Please fix healers problem without touching other roles

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Tank heals, and more specifically wars sustain, is too much and should be nerfed even if there wasn't a healer issue.

So while yes healers need to be fixed, I think tanks need to lose some of their self sustain. More mit yes, but not sustain.

And if you want to leave war as the berserking healing tank, it's mitigation needs to be nerfed, like it was back in 2.0 before the first rework.

It can't have both.

---

I wish someone could turn back the clock a bit and remind us all what Warrior was like before this 'overpowered and self-sustain' era of the Warrior, because i firmly remember a time when folk used to joke about how much they hated warrior because it was 'trash' and Paladin at the time was the king of tanks.

Anyone? I think that should be talked about because there was a reason why the dev team did what they did to the warrior job, and i feel like old warrior mains probably remember this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

I wish someone could turn back the clock a bit and remind us all what Warrior was like before this 'overpowered and self-sustain' era of the Warrior, because i firmly remember a time when folk used to joke about how much they hated warrior because it was 'trash' and Paladin at the time was the king of tanks.

Anyone? I think that should be talked about because there was a reason why the dev team did what they did to the warrior job, and i feel like old warrior mains probably remember this.

---

Can go look at the patch notes for 2.1, and look at "brutal swing" - marauder lol, and warrior.



Vengeance used to not have damage reduction at all. Brutal swing was just a 300% heal based on damage done (20% Damage reduction got added to brutal swing in 2.1, and 30% to vengeance).


So if anything, this patch is where tank homogenization started. Because WAR was the "self heal" tank, and they changed it to align with PLD, because raw mit was just better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

I wish someone could turn back the clock a bit and remind us all what Warrior was like before this 'overpowered and self-sustain' era of the Warrior, because i firmly remember a time when folk used to joke about how much they hated warrior because it was 'trash' and Paladin at the time was the king of tanks.

Anyone? I think that should be talked about because there was a reason why the dev team did what they did to the warrior job, and i feel like old warrior mains probably remember this.

---

Seems like they over-corrected... by a lot. Were warriors that bad during Endwalker they needed to double down on the healing? They should have two years of stats to back it up.

Is Warrior played way more than other tanks? You'd think if it's THAT broken, that it would be more popular than the other tanks by a large amount. Is it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Is Warrior played way more than other tanks? You'd think if it's THAT broken, that it would be more popular than the other tanks by a large amount. Is it?

---

On a certain site, for savage statistics, it shows WAR about 5k higher than the next highest, DRK, in terms of players (take this with a grain of salt) But yes. Its a significant amount higher. (almost 30%). This is for 6.4 and that tier.


For TOP, it changes from mostly DRK in 6.3, to mostly WAR in 6.5. Its something like a 80% increase over the other tanks in 6.5

Can you imagine if SCH mains were like this when they were forced a cop an IN PATCH LIVE NERF TO THEIR STRONGEST AND FLASHIEST SKILL.

“No no don’t nerf expedience what we actually need to do is give every other healer 10 second experience while we maintain 20 second expedience then make the encounters move so much that 10 second expedience is actually just the baseline so then our 20 second expedience is functionally 10 seconds but we don’t actually have to have it nerfed”

Like come on, at some point you need to accept your job is unbalanced and that nerfs are warranted

Retuning all content around bloodwhetting requires a change to every encounter above 52 and redoing of every healing skill in the game as well as a complete redo of SGE as a class

I'd really love to hear more opinion about how to improve healing in the game. y'all want war gets nerfed, I heard ya, I won't argue. but no need to make every thread about healing turn into 'nerf WAR' thread. so let's actually discuss about how healing & incoming damage can be improved to fix the curent broken state of the trinity, as that's the main point of the thread.
we can get WAR & PLD sustain gets nerfed to the ground but I'm telling you the trinity would still be broken anyway if thats the only thing they do, as the main issue is not fixed.
we can start from discussing the suggestions I mentioned on the top of the thread :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ianmaru

I'd really love to hear more opinion about how to improve healing in the game. y'all want war gets nerfed, I heard ya, I won't argue. but no need to make every thread about healing turn into 'nerf WAR' thread. so let's actually discuss about how healing & incoming damage can be improved to fix the curent broken state of the trinity, as that's the main point of the thread.
we can get WAR & PLD sustain gets nerfed to the ground but I'm telling you the trinity would still be broken anyway if thats the only thing they do, as the main issue is not fixed.

---

That’s the problem here he tanks self sustain is what’s breaking the trinity

The trinity is the in each role specialises in something and does that better than the other roles. Right now tanks are better healers than healers in all situations in single target and are perfectly acceptable replacement healers in casual content

You cannot fix the trinity without nerfing how far out of tune the tanks are because if you give healers something else to do they are just playing slightly garbage casters

A trinity can’t be fixed if one role is the best at two roles jobs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ianmaru

if they double or triple up the incoming damage amount & frequency, the tank heals can stay as it is now and can still reach the desired result simply by increasing incoming damage to the point the current tank heal is not enough to cover it.

---

That's functionally a nerf to tank sustain. When incoming damage increases and self healing stays the same, the result is a nerf.

You really can't balance content for AOE bloodwhetting, (its fine single target).
But in AOE, it gets so insane that the numbers honestly just sorta break. The amount of damage you'd need to contest bloodwhetting is so astronomically high that you'd be required to give DRK,GNB and PLD their own bloodwhettings, and beyond that the damage would be so high that you'd basically be oneshot as soon as bloodwhetting ends.

Like its SO overtuned for this level of content that its honestly really wasteful. Like you'll heal to max in less than half a gcd, and then the remaining 6s of the buff basically just function as an invuln as all the healing doesn't even have a place to go.

Single Target Bloodwhetting is around a 1200-1600 cure potency if you land your 4 hits in it.
If your add pack has 8 targets, thats around 13,000 cure potency from one button, every 25 seconds.
Even if you think thats a highball remember guaranteed crit heals exist...so its really more a lowball.

I think the problems extend well beyond tank sustain and are problems with the content itself, but I do truly think this isn't something that can be left alone if they every want dungeons to be engaging for non-tank players ever again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Right now tanks are better healers than healers in all situations

---

this is really a one-dimensional point of view and not even true. healer is the better healers, healers healing kit is superior than tank healing kit. we can even break it down to prove my point. the problem is the incoming damages are easily manageable by tank healing kit thus make healer more superior heal kit redundant.

Easy fix to all those healer woes.
Add unavoidable AoE damage in dungeons, even from trash mobs, make it high enough to not be sustainable without a healer. Dungeons just don't hurt enough the damage there is laughable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

You really can't balance content for AOE bloodwhetting, (its fine single target).
But in AOE, it gets so insane that the numbers honestly just sorta break. The amount of damage you'd need to contest bloodwhetting is so astronomically high that you'd be required to give DRK,GNB and PLD their own bloodwhettings, and beyond that the damage would be so high that you'd basically be oneshot as soon as bloodwhetting ends.

Like its SO overtuned for this level of content that its honestly really wasteful. Like you'll heal to max in less than half a gcd, and then the remaining 6s of the debuff basically just function as an invuln as all the healing doesn't even have a place to go.

Single Target Bloodwhetting is around a 1200-1600 cure potency if you land your 4 hits in it.
If your add pack has 8 targets, thats around 13,000 cure potency from one button, every 25 seconds.
Even if you think thats a highball remember guaranteed crit heals exist...so its really more a lowball.

I think the problems extend well beyond tank sustain and are problems with the content itself, but I do truly think this isn't something that can be left alone if they every want dungeons to be engaging for non-tank players ever again.

---

Ironically this would make dungeons completely uncleareable without a tank. And here I thought the people against healer changes dont want one single role be hard required.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ianmaru

this is really a one-dimensional point of view and not even true. healer is the better healers, healers healing kit is superior than tank healing kit. we can even break it down to prove my point. the problem is the incoming damages are easily manageable by tank healing kit thus make healer more superior heal kit redundant.

---

Read oizen’s post, WAR’s single target healing in cleave content exceeds all the healers by literal leaps and bounds, even in single target WAR and PLD’s short mitigations are stronger than near any single target heal the healer has that’s not benediction (Bw is literally 1600 healer potency of healing when you factor in the shield) and GNB’s/DRK’s are roughly on par with the strongest healer CD’s and they have longer CD’s than the tank equivalent

Healers have to spend resources for these heals and the resources are often shared ones for AOE heals that are a higher priority, tanks get them for free and they get mitigation on top of them. In a savage encounter the tank heals themselves about 70% more than the healer heals them by their single target heals.

The tanks are simply better single target healers than the healers who have restrictions on the availability of their single target heals

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saraide

That's functionally a nerf to tank sustain. When incoming damage increases and self healing stays the same, the result is a nerf.

---

it has the same desired result as tank nerf, yes. but by definition that's not a nerf. and most of the time thats the better approach to balancing. when things are unbalanced, bringing the weaker ones up toward the stronger one is better than bringing the stronger one down toward the weaker one.
and since as you said 'the result is a nerf' then everyone who wants WAR nerf would still be happy, and those who don't WAR nerf would also be happy. it's the better win-win solution.

This is actually fairly simple to resolve.

• Make tanks responsible for positioning the boss on a regular basis, and design mechanics around this. No more 'return to center, orient north, and lock into place before casting each mechanic.
• Increase the amount of tankbusters each fight, such that you're not alternating between invuln/kitchen sink. Some modern fights have fewer tankbusters across an entire fight than you would have had in a single phase of T9 or T13.
• Add in some frontal cleaves that consistently hit you for half health. This is where timing your short recast mitigation tools should come in. Couple these with crit autos to keep you on your toes.
• Rework tank sustain such that it is planned and context dependent (i.e. proportionate to damage recently received or on the difference between current HP and max HP) rather than on-demand and reactive.
• Make tank deaths have consequences outside of just swapping to the understudy.
• Limit on demand defensive resources for tanks and healers, and allow players to generate additional resources/casts through maintaining dps uptime rather than being gifted it on short recasts. Address defensive oGCD bloat.
• Make tanks more dependent on healers for survival.

At the end of the day, this comes down to providing value. Right now, tanks aren't providing value by tanking, simply because the game has removed tank gameplay over several expansions now. Instead, you play a melee dps with training wheels, with on demand burst heals and excessive mitigation to compensate for accumulating vuln stacks. This in turn devalues healer gameplay. The net result is that anyone who is remotely competent is going to swap off of supports on to DPS roles where the value lies. Which is frustrating, because support gameplay when executed correctly allows you to really be a team player.

These two issues are intrinsically linked. You need to fix the support experience as a whole, because tank and healer gameplay is tied to each other.

None of the requested changes to encounters in the thread will be done done because legacy encounters can't be changed.

Only healer job rework to balance healing/damage kits to match what they actually do is possible.

However jobs in FFXIV only get reworked when their usage stats are low, so if healers remain 1/4 so parties still form nothing whatsoever will be done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Read oizen’s post.... SNIP

---

again, a one-dimensional point of view. you only look at numbers of the 'result', not why it turns up that way.
I can list the data to prove you wrong but that requires too much effort.
I'll give you a question instead:
if all the incoming damage frequency are 3 times more often, both AA & raidwides, and the resource of healers are also tripled (check the 3rd solution I mentioned on the thread top to see an example of how it would work), and tank heal is not touched at all, do you think tank would still turn up to be the better healer?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ianmaru

again, a one-dimensional point of view. you only look at numbers of the 'result', not why it turns up that way.
I can list the data to prove you wrong but that requires too much effort.
I'll give you a question instead:
if all the incoming damage frequency are 3 times more often, both AA & raidwides, and the resource of healers are also tripled (check the 3rd solution I mentioned on the thread top to see an example of how it would work), and tank heal is not touched at all, do you think tank would still turn up to be the better healer?

---

You are asking me “if healers were stronger healers would you still say tanks are stronger healers”

Of course healers will be stronger if you triple healing output i just don’t understand why you’d rather bend the entire rest of the game including healer design, encounters and even DPS healing over just NERFING tank healing

Nerfs don’t hurt that much, I took a nerf in 6.1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Somnolence

None of the requested changes to encounters in the thread will be done done because legacy encounters can't be changed.

Only healer job rework to balance healing/damage kits to match what they actually do is possible.

However jobs in FFXIV only get reworked when their usage stats are low, so if healers remain 1/4 so parties still form nothing whatsoever will be done.

---

yea I'm fully aware that the fix can only be implemented for future updates, no fixing anything already rolled out. but that's better than nothing. Hope the #FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE would make them consider reworking healers now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You are asking me “if healers were stronger healers would you still say tanks are stronger healers”

Of course healers will be stronger if you triple healing output i just don’t understand why you’d rather bend the entire rest of the game including healer design, encounters and even DPS healing over just NERFING tank healing

Nerfs don’t hurt that much, I took a nerf in 6.1

---

yes that's always been the whole point. it's about making healer stronger so that tank no longer be the better healer. do you even read my thread top?
I too took a nerf a lot of times but I don't wish anyone else takes a nerf. and I'm not even a WAR & PLD main, so I'm not fighting for my own cause.
If anything your remark about how you got a nerf gives it the "I got nerfed so y'all gotta get one too, feel my pain" impression.

So are we just trying to avoid the term "nerf" because it's an evil word.

Your "solution" to the problem is an arms race, which ultimately solves no problems. Tanks were generally speaking put into their current position over their "anxiety" that their survival was in someone else's hands and that someone else could do something that they could not. You buff the healers to heal ~75% a shot, then you raise the damage to justify it, then the tanks' "anxiety" comes back and they beg and whine for more and the cycle repeats once more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ianmaru

yes that's always been the whole point. it's about making healer stronger so that tank no longer be the better healer. do you even read my thread top?
I too took a nerf a lot of times but I don't wish anyone else takes a nerf. and I'm not even a WAR & PLD main, so I'm not fighting for my own cause.
If anything your remark about how you got a nerf gives it the "I got nerfed so y'all gotta get one too, feel my pain" impression.

---

Because it’s completely ludicrous to change every other class to avoid changing the tanks when it can lead to 10 million other balance problems

Let’s say they overcorrect and suddenly tank healing is near useless again because afflatus solace is now healing for 4000 potency and the mobs are still chunking the tank and putting them in real danger. Tank healing is now next to useless. What do they do then? Buff tank healing again and start the cycle anew? Nerf the healer healing? Nerf the mobs?

What if it goes the other way and they don’t adequately buff the damage enough so the situation doesn’t change. What if they buff the mob damage too much and suddenly neither the healer nor the tank can keep people up, what if they don’t increase the mob damage enough and suddenly every healer heal is a benediction and the mobs are still ticking the tank. What if they mess up with the DPS healing level and suddenly the DPS heals are either completely useless button bloat or otherwise adequate replacement for the healer

You have to understand that your suggestion to “not nerf tanks buff everyone else” has so many more fail points compared to the alternative we are so much more likely to end up with a different messed up meta than what we have now and it may even be worse if they mess the balance up

And let’s say they hit the balance perfectly. Isn’t the whole reason the tanks want self sustain is because they don’t like relying on the healer? Aren’t you basically consigning them to going back to being reliant on the healer because with these new potencies only the healer is keeping people alive

Every issue with [Healer] can all be indirectly and directly traced back to this:
The damage output in this game is way to LOW to sustain
the insane heals and self-sustaine that exist in this game.

How to solve this:

Damage needs to happen way more frequent during BOSS fight(s).

We need Random and Unavoidable dmg in the game!

This will make it so that even experienced groups,
will take dmg, a big issue with ffxiv is that most dmg is avoidable-->becomes invalid!

Things like:
- (30-40s) AOE DoTs on all players ( this will force healer to use their AoE healing more often ).
- Direct DMG that hits a random player(s). ( forces more spot healing).
- Have % based DMG ( high ilvl/gear should not make the dmg invalid (in normal content)).
- Have bosses actually do damage to tanks outside just TBs - make auto hits hit harder


Self-healing from Tanks/DPS and OffGlobal Heals dosn't have to be nerfed/removed:
Because with higher dmg output, their "strength" will be grealty reduced,They are strong now because the dmg output is low!.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ianmaru

yes that's always been the whole point. it's about making healer stronger so that tank no longer be the better healer. do you even read my thread top?
I too took a nerf a lot of times but I don't wish anyone else takes a nerf. and I'm not even a WAR & PLD main, so I'm not fighting for my own cause.
If anything your remark about how you got a nerf gives it the "I got nerfed so y'all gotta get one too, feel my pain" impression.

---

I can understand where you're coming from, but you should be aware that SE doesn't want to increase difficulty that drastically, and you're also effectively asking for content to be significantly more difficult as both healer and tank have to play properly to handle outgoing damage as one cannot cover the vast amount of healing that a WAR can heal with bloodwhetting without nerfs, which then will indirectly have to raise PLD/GNB/DRK to be able to compete with that kind of healing.

In the event tanks are nerfed to not overtake a healer in such a drastic way, a bad healer but a good tank can make the bad healer's job much easier through mitigation, but a bad healer will probably be unable to DPS or heal very well. Likewise, a good healer can cover a bad tank. This is the current ARR/HW/SB and to some extent ShB design.

In the event tanks are adjusted without nerfs, healers are buffed to be far superior, and outgoing damage is increased for both a healer and a tank to feel engagement, having either a bad tank or a bad healer is tantamount to a wipe.
In the event tanks are adjusted without nerfs, healers are buffed to be far superior, but outgoing damage is increased so having either a bad healer or bad tank can clear it, we're back to the current standpoint where tank becomes a replacement for the healer role because they have enough healing - but it creates problems in other gameplay content (Current Endwalker).

You'd heavily create imbalances in solo to party content that was originally viable to all roles (like Deep Dungeon) as tank will be healing far too much or else DPS without buffed healing will directly die to adjusted mob damage. Not to mention, adjusting mob damage in every place will probably take more development resources than it is worth. Mobs in Bozja/Eureka will also be unbalanced in design. Too many failure points to redesign and consider.

There's no way to balance that realistically without alienating the playerbase.

I don't think it is the answer, as focusing on OGCD invalidate core identity of the healers even more (No regen/shield on OGCD).

With the current design, the opposite would probably be better : GCD heals/shields should be the main focus and OGCD should be nerfed while making them more available (ex:doubling gauges/halving recasts/more charges and thing like that).
Weaving OGCD more often for spot healing while still needing your big GCD heals for chained attacks or mistakes.
If power creep and/or you/your team getting better allow you to greed more GCD even better, as long as it's a fine line while content is not that old.

It also doesn't mean all OGCD should be nerfed, You should still have at least one or two (ST/AoE) powerful for big "oh s**t" moments ; just on long CD (2-3mn)

Anyway, while it would help break the monotony with more weaving, with the current fight design we're almost immediately in the "greed" phase with not much else to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Your "solution" to the problem is an arms race, which ultimately solves no problems. Tanks were generally speaking put into their current position over their "anxiety" that their survival was in someone else's hands and that someone else could do something that they could not. You buff the healers to heal ~75% a shot, then you raise the damage to justify it, then the tanks' "anxiety" comes back and they beg and whine for more and the cycle repeats once more.

---

Tanks don't want to worry about the healer abandoning them for DPS
Healers thus keep being told to DPS

Does anyone not see the problem here? If healers weren't spending time DPS'ing they would have time to heal the tank. And it the Tank wasn't spending time healing themselves, they would have more time to DPS themselves. If the tank and the healer are fighting for the 12.5% of the DPS output, it should be the tank actually doing that damage.

Unfortunately just continuously spamming heal because you're expected to, even when nobody is damaged is just poor job design. It worked better in ARR where "overheal" would just rip the enmity away entirely from the tank if they weren't in Tank stance, or push it to yellow if they were.

There is no way to justify a fight design that just constantly bleeds you 10% a tick because then the healer is left with no choice but to use only the GCD Medica or Cure III for every cast. If you ever need to cast rez without swift cast 8 seconds are going to go by, and everyone will die. If Raise was instead a oGCD with a 10 second recast time, it could be cast immediately without swiftcast, but then wouldn't be "ready" again for 10 seconds, thus allowing for a fight to be designed for a constant bleed.

If a fight is designed well:
The Tank should only be holding enmity and any "loss of tank stance" should lose the enmity to whoever is doing more damage to it, or to the healer if they've overhealed a target. The tank should never have the opportunity to self-heal.
The Healer should have zero opportunity to cast DPS (Eg Stone) only DoT's. They should be casting Heals, HoT's or DoT's 90% of the time. If they have time to cast an AOE then the tank is too strong. That is how it worked in ARR. That is why so many people were "pure healer" types in ARR, because it was too expensive to switch to the Cleric stance, especially when you get that one tank that would pull everything to the boss room.
The DPS should never have the opportunity to self-heal.

Outside of a "the boss has stopped attacking, quick kill the nails" type of pause in the damage output from the boss, the healer and tank should not be "just DPS'ing"

You can fix "self heals" being over used by increasing the oGCD time or reducing the potency. Unfortunately the only way to pull that off is by making the self heal cast unique for every job just to adjust the oGCD time to match, and then making sure the oGCD time is quadrupled or in dungeons.

When a fight is not designed well:
Tanks die too quickly due to too much incoming damage that overwhelms the healer, and no amount of mitigation can save a fight
Healers are constantly pressing the GCD heals (Medica/Medica2) because the oGCD's were used/wasted on a previous phase, until they run out of MP
DPS constantly take dirt naps.

or
When a fight is under-designed (or not ilevel synced low enough):
A tank can solo the fight/remainder of the fight without the healer or DPS
A healer can use nothing but oGCD heals
DPS can self-heal faster than the damage output

Sure, a fight "should be easier" if you've geared and leveled up, but this isn't "OTHER RPG NAME HERE(TM)", but as we often see, older ARR content went from "actually requiring minimum DPS/HPS from wearing appropriate gear" to "killing things so fast that half the mechanics aren't even seen." This forum doesn't exist in a 2 year bubble, you can literately go back to posts made during each patch version and see people complain about things being too hard for the gear that was available.

The game has not felt like that in a long time, where you actually had to buy gear to do the content, rather it feels like the game just enforces a minimum ilevel that you can get by just doing the previous dungeon several times to get a full set that you then immediately throw away and repeat. It doesn't feel hard when you enter with minimum ilevel except when everyone is minimum ilevel.

Which is why asking for "more bleed mechanics" as a solution here is just asking for content to be harder when it's only "not hard enough" through gear creep. How many players are playing the content with a full pentameld set versus minimum ilevel tomes gear? The difference between the two is like the difference between being able to survive 1 and 2 vulnerability stacks.

Perhaps that could be part of the solution for the tank. Missing mitigation's adds vulnerability stacks to the tank or the party. Let the healer able to cleanse vulnerability stacks, or at least pop the most recent vulnerability stack off (eg taking 3 down to 2, 2 down to 1, but not to zero.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zeastria

Self-healing from Tanks/DPS and OffGlobal Heals dosn't have to be nerfed/removed:
Because with higher dmg output, their "strength" will be grealty reduced,They are strong now because the dmg output is low!.

---

So how do you imagine a DRK or GNB +healer will work against multiple enemies, if their damage is increased enough to challenge a WAR even without a healer?

And do you agree heals from healers should never be overshadowed? If so, how do you imagine to balance that against multiple enemies? The only way to do that I see if both give healers a huge buff to ogcd healing and an obscene increase to incoming damage. And then you start running into problems that both damage and healing are so high players will have very little time to respond, which increases overall difficulty of the game hugely. They tried to avoid that with the numbers nerf a few years ago, all damage and healing was nerfed while health wasn't.

So in the end it's either nerf tanks (WAR/PLD) selfheals. Or make a LOT of other changes that have other consequences that need to be worked out, only to end up in a similar situation as just lowering some numbers on selfheals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ianmaru

yes that's always been the whole point. it's about making healer stronger so that tank no longer be the better healer. do you even read my thread top?
I too took a nerf a lot of times but I don't wish anyone else takes a nerf. and I'm not even a WAR & PLD main, so I'm not fighting for my own cause.
If anything your remark about how you got a nerf gives it the "I got nerfed so y'all gotta get one too, feel my pain" impression.

---

If everyone were to get buffed but one then that's a nerf. Might as well nerf the one job outright. Let's call a spade a spade. It's such an egotistical thing. Everyone should have fun, regardless of what they play. That's the whole reason we have balancing strangle job creativity.

Right now we have unbalanced tanks *and* homogenised healers. Worst of both worlds, if you ask me.

Warrior having so much self healing is wrong, in my opinion. But it's the party healing that makes no sense with the class fantasy. If you want to lean into the whole "berserker too angry to die", give them a passive that reduces incoming damage as their HP goes lower, to a point. The party healing tank was supposed to be PLD, but, just like WAR took the spot of the "damage tanks", WAR also stole being the best party support because it just has to be the best at everything or the players (and a certain obnoxious streamer) throw a hissy fit.

Changing Raw Intution to be percentage-based healing instead of a flat potency would solve the WAR issue, IMO. Make it basically a WAR-exclusive Bloodbath until Bloodwhetting, and then a Bloodbath with a shield. You could probably leave Nascent and Equilibrium as they are with this change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aiqa

So how do you imagine a DRK or GNB +healer will work against multiple enemies, if their damage is increased enough to challenge a WAR even without a healer?

And do you agree heals from healers should never be overshadowed? If so, how do you imagine to balance that against multiple enemies? The only way to do that I see if both give healers a huge buff to ogcd healing and an obscene increase to incoming damage. And then you start running into problems that both damage and healing are so high players will have very little time to respond, which increases overall difficulty of the game hugely. They tried to avoid that with the numbers nerf a few years ago, all damage and healing was nerfed while health wasn't.

So in the end it's either nerf tanks (WAR/PLD) selfheals. Or make a LOT of other changes that have other consequences that need to be worked out, only to end up in a similar situation as just lowering some numbers on selfheals.

---

Sometimes I think Yoshi P has coddled people so hard and so long that they don't understand how out of touch their solutions sound for the problem that is at hand. Over correcting the entire game to counter a handful of overtuned sustain is wild, whether it has a bunch if untinended effects or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slayer25c

It lil late for them to fix the healer issue only way to neft tanks

---

they can easily fix incoming damage numbers, along with as you said nerf warriors. Fix healer design next expansion.

Warrior should be nerfed. Its healing capabilities make absolutely no sense from a gameplay or even lore perspective (why does angry ungabunga literally undo the wounds of other people by being angry?).

I mean, the self-healing is egregious but at least it makes sense from the perspective of ‘so angry it doesn’t die’, but there is no logical reason for that to become ‘so angry its own allies can’t die ’.

Then there’s obvious gameplay aspect that incoming damage is absolutely minuscule yet Warrior is designed as if it’s going to be taking insane amounts of constantly sustained damage. Like the kind of content Warrior is designed for does not exist in FFXIV, from what I understand even ultimates don’t have such massively sustained damage output that you would literally need healers healing with every gcd and Warriors making use of every party and self-heal. I mean that’s not even going into the fact cooldowns and resources exist. Damage output in FFXIV will always be burst-oriented. I don’t think we’ll ever see sustained damage outside of the occasional Harrowing Hell style mechanic, which is essentially just a protracted burst since there’s nothing going on after it

So, who exactly are all of Warriors party/self-healing abilities for, when you also consider stuff like 40% damage mitigation abilities in Dawntrail

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ianmaru

again, a one-dimensional point of view. you only look at numbers of the 'result', not why it turns up that way.
I can list the data to prove you wrong but that requires too much effort.

---

I don't think you're going to win people over by saying "you're wrong but I'm too lazy to explain why"
It ends up that way because its not per weaponskill, its per target. I even opened by saying I think Bloodwhetting is fine in single target.

IDK it just sounds like you like the powertrip fantasy WAR gives in low end content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaytex

The only tank in EW which needs a dramatic nerf is WAR. It's basically immortal in every piece of content 56+ whereas the other three have varying degrees of self-sustain depending on the content they do.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaytex

I will say tanks should have some levels of self-sustain to them. A bad healer shouldn't constitute an immediate wipe to the party on any pull, tanks should have some control over their own life but it's gone too far in their favour.

---

The crux of the problem is all there in the wording, really. "Self-SUSTAIN". Sustain means generally "to break even". You're sustaining: not going up or down. PLD, DRK, and GNB more-or-less hit the mark, where they have enough tools to prevent their own death, but not necessarily completely heal themselves (PLD can a bit but at cost to DPS, so it balances out).

Then you have WAR. WAR is basically immortal at the moment. They not only have enough abilities to completely heal themselves, but they can even heal the rest of the party at no cost. THAT'S where the problem lies. They're going beyond the scope of self-SUSTAIN. As another comment put it, tank healing should really come down to "I can look after myself for a bit while you finish that hard rez, healer". It should give them enough control over their own health so they're not panicking if the healer looks away for even a sec, but not so much that they can tell healers to basically f**k off. But that's exactly what WAR is doing at the moment because it's too over-powered in healing abilities.

If you're so self-sufficient that you've literally put a whole ROLE out of a job, you're too over-powered, plain and simple. And I'm sorry WARs are taking the idea of a nerf hard, but I play SCH, and if my capstone ability could take a nerf simply because we were sprinting for too long, then you can take a nerf to your ridiculous self-sustain because you're legit making a whole set of jobs optional. Deal with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Do I play tanks? Yes. I was a pld main until stormblood, and since I've played drk, though not primarily, but I did clear p4s with it while current.

And didn't the war god Xeno throw a fit because war wasn't top dps during one of the ultimates? It has the best or 2nd best invuln, depending on the fight.

---

This keeps getting tossed around when it's disingenuous. He didn't complain Warrior wasn't the top DPS. He "threw a fit" because Warrior's damage (and Paladin's) was so much lower than Dark Knight, the latter allowed for two damage downs on DPS players and a death, albeit near the end. For reference sake, in the initial weeks of P8S, Dark Knight was pulling upwards of 10-11% above Warrior and Paladin while having a better mitigation suite and the fight itself completely invalidating Holmgang. Bluntly stated, Dark Knight wasn't just slightly better, it thoroughly stomped WAR/PLD into the ground to the point bringing them over it was borderline griefing your team. Even after the buff, the discrepancy remained which saw Dark Knight have more clears of TOP than all three other tanks combined.

Dark Knight wasn't just good throughout most of Endwalker (Living Dead, notwithstanding). It was oppressively good. Hence the near constant buffs they've been doing to Warrior and Paladin. Funny enough, in spite of all the out crying, Dark Knight remains the higher DPS tank. In fact, it's only really Paladin that still falls behind at the Savage level. Shake It Off is slightly overtuned but it's only really dungeons where Warrior's sustain is silly. In Savage, it balances out with Dark Knight having better mitigation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This keeps getting tossed around when it's disingenuous. He didn't complain Warrior wasn't the top DPS. He "threw a fit" because Warrior's damage (and Paladin's) was so much lower than Dark Knight, the latter allowed for two damage downs on DPS players and a death, albeit near the end. For reference sake, in the initial weeks of P8S, Dark Knight was pulling upwards of 10-11% above Warrior and Paladin while having a better mitigation suite and the fight itself completely invalidating Holmgang. Bluntly stated, Dark Knight wasn't just slightly better, it thoroughly stomped WAR/PLD into the ground to the point bringing them over it was borderline griefing your team. Even after the buff, the discrepancy remained which saw Dark Knight have more clears of TOP than all three other tanks combined.

Dark Knight wasn't just good throughout most of Endwalker (Living Dead, notwithstanding). It was oppressively good. Hence the near constant buffs they've been doing to Warrior and Paladin. Funny enough, in spite of all the out crying, Dark Knight remains the higher DPS tank. In fact, it's only really Paladin that still falls behind at the Savage level. Shake It Off is slightly overtuned but it's only really dungeons where Warrior's sustain is silly. In Savage, it balances out with Dark Knight having better mitigation.

---

That may be, but from that and one of his blow ups in 3.x, the impression Xeno himself gives off is that anything detrimental to war being the perfect job is that he will throw a tantrum. Sorry, but that's just the result from the way he's acted over the years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This keeps getting tossed around when it's disingenuous. He didn't complain Warrior wasn't the top DPS. He "threw a fit" because Warrior's damage (and Paladin's) was so much lower than Dark Knight, the latter allowed for two damage downs on DPS players and a death, albeit near the end. For reference sake, in the initial weeks of P8S, Dark Knight was pulling upwards of 10-11% above Warrior and Paladin while having a better mitigation suite and the fight itself completely invalidating Holmgang. Bluntly stated, Dark Knight wasn't just slightly better, it thoroughly stomped WAR/PLD into the ground to the point bringing them over it was borderline griefing your team. Even after the buff, the discrepancy remained which saw Dark Knight have more clears of TOP than all three other tanks combined.

Dark Knight wasn't just good throughout most of Endwalker (Living Dead, notwithstanding). It was oppressively good. Hence the near constant buffs they've been doing to Warrior and Paladin. Funny enough, in spite of all the out crying, Dark Knight remains the higher DPS tank. In fact, it's only really Paladin that still falls behind at the Savage level. Shake It Off is slightly overtuned but it's only really dungeons where Warrior's sustain is silly. In Savage, it balances out with Dark Knight having better mitigation.

---

Sounds like a perfect example of how constantly buffing leads to more issues then nerfing the actual problem.