Dark Knight was bad even in Endwalker but

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

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You are tanking even when everyone is alive which is like 97% of the time

I just don't get why it's such a huge factor to call a tank bad when its something that rarely happens or/and that's not supposed to happen. Why does solo survivability have such importance? How many times does it happen for it to be this important?

Talking about party members being optional is something that happens even less, why would any tank try to do that except to prove a point?

And because that part doesnt make sense, the correlation with that and DRK being weak doesn't make sense either because dungeon content is designed around Healer-Tank-DPS content, why imply that SE are tuning content around DRK solo tanking?

the tl;dr is that again all I can get from that is that, you often get parties where people die and you're the only one alive, which is why survivability matters so much in how you rank tanks. Tell me if I'm correct or not, to me this is the gist of your point and your posts

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But then you're also talking about raid, which is a very different subject

First off, not only I'm assuming you're talking about savage that is not even out yet, because I don't think physical or magical raidwides really matter in normal, but choosing DRK in savage is

#1 All content is clearable by all jobs
#2 Personal preference, which mind you is a very important reason to choose a tank even in content like savage, unless you plan on parsing or speedrunning why would any reason other to choose a tank matter? If you are a midcore savage player, by the time you get to the last floor you will outgear it damage wise and mitigation wise, if you do mechanics right and very little deaths, DRK or not, you're not enraging the last floor
#3 DPS checks differences only really matter when you're a world prog group running at the lowest ilvl, assuming nothing happens with the HP tuning like P8SP1, DRKs will clear this raid at LEAST by week 2, if not even week 1
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Saying I don't care about tankiness means you haven't been reading my posts so let me clarify my stance once again:

A tank that can do wall to wall pulls comfortably without putting a strain on themselves, and be in situations where they HAVE to invuln to survive or make their healer run out of mana or have to GCD heal, is good tank.

if on top of that you have powerful self heal abilities (reminder that DRK does have Abyssal Drain btw) then you are a VERY good tank, because you dont have to press all your mit buttons for your healer to be comfortable.

The rest of your post is just personal preference on the design of the job, you're entitled to that.

Most of yall in this thread are perpetuating the "DRK bad" meme since Endwalker because you consider powerful self heals to be the new standard for tanking or because you are meeting DRKs that think only pressing TBN in a pull will save them, I can't do that.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

You are tanking even when everyone is alive which is like 97% of the time

I just don't get why it's such a huge factor to call a tank bad when its something that rarely happens or/and that's not supposed to happen. Why does solo out raid, which is

#1 All content is clearable by all jobs
#2 Personal preference, which mind you is a very important reason to choose a tank even in content like savage, unless you plan on parsing or speedrunning why would any reason other to choose a tank matter? If you are a midcore savage player, by the time you get to the last floor you will outgear it damage wise and mitigation wise, if you do mechanics right and very little deaths, DRK or not, you're not enraging the last floor
#3 DPS checks differences only really matter when you're a world prog group running at the lowest ilvl, assuming nothing happens with the HP tuning like P8SP1, DRKs will clear this raid at LEAST by week 2, if not even week 1
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Saying I don't care about tankiness means you haven't been reading my posts so let me clarify my stance once again:

A tank that can do wall to wall pulls comfortably without putting a strain on themselves, and be in situations where they HAVE to invuln to survive or make their healer run out of mana or have to GCD heal, is good tank.

if on top of that you have powerful self heal abilities (reminder that DRK does have Abyssal Drain btw) then you are a VERY good tank, because you dont have to press all your mit buttons for your healer to be comfortable.

The rest of your post is just personal preference on the design of the job, you're entitled to that.

Most of yall in this thread are perpetuating the "DRK bad" meme since Endwalker because you consider powerful self heals to be the new standard for tanking or because you are meeting DRKs that think only pressing TBN in a pull will save them, I can't do that.

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You clearly love the job as it is

Again job being bad doesn't mean it is that you aren't allowed to enjoy it.

I am working as analytics and I know how to read data

Let's have a matrix to clear what is good and what is bad:

How tank should be evaluated?
Tankiness: 10 points
Damage: 10 points
Utility: 10 points
How it will performe in different type of combs: 10 points
Performance as MT: 10 points
Performance as OT: 10 points
How much they require healer in intermediate contant: 10 points
Job rotation optimization: 10 pointa
You cad add more parameters and let's evaluate all tanks and see what is the worst even OBJECTIVELY

There's already far enough data, you don't need to theorycraft.
These were taken from random tanks that ranked around the 100th place in healing EX1, mitigation is calculated as well.

GNB 6.230HPS, 11% OH, ~5.630 effective HPS
https://i.imgur.com/wg02G92.png

DRK 5.600HPS, 6% OH, ~5.300 effective HPS
https://i.imgur.com/HTiRn84.png

WAR 8.700HPS, 30% OH, ~6.100 effective HPS
https://i.imgur.com/XNh2qbG.png

PLD 7.500HPS, 19% OH, ~6.000 effective HPS
https://i.imgur.com/cUrhlm4.png

DRK is behind, that's true, but it's not apocalyptic either.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

How tank should be evaluated?
Tankiness: 10 points
Damage: 10 points
Utility: 10 points
How it will performe in different type of combs: 10 points
Performance as MT: 10 points
Performance as OT: 10 points
How much they require healer in intermediate contant: 10 points
Job rotation optimization: 10 pointa
You cad add more parameters and let's evaluate all tanks and see what is the worst even OBJECTIVELY

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Can we had to this other stuff?
Like things related to gameplay for example :

Having abilities that does almost the same thing, visually and in effect and are not tied to each other.
(flood of shadow, shadowbringer and disesteem)
10 points

Having your abilities stripped from you and some of them given to other classes with nothing in exchange.
10 points

Does your abilities fit the intended class identity or are they just here because they fit the color theme and looks cool (hello again disesteem)
10 points

Are there any abilities that look and feel like they are not particularly tied to your class and could belong to any other one in term of gameplay and visual.
10 points
(that is just me hating shadowstride, at least create a dark fog effect when we use it, please. This spell looks like it could belong to any other spellcaster and no one would notice.)

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

You are tanking even when everyone is alive which is like 97% of the time

I just don't get why it's such a huge factor to call a tank bad when its something that rarely happens or/and that's not supposed to happen. Why does solo survivability have such importance? How many times does it happen for it to be this important?

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Then let me add the word effectively.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

Talking about party members being optional is something that happens even less, why would any tank try to do that except to prove a point?

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It's not about if they will, it's about if they can do things others can't. You're interjecting a player act into the design philosophy of the jobs, that has no place in this discussion

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

And because that part doesnt make sense, the correlation with that and DRK being weak doesn't make sense either because dungeon content is designed around Healer-Tank-DPS content, why imply that SE are tuning content around DRK solo tanking?

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

Now, I'm not naive enough to think that DRK is the only reason content is so easy on the other tanks

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If you don't understand what I am saying just ask instead of trying to use conjecture. What I'm saying is that any content DRK can clear the other tanks can clear more effectively, and therein lies the problem.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

the tl;dr is that again all I can get from that is that, you often get parties where people die and you're the only one alive, which is why survivability matters so much in how you rank tanks. Tell me if I'm correct or not, to me this is the gist of your point and your posts

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Incorrect, my point is that in the event things go poorly for the party DRK is the only tank I feel like I can't do anything to turn the tides of battle. The frequency of the occurrence has nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

But then you're also talking about raid, which is a very different subject

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Hi, I work in game balance, and no it isn't.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

First off, not only I'm assuming you're talking about savage that is not even out yet, because I don't think physical or magical raidwides really matter in normal, but choosing DRK in savage is

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Do you think the damage types will change from Normal to Savage? The normal mode that is the prelude and base of the design for the savage?

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

#1 All content is clearable by all jobs

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Yes, but again the issue isn't if it can, it's if it's a good choice to pick that one. I can run 1 mile in dress shoes, but I'd rather use running shoes or sneakers.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

#2 Personal preference, which mind you is a very important reason to choose a tank even in content like savage, unless you plan on parsing or speedrunning why would any reason other to choose a tank matter? If you are a midcore savage player, by the time you get to the last floor you will outgear it damage wise and mitigation wise, if you do mechanics right and very little deaths, DRK or not, you're not enraging the last floor

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If you as a player are willing to choose a suboptimal choice for your content that doesn't do its absolute best then that's a perfectly fine choice for you and your group, but some of us don't have groups or statics and resort to PF groups where we're expected to pick up the slack for the less efficient players and push ourselves to the absolute maximum to do what they cannot, in which case, DRK is the obvious choice to leave behind outside of personal choice, and a good amount of players do not want to intentionally choose the worse option.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

#3 DPS checks differences only really matter when you're a world prog group running at the lowest ilvl, assuming nothing happens with the HP tuning like P8SP1, DRKs will clear this raid at LEAST by week 2, if not even week 1

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Not accurate even in the slightest. Performance always matters at every stage.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

Saying I don't care about tankiness means you haven't been reading my posts so let me clarify my stance once again:

A tank that can do wall to wall pulls comfortably without putting a strain on themselves, and be in situations where they HAVE to invuln to survive or make their healer run out of mana or have to GCD heal, is good tank.

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I had to Invuln plenty on DRK if I wanted to pull at the pace of PLD and WAR because I just ran out of mits where the others didn't. I mean, I didn't need to invuln, and usually when I did healers didn't see it and just GCD healed me anyway because LD is so poorly designed that using it without a notification macro will make it go completely unnoticed. I could have just slowed down, but have you seen how random DPS players run dungeons these days? You are expected to go at WAR/PLD/GNB pace in pulls just because that makes up 75% of the tank jobs (idk about play rate) and that plays into the factor of why DRK balance is a problem. It creates an unhealthy environment for the DRK and for parties that have DRK in them. I can take 3 left turns to go right, but it was still better to just take one right turn.

And before I see "Then you were undergeared" No. In 14 you cannot enter a dungeon undergeared, everyone in the dungeon meets the gear requirement set by the balance team regardless of current ilvl in that space. This "undergeared/overgeared" discussion for dungeons is silly and I will not have it in a discussion about class balance. If anything, my DRK was better geared because I saved all my dungeon gear for it.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

if on top of that you have powerful self heal abilities (reminder that DRK does have Abyssal Drain btw) then you are a VERY good tank, because you dont have to press all your mit buttons for your healer to be comfortable.

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Even if you assume you are hitting 20 targets (A LOT) with AD it still doesn't even reach GNB healing, and GNB is third in healing potency (arguably higher than the others in healing efficiency since HoC is an excog effect making it highly unlikely to overheal) and a 1 minute cooldown is a long time so calling it a powerful effect is logical fallacy. Hallowed Ground on PLD is considered to be one of the worst tank invulns despite having an inarguably better effect than the other invulns, but it's regarded as a weakness due to it's colossal cooldown. Calling AD a powerful tool is outright misleading. It's a "Once per pull" took that every other tank has 2 of in a pull.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

The rest of your post is just personal preference on the design of the job, you're entitled to that.

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Hi, I work in game balance. DRK is designed poorly with extremely limited interactivity with its own kit, and while I don't work in design, I work in balance, this is the kind of design I'd send back to the design team on the grounds that they've made my job harder with this jobs design.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

Most of yall in this thread are perpetuating the "DRK bad" meme since Endwalker because you consider powerful self heals to be the new standard for tanking or because you are meeting DRKs that think only pressing TBN in a pull will save them, I can't do that.

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Nobody here thinks only pressing TBN will save them. I can link the math to you if you like, but DRK is suffering. And this is particularly strange because it looks like you're admitting it's weak next to the other tanks cooldowns and recovery tools. It's okay to like DRK, I liked the inarguably unhealthy Stance Dancing that was terrible for the tanks playerbase back in 3.0, but I'm not so bullheaded I'll sit here and say it was a good thing. I liked something that was probably bad and that's okay, I miss it but I am glad its gone because it has seen the game I play and care about succeed easier in the hands of the players, which is exactly what I want for DRK. It doesn't even need major changes. I'd like to see major changes, but honestly I think that a handful of small changes solves everything, and I can do it without adding healing if you like.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

Most of yall in this thread are perpetuating the "DRK bad" meme

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https://i.imgflip.com/1jgrgn.jpg?a478104

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

That's highly manipulative to only take burst window.
In burst window, WAR has as much oGCDs as GNB, does that means WAR is as busy as GNB?
DRK's oGCDs are much more flexible and half of them are Edge of Darkness.

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Guess we just have different definitions of the word "busy" then. I view it was pressing a lot of buttons in a short time.
GCD centric jobs dont feel busy to me. Since you're always going to be rolling GCDs no matter where you are in a rotation. And GNB feels like a GCD centric job to me now especially with the lionheart combo and double down.

I'll give you GNB is more strict. But strictness wasn't really what I was refering to. Simply that GNB isnt that doubleweave monster it used to be, and thus no longer feels busy to me.
But in terms of oGCDs that bit of GNB also is fairly flexible, press continuation after gnashing fang, press blasting zone and bow shock on CD.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

Most of yall in this thread are perpetuating the "DRK bad" meme since Endwalker because you consider powerful self heals to be the new standard for tanking or because you are meeting DRKs that think only pressing TBN in a pull will save them, I can't do that.

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I think DRK is bad right now because the MP nerfs are a lot more impactful than streamers who do not play the job let on. -2400 MP between bursts plus slightly less from syphon strike due to +1 Bloodspiller and Disesteem. If you think DRK feels bad right now this is why.

If you're playing optimally, you get 3 uses of TBN between bursts.
But Dark Side is now a ticking clock that demands more MP from you at specific intervals, so unless those use cases of TBN line up perfectly with the boss, there's a good chance you'll be caught without it.
But if you want the most optimal play you need TBN to break at a very, very specific point in the now, so you can bring the maximum of 5 edges into the burst window. Not to early to overcap, not to late to not be able to get back up to max MP. This was easier to manage in Endwalker due to higher mp values.

The end result I'm finding is that you want to use TBN as little as possible to make this easier to optimize, or memorize the fight down to when you can perfectly break TBN without issue. So in a lot of cases DRK can't really freely use its short mit to shield itself anymore, let alone allies.

Do I think the devs will fix this come 7.05? lol no they dont care.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

DRK is behind, that's true, but it's not apocalyptic either.

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This is Pointless data for dungeon content, DRK is simply garbage in dungeons.
The self healing sucks, and the Invul sucks even harder.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

This is Pointless data for dungeon content

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I disagree with this. If DRK was sufficient in dungeons we'd probably see the numbers be even closer. What I think we see when we go into dungeons is that eHPS being exaggerated over multiple targets at a time during pulls. The numbers are relevant they just function differently in different scenarios. Not to mention this also means boosting it too much breaks it in the other direction for raids and trials. What's happening is the meaning behind the numbers is being taken at face value and saying that just because it is sufficient in one scenario it's fine, which is what people have been doing since Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Guess we just have different definitions of the word "busy" then. I view it was pressing a lot of buttons in a short time.
GCD centric jobs dont feel busy to me. Since you're always going to be rolling GCDs no matter where you are in a rotation. And GNB feels like a GCD centric job to me now especially with the lionheart combo and double down.

I'll give you GNB is more strict. But strictness wasn't really what I was refering to. Simply that GNB isnt that doubleweave monster it used to be, and thus no longer feels busy to me.
But in terms of oGCDs that bit of GNB also is fairly flexible, press continuation after gnashing fang, press blasting zone and bow shock on CD.

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The definitions of "busy" means to be actively engaged or occupied.
We seems to have the same definition, but the difference is the window of time you pick, which is highly manipulative.
With this process you can prove many false statements.

DRK has a busy 120s, this is true. But outside of that, can you call DRK "busy"? Over the course of a whole encounter, can you say DRK is "busy"? I wish it was true.

If your point is to have DRK at the same level of DPS as other tank jobs, I'm all for it, I don't think tanks should have such a big gap.
But DRK is far from busy and I hope SQEX will update it to make its filler and 60s much more interesting. I simply don't want to sleep while waiting for the next 120s.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

-snip-

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You and I are talking about different things then, I'm not interested in design philosophy of the job, player act is really the only thing that makes me decide if it's good or bad, you seem focused on the theory aspect of it

At the risk of repeating myself, survivability is something I consider exceptional, you care more about all the possibilities and the theorycrafting which is why frequency doesnt matter to you, we have different PoVs for this

For the savage part, when it comes to simply clearing savage on PLD vs the other tanks, your analogy would be more correct if you compared running 1 mile in Adidas and running 1 mile in Nike's, which one would you choose?

I do understand much better where you're coming from now that you mentioned PF, and why you think damage types matter, but again this is PF. I do believe this is more of a placebo effect to convince oneself that we used the best combo and still wipe, it has the same energy as the double melee locking in PF or setting ilvl lock at crafted gear ilvl on day 1. Things are definitely different in a static setting

Player performance is the one that matters, you know that because you mentioned having to pick up slack for "less efficient players" but you will never be able to prove that in a specific PF switching from PLD to GNB will be the difference between a clear and a wipe because there are too many other factors such as other's people DPS

as DRK, you had to invuln but didn't need to inlvun? huh?? Also can you give me examples of dungeons where DRK cannot go at "WAR/PLD/GNB pace" cuz I feel like this is yet another misconception

My quote with AD was weird so you prolly misunderstood, AD is nowhere near being a powerful self heal at all, was mostly a tongue in cheek for people thinking DRK doesnt have any self heal, which is why I called WAR/GNB/PLD very good tanks and DRK a good tank

And finally, I think you'd be surprised, some DRK really dont know their mit well, I'm not talking about people in this thread but those I meet in DF sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I think DRK is bad right now because the MP nerfs are a lot more impactful than streamers who do not play the job let on. -2400 MP between bursts plus slightly less from syphon strike due to +1 Bloodspiller and Disesteem. If you think DRK feels bad right now this is why.

If you're playing optimally, you get 3 uses of TBN between bursts.
But Dark Side is now a ticking clock that demands more MP from you at specific intervals, so unless those use cases of TBN line up perfectly with the boss, there's a good chance you'll be caught without it.
But if you want the most optimal play you need TBN to break at a very, very specific point in the now, so you can bring the maximum of 5 edges into the burst window. Not to early to overcap, not to late to not be able to get back up to max MP. This was easier to manage in Endwalker due to higher mp values.

The end result I'm finding is that you want to use TBN as little as possible to make this easier to optimize, or memorize the fight down to when you can perfectly break TBN without issue. So in a lot of cases DRK can't really freely use its short mit to shield itself anymore, let alone allies.

Do I think the devs will fix this come 7.05? lol no they dont care.

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This is interesting, I will be doing just like what I did in Endwalker and test it to see how much worse it really got,because I was super disappointed by the doomposting I heard before I got DRK to 90 and realizing that its not actually bad

These TBN changes do seem rough though, though in the 2 instances Ive had to heal a DRK in DT so far, I didnt feel it to be so bad, maybe the 40% mit helps despite the MP nerf, ill report back when I get it to 100 myself and have a clearer opinion

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

You and I are talking about different things then, I'm not interested in design philosophy of the job, player act is really the only thing that makes me decide if it's good or bad, you seem focused on the theory aspect of it

At the risk of repeating myself, survivability is something I consider exceptional, you care more about all the possibilities and the theorycrafting which is why frequency doesnt matter to you, we have different PoVs for this

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There is no theorycrafting here, this is how game balance discussions are held in the workspace. People that say this random stuff and chuck everything up to "thinkspace" instead of practicality is why balance teams get a lot of heat from people that don't understand how game balance works and just how sensitive it is. It also most certainly looks like you're using "theorycrafting" as a cope because you can literally see the quantity of people that are displeased with DRK and its defensive abilities by just opening your eyes and accepting that these players are upset and that DRK is underperforming next to the other tanks. For the balance team, this should be the reddest of flags.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

For the savage part, when it comes to simply clearing savage on PLD vs the other tanks, your analogy would be more correct if you compared running 1 mile in Adidas and running 1 mile in Nike's, which one would you choose?

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Let me try again. You can have Italian Bread with Butter, or you can add Garlic and end up with Garlic Bread. Both are good, but Garlic Bread is... well, Garlic Bread.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

I do understand much better where you're coming from now that you mentioned PF, and why you think damage types matter, but again this is PF. I do believe this is more of a placebo effect to convince oneself that we used the best combo and still wipe, it has the same energy as the double melee locking in PF or setting ilvl lock at crafted gear ilvl on day 1. Things are definitely different in a static setting

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...What?

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

Player performance is the one that matters, you know that because you mentioned having to pick up slack for "less efficient players" but you will never be able to prove that in a specific PF switching from PLD to GNB will be the difference between a clear and a wipe because there are too many other factors such as other's people DPS

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Not sure I understand this either... But if I do understand, my thoughts are that my play, the tank in question played a lot and encountered both good and bad groups on all tanks at all levels and ended up having wildly different experiences on DRK than I did the others. I don't see why the other players performance would effect any of my performance.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

as DRK, you had to invuln but didn't need to inlvun? huh?? Also can you give me examples of dungeons where DRK cannot go at "WAR/PLD/GNB pace" cuz I feel like this is yet another misconception

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You're leaving out details, probably intentionally to make me look worse, just to belittle a valid point. I used Invuln on Dark Knight because it was the only way to prevent GCD heals being necessary but my LD never proc'd because TLD is so poorly designed that the healers didn't notice it and GCD healed me anyway preventing it from triggering. There, fixed it for you.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

My quote with AD was weird so you prolly misunderstood, AD is nowhere near being a powerful self heal at all, was mostly a tongue in cheek for people thinking DRK doesnt have any self heal,

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I've never seen anyone say DRK has 0 self healing so your point is actually agreeing with people??? The most common suggestion I have seen is make AD a 30s cooldown, a direct acknowledgement of the value of AD.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

which is why I called WAR/GNB/PLD very good tanks and DRK a good tank

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How many times do I have to say it... This is what the problem is

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

And finally, I think you'd be surprised, some DRK really dont know their mit well, I'm not talking about people in this thread but those I meet in DF sometimes.

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I would not be surprised. Years and years later, there are still people that don't know Arm's Length is a mitigation tool. I don't actually live under a rock and I do see other tanks in play.

If you still don't get it, you are willfully ignoring fact in order to support your own view of things, and if there is anything I know about any discussion it's that you cannot reason someone out of something they did not reason themselves into.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

There is no theorycrafting here, this is how game balance discussions are held in the workspace.

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You're the one that wants to drag this into a game balance discussion, my only point of view ever was always that DRK is not a bad tank, mitigation wise the other 3 are obviously superior and damage wise it seems to be 3rd place, might even get close to WAR when burst optimization will be set in stone just like in Endwalker

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Let me try again. You can have Italian Bread with Butter, or you can add Garlic and end up with Garlic Bread. Both are good, but Garlic Bread is... well, Garlic Bread.

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This analogy is already butter than the other one

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Not sure I understand this either... But if I do understand, my thoughts are that my play, the tank in question played a lot and encountered both good and bad groups on all tanks at all levels and ended up having wildly different experiences on DRK than I did the others. I don't see why the other players performance would effect any of my performance.

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If in savage, you have a pull on GNB where a DPS dies 3 times, and another pull on PLD where nobody dies, which one are you most likely to clear with?

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You're leaving out details, probably intentionally to make me look worse

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Nah I've been trying to have a fair discussion, you however were trying to slip in that you work in game balance earlier which I chose to ignore cuz that isnt relevant, I've also left out the whole LD is bad design or you being undergeared cuz those were offtopic and not even points I had raised

What I was trying to say here is that it shouldnt even get to the point where you have to be GCD healed or pop LD, if you're confident that the issue wasnt on your side and that you've properly mit'd then it might be on the healer side too, but whether you got healed and that Walking Dead didnt get triggered is a totally different matter.

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I've never seen anyone say DRK has 0 self healing so your point is actually agreeing with people???

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Fair enough!

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How many times do I have to say it... this is what the problem is

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Never said it wasn't, that's definitely not balanced. again was always about DRK not being bad, not that it didnt have worse mitigation than the other tanks

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If you still don't get it, you are willfully ignoring fact in order to support your own view of things

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You talk about ignoring facts while I'm here still just thinking that we're talking about different subjects altogether. it will be impossible to reason myself to DRK being bad in normal content until I run a dungeon, wall to wall a pull, use all my mitigation, the healer uses all of theirs, and I die or have to use LD, who knows, it might happen in DT I have yet to level it but healing it in Straybourough AND Tender Valley has to be a good benchmark

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

You're the one that wants to drag this into a game balance discussion, my only point of view ever was always that DRK is not a bad tank, mitigation wise the other 3 are obviously superior and damage wise it seems to be 3rd place, might even get close to WAR when burst optimization will be set in stone just like in Endwalker

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War has absolutely no business outdpssing any tank.
It has the best invuln, the best party mit, the best sustain, and additional minor advantages such as an extra knockback resist and mobility. Hell, why does it still have guaranteed direct crits? So that it will consistently outperform objectively worse tanks? I'm sorry, but Dark knight sucks. There is a direct upgrade waiting to be played, and the pickrates reflect this. With Warrior rocking the pickrate of Drk and Pld combined.
If you're going to judge how good a job is, you have to meassure it against the alternative options that are available. To which Drk just falls completely flat because it got powercrept by streamer endorsed favouritism.
It's genuinely hillarious that they decided to just give War a 40 potency buff on a 1 minute cooldown, that now nearly matches Dark knight's big 2 minute cooldown gcd in potency.

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

This is interesting, I will be doing just like what I did in Endwalker and test it to see how much worse it really got,because I was super disappointed by the doomposting I heard before I got DRK to 90 and realizing that its not actually bad

These TBN changes do seem rough though, though in the 2 instances Ive had to heal a DRK in DT so far, I didnt feel it to be so bad, maybe the 40% mit helps despite the MP nerf, ill report back when I get it to 100 myself and have a clearer opinion

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Yes, TBN has been massively hit by the changes.
Before DT you could easily stock 13.000 MP but now you're barely at risk of overcapping MP.
Which means, if you want to optimize DRK you'll do 1 TBN every 120s while in EW you could do 1 TBN every 60s.

This could be simply fixed if you could stack more than 1 dark art.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

War has absolutely no business outdpssing any tank.
It has the best invuln, the best party mit, the best sustain, and additional minor advantages such as an extra knockback resist and mobility. Hell, why does it still have guaranteed direct crits? So that it will consistently outperform objectively worse tanks? I'm sorry, but Dark knight sucks. There is a direct upgrade waiting to be played, and the pickrates reflect this. With Warrior rocking the pickrate of Drk and Pld combined.

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I don't think tank DPS should be balanced with their mitigation/survival. Those should be balanced independently.
If you think about DRK, most of the time criticism was dismissed because "Yeah but it does the most damage".

However, WAR garanteed crit are a lot, it reduces the RNG DPS gap between floor and ceiling by a lot. If all tanks did similar DPS, then WAR would automatically do the most in average.
Holmgang should still be changed as well, 5 minutes and give it a massive regen on top of it or something.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I don't think tank DPS should be balanced with their mitigation/survival. Those should be balanced independently.
If you think about DRK, most of the time criticism was dismissed because "Yeah but it does the most damage".

However, WAR garanteed crit are a lot, it reduces the RNG DPS gap between floor and ceiling by a lot. If all tanks did similar DPS, then WAR would automatically do the most in average.
Holmgang should still be changed as well, 5 minutes and give it a massive regen on top of it or something.

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Why not? Otherwise they all end up becoming the exact same.
Basically, if they buffed Drk's healing a shitload it would be fair, but it would also make all the tanks identical.
I think utility should 100% be weighed into a job's balance. And this is true for other jobs as well. Red mage notoriously being behind BLM because BLM has no utility.
Or Sam arbitrarily being at the top because it has no utility beyond Feint.
Why is it easy for people to understand the logic there, but not when it comes to tanks?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

If you think about DRK, most of the time criticism was dismissed because "Yeah but it does the most damage".

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This is one of the thing i hate the most, it was impossible to have a logical conversation about the state of tanks, especially DRK.

In a way i am happy DRK is not the tank with the biggest dps anymore (at least at the moment) because now it's impossible to hide the flaws.

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Originally Posted by Kaixern

This is one of the thing i hate the most, it was impossible to have a logical conversation about the state of tanks, especially DRK.

In a way i am happy DRK is not the tank with the biggest dps anymore (at least at the moment) because now it's impossible to hide the flaws.

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It was never impossible to hide the ''flaws''.
The flaws made it different. And it had different advantages. If you want it's defensive toolkit buffed why not just play literally any other tank?
It's the same with people crying about Drk's APM in EW when that was literally the entire selling point of the job.
I don't understand why people insist on playing a job that they do not like when there are jobs that meet their criteria?
Making everything the same is not the answer.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

It was never impossible to hide the ''flaws''.
The flaws made it different. And it had different advantages. If you want it's defensive toolkit buffed why not just play literally any other tank?
It's the same with people crying about Drk's APM in EW when that was literally the entire selling point of the job.
I don't understand why people insist on playing a job that they do not like when there are jobs that meet their criteria?
Making everything the same is not the answer.

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(Just to be sure, i wasn't putting stuff like dark mind being magical only or having high apm in the flaw category, for me this belonged more to the class identity of DRK)

Tanks can have different strengths and weaknesses that come up at different points in a fight.

DRK just doesn't really have a strength anymore, if you're lucky they'll have a big magical TB to kitchen sink and then you're the WAR bought from Wish .com for the rest of the fight.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Why is TBN DPS neutral?

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because they gave the only -hp skill GNB, and somehow super bolide on DRK is considered too hard for players to handle. so instead of gambling with HP, its HP shields. Its the job identity. (which of course should have just been to give DRK super bolide. alternatively, it could have been thrill, where u can delete the max HP with another CD, rather than a shield. but for some reason they saw classic FF WAR as a healer, so it had to go to WAR)

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Originally Posted by EponaTBHSMH

This is interesting, I will be doing just like what I did in Endwalker and test it to see how much worse it really got,because I was super disappointed by the doomposting I heard before I got DRK to 90 and realizing that its not actually bad

These TBN changes do seem rough though, though in the 2 instances Ive had to heal a DRK in DT so far, I didnt feel it to be so bad, maybe the 40% mit helps despite the MP nerf, ill report back when I get it to 100 myself and have a clearer opinion

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I don't think people have realized it yet because we don't have Savages, and in the Extremes you can skirt by on Shadowed Vigil/Oblation/Rampart alone.
But yes I do truly think unless SE does something (they wont) people are going to feel like DRK doesn't have a short mit anymore, at least if they're going for damage, and this is on the tank that's currently in 3rd place for damage.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Why not? Otherwise they all end up becoming the exact same.
Basically, if they buffed Drk's healing a shitload it would be fair, but it would also make all the tanks identical.
I think utility should 100% be weighed into a job's balance. And this is true for other jobs as well. Red mage notoriously being behind BLM because BLM has no utility.
Or Sam arbitrarily being at the top because it has no utility beyond Feint.
Why is it easy for people to understand the logic there, but not when it comes to tanks?

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Their gameplay would be different, their tools would be different. Only week 1 and ultimate actually cares about their DPS, outside it becomes less and less relevant.

Because Reaper has Arcane Crest doesn't mean it should be at the bottom of the DPS chart, Arcane crest would become less and less valuable with good healer while its DPS is taxed for a tool they can't take advantage of.
The same way, Viper would be at the top because they don't even have self utility but this would require higher attention from tanks and healer to keep their Viper alive, not from the Viper itself.
Or SMN and RDM get shafted because of they have ressurection but is useless if no one dies, yet the tax remains. And even if someone dies, that's most likely their own fault or healers. Yet they're taxed for it.

I think it's bad, their res should be a strength, not a tradeoff.

The raises should honestly apply a form of damage penalty only when used (which the loss of a GCD or quick cast, and the hefty MP cost if using too much very must is. You can end up not casting anything for a solid 10 seconds if you raise too many people)

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

War has absolutely no business outdpssing any tank.
It has the best invuln, the best party mit, the best sustain, and additional minor advantages such as an extra knockback resist and mobility. Hell, why does it still have guaranteed direct crits? So that it will consistently outperform objectively worse tanks? I'm sorry, but Dark knight sucks. There is a direct upgrade waiting to be played, and the pickrates reflect this. With Warrior rocking the pickrate of Drk and Pld combined.
If you're going to judge how good a job is, you have to meassure it against the alternative options that are available. To which Drk just falls completely flat because it got powercrept by streamer endorsed favouritism.
It's genuinely hillarious that they decided to just give War a 40 potency buff on a 1 minute cooldown, that now nearly matches Dark knight's big 2 minute cooldown gcd in potency.

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This post was poetry

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I don't think people have realized it yet because we don't have Savages, and in the Extremes you can skirt by on Shadowed Vigil/Oblation/Rampart alone.
But yes I do truly think unless SE does something (they wont) people are going to feel like DRK doesn't have a short mit anymore, at least if they're going for damage, and this is on the tank that's currently in 3rd place for damage.

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How would you feel about a removed MP cost on TBN, merge it with Oblation, put it on a 30s cooldown with 2 charges, and made it so Dark Arts instead empowered other mitigations or even gave availability to a small self heal? A little oGCD usable only while DA is available. It removes the job fantasy of using DA for damage, but it adds a layer of engagement to the defensive kit that other tanks lack right now.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

How would you feel about a removed MP cost on TBN, merge it with Oblation, put it on a 30s cooldown with 2 charges, and made it so Dark Arts instead empowered other mitigations or even gave availability to a small self heal? A little oGCD usable only while DA is available. It removes the job fantasy of using DA for damage, but it adds a layer of engagement to the defensive kit that other tanks lack right now.

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Mixed. It would be more powerful than it is now, but you're also basically removing the last job-specific mechanic Dark Knight even has.
I think DRK would need more to its MP side if TBN wasn't a factor anymore.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Mixed. It would be more powerful than it is now, but you're also basically removing the last job-specific mechanic Dark Knight even has.
I think DRK would need more to its MP side if TBN wasn't a factor anymore.

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True. How's about using TBN consumes Darkside time (like 10s? 5s?) but grants MP when you consume a Dark Arts? This would force an edge/flood sooner and thus likely outside the burst window, but it would have an interaction with your MP bar and your DPS mechanics. Probably not great, though. This is just me reaching for DRK to have some sort of actual interaction with Darkside.

They aren't going to make dark good. It was good in HW. It's been downhill since then

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

They aren't going to make dark good. It was good in HW. It's been downhill since then

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

I'm pretty convinced the DRK we have is the DRK we keep. Forever. Hoping for 7.0 improvements is still hopium.

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Yeah... been saying it for years, just this time around the devs say they want to focus on job identity for 8.0 so maybe we can wait 2 more years to see a change? Not sure.