Truthfully, this is a really toxic mentality to hold. The reality is that this is an MMO, not a single player RPG. You are going to play with other players. Some of them will be more skilled than you, others will be less skilled than you. There is nothing short of cosmic intervention you can do to change that fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPete
As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink. There is absolutely value in approachability, but it’s about balance.
Bushnell’s Law: The best video games are easy to learn and difficult to master. “Easy to learn” is half of that equation, but so is difficult to master.
in an effort to control weaker players from suffering you the mild inconvenience of making you redo a fight in a video game, you are punishing the players of higher skill. Quite frankly, that to me is selfishness. ‘I makes me upset when a noob makes me wipe, so the healers should be as simplified as possible so I don’t have to wipe as much.’
If you don’t like that the result of an encounter is based on the performance of your team and not just you, I suggest a single player RPG.
I really don’t know anymore….
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10-22-2023, 10:26 PMty_taurus
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10-22-2023, 11:23 PMRaikai
I've noticed this as well. Trying my hand at AST and healing again... The fight goes fine, but I'm constantly having to throw out gcd AoE heals because it feels like the co-healer is not pulling their weight and I'm too scared of just 'waiting' and people not making for next mechanic. One example is the 1st doom mechanic on Zeromus EX: Most of the time I rely - just - on Earthly star to cover half of the damage and wait my co-healer to cover the other half, they don't make it.
Maybe is just bad luck with the Party Finder... or maybe is that the 'good healer' numbers are diminished? -
10-23-2023, 04:33 AMPercibelTheren
You're not the only one experiencing this. I've seen this in Thordan Unreal. I LOVE the fight, but it hits hard (I get to heal for once holy heck) and there have been times I've almost run out of mana between rezing and having to GCD heal because my co-healer just doesn't help. I don't parse but I'm pretty sure I've done upwards of 70% of the healing in some groups. I'm used to solo healing Savage fights, but most of those don't put out this level of damage. In this Unreal, I have had wipes happen because I just couldn't keep both tanks alive through busters and also heal the group through raidwides in the add phase alone.
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10-23-2023, 07:49 AMGrimGaleIt might also be a case of a snake biting its own tail. Your Co-healer sees you overly ready to throw GCD heals and thinks it's not worth adding to it. Its easier to communicate than to wait for your co-healer to adapt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
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10-23-2023, 10:22 AMRenathrasStraight up, I've been making this argument for close to 2 years now. "4 Healers Model" you can find all over this subforum, with everyone beating on me every time I mention it, but it's that very concept. We have enough healers to make 2 complex and 2 not, or even 3/1. We don't have to change everything. One of my hopes for SGE (before it went live, obviously) was that it would play like RDM (or like SMN now does), as kind of a DPS Job but where your damage spells translated to healing. A WoW Discipline Priest. Not even for me, since I don't like that, but to make happy the people who would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zolvolt
I was pretty disappointed when they didn't do that, even though I personally like SGE okay, because I thought it was a missed design space/opportunity.
People complain when I say it, but the 4 Healers Model really is the best idea: Make the Healers not all have the same exact (or close enough to make no difference) damage and (frankly) healing kits. Then players can gravitate to the one they like best.
Not exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Support is generally something that offers utility aside from DPS. RDM is a support because of Vercure, Verraise, and Magick Barrier as these are all things above the baseline. Even if you ignore the latter of those, Vercure and Verraise would make it a support-DPS. It is, in fact, and has been since SB, the Job that people who outright say they want a Support role enjoy playing the most since it's closest to that. BRD used to be that way before ShB, back when it could do things like some healing, cleansing, and the songs were more situational and responsive to situations.
Support CAN be buffing, but it can also be debuffing, healing (on a non-healing role class), raising, etc.
FFXIV, ALMOST every class has a "buffs party damage", so that isn't really support since it's basically baseline, and Feint/Addle are also baseline (as is Tactician/etc of the Ranged role, since they all have one and they're all identical).
.
As for the how: It's that or homogenized morass. WoW figured it out 15-20 years ago. FFXIV figured it out in ARR. I know you like to go on about how super late in the expansion some people figured SCH/SCH could be a gain, but pretty much no one did that or cared to because the difference wasn't great enough (or the demand there) to make it worth doing.
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As for the last: The only time I've seen it is PF Extremes. I don't think I've seen a WHM that cast literally nothing but Glare other than that. It wasn't "the role was so boring the person fell asleep". It was a willful decision since they started out the fight/pulls that way. -
10-23-2023, 12:58 PMTroxbarkBecause this fight requires a lot of THICK N BURSTY heals, which some regen healers are either unwilling to do or underestimate how much damage there will actually be.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPete
On top of that sch basically brings nothing to the table compared to sge, you have no oh shit buttons and you have no reliable way to make up for regen healers drooling on themselves. Poor scholars, may you get the buffs and adjusts you damn well deserve. -
10-23-2023, 04:54 PMSebazyUh, that's perilously close to being hyperbole sir :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
A couple of quick sources:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...eborn/68415483 (Note posts #2 and #4)
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...om_an_endgame/
Pps, remember that I was actually there camping in Wineport, actually doing prog and chatting away with pretty much every other raid team on the EU's busiest raid server at the time (Remember people actually had to run their team to the entrance so you could actually see what comps were being run etc). Perhaps if you were there you might have realised that no, double SCH wasn't a thing super late in the expansion. It was actually a thing super early on, primarily pre 2.1. Here's why:
When multiple characters are playing the same class/job in a party, the gauge for level 2 and level 3 limit breaks will now fill more slowly than before. - Official 2.1 patch notes
I'm not trying to suggest it was the mainstream pick for Coil or such, but I absolutely saw a not insignificant number of teams running double SCH and it was certainly a thing that Solitude was aware of even if we did choose not to run it. Clearly between that, groups stacking BRDs (Something we did do) and Wars getting benched (Something we didn't do), it was enough of a thing that SE took action against it.
*Edit* Just to clarify why double SCH was a thing for Turn 5 in particular:
During prog, A WHM would need to preferably roll Regen, then most importantly land a Stoneskin and immediately time a Cure II to land between Death Sentence hitting and the infirmity debuff taking effect. The window was something like half a second or so. This was something that was drilled into us in Solitude and being able to do it consistently for pretty much every death sentence was why we were happy sticking with WHM/SCH.
If the team had a WHM that couldn't get that timing down consistently, the easy solution was just to run double SCH. Rouse+WD as soon as DS starts casting, only one of the SCHs wants to time Adlo, the other can pre apply it for the initial hit and then just lustrate as needed, with at least 6 on tap if not more it massively reduced the threat that Death Sentence posed especially later on in the fight.
Were they just never paying attention from the get go? It's not like every fight opens with the exact same raidwide AoE or anything.Quote:
As for the last: The only time I've seen it is PF Extremes. I don't think I've seen a WHM that cast literally nothing but Glare other than that. It wasn't "the role was so boring the person fell asleep". It was a willful decision since they started out the fight/pulls that way.
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10-23-2023, 07:20 PMSweetPeteWell as much as I adore you across these forums. I see you post and respond allot and most times I agree with you but this time I do not. Let me explain myself more clearly. You’re right this is an mmo. Yes some players are more skilled than some. I understand all of that and I agree with you on that portion. Now where I disagree is where you say my mindset is toxic. I’m not a rude or an abrasive person who just outright calls out bad healers immediately and tell them to get good. I know people like this and I think it’s not how you conduct yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Let’s take the new extreme for instance. We go in. I’m on sch/sge and I have a whm/ast as co healer. Or it could be the other way around but let’s use example A. Now the doom effect happens I do my thing and my co-healer doesn’t help much and we wipe to doom effect. I say nothing. Accidents happen let’s go again. We die again to the same mechanic. The party starts to question the heals maybe even someone will call out lack of heals. We settle it and go again. Die yet again. Okay. I make a small suggestion. Hey, cure 3 will work wonders for this part. Or hey, plenary plus cure 3 or summon lily bell and that can help. That’s how I usually do it. Then I get a nasty response like “I know what I’m doing, I’m doing my part and worry about you. Or they just stay silent.
Now does that sound toxic or abrasive to you? I’m not rude to people. Not nasty to people. Sometimes people might need a little encouragement or a little push and that’s okay. However, I don’t join farm parties to wipe constantly to the same mechanic. Definitely not a doom mechanic when all we need to do is heal up to max. So if that’s having a toxic mindset then wow. Maybe my post came off as angry and bitter. It was just frustration. Your response would hold allot more weight if I was expecting this from a practice to clear party. That’s a different lane. I’m talking about farm parties. You know what a farm party is right? Sure you do. It’s when 8 people have cleared the fight a number of times and are confident in their skill and ability to keep clearing the fight.
I take friendly advice all the time from people and I like to think I give good advice too and sometimes people accept it and sometimes not and that’s okay. I know I will encounter some healers who won’t take any tips or anything and that’s fine too. All my post was trying to say is don’t disable your team. GCD healing I know allot of healers don’t like to use them but hey casting 1-2 here and there to help is not a horrible thing. So again if you see this as toxic behaviour then fine. People just need to grow a pair and not be so sensitive. This is an mmo. Will play with people from all over the world and like I said if we can sit here and hold tanks and dps accountable then we need to hold healers accountable too. No coddling. It is what it is.
I said what I said. And I’m not changing on it. -
10-23-2023, 07:58 PMAravellI agree with this part. I personally have seen a few instances where people are tip-toeing around asking the healer to heal more even though it's actually needed. Like when we wiped to a small pull in a dungeon and the PLD apologises for not using Clemency. For this extreme, I've also had a party with 2 WHMs and we wipe to the stack beam because neither WHM wanted to do more than pop a couple Afflatus Raptures.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPete
Honestly, if one good thing came out of old Cleric Stance in the ARR/HW era, it was that healers back then knew how to gauge incoming damage quite well. -
10-24-2023, 02:02 AMForsakenRoe
As I've mentioned somewhere else (idk where now), I think the reason for this is because we got so many healing options over the years, that the 'idealized run', where we use zero damage-losing heals and can fully 100% damage uptime, went from an 'ideal' to a 'reality'. When you CAN heal a fight with zero GCDs wasted, that one first GCD that you 'waste' is a literal infinity% increase of 'inefficiency'. Back when we had, for example, the best possible run be 'well we got it down to 11 GCDs', the thought of 'we had 13 GCDs this time' is a lot more palatable
It's pretty funny though, that the healing required has apparently gone up a little bit, and it's causing absolute terror for PFs. Abyssos showed us what would happen, and as they say, 'those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it' -
10-24-2023, 04:43 AMRenathrasNo. It's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Look guys, this is the THIRD person trying a "gotcha" here. And every one has been wrong in doing so. So just stop.
And the fact is, it's not even that you care. You just want to call me a hypocrite to diminish what I'm saying, you don't give an actual damn about hyperbole being bad (if you did, you'd join me in calling people not named Ren out for it, which you do not), nor have any of you correctly identified its use on my part. It's pure vindictiveness, not anything else, and destructive to actual conversation. If you really feel hyperbole is bad, call everyone out for it, not just Ren. If you don't think it's bad, then don't call it out. Otherwise you're holding a double standard. "But so are you, Ren!", except I'm not, because as noted, what I've used isn't hyperbole. :eyeroll
When I talk about people attacking me, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. "Let's try to catch Ren breaking his hyperbole rule!" "Will that prove him wrong?" "Well, no, but we can call him names like hypocrite and pretend like everything he says can be ignored now!" "But...weren't we doing that anyway?" "Yes, but it will surely really annoy him!"
.
Anyway, so you have two posts from a gamefaqs and a Reddit thread with net 0 upvotes (meaning likely negative votes) and the comments all talking about how WHM/SCH is the superior comp:
"While scholar may be "better" for most of the end game content, it requires people who know the class well enough to do the correct action at the right time. One mistake that isn't remedied or caught by the other healer will often result in a wipe."
"The whole idea of one being burst/aoe and one being shield/single target is why the synergy is so great in groups with one of each. There's no reason to nerf or buff anything, they work so well together."
"OP completely forgets about WHM traits: the thread."
"Yeah, this is a great point. Traited Stoneskin and Protect make a huge difference in raid damage mitigation.
When I play a SCH next to a WHM I always feel like such a scrub sitting there picking my nose waiting for my buffs, but seriously, why bother even casting when the WHM cranks out stronger everythings?"
"It's really not about which is necessarily better, it's about working together to make the fights easier on everyone."
"For me, SCH/WHM combo is the way to go. WHM increases healing from the 3% MND buff they bring, while SCH buffs PIE for the group. Having 2 scholars isn't ideal due to adloquium not stacking."
"Try turn 4 with double WHM with both WHM keeping regen up 100% on both tanks.
Just as effective as double SCH or WHM+SCH, if not more so.
Poor regen uptime seems to be the main cause for people thinking WHM is lacking in coil."
"I disagree with just about everything you say.
You use a lot of phrases like "very difficult without proper cooldown management" to make it seem like White Mages are inferior to Scholar; what you don't realize is proper cooldown management is a part of the White Mage's playstyle. That would be like me saying "Scholars need to know how to use their Aetherflow stacks efficiently" and listing that as a negative of the class. It just doesn't make sense.
Let's talk real endgame for a WHM, as the game stands now:
Ifrit HM: Solo-healed, minimal effort required.
Garuda HM: Solo-healed, minimal effort required.
Titan HM: Solo-healed. AoE healing is not difficult, as stomps don't interrupt Medica/Medica2's cast.
Caduceus: Not difficult for healers. Stoneskin mitigates big hits while Regen takes care of other party members.
ADS: Not difficult for healers. Medica II takes care of the room-wide AoE. Swiftcast available for the few times you actually have to cast on the move (even though you only move a few steps every minute).
Turn 4: Not difficult for healers. Not terribly mana-heavy for a White Mage if he knows when to use Shroud (can get three in during the fight's duration); no Ballad required. Stoneskin makes healing MT through double-dreadnaught phase easy, while Regen helps ease the burden on the offtank.
Twintania: Medica II makes conflagration phase a cakewalk. Stoneskin mitigates a huge chunk of Death Sentence, making it easily possible for a WHM to solo-heal a tank back up to full even with the debuff on. Lustrate does make the fight easier, though.
Of the fights you listed, I think a Scholar is a clear-cut "better class" in only ONE of them -- Twintania.
I fully agree that Scholars are the better class for Twintania, and that a huge part of a group's success relies upon the Scholar's skill. Lustrate is a godsend for after Death Sentence, and the rest of the tools a Scholar has at their disposal really does make that fight easier.
Other than that, though, endgame healing really isn't that hard at the moment. Any endgame WHM worth their salt will know when to use their cooldowns and how to conserve mana.
As far as I'm concerned, the only real "fix" I would like to see for White Mages would be a decrease in cast time for Stoneskin. If I can be really greedy, Stoneskin would get a mana reduction as well.
With my gear (full BiS i90, determination-based), Stoneskin's cast is longer than Death Sentence's; I have to keep a separate timer marked at 30s so I can pre-cast Stoneskin on the tank before Twintania begins casting Death Sentence. Stoneskin's longer cast time and higher mana cost relegate it to a support skill, while I think it would be more fun (and more useful) as a spell to use in regular rotation. Adloquium splits the difference nicely with a small heal and small shield; it'd be neat if WHMs get the option of Big Heal or Big Shield to compensate.
That's it, though. I don't think it's nearly as imbalanced as you say it is. Twintania's the only fight where healing class really makes a big difference."
.
...whether you agree with the people or not, the majority seem to not agree with the "SCH/SCH is superior" argument. Per the thread you, yourself, linked.
You can prop up your ARR raid bonifieds all you like, it seems that your position was not one held by people at the time by and large, regardless of the anecdote of how many people you talked to hanging around Wineport.
Though I suppose we'd need old fflogs data (which requires a subscription, so I can't pull it up) to see what people were doing at the time...except...it didn't exist at the time. So...there's no real way to prove your point either way. I suspect the general use case was WHM/SCH since it seemed logical to the way the game was designed, and most people kind of ran with it. -
10-24-2023, 05:25 AMForsakenRoe
Isn't all of that from the POV of 'play it safe to get a clear', rather than our current mindset of 'sod everything, maximise DPS at all costs (including wiping if necessary)'? So if Sebazy's point was to the latter, and all of that quoted is to the former, then you're arguing different 'this is best' states because they're both 'best', just in different criteria
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10-24-2023, 05:40 AMSweetPeteQuote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
Exactly. Why was the Paladin apologizing? That’s crazy to me. Paladin shouldn’t have to use clemency in a dungeon no less. Unless say the healer died and they are close to finishing off the boss and the paladin is keeping themselves and the other dps alive. -
10-24-2023, 06:22 AMty_taurusIt's not about some sort of "gotcha!" moment. Imagine having an office job where your boss dictates that no one is allowed to have snacks at their desk and has frequently and publicly yelled at staff who bring snacks to their desk. Yet when you go into their office, you see they're always snacking at their desk. That would piss you off, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Well, you have regularly gone off on people for using hyperbole, tearing into them and accusing them of bad faith because of their use of hyperbole. Yet you have, by definition, been using hyperbole in recent discussion. "Pretty much no one did that" when you don't actually have data you're referencing is a very light form of hyperbole. Describing anything that isn't literally an airplane as "Stratospheric" is an extremely heavy form of hyperbole. If you really want to use some type of metaphor to describe your perspective... we're talking about skill "ceilings" as in how high the ceiling is of a building. Describing the collective stance you oppose that includes things like suggesting White Mage get 2-3 new attack spells as 30,000 feet in the air is an extreme hyperbole respective to that concept of a ceiling, because no ceiling is 30,000 feet tall, not even the damn Burj Khalifa. But maybe you would communicate your stance more fairly if you were to say something like this instead:
"Right now, every healer is a ground floor home, and I think we need some of the healers to have more floors, but all of you want every healer to be at least 2 stories tall."
Listen, I'm not saying you can't use hyperbole. Hyperbole isn't a bad thing. But people want you to be consistent. If you are going to chastise others for using hyperbole, then be consistent and don't' use it yourself. Or if you want to use it, then go ahead, but don't get on other peoples' cases when they use it too. It's all about being fair here. -
10-24-2023, 06:27 AMSebazyYes. it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
That's 2 threads I found whilst I was getting ready to go to work. And more importantly, that's 2 threads more than you've brought to the party.
So on one hand we have one person we have a hardcore healer main who was at the bleeding edge of progression right from beta. Was an active member of the EU FC chasing world prog rankings and one that made many of the most popular guides used amongst the raid scene back in the day as well as going on to make one of the most advanced tools of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
On the other hand we have some random who was thumbing himself in Toto Rak at the time. Brings little to nothing of value to the table outside of their 'opinion' but somehow this opinion holds more truth and value to the discussion than anything I could bring to the table. Yep, this is the one. The truth right here.
Also. Did you completely miss the part where I specifically stated that I was clarifying that this was in relation to T5?
As for your other comments, all I can say is lol. Casting Stoneskin on Caduceus? Like mid pull? Are you actually for real? WHM solo healing a tank back up to full easily with Stoneskin whilst infirmity is up? What? Medica IIing all the bad away? Do you actually remember how expensive and ballad dependant WHM was back then? Were we playing the same game here?
The Binds That Tie I
13/06/2015
Oh right.
I forgot.
You were still thumbing yourself in Toto Rak back when it was actually challenging.
Again, stop sitting there screaming 'It's not me it's everyone else!' for a second and read what I'm typing.Quote:
I suspect the general use case was WHM/SCH since it seemed logical to the way the game was designed, and most people kind of ran with it.
I'M NOT TRYING TO SUGGEST THAT DOUBLE SCH WAS THE NORM. I'M SAYING THAT IT WAS A KNOWN STRAT AND DID SEE A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF USE.
Trying to discredit me by some people disagreeing on reddit is doubly amusing, want me to link the thread where I got shadow banned off the reddit for suggesting that Eos was a DPS gain over Selene because of how misleading the haste numbers were? Needless to say, I had 0 upvotes as well. Didn't age well that one did it? :rolleyes:
Also it's kind of funny to see you completely skip over the part where you were woefully wrong about thinking it was a late expansion thing lol. Ren is never wrong yo. 1T1H2D is still the fastest for dungeons!!1!
I look forward to your canned response of 'are you feeling ok? Do you need a cuddle?' That's your usual response at this stage isn't it?
Remember, it's not you, it's everyone else! -
10-24-2023, 06:42 AMConnorIt’s been ages and I still only played casually, but I remember doing Coils very early on in their lifespan too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I even remember doing the Allagan Rot mechanic and silence duty as a Bard! Idk if I was any good but I was there lol.
But yeah I can attest to the very strange party comps that ended up doing really well. I mean, that’s where the X4 BRD comp came from that was so wild the devs are literally still terrified of Bard now lol. I do vaguely remember something about SCH/SCH being really good, especially if both were leveraging the mitigation to get maximum uptime (like rotating enhanced Eye for an Eye / Virus).
Interestingly though I wonder if the reason people enjoyed ARR’s style as opposed to the current one is because they essentially the inverse of each other. ARR was more weighted towards complexity in jobs than mechanical complexity, whereas Endwalker is the exact opposite with more mechanical complexity and none/minimal amounts for the jobs themselves. I think both have their good and bad aspects so surely the answer it somewhere in-between ‘all mechanical complexity, little/no job complexity’ or vice-versa, and not in these extremes they keep jumping too -
10-24-2023, 07:14 AMSebazyBRD stacking really was a powerful move for sure. My team ended up running 3 at times, it made a huge difference especially against ADS where keeping those melee up was tough work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
That's a solid point yeah. It certainly had a lot more scope for inventive play and honestly compared to something like early WoW, I'd argue that FFXIV's wombo combo setups were less 'cancerous' to the experience (To this day, I'm glad I wasn't on the receiving end of my Invuln Mail/Green Whelp antics in vanilla WoW PvP).Quote:
Interestingly though I wonder if the reason people enjoyed ARR’s style as opposed to the current one is because they essentially the inverse of each other. ARR was more weighted towards complexity in jobs than mechanical complexity, whereas Endwalker is the exact opposite with more mechanical complexity and none/minimal amounts for the jobs themselves.
I look back at silly things like healers and SMN pets tanking primals with great fondness even if they weren't remotely optimal. Now it's all optimise this and spreadsheet that. The enjoyment and mystery has obviously worn away at this stage but I can't help but feel glum that SE had a hand in accelerating the process of causing people to optimise the fun away. -
10-24-2023, 10:50 AMRenathrasExcept that's not what it is. And further, the desperation to make it that by some people (see Sebazy below) is evidence it's not some innocent ribbing or mild annoyance.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
I "go off" on people for using hyperbole (which is usually me just saying "You're using hyperbole", hardly "tearing into them") because of how often it's used to wrongly bolst- why am I even having this discussion?
This is stupid.
I'm not going to keep entertaining this tangent that is a desperate attempt to sidetrack things. THIS is the kind of thing I'm talking about.
No, it's not. See above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
And the rest of your unhinged rant doesn't help your case.
They why are you even disagreeing with me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I said WoW figured this out a decade and a half ago. Is that not so?
I pointed out in ARR FFXIV worked pretty well for this. You have some examples of a few people using it for a single encounter. You seem to be contesting me saying that people did it late in the expansion with "Well, acksually..." they did it early, except you have one case of one fight and it not being any where near universal.
If your only issue was "pretty much no one" was "well, some groups here and there", then good god, consider my prior statement amended. But it doesn't change the point:
WoW and FFXIV both figured this out a hell of a long time ago, so there's no reason we can't now. Are you going to sit here, while shitting on me, and insist that what we have right now for healer and combat design is all FFXIV can manage in the year of our lord 2023?
Because my argument was that it can do better.
That is what you're contesting while trying to one-up me with "thumbing yourself", whatever the hell THAT means.
EDIT:
My point was obvious, and you decided to latch onto a minor aside and ignore LITERALLY the entire rest of my position - including the much more interesting and pertinent discussion about support - to try to one-up me with your quip about hyperbole and trying to prove me wrong as a scrub vs your oh-so-high-and-might-amazing-hardcore-raider-from-2.1-self when we arguably AGREE on the overall situation needing change and your attempted disproving not really panning out using even your own sources to show that people disagreed with your position/agreed with mine at the time.
It's like, instead of joining hands, you picked one thing to specifically drive a thorn in my side and twist it around out of sheer spite when we could otherwise find points of agreement.
Like...WHY?
All you need to say was "Well, I did see a few groups run SCH/SCH on Twintania, but you're largely right that ARR overall had a good balance between WHM and SCH that worked in most encounters and for most players. I agree that modern FFXIV could take a page from its own past as well as WoW to make more interesting healing."
Why didn't you just...I dunno, say THAT or something like it instead? -
10-24-2023, 11:03 AMty_taurusExcept you have torn into people over it. Not every time, or even most of the time, but you play the role of hyperbole police and are quick to shove a finger in someone's face anytime you see a hyperbole that you don't like. You made a lengthy post not long ago specifically criticizing hyperbole and consequently those who use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Look, man, I'm trying to help you avoid getting into these fights. I'm not telling you that you can't use it, or that you're evil for doing so. I'm just saying if you are going to use it, then stop calling people out on it, otherwise it's hypocritical to always be the fastest sheriff to the draw when calling out others' use of hyperbole and then turn around to use it yourself. You can take the advice and use it to try and have healthier conversations with others, or if you like getting into constant altercations, then by all means, deny what I'm saying and ignore me. -
10-24-2023, 11:17 AMRenathrasWhen people are using it to form the crux of, or major bolstering to, their arguments, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
I appreciate you "trying to help", and genuinely believe you believe that's what you are doing (and I don't mean to be patronizing by that). But this is akin to saying "That guy who says murdering Humans is bad is murdering people. Let's all call him out on being a murderer and say how wrong he is to point out to others that murder is bad and how he needs to stop doing it!" "Who did he murder?" "He butchered out one of his chickens! He's such a murderer!"
...I know, I know "you're using an example of a thing we all know is bad"; whatever. The point is obvious, and you can accept it or quibble on the details. Either way, I'm not going to keep going with this line of reasoning.
Using hyperbole in general is not good. Using hyperbole as the crux of an argument or to falsely bolster a weak argument is bad. Using it when it's verifiably false (the recent case of "Precisely zero" being one such example). If you guys think hyperbole is bad, by all means, call me out on it - and everyone else who uses it. If you don't think it's bad, then whatever.
It's not a "healthier conversation" when people are calling me out for a thing while giving others a pass for it. Especially when most of the call-outs aren't even accurate. Or relevant.
.
But see what's happened?
Yet another case of someone deciding to deride me has derailed yet another thread.
Did her "calling me out" on that lead to a healthier conversation?
No. No it did not.
Are you going to advise her on ways to have a healthier conversation?
No. No you are not, are you?
Are you going to try to help her to avoid derailing threads and getting into these fights? Are you going to give her advice to avoid such instances in the future and to have healthier conversations with others without getting into constant altercations?
Well..I'd be thrilled if you did...but I suspect the answer is going to be you are not.
.
EDIT:
And the thing is, this is literally an aside to an aside TO AN ASIDE. It's a derail of a side conversation that has derailed the ENTIRE THREAD. And for what? What good has it done? What positive has come of it? What productive conversation are we having? What agreement are we reaching? What ideas are we exchanging?
/sigh -
10-24-2023, 12:38 PMty_taurusThe reason why other people don't get called out on their use of hyperbole is because those people aren't also complaining about and calling others out on hyperbole. If someone has a bad faith take, most here just call out the bad take. They're not fixated on how that was delivered, but you seem to get fixated on the fact that it is hyperbole regardless of the take. And that's the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Hyperbole is a tool--a literary device that is neither good nor bad. You described cases in which it can be unhealthy, and that's true, but it can be used in other ways as well. I first commented on your use of the term "stratospheric" because that would fall under the category you described of "falsely bolstering" your statement by over exaggerating the stances I and others who feel similarly as I do have taken to make your perspective sound better or to paint ours in a more negative light. Sebazy's comment on your use of "pretty much no one" is more just a bitter jab at the fact that it is hyperbole from someone who complains about hyperbole, but the actual comment on its own is fine. It's either true enough that we understand what you're saying, or it's misinformed.
And that leads me to whatever your argument has been about with Sebazy. Note that I haven't called her out, but I haven't called you out either in regards to the argument you two are having. That's because I'm not paying attention. I'm just responding to your comments directed at me. I'm really not interested in reading through everything in detail to try and play the referee, but I very lightly skimmed over the details. Sounds like you started out talking about the general player perception of SCH/SCH, Sebazy pivoted into a point about the strength of the comp and the advantages it offered for the coils, and you're trying to counter argue some of those points I guess.
On the actual point of the topic, Sebazy knows what she's talking about far more than you or I do when it comes to raiding and what raiding was like then. Not being a raider doesn't mean you don't know anything, but you do not have anywhere near the level of first hand experience on raiding that she has. Maybe, just maybe, she understands the raiding side of it more than you do. And I'm in the same boat for the record. My raiding experience back then was very limited. Sure, from the common player's perspective, SCH/WHM sounds like the right move, and the two naturally did compliment the others weaknesses. It just so happened that SCH was deceptively far better than most of us really understood, especially back then.
It actually reminds me a lot of competitive Pokemon. Because the current format for competitive Pokemon uses Scarlet and Violet, the most recent games. But old formats from past generations are still played competitively today. There's a YouTube channel called False Swipe Gaming that's put out very well researched videos on the competitive history of different Pokemon, and there are times where he discovers Pokemon that have gotten added to a past generation's Meta years after that generation ended because the modern competitive players have found out new strategies that no one thought to deploy back when the generation was current. And I imagine that if each expansion were achieved and playable for FFXIV, we would probably have done the same: learning about new strengths that we didn't realize were there at the time of that expansion. SCH/SCH being discovered as actually stronger or perhaps specifically stronger for certain fights, or whatever the case may be, is something the general playerbase would eventually have discovered rather than just the raiding community.
On the flip side, the whole "thumbing himself" comments are really nasty and uncalled for. I get why Sebazy feels annoyed. She feels that someone who has a fraction of her raiding experience and knowledge is trying to educate her on how raiding actually was, but there's a better way of going about it. -
10-24-2023, 04:31 PMAravellI honestly miss the silly things we could do back then as well. Fights being simpler meant we had a lot more freedom to solving it, like how me and some friends put up a PF to clear Ifrit EX with 8 monks (we cleared it), I had so much fun main tanking with cross-class Skull Sunder and Fists of Earth (I think I died around 40% and someone else took over, those nails exploding really hurt). I also remember when our tank disconnected in expert roulette and I tanked the boss with Titan-Egi and Sustain to keep the little nugget up, was some good times back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Sadly, with how rigid they make their fights now and how most jobs no longer have nuance and niche uses, we won't really be seeing funny runs like those anymore. -
10-24-2023, 05:08 PMSebazyLe shrugQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
They make their bed, they can sit in it.
I disagree with plenty of other people on here, probably the clearest case would be Semi over the current state of WHM?
So why don't we put each other on blast? Because we are able to respect each other's opinion and don't feel the need to resort to unproven statistics and unfounded opinions to discredit each other. Case in point:
Why indeed? Let's see now:Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Point 1. If you're going to call me out on something, at least do your homework and call me out correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Point 2. Pretty much no one did, except for uh, the people that did. If you had a WHM that struggled to time a Stoneskin to infirmity, it was actually a pretty big difference. If you're going to say that SCH's lack of healing was a bad trade off, let me remind you just how powerful and resource free rouse>whispering dawn was, now note that double SCH allowed you to maintain whispering dawn for a little over 40 seconds per minute. For free, without having to hassle your bards for Ballad and the associated DPS hit that came with it. Besides, how do you even know that 'pretty much no one' bothered with it? Were you actively raiding coils in 2.0? Did you participate in the raiding scene back then? Or are you just making assumptions because you personally never saw it when you tackled coil?
You need to realise that your jumping to assumptions and building an immovable fortress out of them even when you are clearly and certifiably wrong is a huge part of what causes you to put everyones back up.
I don't come swinging into commentary over the new raids and tell the current generation of spreadsheet enjoyers what's what because it's not something I'm part of anymore and it's not my place to try and speak over their firsthand experience. I'll drop my opinion for sure, but I'll make sure it's clear that it is just that. My opinion. Note how I liberally use IMO, IMHO etcetc? You are aware what they mean right? -
10-25-2023, 09:32 AMForsakenRoeI find that usually it tends to be that Job/class complexity has more lasting effect/staying power than mechanical complexity of content. Basically, if we use the phrase that 'the class is the lens by which we view the game', then having a weak class design (not in terms of strength, but cohesion/rewarding feeling/interactivity/room for player skill growth etc) is like having a lens that is warped, smudged with fingerprints, or coloured with a tint instead of being fully transparent. I can see (play the game, clear the content), but it does not matter what I look at, if it's the Mona Lisa or a literal trashcan, if my glasses are steamed up or smudged with fingerprints and dirt etc, I'm not going to be able to appreciate the thing in front of me. Even if it IS the Mona Lisa (a good raid design). But if I can see clearly, because my glasses are clean, I can at least rule out 'my glasses are scuffed' as the reason the thing in front of me is not appreciated correctly. I'd still say the trashcan (bad raid like P7S) is trashcan, but I can properly appreciate the Mona Lisa with clean glassesQuote:
Originally Posted by Connor
Assuming no Soils were used (for the sake of argument, would probably not recommend), you'd also have 6 Lustrates a minute to play around with, right? 25% max HP restore once every 10s on average, on top of Rouse>WD/Embrace, is a lot of throughput. But what would I know, I didn't raid back then (started in 2.5, re-started in 3.2)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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10-25-2023, 11:17 AMRenathras
Actually no, that would be impolite.
I'm just not going to engage with this anymore. -
10-25-2023, 03:09 PMAravellHonestly, I think that job complexity should always take priority over fight complexity. If you have easy jobs and complex fights, we run into the problem like P7S, where the fight was a complete flop and so we're stuck with simple jobs and a boring fight for 8 months until the devs get to try again and hopefully give us something fun this time. If you have complex jobs, the fight doesn't actually matter, I had an absolute blast in A9S (the literal definition of a dummy fight) because I had fun jobs back then that I could spend time mastering.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
There's also the fact that there are players who joined the game during the HW/SB era and stayed long term because they enjoyed the job design, these players have now been uprooted and continuously pushed away by the dev team and parts of the community both. More complexity placed into fights isn't going to bring them back. -
10-25-2023, 03:51 PMForsakenRoeP7S and P6S are the perfect examples to discredit the 'if they make jobs easier to master, we can have more complex fights' line. Not only does that throw the entire onus of 'challenge the player' on the content difficulty level (leading to situations like this where people who played the game too much are now bored by 95% of the content, since it is no longer a challenge to them), it also requires said difficulty actually be present even IN the difficulty bracket. When people on the reddit/forums say 'we should remove positionals from melee', I have to wonder, have they actually played P7S, or E7S? Those fights sucked bad, and had no positionals. The chances of SE doing a banger fight with no positionals involved seems to be a literal coinflip. Sometimes it's P2S or P10S and it's creative and cool, sometimes it's P12S part 2, E7S, P7S, to an extent E3S (why is it almost always the third fight that is so hit-or-miss). Maybe Viper will have no positionals, just to shut them upQuote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
I remember WOW removed a lot of abilities in a big prune, under the same logic of 'if we reduce job complexity, we can have more complexity in the content'. They've readded a lot of old 'fluff' skills to classes in this expansion, because it turns out, they were wrong, and they acknowledged it -
10-25-2023, 04:58 PMAravellI'm not entirely sure how they can give us a fantastic fight like P3S (who's only crime was being too orange) and then give us a flop like P7S the immediate tier after. If they're so inconsistent with fight complexity, what they're trying would never work out. Also, I wouldn't lump E3S in with the likes of E7S and P7S, E3S had some fun moments, it just happened far too late into the fight. Come to think of it, you could also do some funky optimisation stuff in the adds phase of E7S, P7S is the only third floor that's a complete flop in the last 2 expansions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Honestly, I don't see the dev team acknowledging anything, they're very averse to admitting fault about anything ever since late Stormblood or so, although I'd like to be wrong about this and see that they actually strike up a better balance in the next expansion.