Please help me understand why/how Chaotic one last time? (because I'm done)

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

Not if they sold the game to a lot of people on the premise that it would contain other things too. At that point, it becomes deceptive advertising, a bait and switch con, and depending on which jurisdiction you're in, fraud.

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They don't specifically market the game to casual or hardcore players. If anything, XIV is known more for it's MSQ story, not hardcore raids. They do however release a lot of battle content overall which is what literally carries activity in the game long term. That falls anywhere between a Normal dungeon to an Ultimate raid.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

They don't specifically market the game to casual or hardcore players. If anything, XIV is known more for it's MSQ story, not hardcore raids. They do however release a lot of battle content overall which is what literally carries activity in the game long term. That falls anywhere between a Normal dungeon to an Ultimate raid.

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But that makes the behaviour you are excusing problematic, doesn't it? If they are only releasing content for the higher end of the raid scene, patch after patch, keeping mum about the finer details of the release schedule, pretty much starving everyone who plays this game for other things, but they are still marketing to a broad audience.. see the problem there?

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

But that makes the behaviour you are excusing problematic, doesn't it? If they are only releasing content for the higher end of the raid scene, patch after patch, keeping mum about the finer details of the release schedule, pretty much starving everyone who plays this game for other things, but they are still marketing to a broad audience.. see the problem there?

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But they haven't really kept mum, they told you exploratory content is coming in 7.2, earlier than before. So you already know that past 7.1 alliance raid and treasure maps, you have 7.2 content ready and waiting for you, alongside...more MSQ and likely a new dungeon. You can of course go into older content you haven't touched or challenge yourself with newer content being released, but we both know how that conversation goes so, yeah you can wait your turn or unsub till then.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

But they haven't really kept mum, they told you exploratory content is coming in 7.2, earlier than before. So you already know that past 7.1 alliance raid and treasure maps, you have 7.2 content ready and waiting for you, alongside...more MSQ and likely a new dungeon. You can of course go into older content you haven't touched or challenge yourself with newer content being released, but we both know how that conversation goes so, yeah you can wait your turn or unsub till then.

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"Your turn"... like exploration zones in the past haven't come with some manner of Extreme/Savage tier raid? BA? DRS? Either of these ring a bell?

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

"Your turn"... like exploration zones in the past haven't come with some manner of Extreme/Savage tier raid? BA? DRS? Either of these ring a bell?

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Sure but that's not really an issue specifically being talked about here. The point is certain people want to receive specific content they WANT to do and that's purely their choice. They COULD explore new forms of content or challenge themselves but they refuse to, again THEIR choice. Those same people have to accept that if they want to cross their arms and pout their chest while not engaging in any higher content, then yes they are creating the reality of "what content is for me" and will have to wait till the devs release something they want to do.

Also just to clarify, BA was required for the SB relic but DRS was not required for the SHB relic, it was entirely optional content iirc.

I don't know why I'm responding to this guy's bait thread, but...

I haven't stepped into the raid myself yet - so I'm not going to make any comments on its actual mechanics or their difficulty. In terms of design/presentation, though - it's a 24-man trial, just call it that... Alliance Raid implies things like adds (which can be done in an interesting way, look at Criterion, or even BA) and actual physical progression through zones, not "you zone in already on the platform in front of the only boss". OFC, the actual 8-man raids in the game used to be designed like ARs, too, but that's a whole different topic of discussion...

The only thing I really want to comment on, is people saying "I hoped this would be like/we'd get stuff around BA/DRS difficulty level" (which I agree with!), and getting replies like "well just wait until the new foray in 7.2".
Why does that particular level of content difficulty have to be restricted to forays?
It's totally fair for people to say "hey, this kind of content (BA/DRN/DRS) is fun - can we get more stuff like this without it being tied to a foray zone/progression?". Yes, we all know the foray is coming - but people want stuff to do without waiting over half a year out from the expansion release. Chaotic was a great opportunity to give something like that, but instead it ended being another Criterion. I'm not going to pout about it after the fact because they did warn us several times in advance "teehee we overtuned it", and it is what it is, but it definitely feels like another missed opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Well firstly, this question doesn't specifically matter. They are allowed to make content for whoever they want to.

Now if what you are meaning to say is "Why are they only making content for this demographic that I don't believe deserves it?" Well then, that really is a personal question to ask yourself vs a rhetorical one. People were asking for harder 24 man content over the years and new content exclusive to DT, and they released a 24man EX/ Savage tier fight. Best timing? Dunno
New type of content? Yes

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Yes. I understand that a gaming company makes the content they want to make. Similarly, they created these forums so we could provide feedback on that content.

Currently, that feedback basically fits in three buckets:

A. Frustration at the massive disparity between the amount of content created for high-end raiders and content for everyone else.
B. Raiders who are happy they are getting lots of content, but who feel CAR was implemented poorly.
C. Raiders who like CAR and want more.

Numerically, A+B>>C.

Now one can argue that developing game content based purely on what the majority wants can lead to insipid games, and I might even agree with that general principle. But when the bulk of your subscribers vigorously dislike content, a company that listens would conclude correctly that they massively screwed up.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

To me this is a side issue. The problem is why are they only making content for this demographic?

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Because a subset of them pay Square to advertise for them. Designing live service games for them is in vogue.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

But they haven't really kept mum, they told you exploratory content is coming in 7.2, earlier than before. So you already know that past 7.1 alliance raid and treasure maps, you have 7.2 content ready and waiting for you, alongside...more MSQ and likely a new dungeon. You can of course go into older content you haven't touched or challenge yourself with newer content being released, but we both know how that conversation goes so, yeah you can wait your turn or unsub till then.

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Slight correction or "question?".
Bozja didn't came out in 5.2 or 5.25 only Gangos and the first relic step did.
The fieldzone came out in 5.35.

So if they follow the same release shedule (and I would be surprised if not) then we won't see it in 7.2 or 7.25.
Did they actually officially say that it would be in 7.2x?

How are people defending this miserable content pipeline with the "It's OK, Just wait your turn" response. Especially when the game has been going for well over a decade.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Slight correction or "question?".
Bozja didn't came out in 5.2 or 5.25 only Gangos and the first relic step did.
The fieldzone came out in 5.35.

So if they follow the same release shedule (and I would be surprised if not) then we won't see it in 7.2 or 7.25.
Did they actually officially say that it would be in 7.2x?

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First step of the relic was released in addition to Varis Ex for the augmented gear, and then Southern Front was was 5.35.

Who actually knows what release schedule they are going to follow. Cosmic should be 7.21 I imagine, then the first part of Shade's Triangle in 7.25 would be my estimate. Now whether this actually includes the zone or not is different matter.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

How are people defending this miserable content pipeline with the "It's OK, Just wait your turn" response. Especially when the game has been going for well over a decade.

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It's actually genius on CS3's part. If everyone's constantly fighting each other over whose turn it should be, they can't complain about the game as a whole to try and get the miserable state of things fixed.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

How are people defending this miserable content pipeline with the "It's OK, Just wait your turn" response. Especially when the game has been going for well over a decade.



First step of the relic was released in addition to Varis Ex for the augmented gear, and then Southern Front was was 5.35.

Who actually knows what release schedule they are going to follow. Cosmic should be 7.21 I imagine, then the first part of Shade's Triangle in 7.25 would be my estimate. Now whether this actually includes the zone or not is different matter.

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They've always been extremely terrible about this sort of thing. They put out Heaven On High in 4.35 and Eureka Pagos in 4.36, effectively spamming us with two time consuming grind contents at once. I have no faith in their ability to space things out so that people who want to do both can do so without feeling pressured.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Sure but that's not really an issue specifically being talked about here. The point is certain people want to receive specific content they WANT to do and that's purely their choice. They COULD explore new forms of content or challenge themselves but they refuse to, again THEIR choice. Those same people have to accept that if they want to cross their arms and pout their chest while not engaging in any higher content, then yes they are creating the reality of "what content is for me" and will have to wait till the devs release something they want to do.

Also just to clarify, BA was required for the SB relic but DRS was not required for the SHB relic, it was entirely optional content iirc.

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First off, any content that isn't the main story is "optional" (including the Crystal Tower raids in ARR as mandatory). You're basically going "well u can either do harder content which u dont enjoy or cry about it, this is a u problem." That... isn't how that works? But sure, I'll play devil's advocate for your strange take. Lets say most people who find nothing "casual" in the game to do right now decided to hop into the new Chaotic, the Savages, and Extremes. What would happen? It wouldn't be harmony and everyone getting along enjoying the raiding, I know that much. As a raider (I infer this based on every other post you've mad recently, correct me if I'm wrong) I feel like you encouraging people to do content they don't want will just open up an avenue for you to then complain about something or another, which would, ironically make them enjoy raiding even less than they did initially. Choice implies there is an accept alternative to something being presented. Raiders are eating good currently, what is the alternate choice here? Is there casual content being added to the game that only Havenchild can see?

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

They've always been extremely terrible about this sort of thing. They put out Heaven On High in 4.35 and Eureka Pagos in 4.36, effectively spamming us with two time consuming grind contents at once. I have no faith in their ability to space things out so that people who want to do both can do so without feeling pressured.

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They also do release pvp ranked seasons (which I must remind, for people ranking high enough, take at least as much time as progging ultimates), right when they release savage tiers or ultimate fights.
In spite of asking them multiple times not to do it, they continue to do it. It's not a small part that made me actually step back from high end pve content altogether as from now on because that's just too damn much to take. Imagine progging 2 ultimates at the same time with 15+ hours a week on both individually.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

Anyway. I'm done. And I really don't every see myself coming back except out of morbid curiosity. Great as the people are in my new communities, I've got no connection to them now, and won't if I return. I won't be geared for high end. I 'will' be bored of casual. (I'm not going to enjoy the next Bozja unless its an Extreme level challenge. I don't enjoy drind unless there is a longer term goal. And I won't be planning on being there long term.)
Yeah we are just done.

(for those who've managed to avoid my posts the last couple of days, I bought a PS5 for the sofa, to add to my office 3080RTX PC account, just for this game, I 'enjoyed' this game so much getting from ARR to EW over 3.5 year.)

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My refund of over £70 of cancelled XIV and DT merch came through. Until Chaotic I was able to say "I saw the good in DT and it worked for me", and "I'll take a break but I'll be back, surely?"
But with Chaotic it's clear it's just abuse of my money to subsidise yet more content (suggested by a high end creator) for high end raiders, and made with an eye on creators.

But hey "you can't please everyone", so naturally just focus on high end I guess! lol

Every piece of content (make sure their is a version for High end) variant, criterion (so we gotta have savage with special rewards, you can't just leave them with the challenge)
Relic zones , well make sure they've got a savage but just for them with extra rewards.
Chaotic Savage (F dem casuals) they've still gor original cloud of darkness (even if they've never actually played the team thing because of iLvl.)
Savage, not only are they going to get it but they'll get it when they want it! Can't keep em waiting!
(Yeah we know COVID skipped a relic area, but that's casual, so you can wait)
Want to enjoy casual first too? (Well that's ok because it's casual and F casual. The F stands for Frontloading and it's reserved for High end! Based!)

But hey after a dreadful MSQ that you knew was dreadful, make little effort on an alliance that is a shadow of what alliances used to be, on the black of the previous mediocre non challenges of EW alliance also. Gut Aurum, gut keeper, gut other stuff I can't be bothered to look up the name of.
Gut the jobs because they are there to serve ultimates and loggers after all! (F dem casuals)
We gave you all that solo content! All that text to read in the new beast quest? Hours of fun pressing X! You must enjoy it? We copied it from the last beast quest and you enjoyed that? (Did I?) And all those quest dialog boxes! We spent a whole day choosing which ai to us :( . (Get back in your box!)
All those Fates to keep you busy! We even gave you the exact same ones you loved from EW! (and ShB, and SB , and HW and ARR)
You can't expect us to invent new mechanics for both High end andv casual. Don't be so selfish. You've got engaging battle content!
(Unless your on Chaos DC, in which case you can't queue it)

Nah, merch just felt like, I had no pride and was happy to keep having the piss taken.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

And all those quest dialog boxes! We spent a whole day choosing which ai to us :( . (Get back in your box!)

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The AI is very sorry to have disappointed you. To hopefully make up for it, the AI has rewritten your complaint as a punk rock song.


Lyrics:

(Verse 1)
Refund’s in, over seventy quid,
Cancelled my merch, yeah, that’s what I did.
Used to say DT had a spark for me,
“Take a break, I’ll be back, you’ll see!”

But now it’s Chaotic, I’ve opened my eyes,
Just paying for content the high end buys.
Creators and raiders, they’ve got it all,
The rest of us left to freefall.

(Chorus)
Oh, you can’t please everyone, that’s clear!
Just the top-tier, cheer for the top-tier!
Relics, variants, savage on demand,
Casuals get the scraps from your hand.

F for casuals, yeah, we’ll wait our turn,
Frontload the raiders, let the rest just burn.
F for casuals, they can queue and pray,
But they’re left out, day by day.

(Verse 2)
MSQ? Yeah, it’s barely alive,
Alliance content took a nosedive.
Jobs? They’re gutted, just serve the few,
Loggers and Ultimates, what’s left to do?

Oh, so much text! Press X to proceed,
Copy-paste quests are all that we need.
Fates we’ve seen since ARR,
Oh, how innovative you are!

(Chorus)
Oh, you can’t please everyone, that’s clear!
Just the top-tier, cheer for the top-tier!
Relics, variants, savage on demand,
Casuals get the scraps from your hand.

F for casuals, yeah, we’ll wait our turn,
Frontload the raiders, let the rest just burn.
F for casuals, they can queue and pray,
But they’re left out, day by day.

(Bridge)
Gut Aurum, gut Keeper, gut the rest,
Deliver mediocrity at its best.
"F for fun," that’s what you say,
While high-end gets it all their way.

(Outro)
Take my money, take my pride,
Leave me out of your raider’s ride.
Merch no more, I’m walking out,
Guess I’ve learned what you’re all about.

(Final Chorus)
Oh, you can’t please everyone, that’s clear!
Just the top-tier, cheer for the top-tier!
Relics, variants, savage on demand,
Casuals get the scraps from your hand.

F for casuals, yeah, we’ll wait our turn,
Frontload the raiders, let the rest just burn.
F for casuals, they can queue and pray,
But they’re left out, day by day.

MP3 (only for 24 hours)

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

snip
MP3 (only for 24 hours)

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That's absolutely brilliant. Sounds like the remarkable Honey Bane towards the end of The Fatal Microbes.

https://youtu.be/xAK0SMAPzdM?si=mO78IgFgyjMQRumB

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

The AI is very sorry to have disappointed you. To hopefully make up for it, the AI has rewritten your complaint as a punk rock song.


Lyrics:

(Verse 1)
Refund’s in, over seventy quid,
Cancelled my merch, yeah, that’s what I did.
Used to say DT had a spark for me,
“Take a break, I’ll be back, you’ll see!”
....

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F wonderful! Thank you!

And well shit. Yeah that did day it better than I do.
First AI took or jobs! Now AI takin' our agency as angry gamers!
Please please give that post some likes!
(Wonder if the primals will cover it at the next fan event? XD )

It's that REALLY AI though?
Honestly I dont believe it is. Maybe a little help from AI, but a lot of human help along the way.
The song is that AI?! Maybe. But I could believe there are some really talented filkers decided they'd rather record than spend another afternoon waiting for Chaotic to disband.
Was this AI?

I don't think they were necessarily putting out gear that they flagged as Ultimate BiS (since that's really a community driven thing) but 730 gear that has different sub-stats that could be better BiS options for some classes, like healers. IIRC in some cases, they were using crafted in BiS. Having alternatives to get BiS gear options has been something commonly asked for, be it through something like this or making Criterion more attractive to do.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I don't think they were necessarily putting out gear that they flagged as Ultimate BiS (since that's really a community driven thing) but 730 gear that has different sub-stats that could be better BiS options for some classes, like healers. IIRC in some cases, they were using crafted in BiS. Having alternatives to get BiS gear options has been something commonly asked for, be it through something like this or making Criterion more attractive to do.

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The healer BiS was previously something around 722 because the actual savage gear had several pieces with nothing but dump stats. It'd be nice if they rebalanced things like piety relative to crit/dhit, but their previous attempts to do so have obviously failed to make it an attractive stat.