2hr Abilites (Yes Please!)? or (No Thanks!)?

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

2hrs were what actually defined certain jobs especially playing into certain tactics, e.g:

PLD's invincible
COR's wildcard
BRD's Soulvoice
DRK's Blood Weapon
SMN's Astral Flow (especially Odin/Alexander.)

and so on.

You can't make class uniqueness in a FF type of MMO without some kind trump card ability that can't be spammed. Even the "useless" ones had a use and were only seen as useless because people didn't understand how to put it into play, e.g PUP's overdrive.

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Funny part? quite a few people I see posting here against 2hr abilities are also the ones that continue complaining that classes aren't defined enough. How droll... :D

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

LOL at anyone attempting to say 2hr abilities are useless. Some are too disgustingly powerful in a way.

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Most were useless... Please post some vids of all the 2hrs being used in a grand tactic(and not just for the hell of it)... I'm not up to going down the entire list stating why most were useless for something on a 2hr cd. Most 2hrs didn't give you an ace up your sleeve because it made little difference in a bind. If anything it made a cool way to make a last stand while your party ran to safety.

Maybe it was just the server(s) you were on because for me and the 2 I played on most of the 2hrs made little difference.
Most also weren't used to defeat some NM or any other serious threat through some pre-planning tactic.

MOST(not all) were and still are useless besides brief fun every 2hrs.

edit: I'm not against a "2hr" like ability but I am against an ability thats on a 2hr cd. 1hr at most should be the highest any ability goes. It should also be worth the wait.

IMO 2hr. abilities should be fun and somewhat meaningful, but not necessarily a definite make-or-break thing for all boss fights.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Funny part? quite a few people I see posting here against 2hr abilities are also the ones that continue complaining that classes aren't defined enough. How droll... :D

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Even if all the current classes had one ability tied to them that was on a ridiculous 2hour cooldown the clases would still not seem unique. I don't see what the point of a 2hour ability is. Most of the time it went unused and the person who linked that tvtrope (which I had seen before :D) nailed it on the head. Yes to class uniqueness...but class uniqueness doesn't need ridiculous cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Sojiro

Even if all the current classes had one ability tied to them that was on a ridiculous 2hour cooldown the clases would still not seem unique.

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You seem to think, for some weird reason, that 2 hour abilities would be the *only* thing added to make classes more unique. Titular and characterizing abilities to be used in an emergency situation would definitely *contribute* to class uniqueness and characterization. The fact that they aren't a be all do all solution by themselves doesn't change that.

Also, ridiculous cooldowns? They are emergency abilities. There's nothing ridiculous in two hours. You're not really supposed to have an emergency more often than that.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

Most were useless... Please post some vids of all the 2hrs being used in a grand tactic(and not just for the hell of it)... I'm not up to going down the entire list stating why most were useless for something on a 2hr cd. Most 2hrs didn't give you an ace up your sleeve because it made little difference in a bind. If anything it made a cool way to make a last stand while your party ran to safety.

Maybe it was just the server(s) you were on because for me and the 2 I played on most of the 2hrs made little difference.
Most also weren't used to defeat some NM or any other serious threat through some pre-planning tactic.

MOST(not all) were and still are useless besides brief fun every 2hrs.

edit: I'm not against a "2hr" like ability but I am against an ability thats on a 2hr cd. 1hr at most should be the highest any ability goes. It should also be worth the wait.

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It's more of a what was decent instead of what was cheap.

About 70% of the Maat fights revolved around 2hr abilities. About 50% of the CoP relied on 2hr one point or another. Most Zigart fights were also first relied on 2hrs. Most BC's were walked in expecting to have a 2hr in your sleeves.

It's the opposite of what wasn't cheap.

BRD- considered cheap
PLD -always an ace in the hole
RDM - always an ace in a hole
COR - next to godly if used correctly
SMN- almost a key tactic in soloing summons or generally BCs definitely cheap
SAM - The most youtubed
BLM - Come on it was good before now now they have mana wall...
SCH - manafront and chainspelling...certainly cheap
DNC - Basically like SAM. massive damage

WHM - After they fixed the enmity full HP for entire party all around decent and something you want in a tough fight.
BLU - A little like ES a little like Mightly strike. It wasn't useless but then BLUs were already powerful. Useful for low acc skillls like 1000needle and useful for unlocking limits like drain kiss. Still cheap.

The odd man outs at cheap but not so much BC:
Ninja : death warping, but also good for baiting, or saving PTs
Thf : To Run away is so like them
DRG : It's life as a drg, the 2h timer needs to be there.
RNG : decent at lower level, though it's ben tweaked a few times.
Warrior : yea the lower end of 2hrs

2hr is a good timer for them. It ensures no one ever attempts to rely on it, only make a risky bet on it. That's the way cheat abilities should be.

10minutes: Coffee break
1/2hr means a round
1hr : Possible, but still kinda short
2hr : Most people consider it a session. So it's the right limit instead of 24hrs.

2hr was very strategic. They wanted to make it a "one day" or some super long time like FF14's levequests but then ran into a problem of casual vs hardcore. No one expects to wait 2hrs, but they also have it their when they go "adventuring".

They probably considered a session of "adventuring" about 2-3hrs on average. Which still holds relatively true even today.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

*snip*

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Finally someone that knows what they're talking about! Perfectly summed this whole debacle up.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You seem to think, for some weird reason, that 2 hour abilities would be the *only* thing added to make classes more unique. Titular and characterizing abilities to be used in an emergency situation would definitely *contribute* to class uniqueness and characterization. The fact that they aren't a be all do all solution by themselves doesn't change that.

Also, ridiculous cooldowns? They are emergency abilities. There's nothing ridiculous in two hours. You're not really supposed to have an emergency more often than that.

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Funny part? quite a few people I see posting here against 2hr abilities are also the ones that continue complaining that classes aren't defined enough. How droll...

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To me that second quoted part makes it seem that unless they have a 2hr ability the classes aren't unique, and we're so droll for thinking otherwise. Once again all for class uniqueness, don't need 2 hour cooldowns to achieve that. Emergency "oh shit" buttons can be put on half hour to an hour timers as well. Imo anything longer than 30 minutes is too long.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

That's good, since no 2 hour ability has ever been an automatic win button. Ain't that great? :D

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I think in order to justify a 2 hour cooldown, the ability itself would have to be very amazing. This in turn leads to tactics being skewered for difficult boss fights due to people beginning to rely on 2 Hour Abilities to win the fights.

Basically everyone will just end up saving their 2 hours for endgame boss fights.

While 2 Hour abilities are a nice concept and I appreciate that they lend themselves favourably to job uniqueness, the fact that they detrimentally effect tactics in the long run makes them something I'd rather not see.

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Originally Posted by Sojiro

To me that second quoted part makes it seem that unless they have a 2hr ability the classes aren't unique, and we're so droll for thinking otherwise. Once again all for class uniqueness, don't need 2 hour cooldowns to achieve that. Emergency "oh shit" buttons can be put on half hour to an hour timers as well. Imo anything longer than 30 minutes is too long.

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Again, Characterizing 2 hours ability would sure *contribute* to class uniqueness, so whining about the lack of uniqueness and then antagonizing something that contributes to that is quite droll.

The high cooldown actually contributes to class uniqueness as well. Why? For balancing reasons, the higher the cooldown, the more powerful and cool the abilities can be. The more powerful, the more characterizing potential they have.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Anyway, now that you've stopped bitching, I hope we can have a discussion. I think in order to justify a 2 hour cooldown, the ability itself would have to be very amazing. This in turn leads to tactics being skewered for difficult boss fights due to people beginning to rely on 2 Hour Abilities to win the fights.

Basically everyone will just end up saving their 2 hours for endgame boss fights.

While 2 Hour abilities are a nice concept and I appreciate that they lend themselves favourably to job uniqueness, the fact that they detrimentally effect tactics in the long run makes them something I'd rather not see.

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Amazing != gamewinning. There was no 2 hour ability in FFXI that was "gamewinning"mwhile there were quite a few that were definitely amazing and cool. The only problem is that not all of them were.

Also, the fact that the abilities have such a long cooldown actually *contributes* to tactics, since the simple choice on when and how to use them is part of the tactical aspect of a fight. I've seen so many people in FFXI wasting their 2 hours regularly at the wrong time, that it's quite easy to appreciate how tactical their use can be.

Also "for endgame bosses" is quite generic. The fight against an endgame boss doesn't last half a minute, if they're challenging enough, there are plenty critical moments in which one or multiple 2 hour abilities may be useful. Ergo, chosing when to actually use them and when to save them and just try and get by with ordinary abilities is in itself a tactical choice.

A 2 hours is nothing else than a smartbomb. Smartbombs have always been, in gaming, a quite tactical tool.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

It's more of a what was decent instead of what was cheap.

About 70% of the Maat fights revolved around 2hr abilities. About 50% of the CoP relied on 2hr one point or another. Most Zigart fights were also first relied on 2hrs. Most BC's were walked in expecting to have a 2hr in your sleeves.

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Once again I guess it was just different servers with different tactics. Most fights didn't rely heavily on a 2hr except from a very small list of jobs. Others may have been used just for a bit extra but still wasn't part of the main battle plan. I'll just agree to disagree with you.

edit: My stand is still if we had a "2hr" it needs to be worth the wait. Most In XI were rarely needed or factored into a main battle plan.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Again, Characterizing 2 hours ability would sure *contribute* to class uniqueness, so whining about the lack of uniqueness and then antagonizing something that contributes to that is quite droll.

The high cooldown actually contributes to class uniqueness as well. Why? For balancing reasons, the higher the cooldown, the more powerful and cool the abilities can be. The more powerful, the more characterizing potential they have.

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Why stop there then? Since we're stating the amount of time before you can use the ability again adds more "uniqueness to the class" lets make them ever more powerful and be used every 6 hours....12 hours....a day. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

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Originally Posted by Sojiro

Why stop there then? Since we're stating the amount of time before you can use the ability again adds more "uniqueness to the class" lets make them ever more powerful and be used every 6 hours....12 hours....a day. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

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I never said I would be against an higher cooldown. Obviously SE thought 2 hours was a nice balance with the power of those abilities, and I agree.

It's a simple concept. The more powerful the more characterizing, the more powerful, the more it needs to be situational. An high cooldown is the perfect way to make a skill situational.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

I never said I would be against an higher cooldown. Obviously SE thought 2 hours was a nice balance with the power of those abilities, and I agree.

It's a simple concept. The more powerful the more characterizing, the more powerful, the more it needs to be situational. An high cooldown is the perfect way to make a skill situational.

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A big problem is that they then have to design with 2 hour abilities in mind and you can either let them dominate the fight or gate people from doing content based if they're on cooldown or not.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

No. 2hr abilities(most) were for the most part useless. All were extremely underpowered for an ability that is on a 2hr cooldown. To actually have an ability thats on a 2hr cooldown and be worth it most would then say "Its too overpowered!"


edit: They also lasted about 20 seconds? 30 at most for some jobs. It was a horrible way to implement an ability overall. In the end they just were used for brief fun every 2hrs.

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Hmm i think Astral Flow lasted 3 minutes and most others lasted 1 minute go back and play 11

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Originally Posted by Nephera

A big problem is that they then have to design with 2 hour abilities in mind and you can either let them dominate the fight or gate people from doing content based if they're on cooldown or not.

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Finally, someone said it ^ ^

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Originally Posted by Nephera

A big problem is that they then have to design with 2 hour abilities in mind and you can either let them dominate the fight or gate people from doing content based if they're on cooldown or not.

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But at the same time it's a perfect way to mix the casual, semi casual, and hardcore.

A 2h cooldown made it for the impossible, possible. Like a get out of RAGE medicine.

A player who logs in and gets into a bad situation, or go fighting a nasty BCNM will not feel threaten to be playing. Where a hardcore who plays the whole day can't use it every content he/she is burning through.

It's not totally perfect, but the 2hr did work pretty well, in bridging people who goes "see you tomorrow" and those that go the distance.

Later in the game, you could always pay for a COR 2hr to reset your 2hr, if you desperately needed it...

But in any event, Developers who write quests, missions, and boss battles can magically not have to tweak their monsters to counter those 2hr abilities.

People who had it going in were either well prepared or in luck. People who didn't have it had to take on the extra challenge, or try later (thus prolonging the need for new content).

It was a very sly developer's trick.

A heck of a lot more elegant then surplus wouldn't you say?

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Originally Posted by Akumu

edit: My stand is still if we had a "2hr" it needs to be worth the wait. Most In XI were rarely needed or factored into a main battle plan.

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The main battle plan is...to win. Rarely factored in the main battle plan is pure BS. whatever helped you win, was always factored in. Always.

That's like saying, I'm drunk up the rear, but i'll be ok, let's go in. It doesn't matter if your strategy does or doesn't need someone to be at 100%, winning and losing is the whole point.

I have never seen a party walk into a challenging BC where they're not fingering their 2hr ability. I rather have an invincible if someone DCs, the healer is lagging, the DD went "oops I missed that SATA" or even if nothing is wrong, I rather have that buffer of assurance: I'm going to win.

2hrs are always wanted. That's the point, it's your ace up the sleeve. Winning or loosing, I rather be winning.

It's like the old Fenrir prime strategies. No matter what people came with, the risk involved with his Howling moon was always risky. Everyone always fingered their 2hrs.
Most general strategies for his fight turned into

1: Preparation, if howling moon was too nasty, invincible+ benediction
2: point of no return: If howling moon killed the tank or key members, bumrush. Manafonts, chainspell stuns, the works
3: Prevention: soul voice dark carol, chain spell stuns, etc.

there were always sound strategies like pin point stun, running cancel, kite cancel, etc. But It was always good to have those 2hrs ready.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

People who had it going in were either well prepared or in luck. People who didn't have it had to take on the extra challenge, or try later (thus prolonging the need for new content).

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It mostly ended up being try later, XI players were notorious for excluding people from groups for not being 100%.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

It was a very sly developer's trick.

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Yes it is, XI used a lot of those little tricks to make the game take a very very long time to play. We're not really at the point where we want to be slowing people down to experience all the wonders of punching yet more goats though.

and the other problem with developers tricks is eventually people will realize you're doing them and they don't take very kindly to your continued use of them.

Which is why I imagined they lessened the experience curve and took out deleveling/experience loss.


edit: or the tricks just make people hate the game (See: castlevania 2)

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

A heck of a lot more elegant then surplus wouldn't you say?

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Yes, surplus could have been easily achieved by doing the OTHER trick of "rested" xp without upsetting nearly as many people.

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Originally Posted by Xeno

Being invincible for 30 seconds wasn't useful? Doing 5 minutes worth of attacks in 30 seconds wasn't useful? Completely healing your entire party wasn't useful?

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Ya, man! I'd really like to see something cool for Puglists. I'm all for a 2hour ability with things like in the above post, but I'd be more interested if it was a 30 minute cooldown and not 2 hours. 1 hour at the most, 30 minutes preferred.

Abilities akin to what 2 hour abilities did? Yes, please!

Having them on a 2 hour cooldown? NO THANKS!

As others have said, 30 minutes would be fine... hell, even 1 hour would be acceptable. But not 2 hours.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Abilities akin to what 2 hour abilities did? Yes, please!

Having them on a 2 hour cooldown? NO THANKS!

As others have said, 30 minutes would be fine... hell, even 1 hour would be acceptable. But not 2 hours.

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I believe 2hrs is fine. As some have said, the game needs to be more challenging, and super abilities shouldn't be counted on, only reserved.

The option to "reset it" should be in somewhere though. Pay a price, or maybe a special location, etc. As always there's a middle ground.

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Originally Posted by Shosasosa

Hmm i think Astral Flow lasted 3 minutes and most others lasted 1 minute go back and play 11

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*sigh* your purpose? What's the purpose of me going back to XI to find out about the durations? They were either...

Instant
30secs
45secs
1min
3mins(brd and smn)

However, you failed to figure out my main point as to why I would be against a "2hr" ability. MOST WERE NOT WORTH BEING ON A 2HR CD.

Now anybody else can feel free to throw debates or whatever at my posts. I merely wrote my opinion on the matter based off my own experiences in XI.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

*sigh* your purpose? What's the purpose of me going back to XI to find out about the durations? They were either...

Instant
30secs
45secs
1min
3mins(brd and smn)

However, you failed to figure out my main point as to why I would be against a "2hr" ability. MOST WERE NOT WORTH BEING ON A 2HR CD.

Now anybody else can feel free to throw debates or whatever at my posts. I merely wrote my opinion on the matter based off my own experiences in XI.

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would you rather they be win on a stick buttons instead? For most jobs they were about as powerful within reason, given how effectively players have used them.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

would you rather they be win on a stick buttons instead? For most jobs they were about as powerful within reason, given how effectively players have used them.

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No I would rather the 2hrs be useful in a tight situation. Most gave little help in a bind. While a few almost always came in handy.

edit: I'm not talking about an insta win here either. a few could truly be called an ace up ones sleeve. While most were very situational regardless of your bind.

PLD, BLM, SAM, RDM(if something needed stunning), SMN, MNK(if he/she hits). These are jobs that had an ace up their sleeve. Did it guarantee a win? No. However they had a trick to try and turn things around regardless if it worked in the parties favor or not.

Rarely did those other jobs make an impact like the above 2hrs and more so than anything were just used as minor support. Usually with a statement like "If he shits on us use your ace while the others just 2hr if you have it."

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

I believe 2hrs is fine. As some have said, the game needs to be more challenging, and super abilities shouldn't be counted on, only reserved.

The option to "reset it" should be in somewhere though. Pay a price, or maybe a special location, etc. As always there's a middle ground.

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It will be counted on in some situations though. If we have powerful abilities at our disposal, then those will be factored into strategies. In which case the cooldown just becomes annoying.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

No I would rather the 2hrs be useful in a tight situation. Most gave little help in a bind. While a few almost always came in handy.

edit: I'm not talking about an insta win here either. a few could truly be called an ace up ones sleeve. While most were very situational regardless of your bind.

PLD, BLM, SAM, RDM(if something needed stunning), SMN, MNK(if he/she hits). These are jobs that had an ace up their sleeve. Did it guarantee a win? No. However they had a trick to try and turn things around regardless if it worked in the parties favor or not.

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It really depends on the scaling. Trying to scale 1-50, then 1-75, then 1-90 is tough, and sometimes some shine at certain levels and certain events more then others.

I wouldn't underestimate, COR (as with everything it was luck based) is a big ace in party. WHM's benediction wasn't always respected, but always a panic button trick. Ranger EES scaled badly but is pretty darn decent for a while, not sure why square left it. DRK's blood weapon, wasn't all that great...until the unspeakable kreken tactic showed its head. BLU's 2hrs had their moments. And BST lived on their 2hrs. It was godly.

Sure there's a couple of ruts, but SE did a decent job designing their 2hrs that it survived all these years. Even worthless EES has their place, and even something mundane as Mightly strike could be augmented to be fantastic (Critical strikes did not miss)

A lot of the later abyssa content used otherwise "meh" 2hrs as a launchpad for zerg tactics.

The things SE designed in FF11, are a overwhelmingly more brain power then we're seeing in FF14.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

I believe 2hrs is fine. As some have said, the game needs to be more challenging, and super abilities shouldn't be counted on, only reserved.

The option to "reset it" should be in somewhere though. Pay a price, or maybe a special location, etc. As always there's a middle ground.

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I agree, there should be a middle ground. Would you be opposed to 1 hour?

Though I could see the benefit of having to pay to get it restored. The game lacks a real money sink at the moment (besides repairs), so that could help.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

I agree, there should be a middle ground. Would you be opposed to 1 hour?

Though I could see the benefit of having to pay to get it restored. The game lacks a real money sink at the moment (besides repairs), so that could help.

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As I mentioned, I believe the original design of the 2hr was based around the consensus that a normal playing "session" is around 2-3hrs. It's a major physical and mental block against rely on otherwise cheat abilities.

It's like passing out a get out of jail free card in the game. You shouldn't get a second one. We could watered down the abilities in design, but that defeats the purpose of the "ace up the sleeve" ideal.

I rather have a reset point then people counting down the hour. Though if SE does revolve around 1hr sessions (behest for instance being expanded) then it's always a game of challenge vs fun.

Though it's true that with the current state of FF14, a toothless rabbit could conquer the world.

Yes please

I wouldn't mind 2 hour abilities. I just really hope they add bigger flashier animation and more movement from avatars then all the crappy unspectacular animation we have now for any skill. A good example for decent "looking" skill is Arrow Helix.

++ for flashier animations

no thx to 2 hour from ffxi

Greetings everyone! We have heard about the possibility of a 2 hour ability straight from the development team! Without further ado here's what Akihiko Matsui, the FINAL FANTASY XIV Battle lead, has to say!

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As of now, we are holding an overall review on the battle system, including the reviewing actions for each class. This may sound like a self-applause but as one of the creators of FINAL FANTASY XI, we feel that a lot of 2 hour abilities were very useful from both a tactical and job characteristic perspectives. Thus we are considering about implementing similar kinds of actions in each class. However with the action recast, we are looking to see if 2 hours are an appropriate amount of time or not, based on the average time spent on upcoming new content such as dungeons. This is because the image we have for strong actions such as these is to allow their use only once during the challenge.

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Nice, Gildrein! :D

This makes me happy!

I don't think they should add two hour abilities. I do however think they should add 30 min class specific ability. I like the idea of a game changing ability that defines your class. They would just have to be very careful on how they implement these. A lot of testing would have to be done to make sure that they are all balanced and useful.

Edit - Nvm, just read Gildrein's post and that sounds good to me xD

Sweet. I like it.

Oh my god... WTF is happening to FFXIV... WTF

would be useless addition imo and Ak said nothing correctly or forgot major cons of 1/2 of what they said.

rdm 2hr is only good if you have mana.
blu 2hr is only good with certain spell set ups.
ninja 2hr was useless (as death in a fight was pointless)
dnc was useless unless you were healing.
blm was useless as casting was slow and even if you spammed you still would gey aggro (dead blm is a useless blm)
pld is useless if you don;t have hate or near dead to begin with.
whm got aggro no matter what
sam got aggro no matter what
cor is to random
brd was pointless
smn was too over powered and was a complete lie based on description.
war was useless as unless you had epic acc you miss every swing just about.
mnk same thing w/o acc you miss alot
thf rarely get aggro in a fight and even still theuir 2hr barely last long enough to survive anything
puppetmaster was pointless unless your puppet was out with decent attachments
drg was pointless if no dragon was out.
sch was useless all it did was what the strag did

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

would be useless addition imo and Ak said nothing correctly or forgot major cons of 1/2 of what they said.

rdm 2hr is only good if you have mana.
blu 2hr is only good with certain spell set ups.
ninja 2hr was useless (as death in a fight was pointless)
dnc was useless unless you were healing.
blm was useless as casting was slow and even if you spammed you still would gey aggro (dead blm is a useless blm)
pld is useless if you don;t have hate or near dead to begin with.
whm got aggro no matter what
sam got aggro no matter what
cor is to random
brd was pointless
smn was too over powered and was a complete lie based on description.
war was useless as unless you had epic acc you miss every swing just about.
mnk same thing w/o acc you miss alot
thf rarely get aggro in a fight and even still theuir 2hr barely last long enough to survive anything
puppetmaster was pointless unless your puppet was out with decent attachments
drg was pointless if no dragon was out.
sch was useless all it did was what the strag did

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Your post are useless and you're still here.

Anyway. Thank goodness for this bit of news. Anything to add even the smallest element of strategy in this game would be more than welcome.

thays not every job, but you really need to look @ the pros and cons of every jobs 2hr.
oh and drk was pointless you either missed or not a big return
there too many parameters when it came to 2hrs. I played every job in ffxi and varring levels and did a good portion of end game stuff . I rarely if ever saw ppl rely on 2hrs. Only rdm for stun, pld for invis, and whm to prevent death as well as dnc. But even still most of them were not very powerfull or too powerfull.

The ones that were too good were also the most wanted. And everything else took a back seat. This is one thing I never wanted to see again and that is "jobs of the week/year" I don't want to be forced to play a certain way or with certain jobs, for reason of being "needed". I could barely do anything wuth my mnk or dncer cuz ppl said those were good enough for stuff I wanted to do. Same for getting told how to play rdm. :/