Do people not care enough or does the game do a bad job at teaching?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

There should be a setting to disable telegraphs for tankbusters, stack markers, aoe markers, floor telegraphs and a lot of other things.

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Then there will be that time you forget the fight in a party finder instance, cause a wipe and get kicked because you stood in the bad stuff. (I'm assuming you are serious with that line.)

Stuff like this is why I want a "Hall of the intermediate" that literally walks you through how a class functions at varying levels. It would really help people learn a basic use of their class but also be a great refresher if you haven't played a class in a while.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Then there will be that time you forget the fight in a party finder instance, cause a wipe and get kicked because you stood in the bad stuff. (I'm assuming you are serious with that line.)

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Doubt it. People manage that with telegraphs without getting kicked.

The game teaches you enough. Good players didn't play a different game to learn this game. They played this one.

It's 100% on the bad player. No one should be making excuses for stupid, lazy, self centered people who choose to waste other people's time.

The core problem is SE *wants* lazy people to p[l]ay the game. So any solution trying to make lazy people do stuff isn't an option, no matter how it is implemented. So what are the possibilities?

Instead of trying to "fix" lazy people, let's try to reward the other.

• First task is to identify those people, for this a ranking system needs to be put in place. Of course this stays anonymous. TBH no idea how to do that. For DPS it's easy, for tank and heal, a little bit less.
• Second task is to adapt the rewards. The more you perform in the instance, the more reward you get. This stays anonymous as well of course. And should be scaled on an absolute scale (aka your performance vs the average performance of people) not relative to the other in the instance.
• The reward should not be displayable (i.e. no glamour reward) because lazy people will have the audacity to say : "I cannot have this, this is not fair!". This could be more tomestone, or a new currency that allows quicker progression (i.e 50 of them allows you to buy a current content HL item)

Most people just don't care. Personal opinion, but I think the majority of players are capable of performing well in most duties in this game minus ex+. They simply choose not to.

The game does a very thorough job of explaining things to people. In fact it's so thorough that I actually find tutorials like the RPR/SGE ones slow and boring.

The former. 95% of the game's content doesn't give you a reason to give a shit. Even in the more challenging moments, you can just get carried by 1 person in your team who knows what they're doing. So yeah, people don't care because they don't have to care. Saying the game does a bad job of teaching, when all they've done is streamline combat to make it easier for people (who never gave a shit anyway) to grasp, is sort of... like.. what more do you want them to do, realistically? Maybe expand the hall of the novice or make it mandatory before entering your first dungeon? Okay. After that, idk. Outside of a few esoteric DPS jobs, most just follow a 123 setup, maybe have a gauge build/spend minigame, and a 2 minute buff with some ogcds you press when they're off cd. Maybe the game could have a mandatory training room going into these basics? I guess that could help newbies.

I do think that for DPS especially, there's really no way for you to know that you're bad unless someone has the balls to tell you. At least on a healer or a tank, if you suck people will die and you'll probably have a hard time clearing, but it's real easy to coast for a long time as a bad dps; you could literally do it wrong all the way to level 90 and just have no idea how hard you're jobbing. In Vindictus, at the end of every round, they'd tell you how much damage the top dps contributed and how much you contributed. This was shared as percentages iirc. You didn't even see everyone's numbers. Just, "here's what the best guy in your group did, and here's you." And from that alone, you can kind of gauge like... am I even with my team? Am I being carried? Is there something else I should be paying attention to? But in XIV, there's legit nada and if that falls into the category of the game being a poor teacher, then yeah the game's a fucking terrible teacher.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

The game does a very thorough job of explaining things to people.

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It really honestly does not. You are fed the actions and are free to read the tooltips. You get a brief explanation of your gauge when unlocking it. That's it.

This game doesn't want us to know how often DoTs tick and for how much or what crit and DH actually do or what action weaving is and how it relates to animation locks. Concepts such as "but how much is Aero worth compared to a Stone cast" should not eb relegated to the realm of esoteric third source research.

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Originally Posted by WantlessYoYo

(Cross posting this from Reddit)
This will prolly look more like a TFDF post rather than a debate one but will try my best to lead it the other way


For the past few months since i became a mentor i've been doing said roulette, with the number being at 850 at the moment, and with it i've seen pretty much all cases, with the last one happening a moment ago being the one who made me wonder.

This was a SAM, tower of Zot, multiple jobs at 90 already who basically didn't knew anything about their Iajutsu, noticed when pulls were taking longer than normal and only saw 1 of the buffs on their chars and never a Tenka Goken(SAM AOE Iajutsu) and later on a midare

Then i proceed to take like 5 minutes explaining everything to said person, lucky enough the other 2 on the party didn't bother

My first train of thought was, of course, "C'mon man people don't bother to even look a guide", along the multiple Cure 1 healers and other things that should be considered basics at higher dungeon levels

But then after said dungeon i thought as well and as dumb as it sounds, does the SAM quest ever requires you to do said skill even once?

We're talking about in order to clear the whole thing a person could just smash 2 keyslike this one was doing and still make it through

Main questions i want to ask and kinda of a TLDR

-Main one of the post, do you think is a people problem for not caring enough or from the game for not being more exigent on content?

-As a bonus and again maybe will be more of a TFDF thing, tell me if you've encountered a similar experience

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I feel the real issue is some people play FFXIV as a game while other take it more seriously. The players who take FFXIV more seriously are annoyed by the lack of effort by the very casual.

Here's the thing, you are never going to change the super casual. They view the MMO in a totally different light than you. By you, I mean the players who want to play their jobs well.

The super casual see FFXIV in the same light as an arcade game. They just go through the game, looking at the content, and pressing buttons. That's how they enjoy the MMO. They don't want to do better because they focus their energies elsewhere.

It's not a "problem." It's just the way things are and it's been going on since the very first games were created. For every chess player attempting to be a grandmaster, there are a hundred who just play chess as a game.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

It really honestly does not. You are fed the actions and are free to read the tooltips. You get a brief explanation of your gauge when unlocking it. That's it.

This game doesn't want us to know how often DoTs tick and for how much or what crit and DH actually do or what action weaving is and how it relates to animation locks. Concepts such as "but how much is Aero worth compared to a Stone cast" should not eb relegated to the realm of esoteric third source research.

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I mean okay, sure, but also that's not even relevant information for playing proficiently through the MSQ duties. The game gives you everything you need to succeed at the basic MSQ.

This is to say that the bar is incredibly low, and that the casuals of this game don't care enough to even reach the lowest necessary standards.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

This game doesn't want us to know how often DoTs tick and for how much or what crit and DH actually do or what action weaving is and how it relates to animation locks. Concepts such as "but how much is Aero worth compared to a Stone cast" should not eb relegated to the realm of esoteric third source research.

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You can see how often DoTs tick if you watch the flytext damage happening on the target, or apply a heal regen to yourself. For weaving, oGCDs are distinguished by the word "Ability" and GCDs by "Spell" or "Weaponskill" and don't show as being unusable after pressing a GCD. Knowing what Crit and DH do in detail isn't particularly necessary because you can just stack it based on the description alone and assume it increases damage.

They could have some sort of advanced tutorial to explain the rotation and all of these concepts, but it's not like it's impossible to figure out on your own and it's especially not if this isn't your first MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Here's the thing, you are never going to change the super casual. They view the MMO in a totally different light than you. By you, I mean the players who want to play their jobs well.

It's not a "problem." It's just the way things are and it's been going on since the very first games were created. For every chess player attempting to be a grandmaster, there are a hundred who just play chess as a game.

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This is the truth and I am content with it. Would it even be any fun if people weren't dying in dungeons so that I have to rescue them and work around them? Then I would never have to interrupt my broil for so much as a Rescue or have to figure out how to Broil while saving people.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

I mean okay, sure, but also that's not even relevant information for playing proficiently through the MSQ duties. The game gives you everything you need to succeed at the basic MSQ.

This is to say that the bar is incredibly low, and that the casuals of this game don't care enough to even reach the lowest necessary standards.

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It's so low as a dps you can afk easily and pass by the effort of other players.

Both. Hall of the novice was a decent idea but it really needed expanded upon (Hall of the Intermediate, Hall of the expert) to show the finer points of your role (GDC optimization, movement, etc etc)

But since the game never teaches players that we have people who don't understand that AoE is a thing or that they need to actually upgrade their gear in 10 levels.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

You can see how often DoTs tick if you watch the flytext damage happening on the target, or apply a heal regen to yourself. For weaving, oGCDs are distinguished by the word "Ability" and GCDs by "Spell" or "Weaponskill" and don't show as being unusable after pressing a GCD. Knowing what Crit and DH do in detail isn't particularly necessary because you can just stack it based on the description alone and assume it increases damage.

They could have some sort of advanced tutorial to explain the rotation and all of these concepts, but it's not like it's impossible to figure out on your own and it's especially not if this isn't your first MMORPG.

This is the truth and I am content with it. Would it even be any fun if people weren't dying in dungeons so that I have to rescue them and work around them? Then I would never have to interrupt my broil for so much as a Rescue or have to figure out how to Broil while saving people.

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/chuckle

C'mon, admit it. You like it when things go off the rails. It gives you something to do.

Smooth runs are boring! Give me an Alliance run where everyone in my group, but me and the tank, dies to an avoidable cleave, and I'm playing as a red mage instead of a healer.

That's where the real fun is! As Richard says, "Challenge accepted."

LFG Slaughter Your World

The game does a bad job with tutorials using an antiquated text box instead of having you interact with the game or actually showing you things in the game, hall of the novice is woefully out of date and nothing forces you to do it, there is no reason to get better at the game as pretty much everything outside of 8 person content is soloable and not difficult, and SE shows no will or inclination to making the game better for lower level players or helping them learn the absolute basics of the game.

I want them to turn the tutorials into an interactive thing where it has you actually click through the menus in the game to show you where things are instead of having an easily ignored or even not noticed pop up wall of text. I want them to have a tutorial scripted fight towards the beginning that shows you how combos work, how to read tooltips, GCDs vs oGCDs, etc during a real combat situation. Lastly I think it's been said multiple times but I want the game to have a more in depth, up to date hall of the novice for new players to have to go through before Satasha so they can learn more of the basic mechanics of the game. You can even integrate it into one or two fights instead of having a bunch of random fights that teach one thing.

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Originally Posted by Ghutts

I just recently came back to FFXIV after almost 4 years. I was completely lost for a day or two but eventually found my groove again. And I was a little hesitant to queue for dungeons because I play Tank and I don't want to let the Party down by screwing up and causing us to fail. It's just a game but I take my party responsibilities very serious so that everyone can have the most fun possible.
My good friend LOVED this game and everything he owned was FF themed. His phone, his car, his room...he loved this game. He passed a few years ago which is one of the reasons I stopped playing. But his love of this game is also why I decided to start playing again. I miss him and I'm hoping he would approve of me getting back into FFXIV and having fun. (there is a reason I'm bringing him up)
During one of my first dungeons he was giving me advice and telling me what it was I doing wrong, and how best to change my tactics to suit playing a Tank and keep the party alive. After wards I apologized for being so inept, but he laughed and said not to worry about it because at least I listened to advice and learned from my failures. Then he mentioned that part of the problem with partying up with randoms is that you'll find people that are leveling their alternate characters and don't really care about the class and so they haven't learned how to utilize it to their advantage. And he also admitted that it's difficult to "help" other players because giving advice can be interpreted as being condescending. Which of course people get stubborn about and don't listen and then nothing changes and they continue to play poorly.
To summarize I think it could be a little of both. People not understanding their job, and people not caring about it. Luckily there are some really helpful people in FFXIV and they want others to do well and have fun. So don't get too disheartened. I promise some of us will listen and learn so that we can contribute to having a blast.

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Bless you good sir.

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Originally Posted by WantlessYoYo

-Main one of the post, do you think is a people problem for not caring enough or from the game for not being more exigent on content?
-As a bonus and again maybe will be more of a TFDF thing, tell me if you've encountered a similar experience

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Square encouraged players to be careless and lazy.
Regardless of the content, you'll often meet long time players (not new) who have not learned any fundamentals. The spread-marker-sprout meme? is just the tip of the iceberg. Square failed to create urgency for players to learn the basics cause that's not required for most content. The bar is set at " faceroll keyboard and try not to die ".

XIV suffers from Encouraged Casualism
Square having created an MMO environment where everything comes by easy, conditioning players to not be resilient. This results in players being allergic to any amount of difficulty or hardship... Which is ironic considering the Endwalker story mentioning something about overcoming adversity. Players rather have the already easy cakewalk made even easier since there's zero incentive to truly master anything. And it's largely Square's fault for creating this environment.

The worst example for me was helping a P5S party
Party ignored using mitigation skills. No Addle/Feint/Reprisal. With the party having low ilvl? The first raidwide killed the party and they started blaming the random SGE. And the SGE (bless his heart) has no idea that mitigation skills are a thing, made him say sorry for something that's not truly entirely his fault.

Most of FFXIV content is so casual? that Reading Tooltips? sets the difficulty to high! Although ironic? cause if players can get through MSQ? then surely they can read a few tooltips you'd think... Then again? most of it is not my clear. I'll just continue to help parties. But, what you get to see borders both depressive to see and simultaneously towards comedic skits for youtube shorts.

What I want is Tanks to just start using their Tankstances more. From Troia, to Euphrosyne adds, Endsinger 2nd tankbuster, P7S second auto attacks... like will you manage your enmity so I don't tank it as a Samurai it's all I ask... that's all I wish for please... well that and Kaiten returning... please mhm.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

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Mate I don't know if the best way to explain a mechanic is "watch the flyby text with a cronometer and figure it out I guess"

As for GCD and oGCD, I challenge you to find any player who, without ever lookingat an outside resource, figures out which casts or skills leave space for weaving or doubleweaving and manages to never incorrectly clip their GCDs.

Knowing what Crit and DH do and how they scale is necessary thanks to tiering, and to figure out for yourself, something you seem to be a fan of, stats weighing. It's an optimization to be sure, but more information that a palyer could choose to ignore is better than zero information a player needs to retrieve from an external party that ran combat log analysis on a targert dummy for hours to figure out. Your advice about jsut assumingthings also would lead to people just assuming each point of determination increases damage by little, and putting literally useless points in it because each tier is so far apart.

Anyways.

Our point is not that it's impossible to figure out these things, you can... if you want. The point of this thread is that you'd never need to, because if you are happy being a gigacasual that does the MSQ and then roulettes for 8 months, there is no failure state for severely underplaying your class. No songs BRD, healer partner no tech step DNC, and freecure fishers all get carried easily through any trial and dungeon in the MSQ. It's 100% on the game for never giving them the stimulus to at least read their damn tooltips - by forcing failure upon them.

Since we commented on DNC, it also doesn't help that some common misinformation exists, and one that frustrates me to no end as a DNC main is "Dance Partner doesn't stack", because that's misleading, said at face value, it implies that DNC shouldn't partner each other, because they would override each other's buffs, in reality, Standard Step will apply two distinct but mechanically *and* visually identical buffs, one "in" buff on yourself and an "out" buff on your Dance Partner, an "out" buff and an "in" buff stack just fine, but two "out" buffs will override each other.

In practical terms, it look like this:

4-man dungeon, two DNC, each DNC applies Closed Position to the other, upon executing Standard Step, each DNC will receive a Standard Step buff, keeping two identical buffs on their buff bars, totalling for 10%(!!!) damage boost for each DNC.

4-man dungeon, two DNC, for some Azeyma-forsaken reason, both DNC apply Closed Position to the Tank, upon executing Standard Step, the Tank will only be able to keep one buff, with the most recent buff always overriding the existing buff, each DNC plus the Tank will only receive 5% damage boost from this.

And this is all insanely unintuitive, I can hear the trumpets of angels signifying a new miracle any time I don't have to explain this in a dungeon, because the myth of "DNC should never partner each other" gets perpetuated a lot, which means that even if somebody did their due diligence and looked around for information, they might still have this wrong! Its even hard to explain, and half the time I get the point across faster by just using Standard Step and telling them to look at their buff bar to see two buffs, and that's if they listen at all...

"Do people not care enough or does the game do a bad job at teaching?"

Neither, job design is terrible....& that translates to the people who are playing them.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

Our point is not that it's impossible to figure out these things, you can... if you want. The point of this thread is that you'd never need to, because if you are happy being a gigacasual that does the MSQ and then roulettes for 8 months, there is no failure state for severely underplaying your class. No songs BRD, healer partner no tech step DNC, and freecure fishers all get carried easily through any trial and dungeon in the MSQ. It's 100% on the game for never giving them the stimulus to at least read their damn tooltips - by forcing failure upon them.

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The failure is forced on them when and if they attempt harder content. A gigacasual hops into EX and all of a sudden finds themselves on a completely different playground, and this still isn't anywhere close to the game's most difficult content. When you boil down posts such as yours, it is very easy to discern that you want more difficult content to be forced onto the casuals. What happens then is you will really have a problem on your hands because the content you can now sleep through can't be cleared.

Players who want to learn will do so on their own accord. And the players that want to learn typically want to attempt more difficult content. Even for something like EX, the concepts behind things like Crit/DH and optimization of skills still aren't that important because in order to clear content at this level, what is more important is group coordination and understanding mechanics along with not failing them. Players who want to go above and beyond will make the effort to understand PvE inside and out.

For the casuals, the game only needs the players to understand how the game is played. Things like MSQ progression, job roles, light parties require 4 players comprised of tank, healer, and 2 DPS. Full parties are double of each; some duties require a min ilevel, hotbar/crossbar/hotkey allocation, abilities/spells/weapon skills, etc. There are tooltips for nearly everything, and the menu also has a help log. Whether or not a casual players actually looks at it is irrelevant. These tools are still available to them nonetheless. Content lower than EX and the very occasional NM duty where the devs will ramp up the difficulty a bit shouldn't matter much to you. If you want more challenging content where players are required to know more and try harder, I suggest sticking to more difficult duties.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

SE shows no will or inclination to making the game better for lower level players or helping them learn the absolute basics of the game.

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It's fine to want more but as far as mechanics this isn't true at all anymore. The revamps of MSQ dungeons and solo instances for Duty Support are doing a lot for introducing basics. For instance, I was just in Keeper and you know what Middy has now? An Akh Morn stack attack.

And the RPR quest has an NPC who gives you tips on how to use your skills together. Maybe we could see that integrated in the early game at some point. But at least they are thinking about and considering these ideas and what the game to do to help.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

The game teaches you enough. Good players didn't play a different game to learn this game. They played this one.

It's 100% on the bad player. No one should be making excuses for stupid, lazy, self centered people who choose to waste other people's time.

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This is where i always loved the Japanese mentality towards the game.

You put your best effort in, or you are letting everyone else down.
Nobody over there wants to be the weak link, because the weak link gets removed.

People that do not want to learn to play, should be subject to only playing with duty support.

The ToS actually has a clause that refers to 'lethargic players' and it is a violation of the ToS to not play to the best of your abilities.
https://i.postimg.cc/wvd83X07/image-...-163933732.png

So if you ever see that 'Ultimate Legend' player spamming regen and nothing else, Report them.
If you ever see that healer not doing DPS, Report them.
If you see a tank refusing to use mits, Report them.

It is a bannable offence to be lazy.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

You can see how often DoTs tick if you watch the flytext damage happening on the target, or apply a heal regen to yourself. For weaving, oGCDs are distinguished by the word "Ability" and GCDs by "Spell" or "Weaponskill" and don't show as being unusable after pressing a GCD. Knowing what Crit and DH do in detail isn't particularly necessary because you can just stack it based on the description alone and assume it increases damage.

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None of that solves the issue of the game trying it's best to obfuscate information.

How much % crit is 2250? What is my critical damage modifier?
How much % damage does Determination give me? How much does Tenacity give me and how much mitigation?
How much extra damage does Direct Hit actually give me and what is the % proc chance on it?

The game wants you to decide what to prioritize between all these different stats but can't even be bothered to give you concrete information on what they do, opting instead to use vague descriptions that tell you absolutely nothing.


You say it doesn't matter because they all increase your damage somehow, but those stats aren't all equal and that should be made clear to the player.
Whether they can be bothered to use that information is up to the individual, but the game should absolutely give you enough concrete information to make an educated decision yourself, without having to look it up on third party sites.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

So if you ever see that 'Ultimate Legend' player spamming regen and nothing else, Report them.
If you ever see that healer not doing DPS, Report them.
If you see a tank refusing to use mits, Report them.

It is a bannable offence to be lazy.

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You are going to want to be able to prove ill intent or you are just going to get on the bad side of GMs if you make too many reports based on vibes.
GMs are not going to start giving out punishments for just playing the game "badly".

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Originally Posted by Ayche

You are going to want to be able to prove ill intent or you are just going to get on the bad side of GMs if you make too many reports based on vibes.
GMs are not going to start giving out punishments for just playing the game "badly".

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they have a cheat report button now. so i imagine someone would review that type of report of someone breaking that particular ToS that other perosn pointed out here.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Most people just don't care. Personal opinion, but I think the majority of players are capable of performing well in most duties in this game minus ex+. They simply choose not to.

The game does a very thorough job of explaining things to people. In fact it's so thorough that I actually find tutorials like the RPR/SGE ones slow and boring.

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I actually fit this in a way. My performance in any game is dependent on what the game expects of me in order to win.

A game can have all these advanced moves that could be really powerful but if I can finish the game without them, that's what I will most likely do.

In a multi-player game like this on however, I personally try to have a good performance level all the time no matter what the situation.

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Originally Posted by MonsutaMan

"Do people not care enough or does the game do a bad job at teaching?"

Neither, job design is terrible....& that translates to the people who are playing them.

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If you are not pressing your actions that's not a job design issue, that's a you issue

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Originally Posted by Gemina

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While I mostly agree with your points, I'm not a fan of the idea that the gigacasuals should be encouraged to sleep through and never learn through main quest duties only to hit a wall running when they queue their first EX. Personally I think this exacerbates the myth there's this great gulf between "casuals" and "hardcore" players instead of encouraging growth and a mutual enjoyement of the hobby.

I disagree that bringing the speedbumps up a bit in casual content would make it unclearable by casuals. It would make them try a little harder during the MSQ, sure. But making it by design content you can sleep through as long as you understand that the tank gets aggro, actions come in 1-2-3 sets and you dodge telegraphs is far too low as an entry barrier.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

This is where i always loved the Japanese mentality towards the game.

You put your best effort in, or you are letting everyone else down.
Nobody over there wants to be the weak link, because the weak link gets removed.

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I find this pretty ironic because the nature of the MS duties now discourages this mentality, and instead encourages no one being made to be "the weak link" because the group as a whole is guaranteed a clear, and all the impact a bad player has is to make it take just a bit longer. Or to put it another way, if it's true Japanese mentality is so eager to weed out weak links, the game discourages them from spotting one.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

So if you ever see that 'Ultimate Legend' player spamming regen and nothing else, Report them.
If you ever see that healer not doing DPS, Report them.
If you see a tank refusing to use mits, Report them.

It is a bannable offence to be lazy.

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Thats it! You have a VulnStack - you banned!

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

If you are not pressing your actions that's not a job design issue, that's a you issue

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It is partially a job issue. Not to the extend that you have an active uptime of like 20%, as some players do, but you end up dying to stupid things and might end up with regular mistakes, because if the jobs are utterly unengaging to play you just zone out and mindlessly press buttons by muscle memory alone.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

It is partially a job issue. Not to the extend that you have an active uptime of like 20%, as some players do, but you end up dying to stupid things and might end up with regular mistakes, because if the jobs are utterly unengaging to play you just zone out and mindlessly press buttons by muscle memory alone.

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Sorry, but that sounds like an excuse, if the job is unengaging enough that you can't keep yourself from making dumb mistakes or falling asleep at the wheel for 10 whole minutes, and yet keep queueing for duties, that's even more of a you issue. And the kind of mentality that leads to no songs BRD because it's just a game bro, or I don't care bro.

Sorry if this feels all over the place.
One thing I've been wondering about this issue is if it's effected by what is perceived as "the end game" by someone that is in an earlier expansion. I started in HW and I recall not only having more actions than people now have but also things being in general more difficult. Part of that is unfamiliarity and another is the game just functioned different, but that slight challenge was always there and is completely lacking now. As more expansions came out and the community progressed through them they hit the various "speed bumps" in that content as it was released. If someone starts now, they have to get through all of that content in order to finish the MSQ. If a sprout ran into a speed bump early, what would that communicate to them about what to expect going forward. Especially if there are 50+ more levels of content to get through.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

Sorry, but that sounds like an excuse, if the job is unengaging enough that you can't keep yourself from making dumb mistakes or falling asleep at the wheel for 10 whole minutes, and yet keep queueing for duties, that's even more of a you issue. And the kind of mentality that leads to no songs BRD because it's just a game bro, or I don't care bro.

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Not really, had it happen even in savage on jobs that have just been reduced to mindless button mashing by design. When you do 1-2-4-1-2-3-Fell Cleave for the 50000th time because that's now the peak of warrior gameplay you just start finding pretty much anything more interesting...and then you miss which number you are on during P4S Finale.
And while I haven't played EW summoner in any savage fight I can absolutely imagine the same happening on that job, now that a majority of your gameplay consists of pressing the same 3 buttons.

Obviously this is not a thing that happens during prog, but we're at the point where certain jobs get their engagement only from the content you're doing with them and that usually doesn't last all that long.

The game teaches you? What does it teach you outside of "Don't stand in AoEs, Click the item on the wall to stop enemies from spawning(which I can't even think of a dungeon that uses that mechanic), and attack the same target as your tank"?

The game does a shit job at teaching anyone anything. But I can't really blame SE for that, it's a common thing in all MMORPGs.

Well... I just had a DNC in my party who didn't pick a dance partner at all at level 70, which made me think of this thread. What's the excuse this time? The game didn't force him to read and quiz him about his tooltips? I guess Yoshi-P needs to make a Hall of the Novice Reader to fix the amount of stupid going around.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

While I mostly agree with your points, I'm not a fan of the idea that the gigacasuals should be encouraged to sleep through and never learn through main quest duties only to hit a wall running when they queue their first EX. Personally I think this exacerbates the myth there's this great gulf between "casuals" and "hardcore" players instead of encouraging growth and a mutual enjoyement of the hobby.

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The encouragement is there starting at the EX level. There is plenty of incentive to participate in these duties through the rewards they give. But the biggest incentive is the thrill of battle. Starting here, players can no longer skate by with low effort. Yet this demand is too great for casual content and players.

I understand your point though, and I also agree to a certain extent that casual content can be too easy. But this is mostly due to ilv bloat inside duties. Casual content should never be less difficult than its release day, and the dev team should still find ways to challenge players through its mechanics.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

People that do not want to learn to play, should be subject to only playing with duty support.

The ToS actually has a clause that refers to 'lethargic players' and it is a violation of the ToS to not play to the best of your abilities.

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"Best of their ability" =/= up to your standards. This is also exactly why Yoshi will never allow an in game parser. This mindset is fine for savage and up. Maybe EX. For anything below it absolutely is not.

Duty support is exactly that: Support. It is not a means to service your annoyance with casuals by removing them from normal duties. Again. If you want challenge and effort, then I strongly suggest going into content EX and above.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Well... I just had a DNC in my party who didn't pick a dance partner at all at level 70, which made me think of this thread. What's the excuse this time? The game didn't force him to read and quiz him about his tooltips? I guess Yoshi-P needs to make a Hall of the Novice Reader to fix the amount of stupid going around.

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Evidently, your DNC ignored the level 60 starting quest, where a dance partner is explicitly required to move on in the dance battle on the beach. That's on the player. Period.

I think there are a lot of people who think themselves incredibly skilled that would never make it out of Greater Faydark.