Paired Threads: What would it take to make Heaker kits "complex/interesting"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

It’s why I said that the more ppl cry for solutions, the dumber it gets lol. I couldn’t make solutions even if I tried. I just look at why the devs made these kits the way it is and why they thought it was a good idea.

---

Which is on the devs for being out of touch and not properly listening and filtering.
I personally believe that they put the cart in front of the horse here. They saw that healers generally got fast invites (not as fast as tanks, by the way) and wanted to make sure that it's more even between tanks/ healers and dps so dps players don't have to wait for so long. So far, so good. But the solution wasn't to make them accessible but more fun. The solution wasn't adding incentives to give it a try to reel people in that will then get hooked because of the gameplay.
No, the solution was pancaking the skill ceiling against the skill floor, making everything as failsafe as possible so people who don't want to play healer and would never main it even when held at gunpoint would fill queues - alienating veteran healers in the process and trading a good portion of their stable, dedicated healer playerbase for a constantly rotating playerbase of non-healers.

BLM is and always has been one of the least played dps classes in endgame content.
But BLM enjoyers are BLM enjoyers and loyal. Now imagine if they decided "Yo, time to make more people BLM. What do we do?" and their solution is to nuke everything that non-BLM players dislike ("turret", has to plan movement, requires fight knowledge, has several timers to watch etc) - making the casts instant, making Ley Lines be attached to you like a hoopskirt, making UI/ AF into a buff with stacks and thus eliminating timers. It would still have Fire IV, Ley Lines and all, so it's still a BLM ... right?
I imagine there would be an outrage if they ever did this.
But it's exactly what they did to healers. And I can say with certainty that the veteran healers weren't the ones asking because they were around and healer players before the big pancaking happened. Just like the BLM veterans wouldn't dream of asking to making Fire IV instant and AF a 6 stack buff.

It's a major concern regarding job design as a whole. There is a serious issue of the design team looking at a candle and seeing a house fire, where they look at something like cone AoEs on WAR and SAM, and instead of seeing nuance like they would with BLM's cast times, or DRG's animation lock, they see a a fire that needs to be put out, unaware that there are players who appreciated that candle's ambiance.

It's like filing a nail. There is importance and value to proper nail grooming--keeping them smooth, trimmed, and removing hangnails. But we've gone past that point on many jobs, and the design team seems to be filing away down to the skin on a crusade for anything that stands in the way of their vision of "accessibility."

There's a lot of talk about the state of job design as of EW, and I sincerely hope that the design team is listening because if things only continue to worsen, more and more people are going to throw in the towel.

More healing doesn't automatically mean increased difficulty to the point of putting people off from playing the role.
Let's say we have an aoe that hits for 80% of the HP every 50s. It's a massive hit, it might very well scare new healers into thinking that everyone is about to die from the huge damage spike, they haven't learned the damage patterns yet and press several cooldowns at once. The same thing happens 50s later but now a few of their skills are still on cooldown and they panic even more.

But what if you instead have a 50% hit at 0s, a 20% hit at 14s with a 2x 10% dot tick following until 20s, a 40% hit at 35s and a 25% hit at 45s and then loops (or not, just giving an example)?
You'd have 155% damage received in total but it's spaced out, it's manageable even if you mismanage your oGCDs, the individual hits enough to make sure even beginner healers will likely not panic over regens feeling too slow. You could probably pump those numbers up to 150% damage received which is more than twice as much as the hard hit-spaced out example without making it "scary".
Although I personally think a bit of "scary" isn't even wrong as long as the content gradually introduces it instead of going from "nothing to heal" to "constanty damage everywhere and pure carnage".

This focus on huge hits on long intervals give the impression of "more damage too scary for baby healers :c" but really, people are asking to feel like healers, no? That is why there is such a backlash when someone suggests more dps options.
So give us more to heal. Just drop this massive jumpscare hit into straight nothing for 60s crap.
Because frequent damage with lower individual hits is easier to manage for baby healers as well because someone collecting stacks like pokemon will not suddenly topple over. The way I see it, it's a win/ win here. Especially dots can be used to significantly increase incoming damage while still giving a lot of wiggle room on how and when to handle it.

But also give us better downtime kits. There are so many ideas they could pull from other days and would work here with some tweaks, even supporting and matching certain class fantasies to a T.
I've seen so many skills and talents on healers, tanks and dps lately where I thought "Oh, if adjusted a bit in this way that would be great in FFXIV". But I admit I'm too lazy to type it all out right now, sorry :p

I also strongly dislike this "wipe = end of the world" mentality that SE seems to have fostered.
So effing what if a party wipes? Rep costs are next to 0, you have a shortcut after every boss, you can't even get lost in a dungeon because they're all corridors, you don't get a debuff and your cooldowns reset. If they're so worried about "Oh no, players have to take a short walk, it will hurt their feelings :(" give them a chonky speedbuff when respawning after a death with invisible "checkpoints" that add duration the closer you got to the next boss before you got deleted.

……..I now come to wonder why ppl want healers to have so much dps buttons, only to put so much responsibility on oneself lol. Oh man, I got 5 dps buttons, 5 oGCD buttons, 3gcd buttons, a speed/gap button, all these buttons to make healing fun again.

Define "so much".
How many buttons do we want?

SCH has a grand total of 2 optimal DPS GCDs and is probably the most oGCD bloated job in the game, so yeah I want a few more GCD DPS buttons like it used to have to break the cadence of Broil Broil Broil. If wanting more than 2 is "so much" I think we should reduce every job to only having 2 GCDs in their DPS rotation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rilifane

Define "so much".
How many buttons do we want?

---

Personally? I want all of the buttons. For every time that someone rolls their face across the keyboard, or a family pet decides it's time to destroy someone's online life, I want something totally different to happen if the player is a healer.
But realistically, I think a 40/20/40 DPS/Support/Healing split, for this game, is alright, across 20-30 hotkeys, with adjustments to the split being made depending on the job within the role (for example, I suppose a 20/40/40 split for AST would be more appropriate).

Quote:

---

So give us more to heal. Just drop this massive jumpscare hit into straight nothing for 60s crap.

---

But, Rilifane: what about the emergency heal buttons! You know, those abilities and spells that we save for moments that we don't actually need to save them for in XIV, but would have to save them if it were another game? What about those? Don't forget about those! ;_;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

……..I now come to wonder why ppl want healers to have so much dps buttons, only to put so much responsibility on oneself lol. Oh man, I got 5 dps buttons, 5 oGCD buttons, 3gcd buttons, a speed/gap button, all these buttons to make healing fun again.

---

So that we can play the game.

The GCD that exists in some examples of MMORPGs exists largely to hide lag and equalize the playerbase's capacity for skill, effectively capping how much you can actually perform per second in battle. This makes it easier to balance jobs and allows players of varying skill thresholds and internet connections to feel on-par with one another. A significant consequence to this system is that it slows down the rate at which a player can actually engage with the gameplay since you often have to wait seconds at a time between actions before being able to actually do things. Have you ever seen this meme? That's the downside of GCD gameplay. Most people don't want this in their gaming experience.

In order to offset this, there are 3 main pillars of design that classes/jobs in these types of MMOs need to consider:

1. Encounter Design: challenges and mechanics that cater to each individual fight.
2. Class/Job Design: Resource management and priority systems that span across a variety of tools each class or job can perform at any given moment.
3. Adaptability: The ability for a player to respond to unpredictable circumstances.

Difficulty is ultimately relative to the player, but how you approach each pillar can make a game easier or harder depending on what you've designed. In an effort to make FFXIV as approachable as possible, pillar 3 is largely non-existent. Very little is unpredictable in this game, and that which is unpredictable is largely just player mistakes. This, I would argue, is the least important pillar and the easiest to get away with not deeply investing in. Having something very predictable is fine provided that the other two pillars are able to provide enough engagement value. Encounter design varies from very simplistic to very complex depending on the difficulty of content. Dungeons deploy very simplistic and usually well-telegraphed mechanics that players can afford to mess up over and over. Savage has far more complex mechanics that aren't as transparent and rarely allow for error at all. Again, this does a good job at making the game very accessible, because the only encounters that really start to push the player's performance are not associated with any story-driven content. If you never engage with extreme, savage, or ultimate content, the only thing you miss is gear that exists only to make that same content easier (something unnecessary for the average player), and a few mounts/glamour, and thanks to the unsynch system, you can eventually brute force that content for those rewards at a later date.

While this creates an environment where most of the game and all of its story content is approachable and easy to engage with at any skill level, it also means that moderate to advanced MMO players won't have a whole lot to lean on for that same content. This means the pillar of job design needs to be extra sturdy in order to support a fair chunk of the playerbase, and an issue EW is running into for all jobs, not just healers, is continuing to shave off more and more elements of complexity and nuance in that pillar, but this effect is something the healers have been suffering longer than any other role. Because encounter design is so gentle, there are massive gaps between instances of damage in most content, and even modestly decent healers are often standing there DPSing most of the time because there just isn't much to heal. Its been discussed how the healing gameplay of the healers isn't all that engaging to begin with, and they have even less to outside of those brief moments of healing.

Ultimately, for many of us, it feels like wearen't allowed to play the game because most of the time spent in most content is just tapping a button waiting for something to happen. I know it's easy to look at FFXIV and just see clears and rewards, but this is still a video game at the end of the day, and I want to play the game. That means engaging with a priority system of tools and resources that I need in order to get through content. And while most content is quite easy for me as someone who's played this game for 10 years, I still find it fun to try and optimize and perform my job as a DPS as perfectly as possible in a dungeon no matter how unnecessary it is for me to do so. I can't do that as a healer because I have nothing to press other than Dosis for 80% of the fight, and the other 20% is largely Eukrasian Dosis, Phlegma, Kerachole, Kardia, and Ixochole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

……..I now come to wonder why ppl want healers to have so much dps buttons, only to put so much responsibility on oneself lol. Oh man, I got 5 dps buttons, 5 oGCD buttons, 3gcd buttons, a speed/gap button, all these buttons to make healing fun again.

---

If I am spending more than half an encounter going Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare, what I have is not gameplay. I'm making no decisions, managing nothing, and not interacting with my kit at all. I'm a Trust NPC. And I'm spending *well* over half my time doing that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rilifane

Define "so much".
How many buttons do we want?

---

That’s a question the post have to answer themselves. What’s the limit of hot bars a job needs for it to make it fun to play. Solutions are a lot, but becomes bloated. Solutions are little, but becomes boring.

As much I’m joking about it, I’m actually curious about this. Seeing no middle of the road of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

That’s a question the post have to answer themselves. What’s the limit of hot bars a job needs for it to make it fun to play. Solutions are a lot, but becomes bloated. Solutions are little, but becomes boring.

---

For starters, there are a number of things that can be done to condense hotbar actions already without changing much. For example, Holy, Art of War, Gravity, and Dyskrasia all currently exist as buttons that are nearly never usable against bosses, which is the vast bulk of meaningful encounters this game throws at us, and even in the exceedingly sparse number of fights where there is meaning to choosing AoE over single target, there are only ever 2 targets, meaning Holy III still isn't worth using, and the gains are so miniscule on Gravity II and Dyskrasia II that it's likely to have no actual impact on clear speed.

You could easily add some modicum of value to single target situations on these buttons that make them desirable over single target nukes, and suddenly we've gained another viable action in boss content without increasing the action count. For example, maybe after playing your Minor Arcana, your next Gravity hits 3 times, or Gravity applies a Trick Attack like selfish DPS debuff on all its targets, increasing the damage you deal to enemies by 5-10% for x seconds.

In other cases, we can talk about merging or pruning buttons. On Scholar, for example, you could easily have Whispering Dawn upgrade into Fey Blessing, for example, being a flat heal with a HoT attached, and give it a second charge. This makes it more competitive with Sage's equivalent Physis II which is blatantly superior to Whispering Dawn currently and prunes 1 button of Scholar's hotbar without losing anything.

These are just examples of ways to trim bloat and improve engagement with the tools we already have. In practice, it would be beneficial for more conscious thought to go into revamping each healer to have a more curated selection of tools that have interactivity--keeping button total lower while increasing the amount of options players have with the actions these jobs are given.

I've said this before, I'll say it again...every healer needs something like the Cards to use to make downtime less boring. You know, SOMETHING to manage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I've said this before, I'll say it again...every healer needs something like the Cards to use to make downtime less boring. You know, SOMETHING to manage.

---

I feel like the problem with this is that SE would point to Lilies, Fairy and Kardia and be like ‘oh you mean these super engaging mechanics? ’. Even though that’s completely missing the point because all three are entirely healing based lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I've said this before, I'll say it again...every healer needs something like the Cards to use to make downtime less boring. You know, SOMETHING to manage.

---

It's also been brought up that even in its prime, AST is miserable in solo content as its cards very poorly translate to a single fighter--one who suffers the lowest DPS output of any combat job. If this game is going to try and better support single target play, it should make sure every job feels fun and interesting when playing alone or with trusts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

That’s a question the post have to answer themselves. What’s the limit of hot bars a job needs for it to make it fun to play. Solutions are a lot, but becomes bloated. Solutions are little, but becomes boring.

---

Personally, I look at some tools healers have and think 'wow we really didn't need to add this'. Stuff like Fey Blessing, which was added as a second gauge spender. It only cost 10 gauge though, why not at least make it 'uses all gauge, scales in potency', or 'uses 10 per tick, pulses aoe healing as AOE version of Union'? Instead they REMOVED the gauge cost in EW, and it's now functionally identical to Indom, just it comes from the fairy instead of the SCH. Protraction, Exaltation and Aquaveil are the biggest offenders of the expansion, requiring the massive bump in mit required in the current tier to even justify their existence for a lot of us. Physick, Cure1, Cure2 to a certain extent, Cure3 (cos Rapture exists), Benefic 1/2, all are basically never used because we have better stuff we can use in their place.

We have the question of 'okay but how do you avoid button bloat' a lot, and the answer I'd offer is, 'because we HAVE button bloat already, just it's bloat caused by having too many healing tools compared to how much we actually need to heal'. AST has CO, CU, Star and Horoscope. They all function slightly differently to each other, but the end result is the same, they heal for X potency, some having a 'over Y seconds' HOT component, and they're all 60s CDs. CO and CU are the worst offenders for this. CO is 200p instant, then 5 ticks of 100. CU is 100p instant (via the 'application tick'), then 5 ticks of 100p. So if one's 600p, one's 700p, both are 60s CDs, why have them both? Why not remove one (my vote is the stupid bubble), and give the other one two charges, or reduce it's CD? Why not combine Medica and Medica2 since Med2 only requires ONE SINGLE TICK to be equal to Med1? (same with AST's Helios) Why not combine Physick and Adlo, and adjust shield potency multiplier to keep Adlo's shield strength the same as it is now?

Why do we, as healers, need 15 buttons dedicated to doing 'healing'? WAR has the smallest button count of the tanks, and it's got 8 buttons that are 'tanking' related, the rest are damage stuff. No doubt someone will go 'well ackshually that is because they need those damage tools to maintain aggro' Yeh no they don't, aggro stopped existing when SHB launched with it's 'lmao tankstance is now a 25x multiplier', you could probably keep aggro with just pressing Provoke on CD at this point. Meanwhile, looking through Sage, the 'healer for people who enjoy doing damage as healer - Yoshi-P', there's 17 buttons that are 'healing' related, and only FOUR that are damage related. Partially because of Eukrasia, sure. But if those Eukrasian versions of things were made seperate buttons and Eukrasia removed, Healing would actually gain more hotbar bloat than Damage, as it's Diagnosis and Prognosis vs Dosis.

We don't need to have 17 buttons for healing and mitigation. Do we need Druochole and Taurochole (or Lustrate and Excog) to be seperate buttons, instead of trait-upgrades? They're capped by Gall/Flow so it's not like '3 Excog's in a row' is going to be OP. Or did SGE absolutely 100% NEED Pepsis? SCH's been fine without 'a way to break their shield', and they don't have a throughput AOE GCD, where SGE has Prognosis (regular), instead they made do with Emergency Tactics and it's 15s CD. And do we really need Soteria, a 90s CD that affects FOUR Kardia procs? If it were reworked so that you could use it more often, at a price, then it'd be justified in existing but as it stands it's kinda just... there. I hit it alongside Krasis and watch as I do roughly the same healing as the WAR can give themselves via Bloodwhetting, for 4 GCDs. Wow. Zoe's on thin ice too, being as we use it on Pneuma 96% of the time (the other 4 is for a scuffed Deployment Tactics by boosting E.Prog)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

We don't need to have 17 buttons for healing and mitigation. Do we need Druochole and Taurochole (or Lustrate and Excog) to be seperate buttons, instead of trait-upgrades? They're capped by Gall/Flow so it's not like '3 Excog's in a row' is going to be OP. Or did SGE absolutely 100% NEED Pepsis? SCH's been fine without 'a way to break their shield', and they don't have a throughput AOE GCD, where SGE has Prognosis (regular), instead they made do with Emergency Tactics and it's 15s CD. And do we really need Soteria, a 90s CD that affects FOUR Kardia procs? If it were reworked so that you could use it more often, at a price, then it'd be justified in existing but as it stands it's kinda just... there. I hit it alongside Krasis and watch as I do roughly the same healing as the WAR can give themselves via Bloodwhetting, for 4 GCDs. Wow. Zoe's on thin ice too, being as we use it on Pneuma 96% of the time (the other 4 is for a scuffed Deployment Tactics by boosting E.Prog)

---

Eukrasia is also right there, and yet so little takes advantage of it. You could very easily consolidate buttons on SGE and get more engagement with SGE's toolkit without adding a single button:

Merge Physis II and Holos: Holos is a GCD heal with a cooldown that applies a regen and increased HP recovered buff normally, or a barrier and 10% mitigation under Eukrasia. Both versions also deal 330 potency to all nearby enemies, 50% less for secondary enemies, since it has to be on the GCD to work with Eukrasia.

Merge Krasis and Taurochole into a single target GCD spell that provides the increased healing received or 10% mitigation under Eukrasia and damages enemies nearby your target for the same potency. This can also be on a cooldown.

Remove Soteria and have a GCD DPS spell that's the same potency as Dosis and grants 4 stacks of Soteria normally, which doubles your Kardia heals, or 2 stacks of a new buff that extends your Kardia to all allies nearby your target under Eukrasia. This doesn't have a cooldown, but has a higher MP cost and would be your main way to heal.

Even if we do literally nothing else, you've trimmed 2 buttons, and made both healing and attacking more interesting for SGE and also better capture the SGE brand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It's also been brought up that even in its prime, AST is miserable in solo content as its cards very poorly translate to a single fighter--one who suffers the lowest DPS output of any combat job. If this game is going to try and better support single target play, it should make sure every job feels fun and interesting when playing alone or with trusts.

---

Which definitely constitutes adding a bit more to their DPS, I admit. They should probably look at SB and PvP for ideas on how to make DPS feel better. Deployment Tactics becoming the Bane for SCH (if targeting an enemy) would be really good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Osmond

That’s a question the post have to answer themselves. What’s the limit of hot bars a job needs for it to make it fun to play. Solutions are a lot, but becomes bloated. Solutions are little, but becomes boring.

---

It has nothing to do with hot bar amounts or button amounts (to an extent) but rather what those buttons do and how they interact with it's kit and gameplay loop.
If we look at Stormblood Scholar versus Endwalker Scholar, there's only a 2 GCD DPS button difference - Miasma and Miasma II. (Yes, Scholar lost Bane and Shadow Flare too but those were oGCD and either not used in ST or just used on CD mostly so we'll ignore them) yet 2 buttons and how they interact with a job's kit is all it takes to have an engaging gameplay loop versus something monotonous and dull.

Miasma being a 2.5s casted DoT that you needed to hit every 21s and Miasma II being a large MP cost, risk reward weaving button that was a DPS gain if paired with Energy Drain. Having the ability to use excess MP for DPS gains while also using it to keep your Aetherflow rolling with Quickened Aetherflow is definitely a more engaging loop than Scholar has now. Managing 3 different timers (or 4 if you count Aetherflow at 45s) on top of doing mechanics and healing would be more engaging than what we have now. Of course, the job has been changed enough to where you couldn't just slap Miasma II back in and say "job is good now have fun" but the fact of the matter remains that we don't need a lot of buttons to have an engaging gameplay loop, but we have neither DPS buttons nor engaging gameplay loop.

Seeing all this discussion, I can't help but wonder if going into Shadowbringers, instead of simplifying every healer, they instead just fixed lilies, reworked Selene into being more usable and gave more ways to mitigate card RNG, would people be happier even if SGE was implemented as it is now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Seeing all this discussion, I can't help but wonder if going into Shadowbringers, instead of simplifying every healer, they instead just fixed lilies, reworked Selene into being more usable and gave more ways to mitigate card RNG, would people be happier even if SGE was implemented as it is now?

---

I mean, I'm an odd one out because I don't think the Shadowbringers lilies actually made WHM "fun", but probably more people would be satisfied yeah. Yippee, three charges of what amounts to oGCD Medica, the WHM is saaaaved. It's definitely going to be fun and competitive next to *points at healers with a flying crapload of utility and buffs and strengths the WHM kit has only ever dreamed of*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Seeing all this discussion, I can't help but wonder if going into Shadowbringers, instead of simplifying every healer, they instead just fixed lilies, reworked Selene into being more usable and gave more ways to mitigate card RNG, would people be happier even if SGE was implemented as it is now?

---

Personally, I would find it very disappointing if one of the most challenging magical disciplines known to Sharlayan--the hyper-offensive healer that heals through attacking, would have as shallow of a DPS toolkit as AST, without having any of its card system or anything even remotely close to it.

It’s not like the sharlayans have shown themselves to be bastions of competence, nor the conniving bastards introduced in the ast questline, this expansion. Their complex warrior-scholar lovechild being utterly braindead would just be icing on the cake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Seeing all this discussion, I can't help but wonder if going into Shadowbringers, instead of simplifying every healer, they instead just fixed lilies, reworked Selene into being more usable and gave more ways to mitigate card RNG, would people be happier even if SGE was implemented as it is now?

---

Tbh I really think they should have taken the time to make Seraph the permanent upgrade to both fairy forms. If they're fazing out differences between Selene and Eos, may as well go the full distance and make Seraph the permanent face of the fairy from now on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Seeing all this discussion, I can't help but wonder if going into Shadowbringers, instead of simplifying every healer, they instead just fixed lilies, reworked Selene into being more usable and gave more ways to mitigate card RNG, would people be happier even if SGE was implemented as it is now?

---

Personally, yes except the SGE part. If SGE was released 'with SB design on the other three healers', it'd have followed that design, not the one we have now. With that in mind, I assume it'd be closer to SB SCH in it's feel, maybe having a different system for how Toxicon works (so it's an actual rotational skill, not a scuffed ruin 2). Or maybe, like I've mentioned god knows how many times now, it'd have the current DPS system, and counteract that 'relative simplicity' by having it's damage>healing conversion system be more than just 'lol kardia', spread it to be AOE, generate shields via the damage, amplify the healing throughput (like soteria does now but as more than just an afterthought), etc. Either way, it wouldn't be 'SGE as it is now 1:1 copied over'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It's also been brought up that even in its prime, AST is miserable in solo content as its cards very poorly translate to a single fighter--one who suffers the lowest DPS output of any combat job. If this game is going to try and better support single target play, it should make sure every job feels fun and interesting when playing alone or with trusts.

---

Something something "who even plays a healer in solo content?" or "just switch to a dps for the MSQ" because apparently if you play a healer to have fun being a healing class, you're doing it wrong - now go back to the kitc- ...err, ex/savage/ultimate queues :^)

Speaking of MSQ on AST, I did a run through of the entirety of 6.0 MSQ as a WAR and then as an AST, the AST run took 3 hours more than the WAR run despite getting instant dungeon queues for every dungeon. I don't think people can say in good faith that solo content/MSQ on healer is fine as it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

I mean, I'm an odd one out because I don't think the Shadowbringers lilies actually made WHM "fun", but probably more people would be satisfied yeah. Yippee, three charges of what amounts to oGCD Medica, the WHM is saaaaved. It's definitely going to be fun and competitive next to *points at healers with a flying crapload of utility and buffs and strengths the WHM kit has only ever dreamed of*

---

Correct it did not. It became functional. That's not the same as fun.
Which is shb onwards in a nutshell. Stuff will function, but its not fun. Especially if you are a healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

I mean, I'm an odd one out because I don't think the Shadowbringers lilies actually made WHM "fun", but probably more people would be satisfied yeah. Yippee, three charges of what amounts to oGCD Medica, the WHM is saaaaved. It's definitely going to be fun and competitive next to *points at healers with a flying crapload of utility and buffs and strengths the WHM kit has only ever dreamed of*

---

You're not.
I dislike the ShB Lilies because they are as bland and boring and sterile as it gets. They make WHM function. But copying the two most bland and boring skills (Cure II and Medica) or all skills for a free, instant version and making the only interaction automatic isn't something that makes WHM fun or let alone gives it a skill ceiling. You just throw Lilies left and right and use Misery at 3. There. That's it. WHM functions but it's bland.

Compare that to the vanilla healer WHM equivalent:

• multiple skills that reduce the cooldown of other skills, can be expanded further through talent choices
• multiple "chance to leave hot on target" talents paired with a "heals extra when jumping to a target with hot on it"
• a cooldown that restores mana and decreases remaining cooldown of everyone else's major defensive by 60s
• three heal cooldowns that each work very differently - one let's you use powerful heals more often through cooldown reductions from first point, one that gives a dps OR single target heal OR aoe heal buff after using related skills, one that is channeled
• a killing blow protection with 40% healing received increase that gets cooldown reduced by 2/3 if no killing blow was prevented or isn't consumed and gives the heal buff for the full duration if a killing blow was prevented
• a 10%, 8s dps and heal buff if healing/ damaging targets below 35%
• a skill that heals for 400% of its normal heal and has the cooldown reduced by 2/3 if it healed a target below 35%
• a dps spell proccing instant, free single target heals, 2 stacks
• in addition to a dps buff to you & someone else on 2min, a functioning and responsive Rescue-equivalent, a ground target speed buff for anyone who walks through with 3 charges and 30s cooldown, a mass dispell that affects 5 allies and 1 enemy on 20s cooldown

The utility is unique to this class as is the killing blow protection (can't cheese certain mechanics with it, sorry :p), other classes bring different utility. Amazingly enough, they're all desired. While there do exist rankings, none of the specs are in "okay, but better bring something else" category.

And that's the most straightforward, basic healer in a generic raid heal spec.
Your raid won't die if you don't make good use of the "leave hot/ heal extra with hot" mechanic or if you don't manage to snapshot below 35% targets with a heal or if you don't use your cooldowns for maximum effect. But you have a lot of interactions that give room to increase your healing done, freeing up more time to dps with a toolkit that is, at its core, already more varied than in FF and you have the options to expand it further for a few talent points, adjustingg your toolkit to the environment.

I don't believe for ONE second that FF "can't do better" than what we have. There's plenty of ways to act interaction between heals and dps skills.
Especially the "gives 10% buffs if healing/ damaging below 35% targets" would work perfectly work in FF as you're encouraged to NOT instantly spam everyone to full. Every raidwide/ buster and quickly reacting to emergencies gives you a chance to milk it, making you a better healer AND green dps.
The mana restore & defensive reduction would also work nicely because having mit up more frequently in itself isn't op, you still need to time it properly. Both the mit itself and the cd reduction to catch multiple cds with it.
Cooldown reductions in general are a no brainer. The more active you are, the more active you can be because you get rewarded with more for doing more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Speaking of MSQ on AST, I did a run through of the entirety of 6.0 MSQ as a WAR and then as an AST, the AST run took 3 hours more than the WAR run despite getting instant dungeon queues for every dungeon. I don't think people can say in good faith that solo content/MSQ on healer is fine as it is.

---

I have done the entirety of the MSQ as a healer. ARR as CNJ/WHM (and again as SCH), HW-EW as AST and can tell you that no, solo content as healer is trash and if the devs want to make this game more "solo friendly" they need to fix that glaring hole.

Anyone who thinks that healer is fine I challenge you to do the same thing. Do tell us how long you lasted.

Having the weakest damage output of all classes/ roles and the most barebone kit for damage output is just the worst combination.
5min of straight 2111111111112 with the class gimmick on 45s/ 60s cooldown to... uh... cause a burst of excitement, yes. It's trash. The solo experience is miserable. And it drags out for longer than on any other class too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

I have done the entirety of the MSQ as a healer. ARR as CNJ/WHM (and again as SCH), HW-EW as AST and can tell you that no, solo content as healer is trash and if the devs want to make this game more "solo friendly" they need to fix that glaring hole.

Anyone who thinks that healer is fine I challenge you to do the same thing. Do tell us how long you lasted.

---

When I was a little sprout I began as CNJ since I'm a healer/support main in every game I play. I had Aero III, Cleric Stance, Stoneskin, Fluid Aura still did damage, and whatever I crossclassed with ACN or THM - I thought cool, this is like my priest in WoW with a bit of druidism added in!

Any 'healer main' sprout joining in now will too probably think "it'll get better!" and eventually realize...no, it doesn't really get better, they're only ever pressing 111111111, specially because WHM has LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE TO DO, NOT EVEN OGCDS until 56 when they get Assize. I really wouldn't blame them if they just dropped it and go with a dps class instead.

PS: hehe, glaring hole

I think a big part of why the healer problems aren't as immediately apparent is because I believe most players who heal at all don't play healer exclusively. They don't go through the MSQ as a healer, and they don't exclusively heal in group content either. I think most healers are flex healers, so for them, there isn't as deep of an understanding of healer optimization, and even when things do feel stale, they switch to another job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I think a big part of why the healer problems aren't as immediately apparent is because I believe most players who heal at all don't play healer exclusively. They don't go through the MSQ as a healer, and they don't exclusively heal in group content either. I think most healers are flex healers, so for them, there isn't as deep of an understanding of healer optimization, and even when things do feel stale, they switch to another job.

---

This is what I expect too...which is unfortunate as healers' problems will not be brought to the front given how those who main healers are basically the minority of the player base. What the healers need, and I have been saying this, is a unique identity per healer or at least moving in that direction. They are the biggest offenders of over-homogenizing and need to be fixed and adapted to the game, healing is very unneeded and a lot of the responsibilities of the healers have been pushed onto other classes, so as Rilifane said gotta love that 1111....and 2 if you're feeling greedy /sarcasm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allegor

When I was a little sprout I began as CNJ since I'm a healer/support main in every game I play. I had Aero III, Cleric Stance, Stoneskin, Fluid Aura still did damage, and whatever I crossclassed with ACN or THM - I thought cool, this is like my priest in WoW with a bit of druidism added in!

Any 'healer main' sprout joining in now will too probably think "it'll get better!" and eventually realize...no, it doesn't really get better, they're only ever pressing 111111111, specially because WHM has LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE TO DO, NOT EVEN OGCDS until 56 when they get Assize. I really wouldn't blame them if they just dropped it and go with a dps class instead.

PS: hehe, glaring hole

---

I'm that sprout... I started playing like 4-5 months ago and did the MSQ solo as CNJ. The gameplay was so painful & boring that I was not really paying attention to the story anymore because I had netflix on the side since all I did was run around and the only gameplay was the same spell over & over. I switched to AST when I reached Ishgard cause I thought WHM was the problem but I was still bored whenever I had to fight so I went with sage and was still bored. It was only once I started playing DNC, that I realized that playing healer was the problem.

Then when I finished the MSQ I started savage on my sage and when I got past the thrill of learning the mechanics of p5s and got my first reclears with people that knew the fight, I got bored once again. Because I was left spamming the same spell for nearly the whole fight. Now I'm progging p8s but the tight heal check of phase 2 feels more like a bother. Because all I do is weave a heal in between two dosis casts. I play every healer in savage besides scholar and neither has been fun for me. The only thrill I get when playing now is saving people with rescue, I wish we had more such mechanics.

And please don't tell me that healing isn't for me. I've played healer in nearly every online game where there was such an option.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I think a big part of why the healer problems aren't as immediately apparent is because I believe most players who heal at all don't play healer exclusively. They don't go through the MSQ as a healer, and they don't exclusively heal in group content either. I think most healers are flex healers, so for them, there isn't as deep of an understanding of healer optimization, and even when things do feel stale, they switch to another job.

---

I don't want to say their opinion isn't valid, because they should be considered, but, they shouldn't be the focus of any changes. Same as I shouldn't be the focus of any tank changes. I don't exclusively play tank in mid or hard content. I have my pain points same as any, and I have things I don't agree with, but I don't have deep dive knowledge like I do for AST for example.

Changes to any class or role should be targeted for the players who actually play that role more than a flex position. That SE doesn't do this is ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allegor

When I was a little sprout I began as CNJ since I'm a healer/support main in every game I play. I had Aero III, Cleric Stance, Stoneskin, Fluid Aura still did damage, and whatever I crossclassed with ACN or THM - I thought cool, this is like my priest in WoW with a bit of druidism added in!

Any 'healer main' sprout joining in now will too probably think "it'll get better!" and eventually realize...no, it doesn't really get better, they're only ever pressing 111111111, specially because WHM has LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE TO DO, NOT EVEN OGCDS until 56 when they get Assize. I really wouldn't blame them if they just dropped it and go with a dps class instead.

---

I started in Shb before "the great pruning of Post 2.0 BS" and the AST buffs. The only reason why I didn't quit was because I wanted to play AST that damn bad for aesthetic reasons cause the cards I wanted to play with got removed. Pretty sure I wouldn't hate post patches any where near as much as I do parts of SB and EW if I wasn't a healer. ...Should've mained DRG.

Still don't miss old Sleeve Draw and Lord/Lady BS! Crap was clunky for no good reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allegor

When I was a little sprout I began as CNJ since I'm a healer/support main in every game I play. I had Aero III, Cleric Stance, Stoneskin, Fluid Aura still did damage, and whatever I crossclassed with ACN or THM - I thought cool, this is like my priest in WoW with a bit of druidism added in!

Any 'healer main' sprout joining in now will too probably think "it'll get better!" and eventually realize...no, it doesn't really get better, they're only ever pressing 111111111, specially because WHM has LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE TO DO, NOT EVEN OGCDS until 56 when they get Assize. I really wouldn't blame them if they just dropped it and go with a dps class instead.

PS: hehe, glaring hole

---

I miss WHM's "glory" days (though it arguably only managed to hit "pretty good" days, Heavensward healer balance gargled some ripe bong water). Heavensward was my last glimpse of the direction things could have gone. The new expansion gave out two oGCD heals, which was great. Previously the only fast/free heal was Benediction, still on its utterly insane 5 minute cooldown. We got Stone 3, an extra good AOE DoT, and Assize, which has its weird usages that made a touch more sense during the Cleric Stance days but acted as a great WHM analog to Flare on trash packs. What's this, an expansion that adds as much or more to a healer's downtime as their uptime? Great! I'd love to see actual utility, a cohesive job theme, something to manage, but we're moving somewhere.

And then someone had an aneurysm midway through Heavensward and went "lol JK, turn this ship around for next expansion. Sylphie Island ahoy. Spamming healing spells as much as you can is your goal now!"

Can you imagine Yoshi P trying to stream the game from the beginning on CNJ. Just a speed run thru the MSQ skipping cutscenes with no extremes, savage, or ultimates. The solo duties, dungeons, and normal trials would be so boring for an orange parsing BLM main. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole healer role got reworked after that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katish

This is what I expect too...which is unfortunate as healers' problems will not be brought to the front given how those who main healers are basically the minority of the player base. What the healers need, and I have been saying this, is a unique identity per healer or at least moving in that direction. They are the biggest offenders of over-homogenizing and need to be fixed and adapted to the game, healing is very unneeded and a lot of the responsibilities of the healers have been pushed onto other classes, so as Rilifane said gotta love that 1111....and 2 if you're feeling greedy /sarcasm.

---

See, I said this ages ago when I first posted in these forums. Look at Apex Legends, or some such game. You have your characters, and their abilities, but you also have this (quickly stolen from a YT vid):

https://i.gyazo.com/3da3ea1e3de07d04...15ddab0b02.jpg

See that bit that says 'Technological Tracker' below Bloodhound's name? At a single glance, a player can tell what the character's vibe and aesthetic, and even gameplay, is about. Bloodhound's gonna be a character who tracks, like a hunter, using technology. So you play as them and you see, oh, this character has a scan that lets them see enemies through walls for a couple of seconds (if they're in range), they can see people's tracks (ie, footprints, opened doors, opened supply containers) and how long ago those 'traces' were left.

We need this for each of the classes in this game, as a guide for the identity of the class. Like, what sounds cooler to read on the official job guide, 'Astrologian' or something like 'Astrologian - Herald of Fate'? Okay maybe it's not cool, maybe its just cringe but we're playing an MMO, we live and breathe the cringe

1) I agree Rilifane! DPS rotations are laughably lame right now. The very unpopular decision to take them away and over homogenize the healing jobs was a grave mistake. Should the dps be on par with traditional dps jobs? Of course not...but, spamming 1-button is just ridiculous design. Anyone responsible for stripping these jobs down to the state they are in today should be barred from touching healers again.