DRK - AST/AST/AST - The frontline meta

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Originally Posted by Valence

Since it can't happen in CC, do buffs from identical LBs stack? I'd assume not since standard buffs?

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I believe least debuffs like Hysteria and Charmed can't stack, but as for buffs I imagine they wouldn't. But I never actually seen these buffs stack at all, or a scenario where they would.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I believe least debuffs like Hysteria and Charmed can't stack, but as for buffs I imagine they wouldn't. But I never actually seen these buffs stack at all, or a scenario where they would.

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Correct, buffs of the same kind do not stack, but they can get overwritten.

Having more ASTs in this scenario actually makes it worse because card effects overwrite each other instead of stacking. The amount of coordination required drops significantly because they all need to do the same thing (so it can be more of a follow-the-leader-and-turn-your-brain-off), but their maximum potential in the party is significantly reduced as a result due to the nature of how buffs and debuffs are applied. You can only have Balance or Arrow or Bole active, and never all at the same time. That means the more ASTs you have, the more card buffs that lose usefulness (so the maximum amount of extra DPS they can give to the party to any particular target drops a lot than if there was another job that did big burst damage). The same applies to their LB and Macrocosmos healing buff/aspected shield buff/aspected regen buff, it can't be stacked.

As far as AST's case, they just become one-trick ponies and incredibly weak after the initial burst as their sustain dps is incredibly low compared to a party with 8 diverse set of jobs. If players plays around their burst window, then it becomes much easier to turn the tide (because ASTs have nothing left after their burst, unlike other sustain dps jobs). Having more class diversity allows more flexibility in handling different situations with various tactics to prevent such a big weakness. Having 8 of the same classes mean their strengths and weaknesses become super pronounced as they all have the same kit perks, but due to the nature of buffs/debuffs in FFXIV being able to overlap and overwrite (with some debuffs just being resisted while the current debuff is still active - ex: Trying to stun a stunned enemy doesn't renew the stun), they get bigger diminishing returns in their gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Is infinitely more scary than a Bahamut ICBM squad, not gonna lie.

Macrocosmos memed me in Crystalline Conflict many a time without being the intended target - the range is silly for the damage output it can provide, it is actually bullsh** that it does 12000 base damage (6000-9000 at BH0 in FL) at a 15y radius around themselves.

I would not be surprised if they reduce macrocosmos to 8000 base damage and maybe compensate them in a different way (faster CD on Draw perhaps).

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That has to be one of the worst ideas of job design "compensation" I've seen in a while. This is more of the equivalent of chopping someone off at the knees and telling them to cheer up because they still have their arms.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

That has to be one of the worst ideas of job design "compensation" I've seen in a while. This is more of the equivalent of chopping someone off at the knees and telling them to cheer up because they still have their arms.

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I have no race in this horse, but this seems like the flavor of the week. Disparage a post instead of explaining why it's a problem from your point of view. Can we not debate and discuss anymore?

I am not to familiar with AST in CC, but nerfing one of its main forms of burst might be an issue? I know its dual cast uses for Malefic/Gravity are still really good though so it might be fine? Again, not really sure if nerfing it 8k base damage would be that epic or not.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I have no race in this horse, but this seems like the flavor of the week. Disparage a post instead of explaining why it's a problem from your point of view. Can we not debate and discuss anymore?

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Frankly, I'm not obliged to state why, (although I frequently do) stated that I think something is a poor idea isn't "disparaging a post". I'm not required to state why, if someone asks me why that's another matter.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I am not to familiar with AST in CC, but nerfing one of its main forms of burst might be an issue? I know its dual cast uses for Malefic/Gravity are still really good though so it might be fine? Again, not really sure if nerfing it 8k base damage would be that epic or not.

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You are absolutely heading in the correct direction., only substitute "the" for "one of the".

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Frankly, I'm not obliged to state why, (although I frequently do) stated that I think something is a poor idea isn't "disparaging a post". I'm not required to state why, if someone asks me why that's another matter.






You are absolutely heading in the correct direction., only substitute "the" for "one of the".

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You're right you don't have to explain its just good practice to explain when you comment on something in a vague and reactionary fashion.
So I'm confused are you not expression the opinion that it's of little worth?
Now I'm sold, nerf AST because people like this exist and deserve to suffer.

AST without salted earth are manageable. The problem is when its paired with DRK it wipes complete alliances. Pre 6.1 this would never happen, you would never see a complete alliance get wiped within 3 second. It needs to go.

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Originally Posted by maximesan514

AST without salted earth are manageable. The problem is when its paired with DRK it wipes complete alliances. Pre 6.1 this would never happen, you would never see a complete alliance get wiped within 3 second. It needs to go.

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The way that I'm reading this, it looks like you're claiming that a single DRK/AST pair can wipe out a whole alliance. If so, that alliance deserved it. Clearly no one knew who to guard, mark, focus targets, CC or even get out of the way.

If on the other hand you're talking about multiple DRK/AST ? Are we going to discuss premades against randoms? I don't even see alliances routinelywiping in 3 seconds, unless (and that's rare) it's a random one against a premade- in which case I see no issue whatsoever. When I've seen that happen, the premade has clearly been far better organized than the random alliance.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

You're right you don't have to explain its just good practice to explain when you comment on something in a vague and reactionary fashion.
So I'm confused are you not expression the opinion that it's of little worth?
Now I'm sold, nerf AST because people like this exist and deserve to suffer.

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No, but I consider that someone who goes from " I have no stake in this" to " I don't like you, so I'll vote a certain way just to spite you" to have little worth.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

No, but I consider that someone who goes from " I have no stake in this" to " I don't like you, so I'll vote a certain way just to spite you" to have little worth.

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Can't defend your position with words so yes, I can't agree with your vague opinions which don't seem to have any foundation.

I didn't care either way but thanks to your choice of words and general presentation yes now I don't like you.

You joined in 2020 so you're still fairly new. Hi, I'm Elfidan the incarnation of spite made flesh for the betterment of the world. I don't put much weight in the opinions of children who can't at least start out civil.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

That has to be one of the worst ideas of job design "compensation" I've seen in a while. This is more of the equivalent of chopping someone off at the knees and telling them to cheer up because they still have their arms.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

That has to be one of the worst ideas of job design "compensation" I've seen in a while. This is more of the equivalent of chopping someone off at the knees and telling them to cheer up because they still have their arms.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Frankly, I'm not obliged to state why, (although I frequently do) stated that I think something is a poor idea isn't "disparaging a post". I'm not required to state why, if someone asks me why that's another matter.

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Hi, I think you need to take a step back and actually check what you wrote because to me it looks like you think that the "one of the worst ideas of job design 'compensation'" was my personal idea let alone suggestion. It was not - it was what I expect the devs to do.

I would not mind AST losing 4000 damage on Macrocosmos, assuming it is accordingly compensated. Given the oGCD nature, it would still be part of its' burst at 8000 base damage following a Gravity II Dualcast.

To address the elephant in the room though - at 15y radius, 12000 damage alone would be insanely strong, but it also comes with Microcosmos' damage consolidation to heal. Given the heal part is part of being a Healer, it would make no sense to reduce the radius. Instead, a reduction in damage makes more sense.

Compensation besides the "I expect SE to do this" could be:
- Gravity II + Dualcast getting the 4000 damage (2000 each).
- Some dualcast adjustments like using Macro granting 66-100% of a charge of Dualcast
- Boosting the heal capacity of Macrocosmos
- Boosting the heal capacity of Aspected Benefic


...as you can see I got many ideas of what they could give AST to keep it strong without having to keep the 12000dmg 15y nuke that currently plagues FL. Maybe instead of just kneejerk reacting with "worst idea ever", refusing to elaborate unless "I" asked and generally acting with way too much aggression you could just ask for clarification or hell, discuss it with me.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Hi, I think you need to take a step back and actually check what you wrote because to me it looks like you think that the "one of the worst ideas of job design 'compensation'" was my personal idea let alone suggestion. It was not - it was what I expect the devs to do.

I would not mind AST losing 4000 damage on Macrocosmos, assuming it is accordingly compensated. Given the oGCD nature, it would still be part of its' burst at 8000 base damage following a Gravity II Dualcast.

To address the elephant in the room though - at 15y radius, 12000 damage alone would be insanely strong, but it also comes with Microcosmos' damage consolidation to heal. Given the heal part is part of being a Healer, it would make no sense to reduce the radius. Instead, a reduction in damage makes more sense.

Compensation besides the "I expect SE to do this" could be:
- Gravity II + Dualcast getting the 4000 damage (2000 each).
- Some dualcast adjustments like using Macro granting 66-100% of a charge of Dualcast
- Boosting the heal capacity of Macrocosmos
- Boosting the heal capacity of Aspected Benefic


...as you can see I got many ideas of what they could give AST to keep it strong without having to keep the 12000dmg 15y nuke that currently plagues FL. Maybe instead of just kneejerk reacting with "worst idea ever", refusing to elaborate unless "I" asked and generally acting with way too much aggression you could just ask for clarification or hell, discuss it with me.

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No, the origins of a bad idea doesn't really change whether it is good or not, now does it? and no, I don't view AST as a "plague", might want to take a look at some of the other jobs.

And no, the amount of detail that I want to add in a post is up to me, as is whether or not I want to continue in a thread. You're free to discount it if you feel that it's baseless, on the other hand I wouldn't be so fast to read aggression in my intent.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I don't even see alliances routinely wiping in 3 seconds, unless (and that's rare) it's a random one against a premade

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You don't play enough, seems like you are unaware of what is happening. The game is broken.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Hi, I think you need to take a step back and actually check what you wrote because to me it looks like you think that the "one of the worst ideas of job design 'compensation'" was my personal idea let alone suggestion. It was not - it was what I expect the devs to do.

I would not mind AST losing 4000 damage on Macrocosmos, assuming it is accordingly compensated. Given the oGCD nature, it would still be part of its' burst at 8000 base damage following a Gravity II Dualcast.

To address the elephant in the room though - at 15y radius, 12000 damage alone would be insanely strong, but it also comes with Microcosmos' damage consolidation to heal. Given the heal part is part of being a Healer, it would make no sense to reduce the radius. Instead, a reduction in damage makes more sense.

Compensation besides the "I expect SE to do this" could be:
- Gravity II + Dualcast getting the 4000 damage (2000 each).
- Some dualcast adjustments like using Macro granting 66-100% of a charge of Dualcast
- Boosting the heal capacity of Macrocosmos
- Boosting the heal capacity of Aspected Benefic


...as you can see I got many ideas of what they could give AST to keep it strong without having to keep the 12000dmg 15y nuke that currently plagues FL. Maybe instead of just kneejerk reacting with "worst idea ever", refusing to elaborate unless "I" asked and generally acting with way too much aggression you could just ask for clarification or hell, discuss it with me.

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I can't speak for others, but IMO those are really REALLY bad compensations that will kill AST's job design. The reason Macrocosmos and Aspected Benefic works in the toolkit is because AST has a lot of decision-making to how they want to spend their healing and leverage the full power of Aspected Benefic's regen and Macrocosmos' compiled healing effect in a chaotic and frequently spiky damage in PvP. The key to decision-making on AST is how Dualcast interacts with the rest of the toolkit, including the RNG of card buffs. Buffing Gravity II + Dualcast to increase damage just forces AST into a state where "you're now forced to use Gravity II + Dualcast on cd or you lose egagarious amounts of damage since the biggest portion of the damage is locked here". That is even worse for gameplay since Dualcast and Gravity II are both 15s cooldown. There's no more gameplay decision to be had anymore in how you spend your remaining Dualcast charge. In other words, AST currently feels good because it managed to balance the entire toolkit and offers meaningful gameplay decisions - and all the while keeping it fairly straightforward and simple.

With the current setup, you at least have choices because a portion of your damage is locked behind Dualcast Gravity II, but there are more situations where it can be beneficial to forgo Dualcast Gravity II for healing as aspected benefic alone isn't strong enough, but doubling it up with dualcast gives it a unique advantage to other healers. Forcing Macro to lower dualcast recast speed results in being unable to leverage Macro's healing compiling fully since you would want to use it on cd to access Dualcast Malefic more. The changes would contest too heavily on Dualcast Aspected Benefic to gain usage out of it. Not to mention, I'll just be ignoring leveraging the card effects fully and stick with the same strategy if healing & Gravity II gets buffed on AST. If I'm playing AST in Frontlines, I don't want to be locked into a more static gameplay rotation. Static gameplay rotations runs completely counter to how AST was designed to be played.

As per the original idea - In PvP, AST's Draw is currently already a 20s CD. The duration of a card's buff is 15s. The most you can buff Draw by reducing its cd is 5s. The difference between Draw at 20s and 15s gives you leeway to hold the card for a slightly more favorable situation and time to realign your dualcast proc. Reducing the cooldown of Draw does nothing for AST in that regard. Not to mention, the complaint was that 3 AST stacking Macrocosmos is strong to people who don't have any clue how to play around it, but buffing cards literally does nothing for that composition other than nerfing that composition without giving anything in return. Only 1 card buff can be active at a time in a party, so any additional ASTs just straight up loses damage and card flexibility further. That's incredibly huge difference in power gap. If you were to tell me this is compensation, I'd take that as a thinly veiled provocation to nerf AST.

If you were thinking about buffing Malefic so AST can recoup damage through their ST nuke, that's a new can of worms that the healer forums will probably chew you out for. Everyone's so sick of that in PvE. Forcing an increase in ST nuke means you want to heal as little as possible to keep up sustained dps, but due to the spiky nature of damage in PvP it's better to err on the side of caution than on the side of DPS so that also especially runs counter to how AST wants to play when leveraging limited dualcast charges.

If you were thinking about buffing Balance, you have to remember that is completely RNG so that's actually pretty bad in terms of card balance and opens up more issues. If you were to guarantee all cards will give a DPS increase in addition to whatever additional effect the other cards will provide, then you start stepping on BRD's toes.

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Originally Posted by Yegu

https://files.catbox.moe/c9j66q.jpg

It's a joke

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Oh man... that's rough. Might as well just skip FL for the night cause they definitely aren't just queuing for one game.

I know it isn't their fault that FL design is flawed, but these players have a choice, and they've decided to actively partake in destroying and suck the fun out of FL.

I spoke with few of them when they were in my party. They acknowledged the fact that they are exploiting it, while it lasts.

The "Frontline meta" is basically "farm kills for Battle High off of the ignorant masses who don't know how or when to a) Guard, b) Identify oncoming threats, c) Focus targets 1st that don't have their finger over a 10-second invulnerability skill, d) stay with their team, and sometimes e) utilize Recuperate (sad, but I see it regularly)."

The thing is, DRK's pull-in+salted earth (and LB) is an extremely effective way to take advantage of all of those traits. The reason its so effective is because most people queuing Frontlines:

1) Don't know how to identify a DRK initiating a pull-in (or CC them) and their 1st instict is to run away- not Guard (which causes them to die to any and all follow-ups),
2) Do not understand the concept of tanks and melee having larger defense modifiers than ranged dps and healers, and tend to fixate on whatever happens to be closest/easier to Tab target even if it's literally the hardest target they could pick to kill.
3) Do not bother changing targets and will often continue to stubbornly spam their keys on even DRKs and PLDs; who usually (and in the case of DRKs, almost certainly) are prepared to burn their LB- effectively making them unkillable for 10 seconds, causing them to waste precious burst phases and LBs. And some people still refuse to stop beating on invincible targets.

In addition to those, DRK happens to be the only job in most Frontlines scenarios that literally shapes the flow of any given engagement. The pull-in is deceptively large and can grab an unnaturally large group of people into a concentrated spot; which in turn makes it easy for their entire team to use their AoE toolkit and be guaranteed a large number of kills and assists, and having their LB as a follow-up not only makes them essentially immune to repercussions, but in itself does respectable AoE damage which is only compounded if the DRK has high levels of Battle High.

Even though there exists specific counterplays to DRK shenanigans, they're often temporary and requires individuals saving their entire CC kits specifically to delay one DRK for a couple seconds. Indeed, the best way to deal with them is reacting with Guard and crawling away, but WAR and DNC/RPR wingmen are uncommon, but not unheard of. Of course, this is asking too much of most casual Frontline participants; after all, these are some of the same people who routinely accumulate Vuln stacks or even repeatedly die to old, routine PvE content- so expecting them to react accordingly to dynamic PvP situations is a stretch. That's not to say Frontlines should continuously be dumbed down for them, but the fact that one job can impose entire teams to basically expend their limited Guard resource or die... That's almost about as unhealthy as PLDs basically making captures uninterruptable with Guardian.

As for ASTs; I mean, yeah, coordinated Macrocosmos can be lethal. The stacking of many AoEs are lethal; even SCHs. The thing about ASTs is they are squishy; you have a few attentive players with ranged options and you can heavily dissuade or even kill an AST running up to try and use it. The problem is your average Frontliner won't. They'll see the DRK running in (or not, maybe they suck), maybe with a WAR or two, and decide that's what they'll blow their 0 Battle High burst on, and keep going even after the DRK pops Eventide... Your average person queuing Frontline is just not very savvy to these things, hence all the "lolPvP" sentiments and Twitch "I sleep" spam whenever there's a live letter addressing it, but when they actually set foot in PvP they make an absolute clown of themselves like someone joining an EX farm group without a clear or even looking at a guide 1st.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

No, the origins of a bad idea doesn't really change whether it is good or not, now does it? and no, I don't view AST as a "plague", might want to take a look at some of the other jobs.

And no, the amount of detail that I want to add in a post is up to me, as is whether or not I want to continue in a thread. You're free to discount it if you feel that it's baseless, on the other hand I wouldn't be so fast to read aggression in my intent.

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Never claimed the idea to be good, only wanted to clarify that the idea is not what I want or think is good but rather what I expect them to do.

Fair enough on the latter part.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

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Sorry, would moving 4000 damage from Macrocosmos elsewhere really "kill the job design of AST"? A 12000 dmg Macro with 8000 dmg Gravity II vs a 8000 dmg Macro with 12000 dmg Gravity II would not kill the job design, only move where the damage is placed.

You bring forth a good point regarding the Dualcast feedback, so the idea is what I now mentioned, moving the damage portion to the normal Gravity II cast. It would not force more usage of Dualcast onto Gravity II yet would keep the AOE burst strong within a 5y radius (Gravity II) while reducing Macro's output for AST nuke squadding. The extra compensation from this would be Gravity II simply coming with a 15s recast so you get +4000*n dmg every 30s total. Not too crazy.

Good point with the Draw btw, I don't know why but I thought Draw's recast was currently 30s so that's off the table. 15s recast Draw would mean you could chain card after card.

That said, I would not disregard potential changes such as changing the spam button (Malefic) just because PVE does PVE things. What happens there stays there. But at this point I don't think it would be beneficial to buff it.

I have some ideas how to have a larger impact in games where there are lots of DRK/DRG/AST. Play Samurai or Reaper to counter this meta. Both these jobs absolutely crush it, but I see fewer of them recently.:eek:

Dark Knight and Dragoon both have so much AOE damage they have a hard time avoiding Hissatsu: Chiten. Samurai can shut down their battle highs so easily with smart use of Zantetsuken.

Reapers should aggressively Hell's Ingress into the back line and force healers back, to panic, or sometimes kill them while having the safety of Regress. Tenebrae Lemurum is such a good ultimate for causing disruption to forced engages. If aware enough to identify the engaging players Reaper can disrupt half of them with uncleansable CC which ruins engages.

I feel like the whole approach to remedying the DRK/[Insert Class] issue is a CC issue, so we are beating a dead horse trying to figure Frontline balance resolutions. The potential resolve is going to be one that works in both CC, with an "unintended" QoL improvement to FL.

Spitballing ideas (open to critique), I think DRK's Salted Earth utility should be revised. Instead of a draw-in ability with a radius of 10 yalms, Salted Earth should give a 5 or 10 yalm pushback. It makes some sense in CC because it would clear off the crystal of the enemy team much in the way Reaper's LB does, while keeping the damage reduction, 2k heal ticks, and 2k damage ticks. Upon re-entry of salted earth, the bind could still be activated. The switch in utility would change how DRK fundamentally plays in CC, but hopefully not reduce its overall effectiveness (looking at Quietus)?

The end result in FL would be less of a singular point to dogpile [inset class] limit breaks onto (e.g. Dragoons LB, GNBs LB, DRKs own LB, etc), while keeping utility to clear out objectives and make for some height plays on Onsal, Shatter, and Seal Rock (to some extent).

We're also talking about AST in this thread. What do we think about damage drop-off on Macrocosmos? Maintaining its 12k at close range, but decreasing down to 6k the further the enemy is from the Astrologin. Or on a slightly different note, reducing Gravity II's range down to 15? This would put AST more in the line of danger to make the most of Macrocosmos, or to get the cast off on their 1 or 2 Gravity II. I don't have enough experience with AST in CC to know if this would ruin it's capabilities there, or if there a benefit AST could be given as a trade. Regardless, that would be the main barrier to implement any AST changes.

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Originally Posted by Aubrey_A

I feel like the whole approach to remedying the DRK/[Insert Class] issue is a CC issue, so we are beating a dead horse trying to figure Frontline balance resolutions. The potential resolve is going to be one that works in both CC, with an "unintended" QoL improvement to FL.

Spitballing ideas (open to critique), I think DRK's Salted Earth utility should be revised. Instead of a draw-in ability with a radius of 10 yalms, Salted Earth should give a 5 or 10 yalm pushback. It makes some sense in CC because it would clear off the crystal of the enemy team much in the way Reaper's LB does, while keeping the damage reduction, 2k heal ticks, and 2k damage ticks. Upon re-entry of salted earth, the bind could still be activated. The switch in utility would change how DRK fundamentally plays in CC, but hopefully not reduce its overall effectiveness (looking at Quietus)?

The end result in FL would be less of a singular point to dogpile [inset class] limit breaks onto (e.g. Dragoons LB, GNBs LB, DRKs own LB, etc), while keeping utility to clear out objectives and make for some height plays on Onsal, Shatter, and Seal Rock (to some extent).

We're also talking about AST in this thread. What do we think about damage drop-off on Macrocosmos? Maintaining its 12k at close range, but decreasing down to 6k the further the enemy is from the Astrologin. Or on a slightly different note, reducing Gravity II's range down to 15? This would put AST more in the line of danger to make the most of Macrocosmos, or to get the cast off on their 1 or 2 Gravity II. I don't have enough experience with AST in CC to know if this would ruin it's capabilities there, or if there a benefit AST could be given as a trade. Regardless, that would be the main barrier to implement any AST changes.

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I don't know about the DRK change, mostly because the idea with the death pool is go get people to go into it and fight you in there. Not just for doing more damage, but taking less since its also a defensive tool for them. Which if you are fighting ranged enemies it becomes a pain to push the enemy away and either leave your defensive pool to kill them or just stand there like a dummy.

I do think the AST range could be smaller, or at the very least have its range be penalized. This is also more of a CC critique, but being behind a wall from an AST and getting owned by an AoE from someone I can't see is cringe. I think overall making it harder for them to get full damage cuz they have to be a squishy healer go in the middle of a group of enemies sounds like a decent balance.

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Originally Posted by Aubrey_A

I feel like the whole approach to remedying the DRK/[Insert Class] issue is a CC issue, so we are beating a dead horse trying to figure Frontline balance resolutions. The potential resolve is going to be one that works in both CC, with an "unintended" QoL improvement to FL.

Spitballing ideas (open to critique), I think DRK's Salted Earth utility should be revised. Instead of a draw-in ability with a radius of 10 yalms, Salted Earth should give a 5 or 10 yalm pushback. It makes some sense in CC because it would clear off the crystal of the enemy team much in the way Reaper's LB does, while keeping the damage reduction, 2k heal ticks, and 2k damage ticks. Upon re-entry of salted earth, the bind could still be activated. The switch in utility would change how DRK fundamentally plays in CC, but hopefully not reduce its overall effectiveness (looking at Quietus)?

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Not really? Implementing a pushback forces DRK's whole toolkit to be redesigned. DRK wants to force multiple enemies to play in their salted earth because that's how they get the most benefit out of Quietus' healing and the natural effects of Salt and Darkness. The reason why Reaper LB works is because RPR itself doesn't have any skills that require being stationary to get its full value. They are highly mobile and RPR's healing follows them as a buff. DRK itself plays the exact opposite. DRK wants enemies inside their Salted Earth domain because Salted Earth does damage and heals themselves while inside. Salt and Darkness (combo action of Salted Earth) binds a target and guarantees additional damage after the draw-in effect, which works well in conjunction with Salted Earth doing DoT damage and forcing enemies to play in their heal zone. Enemies would want to move away from the salted Earth to reduce incoming damage and reduce DRK's advantage. Pushing the Crystal and stepping into DRK's Salted Earth is the consequence of where the Crystal is placed, similarly to SGE's LB. The enemy team would rather not step into it if possible, but DRK and SGE can force it because that is their advantage for a skill that is centered to a specific location rather a targeted enemy.

Applying a knockback immediately reduces the threat of Salted Earth's presence immensely to the point where DRK is now just a punching bag as enemies can completely avoid stepping into their strengthened zone initially. You'd have to rework Salted Earth to just not be a DoT effect entirely then, since the knockback defeats the point of the skill itself.

Imo, reducing Macrocosmo's damage from 12k at close range to 10k by 10yalms, and 8k by 20y is fine. That would effectively provide strengths and weaknesses to AST's positioning.

Just delete Salted Earth entirely. There are better class fantasy abilities for DRK.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I don't know about the DRK change, mostly because the idea with the death pool is go get people to go into it and fight you in there. Not just for doing more damage, but taking less since its also a defensive tool for them. Which if you are fighting ranged enemies it becomes a pain to push the enemy away and either leave your defensive pool to kill them or just stand there like a dummy.

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I never thought about the ranged portion. How AnotherPerson sums it up a knockback of probably isn't the answer given how much effort would be required to make it the answer. I still think the root to so many FL plays comes from a DRK being able to consolidate enemies into one location, so I'm inclined to say that's the area that needs to be changed (even though its pivotal to DRKs CC and pvp gameplay loop).

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I do think the AST range could be smaller, or at the very least have its range be penalized. This is also more of a CC critique, but being behind a wall from an AST and getting owned by an AoE from someone I can't see is cringe. I think overall making it harder for them to get full damage cuz they have to be a squishy healer go in the middle of a group of enemies sounds like a decent balance.

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Macrocosmos hitting through walls is an odd one to me. Some sort of reduction in damage feels like a step in the right direction, but I'm sure someone would come back to me and say it wouldn't make a difference with the zerg mentality in FL (just pile on a few more Astros to make up the damage loss, and we're back at square one).

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Originally Posted by Mecia

Just delete Salted Earth entirely. There are better class fantasy abilities for DRK.

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Yeah no I'll humbly decline. Cap the draw-in at 5 targets maybe so you guys don't have to scare yourself shitless because spacing sub parties apart is apparently difficult, but removing Salted Earth because of FL crybabies, take a hike.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Not really? Implementing a pushback forces DRK's whole toolkit to be redesigned. DRK wants to force multiple enemies to play in their salted earth because that's how they get the most benefit out of Quietus' healing and the natural effects of Salt and Darkness. The reason why Reaper LB works is because RPR itself doesn't have any skills that require being stationary to get its full value. They are highly mobile and RPR's healing follows them as a buff. DRK itself plays the exact opposite. DRK wants enemies inside their Salted Earth domain because Salted Earth does damage and heals themselves while inside. Salt and Darkness (combo action of Salted Earth) binds a target and guarantees additional damage after the draw-in effect, which works well in conjunction with Salted Earth doing DoT damage and forcing enemies to play in their heal zone. Enemies would want to move away from the salted Earth to reduce incoming damage and reduce DRK's advantage. Pushing the Crystal and stepping into DRK's Salted Earth is the consequence of where the Crystal is placed, similarly to SGE's LB. The enemy team would rather not step into it if possible, but DRK and SGE can force it because that is their advantage for a skill that is centered to a specific location rather a targeted enemy.

Applying a knockback immediately reduces the threat of Salted Earth's presence immensely to the point where DRK is now just a punching bag as enemies can completely avoid stepping into their strengthened zone initially. You'd have to rework Salted Earth to just not be a DoT effect entirely then, since the knockback defeats the point of the skill itself.

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Worded like that, a knockback doesn't seem like the right approach. I would like to see DRK move away from its draw-in in FL, but I don't think its kit could handle the change without some overhaul.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Imo, reducing Macrocosmo's damage from 12k at close range to 10k by 10yalms, and 8k by 20y is fine. That would effectively provide strengths and weaknesses to AST's positioning.

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I'm on board with the damage reduction the further you are away. Another different idea came up, how about deferring some damage to the end of Macrocosmos/ at Microcosmos? If 12k is what we are working with, why not 8k in damage across the 20y, followed up by the existing heal/ 4k damage at the end?

A form of compiled damage in the same vein as Riddle of Earth might be a more interesting option. Seeing how Microcosmos heals are based on compiled damage, why not reduce a portion of ASTs Macrocosmos damage (8k for arguments sake), and microcosmos could compile damage for an end-of-duration hit? Even if it totals for more then the 12k, it's something that can be planned around given the damage can be telegraphed.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Yeah no I'll humbly decline. Cap the draw-in at 5 targets maybe so you guys don't have to scare yourself shitless because spacing sub parties apart is apparently difficult, but removing Salted Earth because of FL crybabies, take a hike.

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I didnt spit in your cereal, damn. I have no trouble evading this meta in FL, i just think SE is bottom of the barrel considering DRKs ability history.

Besides i never liked what they did with DRK overall compared to the other tanks. Its bread and butter is reverse WAR but arguably worse and its only game changing buttons are Eventide and Salted Earth.

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Originally Posted by Mecia

I didnt spit in your cereal, damn. I have no trouble evading this meta in FL, i just think SE is bottom of the barrel considering DRKs ability history.

Besides i never liked what they did with DRK overall compared to the other tanks. Its bread and butter is reverse WAR but arguably worse and its only game changing buttons are Eventide and Salted Earth.

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Fair enough, sorry for the rash comment. I am just getting really annoyed over the constant complaints of DRK when DRK is just a generic enabler, so I probably came over a bit too harsh.

Arguably, this is the most interesting version of DRK they have ever given to us. I enjoy it because I can be really tanky in one moment and a legitimate melee dps in another and the skills are nicely designed around active Shadowbringer usage. I think Plunge is also quite an important tool to turn the tides. DRK is a snowballing job due to this and the gameplay is constantly pushing the advantage you have or creating one. Granted, I also enjoyed pre 6.1 DRK which was about Darkside management + strong burst assist.

Back to the topic of addressing DRK's power state - if DRK is truly seen as the issue in FL and Salted Earth gets too much value, then 5-target cap on Salted Earth is the simplest way to handle DRK for largescale PvP. It would still be strong, just not overbearing. Beyond this nothing is currently worth tweaking for FL on DRK.

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Originally Posted by Aubrey_A

I never thought about the ranged portion. How AnotherPerson sums it up a knockback of probably isn't the answer given how much effort would be required to make it the answer. I still think the root to so many FL plays comes from a DRK being able to consolidate enemies into one location, so I'm inclined to say that's the area that needs to be changed (even though its pivotal to DRKs CC and pvp gameplay loop).

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They could just make it have a delay between Salted Earth and Salt and Darkness so you can't immediately get binded maybe? That might have issues with keeping people in as well but less bad. Mostly just spitballing this idea

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Originally Posted by Aubrey_A

Macrocosmos hitting through walls is an odd one to me. Some sort of reduction in damage feels like a step in the right direction, but I'm sure someone would come back to me and say it wouldn't make a difference with the zerg mentality in FL (just pile on a few more Astros to make up the damage loss, and we're back at square one).

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You already need like 4 to make the bit work and if this change were in the game it would require more to make a oneshot happen. Which requiring more the 4max for a pre-made group it would prolly be really difficult. I can still see how it would be abused, just not as hard.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

They could just make it have a delay between Salted Earth and Salt and Darkness so you can't immediately get binded maybe? That might have issues with keeping people in as well but less bad. Mostly just spitballing this idea

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My two cents - I don't think this would be a good change. While it might achieve some of the excessive crowd control in Frontlines, it would feel unbelievably clunky and I'd worry if Salt & Darkness would ever get a hit in without placing it directly on an objective. Not a fun change, I'd sooner have the Bind be replaced with something else than an increased delay before Salt & Darkness can be used.

It seems every single FL match I see a hyper aggressive blue team with what seems like a DRK/AST/DRG premade setup. Took a break from FL to play other games, got back and first match was again with same blue team.

I do wonder if there's something in the match making code that puts premades in blue. It was like that way back when they de-coupled your Grand Company from you in-match team, but I thought that was solved years ago.

They could just make it so that Macrocosmos adds a buff to the player who's hit by it that prevents them from taking damage from Macroscosmos again for 10seconds or so. I'd argue that they could reduce the radius but then that'd force the AST into very unfavorable positioning which isn't really fair seeing as how on it's own, the ability is fine. Salted Earth is also fine.

Just remove tanks and healer from PVP, then you may actually get a balance...

God knows how many more months of this borefest. Selective BH on abilities, lower player counts, damage caps, shift damage around please just ANYTHING.

Can they peek their heads into western FL so they take notice of this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Yegu

https://files.catbox.moe/c9j66q.jpg

It's a joke

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Sounds just like another day in FL.

Then again, how it usually happened when I see it happening is: 9 out of 10 times because enough people feeding into their BH meters for not knowing how to deal with DRK's draw ins, their invuln, not knowing when/how(???) to press Guard, heck---even how to Recuperate (lmao). Not to mention when people call for a retaliation, they're basically trying to fight a group who's very likely has a caller (read: not premade) who make use of macros to call out when to initiate their burst, retreat, hide, flanking, and/or already racking up multiple BHs (you cannot fight them head on lol).

A lesser occasion after being trampled, there are people who also volunteer to call out whenever marked DRK puller are exhibiting signs of plunging in. Surprise: people actually CAN react in time and even better, sometimes counter their setup!

- Remove BH Buff
it would have solved much, a lot of abilites are only strong due to high BH!

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Originally Posted by Mecia

God knows how many more months of this borefest. Selective BH on abilities, lower player counts, damage caps, shift damage around please just ANYTHING.

Can they peek their heads into western FL so they take notice of this nonsense.

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The same DRK combo is being used in JP FL. It's a lot less effective here though, the people here will mark DRKs and put out a callout macro when the DRK is about to dive, the DRK combo only then gets like 3-5 kills as the majority of the alliance backs off and readies to counterattack. You'd be surprised by how good a simple "Look out!" macro is in making the DRK combo a lot less effective.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The same DRK combo is being used in JP FL. It's a lot less effective here though, the people here will mark DRKs and put out a callout macro when the DRK is about to dive, the DRK combo only then gets like 3-5 kills as the majority of the alliance backs off and readies to counterattack. You'd be surprised by how good a simple "Look out!" macro is in making the DRK combo a lot less effective.

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People in general seem to put in the effort if they que there. It doesnt have to be much but you get called a try hard for even saying to look at the score or map here.

I swear to god guys... it seems to be back to the PLD cheese... i keep killing asts and drks, but it does not matter, they will soon be back and erase my all party of idiots.