Me using tank invuln ability right before getting hit with 5% hp left and dying anyway because of the awful server ticks (The ability enters cooldown tho because f*ck me):
*clown face*
Can we please, have a modernization for the servers. (Specifically, tick/refreshrate)
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10-07-2023, 12:51 AMDiabolika
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10-07-2023, 12:53 AMValkyrie_Lenneth
Just so people understand. This is a software choice/issue, not hardware. The hardware was updated recently.
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10-07-2023, 01:01 AMdasimBaaI mean i don't have any specific knowledge about servers and tickrate and how the game engine decides to send these infos and how these things are to change. But i don't understand if it's mainly software, and it's their own in-house software, why they wouldn't change this for the better. I mean obviously i'm aware that it likely requires more "money" or performance from the servers, but it just seems like something i wouldn't want to have in my game if i created it. And the whole gaming market has a higher standard than this so i really don't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
But again, i have absolutely 0 idea how it ACTUALLY technically works. I just know the concept behind it. -
10-07-2023, 01:05 AMValkyrie_LennethQuote:
Originally Posted by dasimBaa
A lot of that is hard coded into the engine. Much if it is also dependant on ping. It can be difficult to change things like this due to how the systems all interact. It's not just processing power. A higher tick rate means more packets because the clients need to be updated more often on positioning. It's not a simple "change tick rate to 50ms." option.
As far as I know, the game operates on a 300ms position update.
As for aoes and getting hit by them, 99% of the time it's because the boss cast bar finished and you were still in the aoe. Cast bar is what snapshots you. Not the aoe on the ground. -
10-07-2023, 02:37 AMJeeqbitIndeed but if there isn't a cast bar, you can also generally rely on - if red aoe disappears, it snapshots, as well, and both these things usually align as well if there are both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
That does happen with tank invulns such as Hallowed Ground, but again I've never seen this as some kind of "tick rate" issue but rather that there is a long animation that occurs where your player puts up a shield around them, and once that shield appears around them, the buff gets applied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diabolika
Ability effects should just happen instantly and not necessarily be tied to the animation. I know that isn't as lore-friendly but it makes the gameplay more reliable and smoother. -
10-07-2023, 02:41 AMValkyrie_LennethQuote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
Yep. Hallowed going on CD and the effect not finishing is a design choice, not server tick related. The effect is applied after the animation finishes. There are abilities that apply effects immediately. -
10-07-2023, 11:33 AMP0sitr0nicThis, and has needed it since day 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberrycake
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10-07-2023, 07:09 PMYushees
Maybe the Cloud servers addition is the first baby step towards a fix in the future. It doesn't help the fact we play on 80-100MS because of the current server infrastructure... One can only hope. In some cases, it feels like we are playing Runescape with how the snapshoting works over there
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10-07-2023, 07:37 PMSaraideAbsolute classic. This is exactly why invulns currently do not work as panic buttons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diabolika
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10-08-2023, 03:18 AMdasimBaaRight it seems like there would be actually more options to design encounters if the game allowed for quicker reaction mechanics. But with everything being so delayed it's quite literally not possible to design any of those mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
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10-08-2023, 04:11 AMAbsimiliardMore like it snapshots you when it's 3/4ths of the way finished. You've got really good odds of getting hit if you aren't already out before that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
Suibolide go brrr.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
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10-08-2023, 05:50 AMAnimaJan
The refresh rate is an extremely big problem. One of the main ones this game has. But I love this game and it means a lot to me, so I want it to be as good as it can be if some improvements were made. You can call it Copium I guess, but yeah, I'm considering leaving the game if devs change nothing for 7.0.
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10-09-2023, 01:15 AMDiabolikaI never learnQuote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
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10-09-2023, 01:34 AMDiabolikaExactly. Server-ticks related or not, the fact that the game got its own silly delay (that is not connection dependant) makes everything quite clunky when it comes to reaction (especially noticeably in pvp).Quote:
Originally Posted by dasimBaa
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10-09-2023, 10:46 AMdasimBaa
Yea for pvp it's kind of wild, it just makes meele bordering on unplayable. The fact i can always be a second or two ahead of a meele if i kite him is just wild.
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10-09-2023, 02:23 PMMuraBoyI totally agree. Unfortunately, the refresh rate in this game is awful and some buffs being applied waaaaay after you press the button doesn't help either. I really think we needed a rework/upgrade on this before graphics update but it is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasimBaa
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10-09-2023, 09:58 PMJeeqbitI disagree. I only had the 3/4ths issue when I was on a low-spec laptop which I determined was adding an artificial 1,000 ms to my ping due to hardware bottlenecking affecting packet processing, a ping which was not displayed anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
With a modern PC, even with 200 ping I can move at 9/10ths of the cast and get out of it successfully 999 out of 1000 times. -
10-10-2023, 12:43 AMIselion
I usually only lurk, but it's astounding to see how many people replying to this thread do not even know what OP is talking about.
Please, do not participate in threads like this if you don't know the difference between Client-Server ping and Server ticks. -
10-10-2023, 12:52 AMBoblawblahhttps://media.tenor.com/T2z0kQf5xCkAAAAd/mock-sassy.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Iselion
Seometimez i get bad server ticks, but that's because I live far away from the servers. -
10-10-2023, 12:53 AMJeeqbitIt's always been astounding the number of people who blame server ticks when it's mostly animations delays and ping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iselion
Server ticks are relevant for DoTs because, well, they tick. -
10-10-2023, 01:12 AMIselionThis is false. When you provoke a mob, you see it go off, but the mob doesn't immediately run to you, it takes about half a second. Same with with interjects, pushbacks, pull-ins and ESPECIALLY Rescue. This is because the servers are updating slowly to reduce server load. Had you played any other MMOs, you'd have noticed how bizarrely poor FFXIV is in this regard. It feels "sticky" when you switch over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
Now this is not to say animation delays aren't also a factor and to be honest those should go, inconsistent as they are. BLM has several skills that will show damage before the spell even visually pops while Benediction takes a full second from a button press to go off. Astounding that this has not been changed since 2.0 for a skill that is supposed to be for emergency use. -
10-10-2023, 02:52 AMJeeqbitTrue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iselion
With interject it takes a while, yes, but there are far more responsive abilities showing that they can make them more responsive if they want to, such as Sidewinder as compared with many of Bard's other attack abilities such as Bloodletter or Empyreal Arrow which do a real slow arrow animation before executing.Quote:
Same with with interjects
Tank Stances or Inner Release are also faster compared to a lot of other abilities such as Hallowed Ground.
At hunts what you notice with hundreds of players is that it knocks them back using a simple loop that cycles through all the players up to a pre-determined maximum based on proximity and it takes absolutely ages. This maximum also applies to standing in aoes. If you walk far enough away from the hunt with lots of people there but still stand in the aoe, it doesn't affect you.Quote:
pushbacks, pull-ins and ESPECIALLY Rescue.
It's easy to notice in content as well with abilities like Shake It Off where it cycles through all the players to apply it one-by-one, especially in Seat of Sacrifice when you use Tank LB and the LB buff expires on one person before the snapshot.
But in these situations specifically, the loop tick seems like it's not for the server as a whole, but for the specific loop that is knocking everyone back or applying the cast's effect, as if they just added a giant pause in each loop cycle for KBs and other ability effects or their hardware is just overwhelmed in general.
But I still feel that this is something you mainly notice on things that affect a lot of people (like at hunts) and that, to me, the example of Sidewinder vs Bloodletter shows the world of difference there is when they simply don't do the animation thing.
When I play on lower pings, even abilities that seem moderately slow like Rampart are fast enough that double weaving is extremely easy and smooth.
I feel that if they would just address the animation delay issue and apply certain effects clientside (and remove them if the server decides it's wrong), then we could purely focus on how much of a remaining issue server delays are or whether there is a hardware improvement they can make.
I agree. They didn't have these animation delays (like my example of Sidewinder vs Bloodletter) because doing that interferes with gameplay and responsiveness. I can see why they would do it for a lore reason but every other game decides gameplay is more important.Quote:
Had you played any other MMOs, you'd have noticed how bizarrely poor FFXIV is in this regard.
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10-10-2023, 04:13 AMSilverquick
I actually agree with this,
Its starting to get very noticable these days. I'll be way outside of some AoE mechanic, and I die in a place where there's no way in hell it should have hit me but did.
I havent' ever noticed it quite this bad before, and it affects whole alliances too. -
10-10-2023, 04:27 AMJeeqbitWhere you die is not the same as where you got hit though. You usually get hit when the cast bar completes or the red aoe disappears, but the act of the server setting your character to a "dead" status is delayed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
By the time it sets it, you have definitely had time to run far away from it, but it doesn't change the fact that it snapshotted you as dead a few seconds earlier, and it goes through with executing that death regardless. Generally, you know your character is dead a few seconds before they actually die because of having seen yourself in the red circle when it disappear or when the cast completed.
It is certainly an odd system to not do it purely by animation, but it is just how it is and I don't think there is necessarily a right way to do it. It could snapshot via cast or via animation and that's a choice for a developer but I think that cast is more consistent while animation is more intuitive from playing other games. -
10-10-2023, 06:12 AMdasimBaaJesus christ what did i just read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
Just so you also understand this a teeny tiny bit.
Whenever you see people sliding across the floor without even turning properly yet, it's cause the server is trying to predict movement based on the last input.
This is why pvp movement is so messy, floaty and delayed. Because your client only gets the ACTUAL position every 0,3 seconds. Same with NPCS if a tank does a pull and you try to hit the mobs that run after him. You stand inside them, but it says they are not in range.
This has almost nothing to do with ping. Besides the fact i have a 20 ping im in Austria/Europe.
What bothers me about your response is the ignorance that you think you know what you're talking about. If what you said was true it would apply to all MMORPG's we play. So you're empirically just wrong. -
10-10-2023, 08:51 AMMuraBoyNo, my friendQuote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
We're talking about the tick rate of ffxiv servers... i mean, the rate of information being updated -
10-10-2023, 08:59 AMMuraBoy
By the way guys, there's an older thread about this ffxiv issue, if you wanna check: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ay-in-the-game
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10-10-2023, 09:20 AMSwordsmanYep, this is what essentially allows slidecasting to happen. A player that's casting can start moving on their screen, but the server will think the player is stationary because it still hasn't yet processed the information that the player has started moving.Quote:
Originally Posted by MuraBoy
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10-10-2023, 01:09 PMJeeqbitAlright but that assumes everything is single-threaded, which it very well could be. There would have to be a main server loop and that could refresh at any interval they want, but we can't see their code and to what extent they actually do operations side-by-side.Quote:
Originally Posted by MuraBoy
Using a single thread is something from prehistoric times. It's 2023 and it would be surprising if they didn't use multiple threads. But I can't see their code, so.
Because I do know what I'm talking about. There is a such thing as threads (where operations happen side-by-side) and we can't necessarily see whether they make use of them or how they have gone about any of this, but I made an extremely clear example of a loop in my previous posts that is visible at hunts in particular as well as an example that can be reproduced of the difference between Sidewinder and Bloodletter.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasimBaa
I remember ping affecting me in other games actually, but maybe that is when ping is 200-300 ms and maybe when internet wires weren't as good as they are now. I also agreed that other games don't suffer these animation delays.Quote:
If what you said was true it would apply to all MMORPG's we play. So you're empirically just wrong.
I don't think I've quite played at a ping that low so maybe it is harder for me to distinguish. I wasn't saying there isn't a refresh rate either. I just find the animation delay to be the more significant issue ie. difference between Sidewinder and Bloodletter.Quote:
This has almost nothing to do with ping. Besides the fact i have a 20 ping im in Austria/Europe.
All the other issues with snapshotting and movement, I just don't find to be a big deal to me at all and don't cause me any problems even at 200 ping.
Now let's say this is the case and it affects casts. Someone said they have to move by 75% of the cast bar. A refresh rate of 300 ms out of an average cast of 3 seconds (3000ms) is 10%, not 25%. You would have to have 450 ping to need to move by 75% of the cast bar. Even so, that's normally plenty of time with legacy movement.Quote:
Because your client only gets the ACTUAL position every 0,3 seconds.
Let's apply this logic to an interrupt. If a cast is 3 seconds (3000ms), you would have to use the interrupt by 90% of the cast bar in order to guarantee it registers, which isn't much of a problem. But that isn't the only factor, because there is ping (let's assume the ping is 200ms) and an animation delay (let's assume this is 300ms because I don't know the delay for this specifically). Now you have to use it by 75% of the cast bar. Which is tighter but still doable. -
10-10-2023, 03:13 PMdasimBaaI has little to do with anyone having problems with it, you can get used to it. I said that in my post. But why do i have to get used to something like that in 2023.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
And your example with the interupt is essentially how it works. Or have you ever seen someone kick at 90% and it still going off. And iirc interupt is near instant animation.
but it's a bit different still. There is likely systems and "queues" of sorts that optimize and try to compensate for ping related inputs likely by asking when your client sent this input independent and in relation to the refreshrate of other informations like AOE circles, Cast bars, position query etc. -
10-10-2023, 03:36 PMAco505While server ticks play a role, these delays are part of the ability used. Some abilities will register but only deal damage after a specific amount of time has passed. For instance, DRG's Disembowel takes a bit more than 1.5 seconds to actually deal its damage. Meaning that while the damage is registered on button press, if the target disappears or becomes invulnerable after it but before they take the actual hit, you will lose the damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iselion
If provoke takes some time to actually affect the target, it is simply because the delay between cast and effect is high enough. Some knockbacks push you immediately while others are delayed after the cast bar is finished.
There's also no specific rule as to why some abilities take longer than others. Animations don't seem to have anything to do with it, as actions such as Chaotic Spring take long to finish yet register their damage extremely quickly, whereas Wyrmwind Thrust's animation takes some time and its damage is dealt mostly in sync with it.
From what I've gathered from previous posts on the issue on Reddit, this game's tickrate is not much different from others'. The problem might lie elsewhere. In any case, I enjoy the fact that you react to cast bars and not animations and don't mind this at all. Cast bars are not always present and sometimes their damage doesn't snapshot when they're over, although this is rarer, so you may need to adapt to different situations.
I'd rather get the ping problem related to weaving oGCDs addressed first, as this would make the game feel and flow so much better. See here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...tions-normally.
I do agree that it is a bigger problem in PvP though and that it should have a specific solution for this mode at least, especially when it comes to Purify or things such as dying due to delays in the damage right after using an action like Sky High. -
10-10-2023, 10:07 PMSwordsmanDo we have any proof of that outside of screenshots of the usual third-party add-on? Posts on Reddit frequently reference the logs of a specific add-on as "proof" of a client sending out data at a certain rate, but that doesn't mean the server is accepting and registering the data at the same rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aco505
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10-10-2023, 11:41 PMArzalis
You can do a quick imperfect test to see how bad it is by playing the game side by side with two computers or clients.
Both of them have to communicate to the server first, then send the information to the other client. A little bit of latency here is normal and expected since we can't defy the laws of physics or anything. FFXIV is really bad though.
If it were just animations, they wouldn't be so far out of sync, they'd be relatively similar. You just wouldn't see the effect until it was supposed to happen. -
10-11-2023, 02:57 AMdasimBaaI don't understand why some people don't get this, it seems to me they have only played this mmorpg so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arzalis
What i'm trying to convey is that there is cheap games old ones like Atlantica Online from idk what year that have a faster refresh rate on peoples movements and positions. Without the sliding.
Don't even mention AAA Games which this one SHOULD feel like. -
10-11-2023, 03:08 AMMykll
I agree with a lot here. This issue has been so bad I haven't been able to finish casting Protect for YEARS!
And to think, this game used to be quite a bit worse. Back around ARR or Heavensward maybe, when people were still running the Titans a lot, I remember having this issue very bad. I would run out of a Titan hit, see someone behind me, I am out of the red bad, they are in it, yet I get hit and they don't. I remember around this time they did a pass that did improve this so I largely never see this anymore. However, sometimes I can get the slide casting, be just in the line inside or out of a bad red and get hit or not.
And yeah tank invulnerabilities are still the old delay supposed to be but better use it before you need it button. -
10-11-2023, 03:27 AMdasimBaaYES! When ARR first came out, Titan EX and Twintania used to be horrendous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mykll
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10-11-2023, 05:06 AMSwordsmanYep, there's a youtube video that shows the player doing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hToWKu79Jm0Quote:
Originally Posted by Arzalis
One characters jump animation on one computer is already complete by the time the 2nd computer even sees that character start its jump animation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mykll
I remember this. SE actually had to increase the server update rate so players could complete these trials. Before the servers were updated you could be out of the AOE for around two seconds and still get knocked off the platform.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasimBaa
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10-11-2023, 05:52 AMIselionYou're missing my point. I don't mind it for things like melee attacks because the number feedback isn't as immediately important pertaining to the gameplay as, say, responsiveness of aggro takeovers, movement mechanics, death saves and heals are. Features and abilities of mechanical import SHOULD be prioritized when they happen. When's the last time you played tank in a dungeon and you had to physically stop in a pack to AoE just to make sure you 1. Actually hit everything and 2. That every mob actually follows you? And speaking of tanks, we've also standardized provoking during casts of tankbusters and not between instant attacks of hard content because provoke is just not reliable enough to trust it. These things should not happen in one of the top MMOs in 2023.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aco505
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10-11-2023, 07:12 AMJeeqbitIt's just that if, as calculated, we only have 90% of the cast bar to exit a red circle, then it raises the question of why someone has not moved by 90% of the cast bar. Greed? Not using swiftcast? Not using gapclosers, teleports or elusive jumps? Not playing on a DC that is closest?Quote:
Originally Posted by dasimBaa
By all means, they could increase the check or processing rates, but I think it's a fair question to ask why someone is waiting so long to do a mechanic in the first place.
It's a fair question to ask if, assuming the refresh rate allows you to have 100% of the cast time to do a mechanic, then what is that extra 10% of time going to do for you if it's already taking you 90% of it to do the mechanic? And will the other factors, such as ping, cause you to still need to do it by 90% of the cast and still not have enough time?
Yes and it is what I experience, particularly with the fast interruptable casts in ARR that are a real struggle to interrupt in time. But part of that is ARR design and another part of it is most likely my own self-inflicted problem of having a higher ping.Quote:
And your example with the interupt is essentially how it works.
Generally never if I time the AoE correctly to meet them as I sprint through them (and again this is with a high ping). The only time I have a problem like that is if the DPS or healer pulls them before me causing the timing to be different of when I pass through them, but this is extremely rare. To be fair, I've been doing this for years so I'm used to it and have the timing perfect and a lot of tanks probably don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iselion
The only other time I have this issue is if my aoe did not fully clip one or more of the enemies and I have to wait for a second GCD, but again this is rare and there are often abilities I can weave so I can continue on, or click the ones I missed in the enemy list and provoke/ranged attack them. Usually an issue like that only happens if I just woke up and was multitasking.
That isn't why. There were many tankbusters in the past where, once the cast completes, the very next hit (often an auto-attack or second TB) one-shots the tank if it's still on them, so it has to be provoked off them before the cast completes.Quote:
we've also standardized provoking during casts of tankbusters and not between instant attacks of hard content because provoke is just not reliable enough to trust it.
This is not the case for all tank busters. There are tank busters where it is safe to provoke at the end of the cast or where they will survive a hit or two at the end of the cast, but still need it provoked off them.
To be honest, I've even provoked at 75% of the cast before so I can weave something else and it's been fine, but doing it at the start if possible is ideal because then the other tank can shirk near the end of the cast and it's a really smooth transition.
That is definitely something I observed in other games that I ran two clients of, just because on one client the movement begins immediately but by the time that information reaches the server and then is sent out to nearby clients, it's been quite a while unless you both live next to the server.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordsman
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10-11-2023, 07:26 AMNeoyoshi
Wow, imagine experience lag in a mmorpg, and then any level of lag calls for a some type of extreme measures to circumvent something that- is always going to happen no matter how good the tech is on all sides, because... and i cannot stress this enough, the internet- i don't know... LAGS SOMETIMES.