M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

@all the people saying "so, only elite players can do this, the best of the best".

That's the thing lads - this should numerically not be allowed to be possible, especially not in week 2 when we are far from BiS. It doesn't matter if 10%, 1% or 0,1% can pull this off in week 2, it's a continued design mistake.
Tanks and DPS should not have this much sustain combined. Mitigation is one thing, but the HP restoration available gives a position of making healers redundant, no matter how slim the margin for error is.

Does it take flawless gameplay and nobody taking unnecessary damage? Yeah. But beyond that, if you can literally just map out healing from tanks + DPS like you are mapping out mitigations and damage cooldowns and make healers unnecessary, then Healers are cooked.

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Originally Posted by Stabegabe

No, I disagree. First of all, we're talking about savage, something that's supposed to be high end content. If I choose to play a healer, and then enter high end content, I would expect to be challenged on my ability to heal. And the fact that people are able to clear this content with no healers should paint a very, VERY clear picture that square is failing to do that at all. Seriously, this is supposed to be the hard content. It should literally be mathematically impossible to do it without a healer. It's not about the fact that "oh this is a case of exceptional players clearing a challenge run," it's about the fact that it's even possible in the first place

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LMAO no. yeah sure lets give healers more of an excuse to have a god complex. "mathematically impossible" omfg get over yourself.

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Originally Posted by alfarini

LMAO no. yeah sure lets give healers more of an excuse to have a god complex. "mathematically impossible" omfg get over yourself.

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They're correct, it should not be mathematically possible. At least, in a game designed to slot the appropriate roles it should not be possible. Either the game isn't balanced to those roles as it is currently, or they need to abandon the roles as they exist outright. This middle-ground stuff doesn't really work. And you can call these people 'elite' players all you want, but they did it without BIS, while the content was still piping fresh. Imagine what 'elite' players will do with BIS?

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

This game actually has a recurring mechanic where everyone in the party will be reduced to 1 HP and given a Doom debuff which must be cleansed by healing to full.

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The last time we saw that was 2.5 years ago.

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Originally Posted by alfarini

LMAO no. yeah sure lets give healers more of an excuse to have a god complex. "mathematically impossible" omfg get over yourself.

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Healers having a god complex or wanting an excuse for it? Mate, healers are begging for a place to be needed other than 3 out of 5 ultimates. If you think wanting to be needed is equal to living out a god complex, then you lost the plot. Take your own advice and get over yourself.

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Originally Posted by alfarini

LMAO no. yeah sure lets give healers more of an excuse to have a god complex. "mathematically impossible" omfg get over yourself.

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Actually it's really just as simple as me wanting to heal more and have a more engaging role lmao.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I'd like to see this with Drk Knights, Brd, MCH, Sam, Drg, Ninja, Viper and BLM dps lol

It's a specific comp where everyone has healing, carried specifically with the overhealing PLD/WAR does, given they are half the group.

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Your post only further points out how unbalanced the game has become.
PLD/WAR are over healing while doing more damage than Healers. So what exactly is stopping people from just replacing Healers with an extra set of tanks to cover the healing requirements? Nascent Flash and Intervention would cover the same purposes of Tetra, Essential Dignity, etc. while Shake it Off and Divine Veil cover for the AoE healing purposes of Indom, Collective Unconsciousness, etc. to say nothing of the 2 extra Reprisals being brought to the table as well. Hell, it's now possible to have 100% uptime on Reprisal with 4 tanks due to the increased duration and if the boss becomes untargetable to prevent someone from apply Reprisal, Passage of Arms can cover as it's been doing for years. At the very least, you can outright replace any WHM with a PLD/WAR and get more mitigation, damage and equivalent levels of heals without issue.

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Originally Posted by Willemdarke

This used to be my exact mentality, but at this point it's happened with too many different fights, not to mention only on week 2.

Between this, the 2 min meta and job homogenisation, the whole system is a mess and needs to be redone from the ground up

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I don't disagree, it's pretty laughable. But we knew about this a very long time now, so I guess we will get one of these videos every new content release.

I can't even really get to the point where I can care or get upset anymore.

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Originally Posted by Connor

And I strongly disagree that this essentially ‘means nothing’

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Nowhere in my post did I suggest that it "means nothing." I just implied that there are more than just healers being excluded - DRK and all the DPS that don't heal weren't invited either.

I just lack the energy at this point to feel surprise or shock, or really have much of a reaction to the same news delivered over and over.

We already knew other roles had too much healing, and/or there is not enough damage when people play well, so this is just more of the same to me.

They really need to add in more often raidwides and up the frequency of tank damage (or just make all raid boss autos auto crits)



And then nerf tank sustains.

This shouldn't be a take, but no one should feel like they are playing an invalidated role. While this is kinda cool, and impressive, it does kinda show there are serious balance issues between healers, and the other roles.

Eh, not impressed, it's known content can be cleared without healers, even ultimates. Ultimately this will fall on deaf ears because JP playerbase is very much satisfied with the current state of healers since it's their "braindead relax" job for roulettes where they don't want to heal more nor be given more options to dps to feel engaged.

So the complaint is "the fact that it is possible at all shows it's completely obsolete"?

It's along the same line as saying something silly like:
"omg people are drinking soup straight from the bowl, shows how spoons are completely obsolete!"

like... ???
Until this is meta, this is just a meme clear done by people who probably planned this out and had many failed attempts. Let them play however they want and the rest of the normal players will just continue to have 2 healers, including a full on guide for the exact party layout, and still can't clear a fight.

Next raid tier they have to try it on week 1.

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Originally Posted by alfarini

LMAO no. yeah sure lets give healers more of an excuse to have a god complex. "mathematically impossible" omfg get over yourself.

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And of course, you're aware it's already "mathematically impossible" to do it without tanks, or without DPSs, right ?

What's so strange to ask the same for healers ?

The only 2 reason people are still bringing healers is
1) raid targeting mechanic and guide being adapted to it.
2) making up for mistakes.

Healer are useless in a group who makes none. If you haven't played one you don't know how useless you fell in week8+ when kills are clear.
Well this patch its even worse than usual and we're tired of 6+years of neglect. To all those spewing excuse like its only elite player, please play healer and come back if you still think the same.

Hats off to doing it, honestly. At least everyone got to use their full kits since I don't think anyone really has to use second wind or bloodbath otherwise.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

SE white knights remain as predictable as usual.

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This...is just a sad cop-out that says you know you can't actually refute the point being made.

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As a side not imagine comparing the balance and self imposed challenge of a single player game and think its a valid example to justifiy the glaring issues of a multiplayer one

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Is this just having no idea what's going on, or intentionally "missing" the point and setting up a false argument because you can't refute the real one? I could just as well have pointed to people who pull off "Ironman" challenges in MMO's, heck there's a guy who played WoW Classic and successfully wall-to-wall pulled Maraudon (one of the longer dungeons in the game that doesn't have the artificial "walls" seen in FFXIV dungeons) while playing solo with no gear. The simple point is there will always be highly skilled players in any game who find ways to challenge themselves and accomplish things that 99.9% of those playing the game will never do. It doesn't matter what kind of game, solo or group content, whatever.

You're also starting with a false premise in talking about "glaring issues", which inevitably leads to a false conclusion. I could just as easily (and more accurately) say "Imagine taking what a select group of elite players can do and thinking it's a valid example to justify fundamentally changing the game for everyone else (who has no shot at pulling that off)."

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This used to be my exact mentality, but at this point it's happened with too many different fights, not to mention only on week 2.

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The "week 2" thing isn't really relevant anymore, because it might be "week 2" of that particular raid, but the people raiding it likely have years of experience. For a good comparison, look at "world first" clears of Heroic/Mythic raids in WoW over time. It went from taking 2-4 months for world-first clears in WoW's early days to consistently under 2 weeks in later expansions. It's even more staggering if you compare kill times in the earlier days of Retail WoW with the same bosses in Classic WoW, where it went from taking months to most clears happening *on release day* (or a day later at worst). The players doing these top-tier things have mastered the game itself - you're going to see things like this with any fight in a relatively short time no matter what happens. It still doesn't mean anything for what the vast majority of the playerbase actually experiences.

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Originally Posted by Chiru_Kai

So the complaint is "the fact that it is possible at all shows it's completely obsolete"?

It's along the same line as saying something silly like:
"omg people are drinking soup straight from the bowl, shows how spoons are completely obsolete!"

like... ???
Until this is meta, this is just a meme clear done by people who probably planned this out and had many failed attempts. Let them play however they want and the rest of the normal players will just continue to have 2 healers, including a full on guide for the exact party layout, and still can't clear a fight.

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You're completely missing the point. We were told that healers had "engaging" gameplay in Savage/Ultimate. To do this without actual healers means that there's so little "engaging gameplay" for healers, that you can complete the fights without even needing one. Which means that the heal checks are so damned low that we're still pushing the same god damned boring one button spam as we are in content since the level 10 guildhest. Why the hell are you defending healers having the same damn gameplay for 90 levels?!

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Healers having a god complex or wanting an excuse for it? Mate, healers are begging for a place to be needed other than 3 out of 5 ultimates. If you think wanting to be needed is equal to living out a god complex, then you lost the plot. Take your own advice and get over yourself.

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Thing is I think most player still need healers to clear the content. What you are asking for is not to be needed cause as stated most players need healers to beat content. What you really want is more engaging content.

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Originally Posted by Grann-Goro

And of course, you're aware it's already "mathematically impossible" to do it without tanks, or without DPSs, right ?

What's so strange to ask the same for healers ?

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Not so sure about that with how pathetic the DPS check is this tier.

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Originally Posted by Wyti

Healer are useless in a group who makes none. If you haven't played one you don't know how useless you fell in week8+ when kills are clear.

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Healer for 10 years, never had that problem. And I have been in with some HC groups on the way.

If the people in your group make you feel useless for being a healer, sound like you played with the wrong group.

If you just feel useless yourself just because your group doesn't make mistake, then I think you have a self-esteem problem.

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Originally Posted by Isala

You're completely missing the point. We were told that healers had "engaging" gameplay in Savage/Ultimate. To do this without actual healers means that there's so little "engaging gameplay" for healers, that you can complete the fights without even needing one. Which means that the heal checks are so damned low that we're still pushing the same god damned boring one button spam as we are in content since the level 10 guildhest. Why the hell are you defending healers having the same damn gameplay for 90 levels?!

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Where exactly am I saying that?
I am simply saying that until this is meta, healers do have a job in 99% of parties.
By all means, go into PF with another healer, and only use your DOT and Glare/Dosis/Broil/Malefic and see how far your party will actually go in savage and ultimate content. Pretty sure you will be kicked in no-time for not healing.
How many statics do you see without any healers in it right now? How many parties for savage in PF have 1 or 0 healers?
Try to base your stance on realism, not on the exceptions to the standard.


I can understand wanting harsher heal checks, or a significant potency reduction on healing by other jobs. I'm all for that, and I never said I wasn't.
But I'm not freaking out because some cracked raiders do something exceptional.

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Originally Posted by Wyti

The only 2 reason people are still bringing healers is
1) raid targeting mechanic and guide being adapted to it.
2) making up for mistakes.

Healer are useless in a group who makes none. If you haven't played one you don't know how useless you fell in week8+ when kills are clear.
Well this patch its even worse than usual and we're tired of 6+years of neglect. To all those spewing excuse like its only elite player, please play healer and come back if you still think the same.

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"healer are useless" said the one who glare 260 times lmao.

It doesn't matter how good these players are, it still exemplifies that there's way too much healing coming from tank/DPS jobs.

I don't get what's so hard to understand. Yeah not everyone can do it but the fact that it's doable AT ALL and an entire role is not needed is a problem. You can't have a trinity role game and then not need 1 of the three roles.

Here's the thing people aren't realizing, this is just the first one. Now that's it's been proven to be possibly people are gonna start pushing this as far as it can go. We already know we can do it With 7 people (I think 6 might be possible), now we're gonna see them try and lower the number of tanks needed from 4 to 2, and maybe even do 7 man teams for it.

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Originally Posted by Lak14

"healer are useless" said the one who glare 260 times lmao.

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That's my point...

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Maybe it's time for Healers to be able to deal more damage than tanks to compensate for their frailty.

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The more damage healers do the bigger punishment it will be to heal so healers won't heal, definitely not with GCD spells. This isn't the best approach to solving the problem.

I don't see problems with the healers, because there aren't healers.
I see a problem with the survivability of certain classes.
More -esuna- mechanics and reduce the autohealing/damage reduction of tanks and dps, because this is the brother thread of the lonely tank doing dungeon and trial bosses.

Sometime the carrot is the right choice, but in this case is an hard, knotty stick.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

More -esuna- mechanics and reduce the autohealing/damage reduction of tanks and DPS, because this is the brother thread of the lonely tank doing dungeon and trial bosses.

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Esuna isn't a good solution. You would be there just because of one button that is 1/0. The healer can't be the master of life and death in parties or suddenly bad healers will fail to complete a run and either get kicked or the group disbands. Then if it repeats people will go to Party Finder instead of using DF directly. The game doesn't even require job stones. Rapid healing would also be limited by slower GCD and then it would need to push more and more off-GCD. There is no singular fix for healers to have fun in this game. It would have to be big and redefining roles and what the holy trinity is and if it's still needed.

Meanwhile in PF; the tanks die to autos during M2S all the time rofl.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

The healer can't be the master of life and death in parties or suddenly bad healers will fail to complete a run and either get kicked or the group disbands.

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You already have this with tank. For example in M3S if one of the tank forgot to pop mit for the 6x buster (or forgot to pop invul in time), the boss will proceed one shooting 6/8 players.

So why can't you have some mech that will put the onus on the healer?

Frankly this is the exact mentality that put healers in the current situation. It seems the design have no qualm about heaping additional task/responsibility onto other roles, while healers is treated like endanger-protective species ... or just moron, idk. But it's clear the design always seem to try to avoid healer specific responsibility that may "overwhelm" us. And that mentality is probably why healers have such a boring life.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

The more damage healers do the bigger punishment it will be to heal so healers won't heal, definitely not with GCD spells. This isn't the best approach to solving the problem.

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That can be solved by making GCD heals not utter dogwater.

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Originally Posted by Wyti

The issue is it being possible at all on week 2 of content release.
Pretty sure 99% of players haven't cleared M4S yet.

healer are already useless in most form on content, and know, in the hardest content in the game, on the second week, we are already shown that it is better to play with tanks instead.
Healers do the least damage in the game, are the most fragile role in the game, and their niche isn't even useful to the group since tank can do it + do better damage and be safer, what more do you need ?

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Every time I use roulettes to do dailies, healers are mandatory so they aren't useless in any form on content. In PVP modes like frontlines some of them are nearly OP such as AST/SCH.

That's why my gameplay should be fun in leveling roulette as a healer because you need me :)

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

You already have this with tank. For example in M3S if one of the tank forgot to pop mit for the 6x buster (or forgot to pop invul in time), the boss will proceed one shooting 6/8 players.

So why can't you have some mech that will put the onus on the healer?

Frankly this is the exact mentality that put healers in the current situation. It seems the design have no qualm about heaping additional task/responsibility onto other roles, while healers is treated like endanger-protective species ... or just moron, idk. But it's clear the design always seem to try to avoid healer specific responsibility that may "overwhelm" us. And that mentality is probably why healers have such a boring life.

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Yep. At the end of the day, each role in the trinity needs a responsibility that cannot be done without it. ESPECIALLY in EX trials and savage raiding.

I noticed that a lot of people seem to be missing that fights in this game are generally very minimal in RNG, the bosses mostly follow a timeline and you won't get any surprises.

That being said, if someone decides to make a cooldown usage spreadsheet for a no healer clear of content, most of the people who can clear savage would be able to use that spreadsheet to do it without healers.

It's not an elite player thing, you just need players that are above average, capable of doing mechanics and able to follow a cooldown spreadsheet.

Also, regarding all the people who say "It's just a challenge run!", we did have challenge runs pre-ShB where the game was better balanced, we had soloheal runs. No healer runs on current content means the game is balanced badly, there's no excuses for it.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I noticed that a lot of people seem to be missing that fights in this game are generally very minimal in RNG, the bosses mostly follow a timeline and you won't get any surprises.

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I don't disagree but it's becoming rather sad that no one ever calls out CBU3 for their complete creative bankruptcy in designing anything other than dance fights.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Meanwhile in PF; the tanks die to autos during M2S all the time rofl.

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I mean, if healers are optional, maybe the takeaway is "autoattack damage seems like a Tank Problem, not a Healer Problem." ;)

(I am joking, of course. ...well, maybe like 85% joking / 15% serious.)

Ah yes people build a specific comp around having no healers and clear... that's so wild, I'm not going to pretend this is shocking because clears without healers have been a pretty common trend.

I think if anything the trinity system needs to be actually reworked because it's clearly not working for support jobs (both tanks and healers).

Can ask what should be the "solution" to this, but it would just be "lets remove all forms of healing/utility" on non-healer roles most likely which is generally what i hear. I can understand why people who main healer would want that, but I also think you have to acknowledge that it would hurt tank/dps design quite a lot by limiting what they can do, in how a job can bring something unique to the table.

I'm personally against removing all forms of "non-healer" healing, but i think theirs cases where it can be tuned down, or give healers more advantages, Tank healing in some cases can be tuned down I don't think shake it off needs a regen, I don't think bloodwhetting should be per enemy ect, but in general some non-healer healing cooldowns I think are fine.

But I do think the "trinity system"... the current job designs needs a entire rework anyway.