we have 4 witnesses saying they griefed!", it's completely out of touch to suggest that somehow makes it ToS compliant.

What SE could do is making it possible in PF to set a health/progress treshold that must have been reached before. While not failproof, it does at least prevent fresh players from joining an enrage party:
To make them consistent, we both use the same scaling 0% is fresh, 100% is clear/enrage:
- The health is marked using: Min boss damage dealt. Going from 100 to 0. Note that 100 does include 99.5%. Multistage fights include the stage here. (for example for ex3 you could do 0% phase 2, while the chaotic only uses health)
- For progress its simply the time passed compared tot the enrage timer, having each stage maximized in time (So if you get the transition in ex3 directly after ice, it can jump 10% instantly, which means there is always only a stage 1 percentage available if you never reached stage 2, even if effectively you survived longer)

And yes, the idea is you can mix these! (100% enrage, 80% damage means 20% enrage hp remaining)

It sadly is not going to prevent cases in which you for example set it to 10%, and someone that was hard carried to that joins in. But it does filter out quite a bit. And even here a few things can be done to assist:

- As party leader, your 10th best result is considered instead of just your best, for enabling you to set this as requirement. Or some other metric is used to exclude outliers and force leaders to set it more realistic to what they reliably should be able to reach. For joiners this check is ignored. And once cleared (even if once) these restrictions also drop.
- Time is included as a factor. Reaching 50% 4 weeks ago has less meaning, so it does consider lower. I would say it just drops the percentage value that is accepted by 10% for every week beyond the first. Yes, holidays of 2 weeks can mean you will have to reprog from 80% even if you saw enrage.

But yeah, i can imagine this being too much work and exclude people too often... but tbh, those people should in those cases make a pf themselve. And if they dont or refuse, thats their problem. If you are not even willing to take this effort, you are also not willing enough to clear it. (that you dont need it most of the time is something else. and if you dont know how it works, thats a learning moment)

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

What SE could do is making it possible in PF to set a health/progress treshold that must have been reached before. While not failproof, it does at least prevent fresh players from joining an enrage party:
To make them consistent, we both use the same scaling 0% is fresh, 100% is clear/enrage:
- The health is marked using: Min boss damage dealt. Going from 100 to 0. Note that 100 does include 99.5%. Multistage fights include the stage here. (for example for ex3 you could do 0% phase 2, while the chaotic only uses health)
- For progress its simply the time passed compared tot the enrage timer, having each stage maximized in time (So if you get the transition in ex3 directly after ice, it can jump 10% instantly, which means there is always only a stage 1 percentage available if you never reached stage 2, even if effectively you survived longer) ... )

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This would be 100% a step in the right direction.
SE likes to implemented things that are otherwise only available via thrid party- programs or websites. (Auto-Waymarker, Raidplaner ect.)
Giving us a ToS conform "passport website" feature In-Game would only hurt prog skippers and doesnt affect honest players. At least not negatively.

This problem is inherent to a game like this. The moment that they added "Duty Complete" flags to PF, it was only natural for people to start lying. I'm not saying it is right. The way I see it, they give players tools to easily make parties. They make it so the only thing you risk when you run something with possible "prog liars" is time. You risk minimal amounts of gil (food, pots, repairs). You risk no experience. You don't risk having to fight other enemies to get a token to "spawn" your target. It isn't like if you wipe, you lost a day or week of progress and need to farm pop items and experience again.

In other words, the risk is minimal. I think you just got to take the good with the bad.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

The moment that they added "Duty Complete" flags to PF, it was only natural for people to start lying.

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No, they did it before that flag existed. I know because I made parties back then for Alexander in Heavensward. Once I was consistent at it, I made A10S post-Steamroller parties and none of the people joining were beyond that prog wall.

It was also back then even that I regularly observed parties getting to a mechanic in a messy way and then saying they were "up" to it and modifying their PF, which they still do to this day. There is just a fundamental misunderstanding of what being "up" to a mechanic means. There are many players that actually think seeing a mechanic with lots of deaths and damage downs and a healer LB3 means they are "up" to the mechanic.

Back then, instead of [Duty Complete], we put "2 chests, no bonus" to scare away people that didn't have it on farm and this was actually fine in my experience. Usually, these parties went smooth as they do now. I never even had to consider kicking anyone in reclears. But that terminology looks very toxic, so [Duty Complete] was a way to make PF look more inviting to a new player.

kind of an odd place to put this question but like... what tag do you use for like almost got it area of prog?

Because I know it's not duty complete.

But I figured duty completion be like the - I've seen most the fight just need to clean it up and kill it level.

Because practice doesn't seem to be the right tag.

(I never had to make my own groups before)

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Originally Posted by Nadda

kind of an odd place to put this question but like... what tag do you use for like almost got it area of prog?

Because I know it's not duty complete.

But I figured duty completion be like the - I've seen most the fight just need to clean it up and kill it level.

Because practice doesn't seem to be the right tag.

(I never had to make my own groups before)

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You usually make a clear party, but instead of asking only for people that got to the enrage you make it so people between that mechanic and enrage can join. For example, on m6s you could make a bridge to enrage party

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Originally Posted by Nadda

kind of an odd place to put this question but like... what tag do you use for like almost got it area of prog?

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[Duty Complete] = for people who already beat it (the implication is you should be consistent at it, otherwise should join [Duty Completion] or [Practice] instead)

[Duty Completion] = seen all the mechs, consistent enough at them, ready to clear in a few pulls (rarely, a few players put this when it's fresh prog because they are wildly overconfident, probably new to high-end duties)

[Practice] phase # = join only if you're consistent up to that mech (but obviously many aren't consistent or party leaders themselves aren't)

[Practice] fresh prog = can be totally new to the fight

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

[Duty Complete] = for people who already beat it (the implication is you should be consistent at it, otherwise should join [Duty Completion] or [Practice] instead)

[Duty Completion] = seen all the mechs, consistent enough at them, ready to clear in a few pulls (rarely, a few players put this when it's fresh prog because they are wildly overconfident, probably new to high-end duties)

[Practice] phase # = join only if you're consistent up to that mech (but obviously many aren't consistent or party leaders themselves aren't)

[Practice] fresh prog = can be totally new to the fight

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Thanks guys because I didn't know - my whole time doing high end content I've always been following others.

I am most likely wildly over confident but I did run a [Duty Completion] one a few nights ago we did like four pulls and disbanded and one guy was like "Didn't clear"

And I was like - I'm not a prog liar ,I have seen all the mechs.

Thanks though I'll be more mindful of the future and maybe just stick to [practice] tabs

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

[Duty Complete] = for people who already beat it (the implication is you should be consistent at it, otherwise should join [Duty Completion] or [Practice] instead)

[Duty Completion] = seen all the mechs, consistent enough at them, ready to clear in a few pulls (rarely, a few players put this when it's fresh prog because they are wildly overconfident, probably new to high-end duties)

[Practice] phase # = join only if you're consistent up to that mech (but obviously many aren't consistent or party leaders themselves aren't)

[Practice] fresh prog = can be totally new to the fight

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If the duty is set to duty complete, you are unable to join unless you have cleared the fight. Everything else is different levels of practice.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

While toxic positivity is very present in PF and kind of in the FF14 community overall, I don't think flaming/being toxic to prog liars will achieve much anyway. They can just mute you/ not read the chat, and carry on with the prog lying.

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1. We need to also better separate optimistic boldness from "toxic positivity." See also below.
2. Yep. Not reading chat is pretty common in general, and it's also most likely going to be the case for the typical player (that's actually trying to clear the duty). Meanwhile, being toxic to the small segment that's actually there to grief is likely to give them exactly what they want. Flaming is a lose/lose.

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The only viable solution is for people to actively use the block/blacklist function a lot more. Only by denying entrance, they will perhaps understand that their behavior is bad.

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3. This easily creates an also-toxic culture of fear, however, especially when you consider the side effects of being blacklisted. Somebody doesn't "get it" soon enough regarding raid culture (more likely in XIV, since in WoW or Lost Ark they'll understand all too well from being declined from group after group without even getting a chance to see if they perform well enough or not)? Next thing welp they have trouble falling back on even hunts or FATE/map groups or exploratories or even hanging out in Limsa because of having been BL'd due to gameplay issues in EX/Savage. They'd literally have to buy the game again to get out of this (and I'm not even sure if it would have to be a separate Square Enix Account, as I'm not sure if BL follows this or merely an individual subscription account).

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Originally Posted by Immut

Or some similar drama. The end result being the blacklist just results in a powerful clique that tries to give themselves the authority to pick and choose who gets to play the game based on increasingly petty until the toxicity reaches its peak and the entire thing implodes.

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4. It gets WORSE, really, because the role of Discord in all this almost permanently entrenches the power of the largest moderator cliques. Which means, it gets toxic and it doesn't implode, instead you mostly get people that accept empire or they evermore grumpily roll the dice on PF or quit the content altogether.

You need a big public Discord to make a difference (even big friendly guilds with endgame headcount in the hundreds usually need outside recruitment in order to successfully form a raid group, small as they seem to be). On top of the community management requirements this entails, or should entail, you have the Discord Trust and Safety team constantly breathing down your neck with automated enforcement measures that, based on numerous anecdata, are absurdly easy for just a single troll to bring down the whole house through if there is even a few minutes gap in moderator coverage. (This whole house can include the accounts of every member, too. Imagine trying to play without Discord, given that most active non-mainstream social platforms these days are, well, the kind that someone as stoic as Thancred would probably struggle to tolerate, much less be comfortable in)

The result is that most players (it mainly takes pure luck to avoid this) find themselves with a choice of rolling the dice on PF, or accepting the terms set by incumbent large Discord community moderators. Some are decent people, some are not, and unfortunately, the ones that are not probably understand all of the foregoing perfectly well enough to know they don't need to be, they essentially have a cornered market ...

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Originally Posted by Luca_

I promise you they don't care if you tell them "b-but we have 4 witnesses saying they griefed!", it's completely out of touch to suggest that somehow makes it ToS compliant.

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5. Given the difficulties most games that accept such "but we have witnesses!" quantity based reporting have with abuse (right up to and including "stalking/grooming victim gets ignored because it's just one report, while someone that competed legit on the markets with an RMT cartel that ought not to be even getting to play in the first place gets banned by coordinated mass report" levels of absurdity) this is likely considered an intentional lesser-evil choice.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

This problem is inherent to a game like this. The moment that they added "Duty Complete" flags to PF, it was only natural for people to start lying.

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6. Yep. Duty Complete adds its own level of toxic and unhealthy, useful as it might be.

Start PF progging? Well you better death march that stuff because if you take a break and the others clear in the meanwhile, you can forget about continuing with them because they'll put up the Duty Complete wall so you're forced to put up "fresh prog" once more to actually get fills and your entire efforts have gone to waste, the way FFXIV mechanics work these days (in WoW this is more tolerable for various reasons).

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

There is just a fundamental misunderstanding of what being "up" to a mechanic means. There are many players that actually think seeing a mechanic with lots of deaths and damage downs and a healer LB3 means they are "up" to the mechanic.

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7. I expect this is a fault of the FFXIV design and the way in which rez works, but there is no simple way around it (individual permadeath was tried up through Sephirot Ex and it doesn't really work in any useful way with a group of 8).

In most MMOs, when you die, unless you are a critical role worthy of using the extremely limited battle rez, that's it, you're hors de combat and either the group clears without your further input (in which case you clearly understand you got carried) or it does not (and then you clearly know where you stopped).

In XIV it gets muddied by raises, damage downs, healer LB3s - and even moreso by the fact that these (well, not damage downs, lol) are common and expected recovery methods in normal modes (some of which would in fact be fully as hard as EX/Savage if rez was limited similarly - just see WoW difficulty tuning for an easy example as the mechanics in WoW normal or even Heroic raids are often no more complex than a normal trial or alliance raid, but there you don't get to easily recover from KO the way you do here).

Unless you take those recovery methods off your bar during serious content (and there are Ultimates where the healer LB3 is required, so even that's a muddy spot) and the community just agrees to full wipe every time there's a player death in EX/Savage, this is always going to be at least something of an issue.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

If the duty is set to duty complete, you are unable to join unless you have cleared the fight. Everything else is different levels of practice.

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I'm not sure what your point is, but mine was that even if you have cleared and can join a [Duty Complete] party, you shouldn't necessarily, unless you are consistent enough that they won't get upset with you.

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This easily creates an also-toxic culture of fear, however, especially when you consider the side effects of being blacklisted. Somebody doesn't "get it" soon enough regarding raid culture (more likely in XIV, since in WoW or Lost Ark they'll understand all too well from being declined from group after group without even getting a chance to see if they perform well enough or not)? Next thing welp they have trouble falling back on even hunts or FATE/map groups or exploratories or even hanging out in Limsa because of having been BL'd due to gameplay issues in EX/Savage. They'd literally have to buy the game again to get out of this (and I'm not even sure if it would have to be a separate Square Enix Account, as I'm not sure if BL follows this or merely an individual subscription account).

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This is easily avoided if you don't waste 7 other people's time. If you have a bad day or you cannot be consistent, remove yourself. Don't drag everyone down with you into an endless misery. Being kind to 1 person like this is being unkind to everyone else.

As for Limsa. I don't give a flying fuck about it as I don't hang around there anyway and I wouldn't want to be friends or interact with somebody that doesn't have the decency to show basic courtesy and respect anyway.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

[Duty Complete] = for people who already beat it (the implication is you should be consistent at it, otherwise should join [Duty Completion] or [Practice] instead)

[Duty Completion] = seen all the mechs, consistent enough at them, ready to clear in a few pulls (rarely, a few players put this when it's fresh prog because they are wildly overconfident, probably new to high-end duties)

[Practice] phase # = join only if you're consistent up to that mech (but obviously many aren't consistent or party leaders themselves aren't)

[Practice] fresh prog = can be totally new to the fight

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Use [Duty Completion] or [Practice] and have "Cleanup to Enrage" i the description. Putting your enrage % also is helpful. (31% enrage, 10% enrage, and 1% enrage are different beats )

It's also acceptable to send a tell to a reclear party leader if you are around sub 5% enrage asking to join. If they say no its whatever, but I've found being honest and polite pays in dividends. (Just be upfront with the rest of the party too once you join. Many PF raiders are very understanding and prefer honesty)

I have a huge issue with people using websites not because of the reason (100% valid)

but as somebody who cannot update it I rely on others. When I did M5S it showed nothing, then showed my best pull was 80% (?)
I was at enrage at that point (cleared today) so I checked to see what it said and.... it says I am at M6S at 100% and I have never stepped a foot into that raid.
I am very confused, am I missing something? I remember during FRU people would sometimes assume me "prog lie" I found out how they "check up".
I was shocked because, my progs were incorrectly updated.. and sometimes, never updated at all. Then I was able to do it. Now I am unable.
The problem with using this system is the inconsistency and it really hurts people like me who rely on others and where I play it is not common.
That is why this is a "cultural thing" more than "actual thing" but of course while I wish it was more accurate, there is another issue.
First time I hit enrage was after a few pulls... the problem out me getting to enrage? I was dead most of the time. But if I consider myself "A2C" I would not be a prog-liar if my results show that indeed I have seen enrage. This details I don't know, but seem inconsistent. What more is inconsistent is a data cannot see how someone feels.
I was less well today, and doing an hour prog A2C I made dumb mistakes over and over and I felt discouraged. If people saw this in NA/EU I would be called out no doubt.
Issue isn't that I haven't seen enrage many times alive at that point or prog lying: I had (aside of lag and 2 people DCing middle of the runs and my screen freezing) a bad day. Thankfully I was able to clear with no rewards but I am happy to say I lived through the entire fight (With 2x damage downs so no perfect!! Ok, whatever I got perfect groove twice!!) Anyway, I understand people's point but to rely on something so much is also relying on deceive in other hand.

Dodgelist, I would be more than likely to end up for "griefing" after joining one time and I happen to find out I have a bad day. And people are oversensitive, quickly stepped on their toes and until they make a mistakes "others are ruining it", a block should be when the person is both denial/rude and ruining the mood. Mistakes being considered "griefing" is griefing itself, nobody posting about others griefing played perfect either.

I am someone who is always honest with mistakes etc but most aren't ... I don't think there is a good solution yet... unless.... PF is setup in "phases" and you cannot join unless you LIVED through the phase, would fix everything! (Well, for me T_T)

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Originally Posted by Akamadoshi

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If they ask, all you have to do is say you are unable to update. Also, prog lying can be caught in a couple of pulls. You don't need a website for it.

I feel that it should be easy enough to register a datapoint: the longest time a player did a certain fight without a damage down or death debuff.
Can be expressed in boss HP percentage, or in fight time.
So it can be "prog point: 20%" or "prog point: 2m10s". Something like that.

This is with the moderate assumption that if you get a damage down or death, you failed the mechanic and that is your prog point.
I know in some cases you will get a damage down or death from other players but this is not meant to be entirely accurate.

With this datapoint per player, per fight, allow party finder groups to set a minimum prog point in the fight. It will exclude people that are before this prog point. They just can't join the party, period.
And when making a PF, you can't put a prog point further than your own.


It won't be a perfect mechanic, but it can weed out a bunch of prog liars right away.

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Originally Posted by Amarande

6. Yep. Duty Complete adds its own level of toxic and unhealthy, useful as it might be.

Start PF progging? Well you better death march that stuff because if you take a break and the others clear in the meanwhile, you can forget about continuing with them because they'll put up the Duty Complete wall so you're forced to put up "fresh prog" once more to actually get fills and your entire efforts have gone to waste, the way FFXIV mechanics work these days (in WoW this is more tolerable for various reasons).

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I recall old fights with perma deaths, was really fun when you could just wipe >_>

Somewhat it got more stressfull overall... you used to have time, but now its like, day two of an ex trail and its 95% "watch guide/look at raidguide" or "prog till xyz"
...personally i barely manage the ex trials due work and whenever i get there i either dont get blind groups or ppl lie on both ends, demanding enrage while failing phase one or say blind and half the party immediately places makers/use macros...

Idk it used to be more chilled...

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Originally Posted by Chiru_Kai

I feel that it should be easy enough to register a datapoint: the longest time a player did a certain fight without a damage down or death debuff.
Can be expressed in boss HP percentage, or in fight time.
So it can be "prog point: 20%" or "prog point: 2m10s". Something like that.

This is with the moderate assumption that if you get a damage down or death, you failed the mechanic and that is your prog point.
I know in some cases you will get a damage down or death from other players but this is not meant to be entirely accurate.

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This enshrines a mindset of "Play perfectly or else." which further enhances issues already mentioned (performance anxiety is detrimental to the game, especially when you consider MMOs have a playerbase that is getting older, works full time, and frankly, most real world jobs are getting a lot more demanding about pulling your weight ultra-perfectionistically THERE. I've lost count of the number of times our team manager at work goes "WE NEED ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!" The only grades anymore are A+ and F. Do we really want to just be told "Sorry, it's time to go, this game is for the Gary Gamerfuels of the world now"?)

And it doesn't matter if it was other players' fault, we have WoW to show us that this kind of at a glance rating thing will get taken as gospel by enough players to force anyone without a complete static bubble to hide in to go along with it (eg how many people are in Mythic+ dungeon runs they don't want to do, just because they need the oh so sacred SCORE from doing that dungeon at that level to get invited to the stuff they are actually interested in?).

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Idk it used to be more chilled...

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Yeah. It needs to get back that way.

But these days this perfectionistic hardcore "only your first mistake counts, anything you did after that you didn't actually learn" faction seems to control dang near every watering hole, PUGs are hardly worth the stress anymore, and I'm not sure if anything short of a political grade campaign is going to change things when anyone who pipes up too much can be taken care of at the press of a Ban button ...

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Originally Posted by Chiru_Kai

I feel that it should be easy enough to register a datapoint: the longest time a player did a certain fight without a damage down or death debuff.
Can be expressed in boss HP percentage, or in fight time.
So it can be "prog point: 20%" or "prog point: 2m10s". Something like that.

This is with the moderate assumption that if you get a damage down or death, you failed the mechanic and that is your prog point.
I know in some cases you will get a damage down or death from other players but this is not meant to be entirely accurate.

With this datapoint per player, per fight, allow party finder groups to set a minimum prog point in the fight. It will exclude people that are before this prog point. They just can't join the party, period.
And when making a PF, you can't put a prog point further than your own.


It won't be a perfect mechanic, but it can weed out a bunch of prog liars right away.

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I can see tons of issues here, from people getting gated despite knowing a fight cuz they got damage downs, to horribly insane gatekeeping and toxicity.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

I recall old fights with perma deaths, was really fun when you could just wipe >_>

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BA and DRS are good examples of permadeath fights. They're very fun because the mechanics are overall much more relaxed compared to modern fights.

As for the rest of the discussion, well. If the devs stop designing toxic fights, the playerbase stops being as toxic. It's really that simple. EW+ design is extremely toxic from a fight design perspective. They're making more frustrating, less satisfying content overall without making the difficulty truly meaningful. Worse than that, they're doing it in a way that's killing job design and breaking their own garbage netcode. Reverse course, make simpler fights, make classes more complex at the ceiling, everyone wins.

FFXIV is a better game when the content isn't overtuned and overly precise. And when people can self-select into difficulty via class selection. A case in point is stormblood BLM vs SMN vs RDM. RDM was for more movement and an easier caster experience, SMN for a little of both, BLM for a hard caster experience, mostly because of sitting still and casting. So RDM would do STB very easily, but god kefka would hit BLM like a truck every forsaken, and required very fun optimizing.

If 7.2 is indicative of future fight design, the devs need to reverse course immediately, because this current design philosophy will sink the game.

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Originally Posted by Valence

For a game that prides itself in removing all kinds of points of friction to reduce toxicity and soothe down its social experiences, it sure does manage to turn every other player into a potential hurdle or enemy. It certainly doesn't seem to foster a spirit of "we're in this together" kind of vibe.

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The game does remove friction in most aspects, ie pretty much anything that's casual. But this conflicts with savage+ so here we are...

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Originally Posted by Taranok

BA and DRS are good examples of permadeath fights. They're very fun because the mechanics are overall much more relaxed compared to modern fights.

As for the rest of the discussion, well. If the devs stop designing toxic fights, the playerbase stops being as toxic. It's really that simple. EW+ design is extremely toxic from a fight design perspective. They're making more frustrating, less satisfying content overall without making the difficulty truly meaningful. Worse than that, they're doing it in a way that's killing job design and breaking their own garbage netcode. Reverse course, make simpler fights, make classes more complex at the ceiling, everyone wins.

FFXIV is a better game when the content isn't overtuned and overly precise. And when people can self-select into difficulty via class selection. A case in point is stormblood BLM vs SMN vs RDM. RDM was for more movement and an easier caster experience, SMN for a little of both, BLM for a hard caster experience, mostly because of sitting still and casting. So RDM would do STB very easily, but god kefka would hit BLM like a truck every forsaken, and required very fun optimizing.

If 7.2 is indicative of future fight design, the devs need to reverse course immediately, because this current design philosophy will sink the game.

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Not sure I agree with that. Savage should not be an insurmountable wall to climb, but it should still be difficult with tons of personal responsibility. It should feel satisfying to clear and be able to execute the fight. You shouldn't just be carried or expected to be carried.

As for netcode discussion, I feel it's already pointless to beat a dead horse. They had 11 years to get a better engine/code or just adopt/convert to an already available one.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Not sure I agree with that. Savage should not be an insurmountable wall to climb, but it should still be difficult with tons of personal responsibility. It should feel satisfying to clear and be able to execute the fight. You shouldn't just be carried or expected to be carried.

As for netcode discussion, I feel it's already pointless to beat a dead horse. They had 11 years to get a better engine/code or just adopt/convert to an already available one.

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Honestly, if you played or remember stormblood fight design, it's the perfect mix of stress-ish free raiding while still being challenging. As a bonus, you can have absolutely wild recoveries that feel absolutely amazing to pull off in that style of raid design. And you can still do it while having hello world, a mechanic substantially harder than TOP's hello world, and feels much more satisfying even on casters.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

It's really that simple. EW+ design is extremely toxic from a fight design perspective.

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I think the biggest hazard was the wow exodus. Getting a huge bunch of players from a game which is already more toxic will cause a long lasting effect acros the entire player base.

Some of these players will stick, and newer players will copy that behaviour over. Which once its learned, is hard to unlearn as you dont notice the downsides yourself (as no one is going to tell you that, because it risk them getting banned instead).

So on that, i think SE should realy find some tools to make it easier to block unwanted players in content. It should be impossible for a fresh player to get into an enrage party (unless its a party deliberately made to carry). Practice, or duty completion are not enough as flags to the party. As a toxic player will always try to go for duty completion in their mind.

And the last problem: people cant/dont read. Even players that can clear the content dont read things like raidplan/hector/yuki etc. So even if you type enrage, there are plenty of people that just dont read and join anyway.

I think the best way to avoid toxicity is by making sure it cant happen. Sure, it sounds harsh to lock out a player from a PF. But its better for both sides, you wont be anoying 7 others, and you get motivated to join a party closer to your level.

Also, for savages the entire model of unlocking and getting loot does need a change. The forced 'in order' restriction is good for just unlocking, but disrupts when you want to help or have a static that is behind. If they are at m5s and close to clearing, while you prog m6s already, you are disrupting their loot drops. If you could go for m6s directly and prog there, and later with the static clear m5s, thats much better. We have a mentor roulette that is targeted at helping (by filling slots), yet in savage we get a model that does the opposite by punishing that same help.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

I think the biggest hazard was the wow exodus.

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With respect, the most toxic people I've personally met have been players who were here since HW and StB.

Your milage will vary. In my own experience the oldest players (XI players and ARR players) are extremely team-oriented and positive, HW and StB players tend to be extremely negative and commonly refuse to accept responsibility for wipes, and ShB/EW players tend to just shrug and move on when something goes wrong (and just pull again)

I cannot comment for the community as a whole though.