Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Actually that's more what your phrasing of the question is doing, painting a skewed outcome unrealistic of this game in order to reflect the outcome you want to see. Let's just be honest about it. No reason to hide that.
EDIT: Actually, never mind. You're right, it's important that we use unrealistic extremes that no one is actually asking for in order to understand what players want and to what lengths, so I propose we add a 5th question:
5. Would you stop playing healer if every healer had no DPS buttons at all and were provided a trust AI to complete MSQ instance battles (all content otherwise remains the same, outgoing damage included). In order to complete any quests that ask you defeat an enemy, you'll need to join a party with at least 1 tank or DPS, or switch to a tank or DPS job.
Healer Survey:
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03-21-2023, 06:12 AMty_taurus
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03-21-2023, 06:50 AMSebazyNo not really. The problem is how vague the definition of a dps rotation is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Is it simply 1-2-3? That solves little and I suspect few people will support it irrespective of if they want more or less healer DPS engagement.
Or when you say 'DPS rotation on par with a DPS job', does that mean all the extra goodies that comes with said core rotation? That would be a much bigger change, but as I mentioned in my response, simply dunking a full DPS kit on a healer flat out isn't realistic and anyone with any sense is going to see that. It would just be far too many hotkeys to be manageable and if it doesn't integrate with our existing kit, it's just going to be a disjointed mess.
However, a tightly integrated DPS rotation kit that empowers and drives our healing throughput at the same time? Hell yeah sign me up for that. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Warhammer Online's Warrior Priest class was perhaps the finest MMO healer ever penned and it absolutely burns me that SE haven't had the initiative to copy that concept and adapt it to FFXIV. It would solve the lack of healer engagement in casual content. -
03-21-2023, 07:10 AMAllegorI know that's the joke but reading that question filled me with....disgust and anxiety, for lack of a better word. Please don't say such things again lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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03-21-2023, 09:59 AMRenathras/sighQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Actually, the one thing I regret in the questions is using your wording for question 3. I don't think there should be a "would you stop playing healer if..." question, since things have to be PRETTY extreme to get people to stop playing entirely. Very few people will say that, but we shouldn't be asking, essentially "what would make you quit the game". We should be asking players "what do you want" not "what will you tolerate".
I know your argument that you want proven is that people will TOLERATE it, as if that's a good thing, but it really isn't. It shouldn't be a matter of seeing how far we can push and abuse players and them not quit. We should be seeing what they actually want.
We probably could ask the question "Would you stop playing Healer if every Healer had the same rotations they have right now". That's not an extreme position. "Would you stop playing Healer if every Healer had only one damage ability", That's the extreme position. "no DPS at all and did trust AI for MSQ"? That's your equivalent to a DPS rotation? Good god, man! Get some perspective.
Strictly speaking, it means "like any of the DPS Jobs". Granted, there's some spread there, but generally we'd be talking 8+ buttons focused on damage that need to be used in a fairly set order to do good damage. SMN is the low end of that, and has a rotation somewhat equivalent in overall complexity to Tank rotations. Some people even have said this, and "Tank or SMN rotation" is something people tend to be saying that they wouldn't mind WHILE saying they don't want a DPS Job level rotation. So people seem to get the point and be answering with "I wouldn't want THAT, but I would want THIS" which is what I'm actually looking at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I do think it's funny how many people point to SMN as being like the Tanks, but at least people seem to understand the spirit of the question and are answering it.
If someone's saying "I don't want a DPS Job rotation but I want a Tank level rotation", I'm marking them down for Tank level rotation.
I've even pointed out (so I won't yet again) the 6 categories answers are falling into.
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In Ty's case, specifically, I think it was to generate a specific answer. He wants a question as I said above to be "what will you tolerate" not "what do you want", which is the reason for his original question wording. I'm much more interested in what people want, but the question exists for what will they tolerate.
Moreover, question 3 already achieves this purpose. If the claim truly is "just a few more damage buttons", then that's covered under question 3. Note I didn't include "no damage buttons", "fewer damage buttons", or "the same amount of damage buttons as today", either. So I'm not picking favorites.
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As for your example, I've never played Warhammer Online, but I vaguely remember the RIFT Chloromancer being somewhat fun, though I never did high end content with it. I think that's how SGE should have been designed. Despite people saying how the Tanks all have the same playstyle, most people recognize that GNB is more involved than the other three with a lot of extra DPS rotational abilities. Admittedly, more when it came out (the Gnashing Fang combo used too be 3 separate buttons, for example), but the idea seemed to be a fairly obvious "Make a Melee DPS, remove a few of the extra oGCDs we'd have on a DPS and put Tank oGCDs in their place." I feel like, at one point in development, they were probably thinking about something like that for SGE but changed their mind part-way through. Abilities like Soteria and to a point Pepsis and Zoe and Krasis make more sense when you're thinking from the perspective of "We'll be doing a DPS rotation and just have some Healer oGCDs and backup GCD heals in case of emergencies."
At some point, it seems like they decided to back off of so much reliance on Kardia and a damage rotation and slim it down, with Toxicon and Plegma being vestigial hints at something else that once was.
FFXIV's combat system is too rigid is the problem.
They could give SGE a BLM rotation with just Kardia splash healing and some oGCD supplemental heals but balance it to do the same damage as WHM, and the playerbase would have a conniption. FFXIV's combat system and balance is finely enough tuned (not perfectly balanced - as all things... - but still pretty finely balanced compared to something like WoW) and works under fairly tight Enrage checks (in entry level gear) and stuff, so they run into the problem that they can't allow Healers that put in "more work" to do more damage, but then if they put in a Healer Job that feels like it has to work harder for the same outcome, fewer people play it (this is being cited a lot in the survey about why people don't play AST over WHM), and the people playing it start demanding more damage output because they're doing more work/effort (even if they literally asked to be given that "more work" to do), so SE is damned if they do and damned if they don't.
It's why I think Misshapen Chair hit the nail on the head in his video where he said people need to just accept that the reward for doing "more work" is you "have fun and aren't bored to tears", and to "stop crying about a whole 2% dps variance". And yet the players will do so, and SE knows they will do so. It's probably why AST is going to get semi-lobotomized because it's the least played.
Me personally, I think they should make the harder one and if people complain, just tell them "This is what was asked for, and if it's not for you, then don't play that Job". Because I think there are players that want a DPS Caster "support healer". Many may want it to do DPS Caster levels of damage, but tough luck, wrong game, play Pantheon when it comes out or something, I guess? Let the people that want to push DPS buttons more have their fun, since there absolutely are some that just want that and would be content with not doing any more damage than WHM since they'd be having fun anyway.
SE just doesn't want to deal with the conniption fit of "I have to do so much more work so I should be rewarded with more damage", so they simply avoid the whole thing. And as many people as say they'd be happy just to have that DPS rotation, SE knows good and well that these forums would explode with people complaining about how their "more work" wasn't being "rewarded".
It's the same reason I think Roe's wrong about the more DPS buttons for all Healers and people who don't want to can just "not use them". Either the damage gap will be big enough those people would be harassed and possibly fail Enrage checks, or the additional damage would have to be so minimal for pressing the extra buttons that the people doing it would then complain their more work isn't being rewarded enough. -
03-21-2023, 10:49 AMSebazySorry to nitpick on a particular point, but I'm falling asleep :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I could be out of touch here, but I don't really think that the 2% damage variance is the issue with AST, and it's certainly not it's healing kit as that's top tier.
The problem is the complexity and APM load it faces during it's 2 minute burst window coupled with how punishing it is not only for you, but for your entire group if/when you mess up as it cost you not one but two burst windows so you could get back in alignment with the group. I cannot stress enough, doing ASTs 2 minute burst sequence is somewhat demanding in casual content like 24 mans... However in Savage and upwards? It's a whole different level, mostly because you have to do said burst sequence whilst also watching mechanics and often running around and repositioning as well. P4S part 1 was the absolute poster child for this. Curtain Call forced you to run large distances whilst also having to watch both the arena and the rest of your group around you and yes, our 2 minute burst was slap bang right in the middle of both curtain calls.
I really don't think I can emphasise how unenjoyable a combination that burst window with that mechanic was for me. And that was 1 out of many examples.
I'd merrily play AST again if it wasn't dogpiling all of it's oGCDs and targeting stuff into such a tight little window every 2 minutes. But as is, my opinion and seemingly that of many others is that it's just miserable to play for hours at a time in high end content, hugely unrewarding in casual content if you haven't got people worth buffing and downright bad in solo content. -
03-21-2023, 10:50 AMty_taurus
It's still quite early on the surveys over from general, but here are some results from them so far...
Here are the averages for job satisfaction from first to last place:
Solo
1st: SGE - 3.8/10
2nd: WHM - 2.9/10
3rd: SCH - 2.85/10
4th: AST - 2.1/10
Casual Content
1st: SGE - 4.8/10
2nd: WHM - 4.2/10 (tie)
2nd: SCH - 4.2/10 (tie)
4th: AST - 3.4/10
Challenging Content
1st: WHM - 5.8/10
2nd: SCH - 5.6/10
3rd: SGE - 4.75/10
4th: AST - 4.3/10
Overall Satisfaction
1st: SGE - 5.6/10
2nd: WHM - 5.4/10
3rd: SCH - 5.2/10
4th: AST - 4.4/10
Most Desired Additions
WHM - More attacking actions (83.3%) - Runner-up: more utility/mitigation (79.2%)
SCH - More attacking actions (90.5%) - Runner-up: more offensive support (61.9%)
AST - More offensive support (78.9%) - Runner-up: more attacking actions (68.4%)
SGE - More attacking actions (87.5%) - Runner-up: more utility/mitigation (35.7%)
WHM
SCH
AST
SGE
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03-21-2023, 11:00 AMty_taurusAnd you believe "would you stop playing healer if they had an average of about 29 actions related to DPS (the average amount of hotbar actions on the DPS jobs) AND still have around 13-15 more actions for healing and mitigation" is a question that "has perspective"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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03-21-2023, 11:31 AMRenathrasOh no, it's not talking about AST.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
It's saying "Suppose we gave SGE a BLM level rotation and it healed with just oGCDs and Kardia. But also did the same damage and healing of WHM. Many players would play it (because they want more DPS rotation), but then complain that they aren't being rewarded with a higher output.
I think SE just doesn't want to deal with that.
No, that question wouldn't "have perspective".Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
...which is why that wasn't the question asked. Drop the hyperbole, please.
"BUT THIS IS WHAT DPS JOB ROTATION MEANS!!!"
No, DPS Job rotation means what I said above, 8+ abilities related to damage, with a timing and sequence they must be used in to do good damage. You REALLY need to stop approaching anything anyone opposed to you says with "What's the WORST possible way I can interpret this..."
EDIT:
Have you only posted these here, or also on Reddit?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Also, how do these compare to other role results so far? -
03-21-2023, 12:07 PMty_taurusI do not understand how anyone would interpret “having a rotation on the level of a DPS job” as only 8 actions. That’s what tanks have, DPS have significantly more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
And several responders on that thread also pointed out how unrealistic that was because of the action total, so clearly the wording of that question is misleading.
Someone else posted a link of that thread on Reddit before I did. They just posted the link to the official forum thread where I put those surveys though.
The other jobs are also getting responses. Paladin, Dark Knight and Summoner have about as many responses as Sage, like 14-18 responses so far. Other jobs have less. I’m on my phone so I don’t have an easy way to share specifics. Paladins mostly split between 1s and 7s on the rework, but is overall probably in the 6-8/10 range on ratings. Summoner is probably around a 6-7/10 on its scores roughly, a few 9s/10s but a lot that are between 1-6. Around 42% say EW is the best Summoner, but the other 58% is split evenly between SB and ShB. Dark Knight is probably closer to 7-8 on its scores, and it seems more positive, but around 88% prefer HW and SB Dark Knight. Darks arts is referenced in the comments a lot as needing to return. -
03-21-2023, 02:30 PMForsakenRoe
tbh I can't even think of a DPS class that has sub-10 'damage related actions', it's their whole schtick, doing damage, so of course when someone says 'a rotation and button count on par with a DPS job' they are referring to 15 buttons at the absolute minimum. Take BRD, it has 2 DOTs, a button that refreshes both, three buttons for stances (that, if on a WHM, could be one button that 'cycles to next elemental stance' or whatever, 1 button), pitch perfect, bloodletter, Empyreal arrow, Refulgent for procs, Heavy shot for spam, Raging strikes for more damage, Barrage for 'hit many time', BV for raid utility, Coda for more raid utility, Apex arrow/Blast arrow for gauge interactivity. That's 16 by my count, and that's not including AOE specific stuff. We're not asking for that though, because you cant fit all of THAT, and the healing tools, onto one hotbar.
So instead we ask for tank parity because their role is 'does damage on the side' too. DRK has 123, Bloodspiller, Edge, Carve, Shadowbringer, Living Shadow, Delirium, Salted Earth, Blood Weapon, am I missing one? maybe so we'll add one, just as a buffer. That's 12, including their 123 as separate keybinds. On a healer, we can do away with that, and make it a regular 1 spam (since combos don't work so well for casters), and everything else is situational things, dropping us to 10. 10 for ST damage and 20 for healing sounds like a fair ask, surely? Doubly so if we are including stuff like Chain Strat as a 'damage keybind', as we did with BV or Radiant Coda. But atm, SGE has Dosis, Eukrasia (to access the DOT), Toxicon, Phlegma. Just four. It's a tragedy. And if 'oh thats too much room for ST cos how do you AOE' then get creative and make some stuff work on AOE as well as ST, like how Shadowbringer or Doubledown are used for both AOE and ST.
Just look how neatly presented these numbers are, I love it, it's so easy to look at something and see 'oh, the overwhelming majority (from this admittedly early sampling) are saying SGE needs more attack moves', and there's no way to try and wrangle an 87% rate into 'nah actually what they mean by 'attack moves' is 'attacking the lack of HP the party has' so give them a second charge of Pneuma'Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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03-21-2023, 03:04 PMRenathrasDepends on how you look at it. SMN technically has 12 damage related buttons (15 if you count the AOE variants as separate, even though they map 1:1 to the single target and most of its abilities are AOE), and that's counting Searing Light, Ruin 2, Energy Drain, Fester, Bahamut, and Enkindle Bahamut, but is almost always called a "2 button rotation"/"same 2 buttons over and over". You can technically point out that several of these buttons pull double duty, with Ruin 3 taking on a different ability under DWT and FBT, and with Gemshine and Astral Flow having 3 different forms each for a total of 6 different abilities. But don't say that in the DPS forum... needless to say, most people aren't counting those as "rotation". The "rotation" is generally going to be considered as only having 3 buttons, Ruin 3, Gemshine, and Astral Flow. No other button on their bars is hit more than twice in a 60 second time period (Fester is hit ONLY twice), and Ruin 3 itself isn't hit more than once (unless you died), it's the hot-swap with Astral Impulse/Fountain of Fire. SMN's rotation is weird since the buttons change how you use them, but people constantly insist it's only a 2 button rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
MCH has 7 GCD buttons that are vaguely part of its rotation. Heated Split, Slug, and Clean Shot, Drill, Chainsaw, Air Anchor, and Heat Blast. Its AOE drops the 1-2-3 for Scattershot, Drill for Bio Blaster, Chainsaw for itself, Auto-Crossbow for Heat Blast, and Air Anchor is dependent on how many enemies (enough enemies and it's a DPS loss vs Scattergun). Flamethrower is an oGCD technically. Even if we count the oGCDs, we're at 14 for single target, with only 4 more for AOE which merely replace the 1-2- combo, Drill, Heated Shot, and Flamethrower is kind of its own thing. MCH's single target rotation is 3 buttons in a combo, 1 button based on a gauge, and 3 buttons based on their own CDs.
RDM has 8 single target, 4 AOE GCD hotkeys. If we add in Holy/Flare/Scorch/Resolution (the latter two being pressing the same button twice, akin to PLD's Requiescat combo), that brings us up to only 12 for single target and 8 for AOE. But these are more situational/proc buttons (change based on context, not wholly distinct). It's sort of like asking if Repost and Enchanted Repost are the same ability or not. Still, the core casting rotation is 5 GCDs. There are 6 oGCDs if you include Swiftcast (RDM can since it doesn't have to save it for Raise) with Contre Sixte, Fleche, Manafication, Embolden, and Acceleration. Technically you have Reprise as well, I guess. Oh, and I suppose you could count the movement oGCDs, though two of them share a CD. RDM's rotation is weird since there are a total of 7 buttons you only use once per full rotation cycle (the melee combo and following magic combo, of which you only use one of Holy/Flare per combo), but three of those share a hotbar and elemental distribution. The thing is, unlike SMN (to the people that dislike it), these feel distinct somehow and their specific rotational order somehow makes people think of something more than with SMN. That is, they are never counted as "just 1-2" like SMN's rotation is.
DNC could probably be fit in here as well, considering how people talk about it, but I don't use it to know that one. I'll have to level it and look through what GCDs it has and how its rotation works someday.
WHM, strictly speaking, already has 5 GCDs in its damage rotation; Glare, Dia, Afflatus Solace, Rapture, and Misery, with two damage related oGCDs, Presence of Mind and Assize. Debateably Swiftcast and Thin Air. An optimal WHM should be keeping Thin Air charges rolling by using up the second charge at any given time on a Glare/Dia...no one does this, but optimal play technically would be doing this since under optimal play conditions, you aren't using Raise, and definitely not hardcasting Raise.
Some Jobs are fantastic at compressing lots of abilities into a few buttons, with SMN and RDM being big examples of it, but so does PLD (while still having button bloat somehow...) and GNB with Continuation and Gnashing Fang both. Are those separate abilities as far as rotation? Technically yes, but...whether people classify them as such is kind of hit and miss. While way too many people call all of Gemshine and Astral Flow the same two buttons, almost no one does that of Verholy/Flare/Scorch/Resolution. But on the other hand, people kind of ignore the non-Enchanted 1-2-3 melee combo exists as the only time it's EVER logical to use it is if you're Verraising to the point of having no MP at which point it becomes technically more DPS than standing there doing nothing while waiting for a MP tick or two for another Jolt.
So really it more comes down to how you say it, and there's no good way. "Tank rotation" - is that the 1-2-3 -4, or is that the oGCDs as well? Does Gnashing Fang/Continuation count, or is that a side thing? Does Requiescat count as 4 buttons or 1? Which Tank are we talking about? If we count all the abilities (e.g. all Gnashing Fang and Continuation), GNB probably has more than some DPS Jobs. 1-2-3, Gnashing 1-2-3, Continuation 1-2-3, Burst Strike + its continuation, Double Down, Sonic thingy, with oGCDs Burst Strike, Circle of Scorn (it's totally Circle of Scorn...), Bloodfest, and Fight or Flight (okay, fine, No Mercy). Oh, and Lightning Shot. Then we also have to remember the AOE 1-2 and spender. That's a total of 18 abilities, 14 if we don't count oGCDs, which is higher than SMN even WITH counting its oGCDs.
It's more to say "If you'd like more damage buttons, do you want something like a full on DPS rotation, or do you want something less?" But again, I was adapting the questions you gave me.
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Make sure to post a link to FFXIVDiscussion as well.
PLD and SMN are going to be interesting since they're both likely to be VERY bimodal. Some people loving them and others hating them and wanting their old versions back. I'd say SMN more since the changes were more drastic, but PLD's changes are also more recent... -
03-21-2023, 03:20 PMForsakenRoeTank rotation as in '123 as a single button', Burst Strike, Gnashing Combo (1 button), Sonic Break, Double Down, Continuation, Blasting Zone, Bow Shock, No Mercy, Bloodfest. 10 buttons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
And stop counting Solace and Rapture as two separate buttons for the WHM please, I don't remember the last time I pressed Solace. And counting Thin Air as 'a damage button' when the best place to use it is on high MP cost skills like Raise or, god forbid, Medica2, is disingenous too. And Swiftcast??? Come on man -
03-21-2023, 03:21 PMAravellIsn't it a tiny bit disingenuous to bloat WHM's DPS kit by adding both Afflatus Solace and Rapture in there? If you want to add one of them because they replace a Glare and build Misery, that's fair, but adding both really seems like you're trying to make WHM's kit look better. You also mentioned in your SMN paragraph that people don't count things you hit 2 times or less every minute but you added Swiftcast and Presence of Mind here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Now, I don't know you well, so I won't presume your intentions, I'm just pointing out how it looks to an outside observer. -
03-21-2023, 03:23 PMForsakenRoeNow to their credit, you do hit a Lily heal THREE times a minute ;) edit: wait hang on you only hit Misery itself once a minute so I guess you can count the Lily spender but not the Misery then rightQuote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
And by that logic, tanks don't have anything beyond their 123 because everything else is 'dump it in 2min buffs'. Shadowbringer, LS, Delirium, Carve, Blood Weapon, Salted, all don't exist. Pack it up DRKs -
03-21-2023, 03:34 PMRenathrasAh, I see, the "Don't count things that make my argument weaker" argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
No.
Well, it's like saying should Verholy and Verflare count as separate buttons from each other (you only use one or the other) or should Storm's Path and Storm's Eye count as different buttons (again, you only use one or the other).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
Would you say that Verholy and Verflare count as 2 or as 1?
EDIT:
As for SMN: I more mean how people that (strongly) dislike SMN are overly hyperbolic in trying to say how simple it is. I don't think people actually sit down and count out how many buttons they press, they just think of buttons that are pressed "frequently" in the course of a given time period. Like RDM's Melee and Cast combo is 7 total buttons, 6 actions used in a row (Holy/Flare are an either-or, but do different things, technically), but you don't press it all the time. Still considered part of the rotation. Likewise Double Down. So I personally think of SMN's rotation as more buttons, but I doubt most people do. -
03-21-2023, 03:44 PMAravellI don't think that's a proper comparison because Verflare and Verholy both affect your resources differently and both have a place in your single target DPS rotation. Same thing with Storm's Path and Storm's Eye. Meanwhile, Afflatus Solace and Rapture do the same thing in regards to your DPS rotation, they both give 1 petal to the blood lily, which makes them interchangeable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
If you're serious about only counting one or the other, then you can only either count Glare or an Afflatus spell, because you use either one or the other. See how dumb that kind of argument is? -
03-21-2023, 04:13 PMRenathrasTo an outsider, you look like you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
Well, never mind.
Afflatus Solace and Afflatus Rapture have different use cases, and they're distinct actions. That's why I counted them differently. If I count them as one ability, then I'd have to count Verholy/Verflare as one ability. There are, in theory, cases where you'd use Solace or cases where you'd use Rapture because of their secondary effect, just as there are cases where you'd use Engagement vs Displacement. They have different non-damage effects even though their damage is the same and they're used at the same point in a rotation, with the choice between them being situational based on the fight situation at the time. There's a similar case with Forked and Fleeting Raiju as well (which ARE GCDs)
Forked and Fleeting do the same damage, but aren't the same ability, and would PROBABLY be counted by people as two distinct ones. If that's the case, Solace and Rapture have the same thing going.
And your example was dumb...because it doesn't make any sense. If you use a Glare instead of Solace/Rapture, you don't generate a Lily. So Glare isn't interchangeable with them, but they're interchangeable with each other. That's like comparing Forked/Fleeting Raiju to Spinning Edge to make an argument that Forked and Fleeting Raiju can't count as separate buttons since you can choose to use Spinning Edge in that GCD instead... Or using another Raiton and saying Raiton must be the same ability. That might be a dumb kind of argument.
EDIT:
In any case, no, there was no disingenuous intent. If they were the same ability or if one was a straight upgrade of the other (for example, if Rapture was 800 potency so that you'd NEVER use Solace), then they wouldn't count as distinct, I suppose. But that's not the case.
Likewise, that one is rarely used doesn't change things; a RDM can arrange their general rotation and Acceleration uses to where they're always using the same one of Veryholy/flare if they wanted to. There'd be no benefit from doing so, mind you, but you could absolutely do it unless your procs were just stupidly one-sided to the "wrong" element. A NIN can never use Fleeting Raiju and toss the button from their bars (I'm sure some people do). But, there's really no standard on "what counts", and I tend to keep all abilities on my bars, so...that's the way I was counting them. /shrug -
03-21-2023, 05:19 PMSebazyThen you're being blinded by your prejudices. Sorry but there's no way to sugar coat it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I ran the Bojza raid content as a DNC with healer actions to heal and I promise you that I didn't care one little bit what my damage was nor could I tell you what sort of numbers I was doing as it just didn't matter to me. It was a completely different change of pace even if it was fairly simplistic content and it was all the more enjoyable for it. If you gave me a healer that was basically DNC with aura and heal procs that had DNC's DPS rotation but did about the same damage as a WHM chad turreting, I think it'd be more popular than you suspect.
Agreed. in terms of our DPS kit they are one and the same thing, a lot of the time it simply doesn't matter which one we are pressing as we're overhealing full HP bars either way. As an example: 24 casts of Rapture, 0 Solace. 80% overheal on those Rapture casts. And this is RubEX. More casual content such as dungeons and 24 mans paints an even worse picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
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03-21-2023, 05:38 PMRenathrasBozja?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Boaja is a special case. WHM was one of (if not the) most powerful damage dealers in there, and there were some silly strong "healer" builds for Tanks and DPSers. Especially if people were doing meme runs.
Go to the DPS forum right now. Ask them if SMN should be allowed to do the same damage as BLM and SAM. Watch what their response is. And we saw this same thing with Healers in ShB.
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As for the other, I don't care enough to argue about it. I wasn't being any disingenuous at all, but if you're desperate to say 4 instead of 5, have at it. I just don't care enough to keep arguing over a button. -
03-21-2023, 05:42 PMAravellI look like I....what? If you wish to throw an insult, simply do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
The point is that there's no talk of use cases here, the point of your post seems to be listing the actions which contribute to DPS, thus putting both Rapture and Solace there is redundant as they both contribute the same to WHM's DPS kit (1 petal to the lily). Like you said, you can do pointless things to make it so you only ever have to use Verflare or Verholy, but that would be dumb and result in damage loss. You could also just spam Mythril Tempest combo on WAR instead of ever using Storm's Eye, but we can both acknowledge that would be stupid to even entertain. I'll agree with you on the Raiju one though.
As for my example, it's correct under your terms. 4 Glares and a Misery is the same potency, so you can go through the entire fight and never use a single Misery as long as you use 4 Glares where all the Afflatus skills are used, thus, Glare and Afflatus spells have the same value. You can also only use one or the other since they're both GCDs. -
03-21-2023, 08:03 PMForsakenRoeSave yourself the headache, he's more than willing to throw insults, but the second you raise heckles even slightly, he'll go 'oh woe is me, everyone here is so mean and always attacking me'Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
Anyway, the unfortunate truth is that yes, you do have to use Misery's even if there's no healing needed. Since Misery is equal to 4 Glares, by sacrificing three Glares outside of raidbuffs, you can move them 'inside' the raidbuffs in the form of Misery, moving you from having what should be, say, eight Glares inside the raidbuffs, to a pseudo-11 Glares (7 real, 4 via Misery). Annoying, but it is what it is. Personally, I hate it. I don't like throwing out healing when it's not needed, I'd rather hold the Lilies in case I need em for something. Sure my parse takes a hit because of it but I'd rather that than getting caught with my metaphorical pants down by Reaper Ronald standing in the dumb and being unable to heal them before their untimely demise because Tetra and Bene are just not enough OGCD tools compared to the other healers SE I am asking once again for a second Tetra charge thank you
As for Rapture and Solace, I'd only ever count one of them. And I'd only ever count one of Engagement or Displacement, or Fleeting/Forked. If someone else wants to count both halves of a pair then more power to em, but I'd call it disingenuous to do so. I would count Verholy and Verflare as separate 'skills' due to their effect on the Mana gauges, and their 'if that mana is lower, you guarantee the proc' effect, but I wouldn't consider it another hotbar slot because Aero/Thunder turn into them. Same with Jolt/Scorch/Reso, separate skills, not separate hotbar spaces. And when people criticize the idea of healers having more damage options, I assume it's more a worry about 'where do we put all this new crap on the bars', not 'I have 5 new damage skills (they all intuitively take the same space as current actions, eg a new AOE damage skill for Sage that is 'Eukrasian Dyskrasia' (yes I know it's contradictory))' -
03-21-2023, 10:10 PMty_taurus
Technically, you only need 3 afflatus heals for every 2 minutes, not every single minute, since we don’t have 1 minute raid buffs anymore. And theres no MP gain on using lilies unlike with Addersgall. Perhaps theres something to be said about rolling for a crit misery since that will likely be a gain over 4 glares which are unlikely to all crit, but that’s more of a gamble than a true DPS gain. Outside of solo content, 3 heals per 2 minutes is usually necessary enough for WHM.
The thing that may throw a wrench into that is if you use misery before the raid buff window, since you may need to burn lilies to have it up again in time.
If nothing else changes, having a blood lily anatman would be a great for out of combat or between phases way of discouraging wasting heals. A new afflatus spell that is not strictly a heal could also help with that mid combat. Perhaps we add something that grants a buff that causes your next healing spell to restore critical HP. Gives you a way to burn a lily while setting up your next heal to be stronger. -
03-21-2023, 10:52 PMAravellIf that's the case, then I'll take your advice and dip out of the conversation. I've already said my piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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03-21-2023, 11:41 PMAnotherPersonThere is MP gain, if you keep your GCD rolling and the afflatus heals are just unneeded, you can alternatively use them over spending another 400 MP on Glare. It's not a skill that gives MP, but it's an MP-positive skill compared to using 4 Glares in terms of damage potency per GCD. You basically save up 1200 MP over the course of a minute as a result in this roundabout way by simply using it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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03-22-2023, 01:11 AMNizziWhew, an overwhelming 90% of SCHs, that's kind of wild. You know what you must do, Yoshida...Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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03-22-2023, 04:18 AMty_taurusMore reviews are coming in, so the exact number is shifting around, but in the same general area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
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03-22-2023, 06:48 AMIedarusIncreased Energy Drain Potency to 110. Please look forward to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
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03-22-2023, 06:51 AMRyuDragnier*whistles*Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
It appears it's almost unanimous from the healer community that we want to oGCD heal less. -
03-22-2023, 07:41 AMRenathrasNah, ForsakenRoe REALLY doesn't like me because we have a difference of opinion on WHM changes and she takes it personally. She tends to harass and badmouth me in threads all over the forum. I can't post anything in here without her doing so, and she also does so in other threads she sees me post in like in the DPS forum. It's like having my own personal stalker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
If you're throwing in with her, you...well, poor life decisions, but do you.
As for insults, I try to avoid them. I will ever now and then break if someone's just been harassing me and pushes and pushes and pushes or does something pretty egregious like outright lying about me when they actually know better from prior (or even that very same) exchange, but I try to stick to facts and arguments/points of discussion. I dislike threads devolving into derailed personal insult/ad hominem fallacy chains. But certain people have decided that the best way to "win" arguments here is to just harass, derail, and smear the people that disagree with them at every turn, preventing any actual discussion and they seem to feel this means they will "win" by default.
It's obnoxious, but I try to avoid it. At this point I'm just not replying to the personal insults much anymore because there's no way to reason or get these people to stop doing it. I've tried.
I stopped because I DON'T want to get into an insult fight with you, despite you suggesting one first completely out of the blue and uncalled for.
I won't keep fighting over the buttons, I'm just saying they are separate buttons, with separate uses, that contribute to DPS (Misery is a DPS gain if used in buff windows) and to MP management (see just below here)
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
It's why Misery not being DPS neutral hurt WHM's MP economy in 6.0. Making Misery damage neutral, even if we made it not benefit from buffs at all, is like giving WHM's 1600 MP per minute, which is 4/5ths of an Aetherflow (1600 vs 2000), and close to that of Addersgall (2100 per minute average). It'd also be equivalent to getting 4x Thin Air uses per minute (on Glare). It's a pretty significant MP management boost.
They also serve as a movement tool, since WHM's other option is burning Swiftcast on a Glare or chain casting Dia if they have to move a long way. 2-3x Dia casts is definitely an DPS and MP loss over using Lilies there instead. And that's when Lilies do NO useful healing; when they do, they have even greater benefit.
I fully expect that would be the majority position of SCHs across the board. It's a position even my anti-DPS-self shares, so you know it's going to be nearly universaQuote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
Also this.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
Seeing a lot of this in the long-form survey as well (though people are saying it in lots of different ways). -
03-22-2023, 07:51 AMty_taurus
So I'm working on creating a google sheets that will show each job's mean, median, and mode for their scores as well as include the pie charts for things like which expansion did you start/which expansion was your favorite iteration. It's going to take some time to do every job and format the document nicely, but it will update in real time, so as soon as new submissions come up, the values will auto update and I won't have to do that manually. I'll put that up on the general forum when it's done, probably later this week or weekend?
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03-22-2023, 08:15 AMRenathrasHave you posted it to FFXIVDiscussion yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Can you tell how many of your respondents are from here vs from Reddit? -
03-22-2023, 08:37 AMAravellExcuse me, I never once insulted you. I called your post maybe disingenuous and I called your argument dumb. But I never once attacked you, the person behind the screen. You, on the other hand, went straight to attack me directly on your 2nd reply to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
If taking someone's advice is akin to "throwing my lot in with them", then sure. I already said I don't know you well, if someone else that knows you better gives me advice, why would I refuse it?
Anyway, you've shown yourself to be very assuming of me and very difficult to discuss anything with, I'll be taking my leave, continue thinking of me as a meanie that insulted you if that makes you feel better. I'm out. -
03-22-2023, 08:57 AMty_taurusSomeone else did alreadyQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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03-22-2023, 12:23 PMty_taurus
Just want to add that I've gotten around 40-50 responses on all the healers so far (except SGE for some reason who's at 30), but lots more feedback is rolling in for all the jobs. Excited to get all the info down to share. Overall, really cool stuff.
EDIT: The "check all that apply" questions are truly evil at letting me organize that info in a way that updates in real time.
EDIT 2: NVM on the spreadsheet waiting. I just cranked it out and the link's in the general thread. I couldn't yet figure out a way to communicate the percentages on who wants to add or remove what from the "check all that apply" questions, but I'll look into it more and see if I can make something work. -
03-22-2023, 02:59 PMForsakenRoeJust want to clarify: I don't know Ren at all, except for 'turns up everywhere with bizarre ideas on how class and encounter design should be, gets yelled at by pretty much everyone, resorts to 'you are all attacking me!!!'' Saw a thread in the DPS section about SMN or something, turns out everyone there was 'attacking' him too because he made the cardinal sin of saying new SMN is fun. Not just that it's fun, though, but wording it in such a way that if anyone else thinks it's not fun, they're wrong (which is probably the actual source of antagonizing). You can check my and his comment histories though and see who's more trustable (or better yet, don't cos that takes effort, I wouldn't). Funny they think I'm their personal stalker though, like I have nothing better to do (RuneScape doesn't grind itself), or that they're somehow special enough with their dumb takes to earn my attention (they aren't, anyone who posts 'benediction was a 6min CD' would have gotten called out just as quick). But nope, Samantha's a elitist, a meanie, doesn't know anything about how healer design should work, and probably ate a puppy at some point, I guess welcome to the clubQuote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...248/cover2.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Give me the numbers I need them I require them hand them over -
03-22-2023, 03:05 PMty_taurusMy page didn't update and I edited my last post with the info that I put the link up on the general thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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03-22-2023, 05:34 PMForsakenRoe
Yes I see them now, thank, the results are very interesting to see. For example, I'm not surprised that BLM is so high, being as it's not really had any massive changes outside of making Enochian 'not miserable to use' going from HW to SB, everything since that has mainly been 'logical evolution of the class' and it shows in the results. Similarly, RDM is pretty high, because as much as we meme on the 'one extra combo finisher step lmao', the base kit doesn't get messed with. Then you see stuff like BRD SMN or PLD, ooo boy.
If anything, I'm surprised the healer averages managed to scrape it over a 5/10. Well, except AST. But still, a 5/10 isn't exactly 'this is a job that is in a healthy spot' territory is it. If anything I'd call it 'this is functional'
Maybe we could ask in a few streams to see if streamer's chats might be interested in filling it out too? Or would this skew the data because 'oh if someone's watching a stream of FFXIV they're going to be super invested and that'll throw the data off' -
03-22-2023, 06:26 PMfulminating
I've been using the blue mage as a baseline to compare the others to. I'm not going to say it's dreadfully scientific, but by my entirely arbitrary metric there's some jobs in deep trouble. I'm disappointed endwalker warrior is so popular even if only just obtaining a positive score - I think neither the stacks nor primal rend are terribly healthy for its future, nor bloodwhetting/nascent being a potency rather than % of damage dealt. Absolutely thrilled by the summoner results though, it's nice having evidence that I'm not really alone on that opinion. The healer results are really interesting given how long ago the perceived peaks of the jobs were, with black mage being interesting for opposite reasons. It really does raise the question of how there can be so much disparity between what the devs believe the playerbase wants.
The thing I'd be most concerned about by that is whether or not it'd just be x copies of the streamer's opinion parroted incessantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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03-22-2023, 11:51 PMEstecka
Gonna add my answers to the reddit asks here, because I don't do reddit.
What are those spreadsheets y'all are talking about? I suppose it's lost somewhere in the thread, but I missed most of the discussion.
Are you satisfied/dissatisfied with the healers currently? What do you like/dislike about them?
Do you believe the healers could be better/worse? If so, what would make them better/worse?
Gameplay sure could be more deep, but sure could be worse. I have not played any other mmo I can draw comparison to, but I think they're fine as is.
To me, healer is the embodiment of support. The appeal is in keeping your eyes on the team, what they are doing and what woe that is about to befall them, and improvise accordingly.
I dislike that there is rarely any meaningful opportunity to make use of non-heal supportive abilities (cleanse, shield, rescue, mitigation). Please let me use my funny utility, give me something to esuna. Did you know that shields can protect you from knockback and debuffs ? Please give me something to shield people from.
Would you stop playing healer if the healers received a few more offensive spells?
Would you stop playing healer if the healers received a DPS rotation on par with a DPS Job (you will still be expected to attend to all your healing duties while also juggling that rotation)?
If it's just a couple of dumb damage buttons, I'd keep playing, but I wouldn't be thrilled. Phlegma and Chain Stratagem are uninteresting, it's just more clutter for my hotbar.
If "offensive spells" also includes offensive buffs like AST card's system, then I'm all for it. I mean, you could turn Draw and Play into GCDs, and call that a part of yout rotation.
With a full-on rotation on par with tank or dps, I'd be a bit more worried:
As dps, I tend to get tunnel-vision onto my own hotbar, which I think is incompatible with healer duties. As healer, I'm more acutely aware of what individual mobs or party members are doing; being able to play my "rotation" on autopilot while the rest of my brain power is redirected to playing overseer feels like a necessity to me.
There's also the matter of hotbar clutter. For healers, every button is potentially a panick button, that needs to be accessible fast and reliably.
For dps kit, I already struggle to put every action on my hotbar in a place where I can easily reach it when needed; I can't imagine merging a healer's full kit into that. Dropping supportive abilities to make some room is a no go for me.
I think tank is a good example of what I don't want to see healer to become.
They're the class I have the most trouble with when it comes to hotbar clutter, and the only reason I can play them at all is because I merged most of my mitigation into a single macro button.
In short, I could be interested in some form of rotation, but only if it's a supportive rotation, not a selfish dps rotation. -
03-23-2023, 12:42 AMSebazyThey can be found here++Quote:
Originally Posted by Estecka
I'll give a +1 on the meaningful support abilities as well. Go back some years and we used to be able to do stuff like Esuna Warrior's pacification penalty. I really do miss quirks like that. Shielding to protect against debuffs and vulnerabilities even used to be a key mechanic that saw use in Coil (gogo prey), surely that's something worth exploring again now that all healers have some means to single target barrier.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus