SE, don't overthink Summoner 7.0. Just give people what they want. Just do it.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

It's really weird SE has such an issue with coming up with ideas on what to do for design for some classes, because the playerbase sure doesn't seem to have this creative block the design team does. Like, we could come up with changes for DRG that don't require a full rework, I'd imagine. Or changes to PLD that didn't turn Goring Blade into a Sonic Break clone

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the issue that comes with that is intense reworks to fights to compensate for drastic changes to job design to not fit a 2-minute burst meta, actually make you use the buttons they give you (staring at you, role actions), and making sure that classes are mostly balanced despite that...which means they put themselves in a corner design wise. again. hell, barring outright hires, i feel like a lot of people would be more than happy to be volunteer beta testers for future job changes, at the very least to get SOME kind of response that's close to something resembling "we hear you!" when it comes to job design. and when i say that, i mean outside of the Media Tours.

I'm okay if they add primal with demi primal. However, if they add that I want them to continue minimalistique of buttons. So new primal should replace the old ones when the 2nd demi primal cast is done. The current Smn is a great job on controller. I really like playstyle of being rigid while figure out how to use the primal properly.

I really like the idea of Demi-Phoenix having separate gems that are meant to be Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva.

I think the Energy Drain, Fester, Painflare all need to become primal themed. Could theme them after Odin for example.

We really need a new Demi-summon. Hoping for summon Alexander at level 100.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Leviathan.

Ramuh.

Shiva.

That's. It.

Please. Don't overthink this. Don't do something weird and pointless.

We don't need "Ruin 5".

We don't need "Summon Bahamut II".

We don't need "Energy Vacuum".

We don't need some weird fourth gauge that we consume to ride Susanoo around like a mount for 15 seconds and force enemies to engage in Active Time Events.

Please. Don't try to "subvert expectations". Don't.

Just do the thing.

Just give us the rest of the Classic Final Fantasy Summons™.

Just do it.


"But the Lore says that they need to come from a weird mutated Carbuncle gem, or something!"

Okay sure, here:

• Aquamarine Leviathan
• Amethyst Ramuh
• Sapphire Shiva

There, done. Let's move along.

"B-But you can't summon Shiva! That's blasphemy!"

Sir and/or madame. We've been carting around Louisoix's desecrated memory like a designer handbag, in direct disrespect of his final wishes, for 4 years now. The ship of sanctity sailed back in Shadowbringers.

What matters now is, "Will this increase pre-order purchases if it appears during a Live Letter?" And the answer — which SE's board of directors will be happy to hear — is a resounding, YES!

So not only will this make Summoner players happy, but it will also increase SE's revenue, which can then be reinvested back into Forspoken 2. Win/win! (?)

And anyway, you can think of it as honoring someone's memory, rather than an enslavement — since we are, after all, just play-doh'ing Carbuncles into effigies of Primals... not actually performing a true summoning.

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Just a small thing I'd change... Although sapphire as a color looks like Shiva, I think the mineral associated with them is Diamond!

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

Currently the smn has the rotation of a tank but without tank kit and without tankbursters or boss placement responsibilities.

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To be fair - you can confirm this in the Tank forums - TANKS barely have Tank kits, tankbusters, or boss placement to worry about anymore.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

Currently a smn has the combo of a sam/mnk at 60,

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I fail to understand how this is a problem. The game had less than that for 1 expansion (ARR) and then had that for the second one (HW). I'm not really sure why that's a problem, exactly, as long as it's just some Jobs and others have more complexity to satisfy the people who like a lot more. The game rose to popularity with just that.

One of the most popular questions asked by new players is "What's the easiest Job?" not "What's the least easy Job?", probably because that's what people want to start with, and many people like sticking with it. RDM was arguably the most popular DPS Job in ShB because it was the easiest with a slimmed down and easy to use rotation.

I again think the problem was not taking the other half/more than half of Old SMN and making GRM out of it, though. There was plenty there to flesh out a full Green Mage Job.

Not really a fan of summoner but this sounds really cool I'd main it if these changes were IN the game

They're definitely not bringing back old SMN or any semblance of it. They already said that they're not going back to HW difficulty and that includes headaches like SMN. It's no secret that the band-aid after band-aid throughout the years until the remake of the job gave the devs a nightmare to work with.

And the new SMN is received well despite what the complaints about it and that's all they want to hear.

It's clear that they want jobs to be more ease of access and streamlined, and unfortunately complexity is a difficult thing to tackle. How do you make a job that doesn't turn a new player off because of how obtuse thekr kit is.

I just want more summon flavored skills. Like turn their oGCDs into mini-summons that has effects from other primals.

The self shield could be Pom Barrier

Painflare to Ramuh's AoE attack.

Fester to Shiva's Heavenly Strike.

Energy Drain to something Odin related.

At this point, I just want the job to have more summoner flair to it.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

To be fair - you can confirm this in the Tank forums - TANKS barely have Tank kits, tankbusters, or boss placement to worry about anymore.

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Of course, with this tier the bosses have such large hitboxes that the positioning of the boss is not so relevant, but there is a minimum of attention in always keeping him looking north. But this is the boss mechanic that doesn't involve proper boss placement, but you go to other fights and placement is critical. However, that small aggro responsibility remains between the two tanks and thinking about how to do tb.

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I'm not really sure why that's a problem

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Personally it is respect. Out of respect to the players who used to play smn as a main class and ended up with a class of hellokitty online. Warning, the smn wasn't difficult before, but it had some objective problems that kept the player away from playing the class: the pet's ai, useless duplicate buttons and the fact that only ifrit was the smartest choice to use. These were the problems of the smn and they objectively solved them, nothing to say, but they completely emptied it of any interesting mechanics that were its own and nobody else's. Previously the smn had to manage the stack of ruin 4, the dots and the positioning of the pet. Now he doesn't have to do anything. Now he has to press the 2 buttons he has when they glow and that's it. The problem is respect. Respect for the players who want to play their main class and want to be encouraged to continue playing it, pushing them to deepen their class better, if they want, or not, but there must be the possibility. For what I say that the class must be accessible to all but accessible != stupid. Accessible to all because it is easy to understand, but with the right depth to push those who want, with dedication, to get the best.
Currently I can play casual a drg, the casual content allows me to do so, if I want to play casual a blm the casual content allows me to do so, if I want to play casual rdm I can do so, if I want to play casual an ast I can do so in a casual content. If I want to play casual blm in a hard content, I can't do that. If I want to play casual an ast in a high content I can't do it, if I want to play casual with smn on the other hand I can indeed.
The point, after all these words, is that those who master this class do not reach the peak of fulfillment of having mastered a class. I just feel a void like when I play any other class casually, maybe even worse.

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it's just some Jobs and others have more complexity to satisfy the people who like a lot more.

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Complexity should be a curve starting from the entrypoint [Floor] (So the lower it is, and the smn's is very low, the more accessible it is) up to the master [Ceiling]. Curve starting lower or higher, depending on playability requirements, but still a curve. Currently the smn is constant. It is static and does not provide for the person to improve.
Also, the smn is the only class, not only on ff14 but on the face of the earth, that has a setback in its gameplay.
Every class gains buttons to press and new mechanics to deal with: that can be proc, dot, different combo, positional, heals to place, regen to use, bars to fill, etc. The smn does not. The smn has no gameplay evolution, it remains static, gains nothing and only loses. The smn at 50, in the 60 seconds has a cast time of about 21 seconds, at 90 it has 10, The half, 10 seconds that can be reduced to 7 with swiftcast. ok the cast is not such a major difficulty, but the smn witnesses its own setback in gamplay as it goes forward in the level. A completely different direction from other classes in the game and any game I have ever played, especially in an mmorpg.

First a job shouldn't be easy or hard, just have a unique playstyle different from those in its class. BLM main focus is switching from fire and ice spells (Fire damage, Ice restore). RDM is alternating white and black magic to build up Balance Gauge. SMN was management of DoTs, Spells, and Pets, hence the bookkeeping weapon. This type of design works because it lets players choose the style they enjoy most, not if it's just the flavor of the month.

Part of the issue was the "enhanced" job balance for 60 and 120 second junk, part is the entire battle system is outdated for EW, and the other feels like it was just a rush job that ran out of time. Any one of us could have designed a better SMN job with more than two buttons and 3 visual abilities (almost said spell but that would require SMN to actually cast something.) The current concept is lacking, and I have no faith in the team to right the ship. They need an idea person to come up with a comprehensive concept of play.

Baha makes Garuda Ifrit Titan
Phoenix makes Leviathan Ramuh Shiva

On to 8.0!

*rolls eyes* I’m in the minority to flesh out what’s available before adding potentially double the rotation time. I don’t think theirs any way to add 3 freaking primals into a 120s rotation without serious harm or it turning into a 240s rotation. The community always pitches radical ideas such as this without thinking about how to blend it into the current kit.

SMN is done imo, personally it’s a boring ass job but I don’t see the devs focusing more time and effort into it for the time being and it will (if it’s lucky) get maybe a Ruin V upgrade and a AOE upgrade nothing more. And if you expect more look at MCH. It got “reworked” and hasn’t been touched since SHB besides adding dismantle back which should’ve been in 3 years earlier

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Originally Posted by Jirah

*rolls eyes* I’m in the minority to flesh out what’s available before adding potentially double the rotation time. I don’t think theirs any way to add 3 freaking primals into a 120s rotation without serious harm or it turning into a 240s rotation. The community always pitches radical ideas such as this without thinking about how to blend it into the current kit.

SMN is done imo, personally it’s a boring ass job but I don’t see the devs focusing more time and effort into it for the time being and it will (if it’s lucky) get maybe a Ruin V upgrade and a AOE upgrade nothing more. And if you expect more look at MCH. It got “reworked” and hasn’t been touched since SHB besides adding dismantle back which should’ve been in 3 years earlier

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Well, I personally think they need to drop the rigid 120s job rotation concept and just remove MP and replace with job gauges to the party list so players that buff can see when to buff.

But to your specific point:
Umbral Aetherflow adds Earth, Water, Thunder. Each elemental summons their respective Primal for 15s each (45s). After which you can summon Bahamut for 15s. A total of 60s
Astral Aetherflow adds Wind, Fire, Ice. 15s seconds each for 45s then Phoenix the last 15s which give you 120s rotation.

This would also give the 15s per Elemental to add whatever kind of cast magic to fill the gap compared to say Garuda that has a total of 8.5s (four 1.5s spells plus one 2.5s) total rotation time.

Oh, and i totally agree with MCH as well. Every "rework" has been lacking in thought (MCH, MNK, SMN, DRK). Rather than redesign, they just prune until it completely watered down.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well, I personally think they need to drop the rigid 120s job rotation concept and just remove MP and replace with job gauges to the party list so players that buff can see when to buff.

But to your specific point:
Umbral Aetherflow adds Earth, Water, Thunder. Each elemental summons their respective Primal for 15s each (45s). After which you can summon Bahamut for 15s. A total of 60s
Astral Aetherflow adds Wind, Fire, Ice. 15s seconds each for 45s then Phoenix the last 15s which give you 120s rotation.

This would also give the 15s per Elemental to add whatever kind of cast magic to fill the gap compared to say Garuda that has a total of 8.5s (four 1.5s spells plus one 2.5s) total rotation time.

Oh, and i totally agree with MCH as well. Every "rework" has been lacking in thought (MCH, MNK, SMN, DRK). Rather than redesign, they just prune until it completely watered down.

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Ignoring the gaudiness of it all gaudy being the perfect definition of SMN as a whole, what would this play like ultimately? Sounds like cramming 3 primals in a small amount of time just for it to remain tone deaf and one note boarderline like a slightly average healer damage kit just prolonged but also shrunk to remain small and strict for a job that’s while gameplay is 1-1-1

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Ignoring the gaudiness of it all gaudy being the perfect definition of SMN as a whole, what would this play like ultimately? Sounds like cramming 3 primals in a small amount of time just for it to remain tone deaf and one note boarderline like a slightly average healer damage kit just prolonged but also shrunk to remain small and strict for a job that’s while gameplay is 1-1-1

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Well, if I could design it, I would have it play similar to 4.0. Umbral and Astral AF would charge the Aetherflow with respective elemental gems. Then each elemental type would dictate a certain DPS play type and would also be a minimum of four attacks instead of one. The primal summoned would stay out for the duration of the 15s doing an AoE 2.5s auto attacks, so during pulls it's not useless like Automaton Queen. SE could even give them a preset cast order to mix it up. However, I would make them "small" as default, use only range attacks, and scale back the Enkindle's flashy graphics (Titan!!) so it doesn't disrupt other players.

*Earth/Ice would be you quicker cast (1.5s) combo but with more than two buttons similar to your melee combo setup. (Example: 1 > 2 > 3, 1 >3 >4)
*Fire/Water would be your longer cast time spells with more variety based on the primals attacks (Ifrit Example: Incinerate, Crimson Cyclone, Eruption, Sear)
*Wind/Thunder would apply 3 DoTs and a casting spell (Aero/Thunder are DoT spells after all).
*Note I said cast meaning it needs a cast timer, not instant cast. IMO caster rolls should stand still and cast spells. Physical Range should be the run and gun jobs.

After the Umbral or Astral gems are used up you can cast either Bahamut (Umbral) or Phoenix (Astral). Give each a 1 > 2 > 3 combo with 2.5s cooldown. Change Bahamut Enkindle to Megaflare because two Akh Morns is just silly at this point. Change Rekindle to Revelation and make Flame of Rebirth Phoenix's Enkindle. Next, I would have Everlasting Flight changed to a large AoE Regen Circle which is cast at the target. In respect, Bahamut would use Shadowflare, a large AoE DoT circle which is cast at the target.

You can also toss on some abilities to help round everything to include summon type animation attack like Susano, Odin, Alexander, Bismark, etc... (don't need to replace carbuncle just for a spell animation).


Edit: Now this is just an idea of trying to blend what worked in the past with what people want the job to be in the present. I don't think SE is going to do anything other than add another pretty ability or two, keep it a two-button job, and pat themselves on the back for it. Rightfully so, sadly, because it seems people want a simple as can be job that a Drinking Bird Desk Toy can perform.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l41lUJ...HVPG/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well, if I could design it, I would have it play similar to 4.0. Umbral and Astral AF would charge the Aetherflow with respective elemental gems. Then each elemental type would dictate a certain DPS play type and would also be a minimum of four attacks instead of one. The primal summoned would stay out for the duration of the 15s doing an AoE 2.5s auto attacks, so during pulls it's not useless like Automaton Queen. SE could even give them a preset cast order to mix it up. However, I would make them "small" as default, use only range attacks, and scale back the Enkindle's flashy graphics (Titan!!) so it doesn't disrupt other players.

*Earth/Ice would be you quicker cast (1.5s) combo but with more than two buttons similar to your melee combo setup. (Example: 1 > 2 > 3, 1 >3 >4)
*Fire/Water would be your longer cast time spells with more variety based on the primals attacks (Ifrit Example: Incinerate, Crimson Cyclone, Eruption, Sear)
*Wind/Thunder would apply 3 DoTs and a casting spell (Aero/Thunder are DoT spells after all).
*Note I said cast meaning it needs a cast timer, not instant cast. IMO caster rolls should stand still and cast spells. Physical Range should be the run and gun jobs.

After the Umbral or Astral gems are used up you can cast either Bahamut (Umbral) or Phoenix (Astral). Give each a 1 > 2 > 3 combo with 2.5s cooldown. Change Bahamut Enkindle to Megaflare because two Akh Morns is just silly at this point. Change Rekindle to Revelation and make Flame of Rebirth Phoenix's Enkindle. Next, I would have Everlasting Flight changed to a large AoE Regen Circle which is cast at the target. In respect, Bahamut would use Shadowflare, a large AoE DoT circle which is cast at the target.

You can also toss on some abilities to help round everything to include summon type animation attack like Susano, Odin, Alexander, Bismark, etc... (don't need to replace carbuncle just for a spell animation).


Edit: Now this is just an idea of trying to blend what worked in the past with what people want the job to be in the present. I don't think SE is going to do anything other than add another pretty ability or two, keep it a two-button job, and pat themselves on the back for it. Rightfully so, sadly, because it seems people want a simple as can be job that a Drinking Bird Desk Toy can perform.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l41lUJ...HVPG/giphy.gif

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Before I digest this, is button bloat an issue? What about recovery? If the SMN dies or a transition is done can it recover its 6 primal trail easily? And this is all assuming the pet AI won’t bug out. Theirs more to consider if you dig. SMN isn’t popular because it’s piss easy it’s popular because it’s flashy and the illusion of power, as thinly veiled as it is, while old SMN was more complex but lacked that fist of power like casting flare or doing a pitch perfect or a tornado kick

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Before I digest this, is button bloat an issue? What about recovery? If the SMN dies or a transition is done can it recover its 6 primal trail easily? And this is all assuming the pet AI won’t bug out. Theirs more to consider if you dig. SMN isn’t popular because it’s piss easy it’s popular because it’s flashy and the illusion of power, as thinly veiled as it is, while old SMN was more complex but lacked that fist of power like casting flare or doing a pitch perfect or a tornado kick

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Well such nuances are something to be worked out in the design phase, not concept and it's not like anything this would ever be made anyway. However it would have more buttons can say Bard, 4 spells that change based on element and 1 or 2 AoE, 2 AF (Astral and Umbral), 3 gem summons buttons that change based on AF, 1 Demi and 2 Enkindle/Trance Ability buttons.

As for death, that's an interesting question which begs to ask "Should it have an easy recovery or not even skip a beat because of death? Shouldn't death have some kind of penalty beside just a simple stat squash?" I would say if you died during Umbral AF phase, you could use Astral AF to recover. Again, it's a concept, not design and it's never ever going to be made.

Now I would love to believe people play SMN for the visual but then I read other post say they like SMN because it's straightforward and simple to play compared to other jobs. At this point I would rather just play a Heavenward Classic server over this mess.

personally, i believe that this version of SMN can get more complex than the rigid simplicity it is right now, and to me, the simplicity lets my mind freely wander on how it could be improved. do i think it will ever be as complex as old SMN? no, that game style had a complexity unique to it in this game. but this gameplay style is also unique in a way as well. so i think it can still work, it just comes down to whether or not the Devs actually have people checking the forums and stuff for feedback, and whether they'll even use it.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

*rolls eyes* I’m in the minority to flesh out what’s available before adding potentially double the rotation time. I don’t think theirs any way to add 3 freaking primals into a 120s rotation without serious harm or it turning into a 240s rotation. The community always pitches radical ideas such as this without thinking about how to blend it into the current kit.

SMN is done imo, personally it’s a boring ass job but I don’t see the devs focusing more time and effort into it for the time being and it will (if it’s lucky) get maybe a Ruin V upgrade and a AOE upgrade nothing more. And if you expect more look at MCH. It got “reworked” and hasn’t been touched since SHB besides adding dismantle back which should’ve been in 3 years earlier

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I'm confused, how would it be hard?

Maybe you mean Demi-Summon instead of Primal? Right now, you have Demi1, 3x Primals, Demi2, 3x Primals. So they could swap 3 of the Primals for the other three "Classic" Primals (Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva) where you use three after Bahamut and the other three after Phoenix. It would literally require no change to the existing rotation. The only sticking point would be if they could find 3 more ways to use Gemshine/Astral Flow, but it's honestly not hard, and I even pitched some ideas. I'm confused why you think it wouldn't fit in a 120 sec rotation when it already DOES.

Not to mention most people are hoping they drop the 2 min buff system in 7.0 anyway.

Me personally, I love SMN. It's one of the few Jobs you really don't need to run parsers and spend hours theorycrafting (or reading websites that do) to figure it out. You can actually figure it out entirely on your own using in-game resources, something I think should always be true of Jobs/classes in games. SMN as it exists now is insanely better than SMN as it was before EW. Though I still do feel, personally, they should have taken the other half of Old SMN's kit and made Green Mage out of it. Old SMN really had enough stuff to get two full Jobs out of it.

But given the two, I'll take New SMN over Old SMN basically any day of the week. The old one was held together with wishes and duct tape, and it's a miracle it even worked to begin with, considering it was a Frankenstein creation of grafting random bits onto the ARR Green Caller that, improbably, actually worked, but only just, with any new changes risking the whole thing flying apart.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The only sticking point would be if they could find 3 more ways to use Gemshine/Astral Flow

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i had some ideas myself, and it goes beyond just ARR Primals:
Ramuh: every gemshine/brilliance gives a stack of favour, and using them up activates Bolt Strike, an AoE that increases in potency with every stack of favour, first with a maximum of 50 potency, then a trait later on increases the potency to 100
Leviathan: places the Tidal Roar debuff on an enemy, and any gemshine/brilliance that hits said enemy causes it to explode in water aether, damaging nearby enemies and healing nearby allies
Shiva: grants the Dreams of Ice shield buff to allies in range, with the action changing into Dreams Shattered until the shield runs out. if the shield is broken by damage or by activating Dreams Shattered, it deals AoE damage for each shield destroyed

Warring Triad (Warring Trance/Demi-summon)
Gemshine: Malkuth
Brilliance: Cintamani
Astral Flow: Azhura Malda (powerful single target attack)
Enkindle: Eternal War (even more powerful single target)

Ravana (Bloody Arcanum):
Astral Flow: Falling Laughter (every cast of gemshine/brilliance causes a sword to stab into the targeted enemy, dealing minor bonus damage.)

Bismark (Expansive Arcanum):
Astral Flow: Breach Eruption (Long charge time for powerful line AoE)

Alexander (Temporal Arcanum):
Sacrament (places a Wildfire style debuff on the enemy that increases in damage once it explodes if the enemy was hit with Gemshine/Brilliance beforehand. single target. later trait gives buff for two instant casts if all gemshine/brilliances are used before Sacraments timer runs out)

Shinryu (Umbral Trance/Demi-Summon):
Single Target: Umbral Impulse
Aoe: Umbral Flare
Enkindle: Proto Star (single target)
Astral Flow: Aetherial Corruption (damage down and vuln up on a single target)

Susano-o (Revelry Arcanum):
Astral Flow: The Sealed Gate (long lasting powerful DoT on a single target. possibly lasts until end of Shinryu gem phase?)

Lakshmi (Blissful Arcanum):
Astral Flow: Vril/Vril Ignition (Places an "aura" like buff on a single ally, which starts accumulating damage taken. Vril changes into Vril Ignition for duration of buff, and if Vril Ignition is activated, 25% (trait ups it to 50%) of damage taken is either given to the ally as a heal, or back to the enemy as damage. unsure which yet.)

Tsukuyomi (Suffering Arcanum):
Astral Flow: Nightfall/Reprimand (places a debuff on a target, with Nightfall changing into Reprimand for the duration of the debuff. debuff stacks with every Gemshine/Brilliance that hits target. activating the debuff using Reprimand will cause damage, the potency increasing the more stacks there are, along with a new debuff that increases further damage taken, with the potency of that also increasing based on how many stacks of nightfall were on the enemy beforehand.)

Lore be damned....

Shinryu

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Originally Posted by MonsutaMan

Lore be damned....

Shinryu

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Shinryu's the one you point out above all others?

nah i kid i kid (and if you weren't saying it insultingly then i apologize for misreading it). i understand the reasoning, but at the same time that logic would restrict us even from Ramuh, Levi, and Shiva. SMN Lore is that anyone, no matter their reserves, can have at most 3 primals "imprinted" upon their soul to be able to be summoned. iirc you can technically remove one from your soul and use that slot for another, but in early HW story we attempt the ritual for one of the other elemental summons, but don't receive anything, even though we got "washed" in their respective. then we discover the Allagans developed the ability of "Trancing" to get around it, internalizing the aether instead of sending it outward as an Egi. but then we proceed to turn that Trance into a Demi-summon of Bahamut (thanks to everyone in the world basically getting touched by the thing when it got blown the fuck up.), technically giving us 4 summons. then out of nowhere, in ShB, we start Trancing and eventually Demi-Summoning Phoenix (also explained in the binding coil raid with Louisoix turned Phoenix letting himself return to just pure aether to heal the land, and subsequently the people.)

Consider what we've been doing since day 1 of our journey as a Scion. finding summoned primals and killing them. every single time, they return to pure aether, and we are subsequently "washed" in it. not even just the elemental summons. Moggle Mog is an ARR primal, not part of the elemental set, yet it would still count as the series Moogle Summon for XIV. every primal in HW, we murder and get washed in its aether (I'm not exactly sure for alexander, but we did dissolve Big Al Prime so...). KoTR is a candidate as well. all the primals in SB? killed, washed in their aether. no matter what Shinryu's pelting us with tons of different aether during the fight, and the main body had to disperse SOMETHING when it dissipated. hell you can make an argument that the Lightwardens of ShB were primals, at the very least Titania, and they could be summoned as well if we so wished. to say nothing of what we accomplish in EW...

So where does that lead us? they say we can only "imprint" three primals on our soul...but they don't say that it's locked to three primals period. they could easily write it off as the WoL, badass sarcastic mute extraordinaire, realizing that trancing separate powerful primals lets them summon "lesser" primals that aren't Ifrit, Titan, Garuda and Bahamut. that lets them open up expansion for SMN into various different routes of reworks and improvements, and doesn't limit them to what we have right now.

but that still comes with them even realizing that and capitalizing on it...

Summoner plays itself. This is incredibly boring. Adding some way to do it wrong should be the first priority if they are to keep at this inherently flawed version.

Despite the token differences, the primals hardly have any distinction. This may be due to the extremely short time each is present for, or that astral flow is carrying them. They could change it so that 2/3 are used in a full cycle, introducing more choice - although this would need to be coupled with meaningful downsides and benefits to each - or leaning back towards summoner and separating the summons and caster into cooperative halves.

I retain my view that it is fundamentally unworkable and the only solution is returning to the drawing board entirely.

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Originally Posted by MonsutaMan

Lore be damned....

Shinryu

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8.0 capstone ability for the next Demi- once the 3 min meta is introduced and we meet Zenos' ghost and find he really cared for us the entire time and lets us absorb his aether for some pivotal event, after which SMNs can summon him as a Demi. There ya go. :)

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

I retain my view that it is fundamentally unworkable and the only solution is returning to the drawing board entirely.

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Disagree, it works fine and is actually a ton of fun to play. I don't think it's "unworkable" nor "fundamentally" so. I think it's more you'd just like something else instead of it, not that the Job ITSELF has problems, much less unworkable ones.

The way it has been redesigned leaves little to no room for growth - what can realistically be added to it without heavily restructuring the rotation?

The job currently has very little depth, presumably deliberately - you can shift the crayons around, but ultimately you're never going to want to end them early nor have more than a couple of ruins leeway/2m. That combined with the high mobility on this new summoner is also an issue - I don't think many would say black mage's difficulty lies in its rotation, but more about maintaining it throughout the combat encounter. If new summoner is to be this simple it cannot be this mobile.

Aetherflow being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't help either - most dps have at least two resources to manage, usually 3. (mch has heat/battery, sam sen/kenki(lmao)/positionals, war tank responsibilities/beast gauge/infuriate timer, scholar aetherflow/healer resources/fey gauge(lmao) or bio timer). Summoner barely has aetherflow, crayons are on rails and it's not like cast time really has to be taken into consideration.

The pet also being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't sit well either. What is its point anymore? It doesn't auto attack, it barely even pretends to exist - they even patched out its ability to cast searing light during asphodelos.

The fact that a job where the skill floor and ceiling weren't the same line was sacrificed for this is just further insult - although in fairness there seems to have been a fair amount of that across the board.

I've been over this before so sorry if this sounds uninterested and I'm pretty sure there's some points I've forgotten to mention.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

The way it has been redesigned leaves little to no room for growth - what can realistically be added to it without heavily restructuring the rotation?

The job currently has very little depth, presumably deliberately - you can shift the crayons around, but ultimately you're never going to want to end them early nor have more than a couple of ruins leeway/2m. That combined with the high mobility on this new summoner is also an issue - I don't think many would say black mage's difficulty lies in its rotation, but more about maintaining it throughout the combat encounter. If new summoner is to be this simple it cannot be this mobile.

Aetherflow being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't help either - most dps have at least two resources to manage, usually 3. (mch has heat/battery, sam sen/kenki(lmao)/positionals, war tank responsibilities/beast gauge/infuriate timer, scholar aetherflow/healer resources/fey gauge(lmao) or bio timer). Summoner barely has aetherflow, crayons are on rails and it's not like cast time really has to be taken into consideration.

The pet also being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't sit well either. What is its point anymore? It doesn't auto attack, it barely even pretends to exist - they even patched out its ability to cast searing light during asphodelos.

The fact that a job where the skill floor and ceiling weren't the same line was sacrificed for this is just further insult - although in fairness there seems to have been a fair amount of that across the board.

I've been over this before so sorry if this sounds uninterested and I'm pretty sure there's some points I've forgotten to mention.

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no no, you're all good. honestly even as someone who enjoys the new summoner i get where you're coming from. and a lot of my personal ideas for this class is mainly just riding out on hope that they'll actually do something with it unlike with MCH.

funnily enough, your argument of designing it for little to no room for growth was i think the same reason they gave for changing it around in the first place. they thought that the DoT and beastmaster stuff was reaching a point of being a hassle to try and code or balance properly, i think?

but at the same time, i feel like new SMN probably would benefit from having more to manage between summons. granted this sounds odd I'm sure, but the main issue would putting room for such management, cause i don't think there is a lot of room to work with if you're doing things "properly" (like full on, demi-summon straight to elementals, elementals one after another, immediately popping energy drain and aetherflow stacks alongside searing light. not a lot of room to put a little extra in). so...maybe having the summons have their own CD where you have a 15 second window or so to try and put more in? could have carbuncle stuff or something for that at least.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

The way it has been redesigned leaves little to no room for growth

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I do not agree. Currently the smn is in a state of sad incompleteness, they gave it the core but it lacks the resources to manage. Adding them and maybe fixing also the level progression which is currently as ridiculous as its 90 status.

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The pet also being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't sit well either. What is its point anymore? It doesn't auto attack, it barely even pretends to exist - they even patched out its ability to cast searing light during asphodelos.

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Yeah. From my point of view, the pet is one of the key points to make smn less boring. If only they freed it from other summons, it would have infinite potential, currently it's decorative. Managing pet placement is one of the things I miss the most.

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The fact that a job where the skill floor and ceiling weren't the same line was sacrificed for this is just further insult.

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This is the serious point. They spat in the face of those who play the class. But it's actually spitting in any player's face. As I wrote a few previous posts ago (Here) is a static class that does not provide that the player can improve. This class is frightening from how wrong it is in so many ways.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Summoner plays itself. This is incredibly boring. Adding some way to do it wrong should be the first priority if they are to keep at this inherently flawed version.

Despite the token differences, the primals hardly have any distinction. This may be due to the extremely short time each is present for, or that astral flow is carrying them. They could change it so that 2/3 are used in a full cycle, introducing more choice - although this would need to be coupled with meaningful downsides and benefits to each - or leaning back towards summoner and separating the summons and caster into cooperative halves.

I retain my view that it is fundamentally unworkable and the only solution is returning to the drawing board entirely.

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most jobs tend to be that way, the devs struggle to rework with the past incarnation ingredients but a ground up rework not a shallow adjustment/sanded-down version like MCH or MNK, is required for not just SMN. But SMN of all jobs needs it the most

i hope SMN is reworked again to be more like shadowbringers. it is so boring and lame now. you just summon something and spam 1 button over and over and over.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

The way it has been redesigned leaves little to no room for growth - what can realistically be added to it without heavily restructuring the rotation?

The job currently has very little depth, presumably deliberately - you can shift the crayons around, but ultimately you're never going to want to end them early nor have more than a couple of ruins leeway/2m. That combined with the high mobility on this new summoner is also an issue - I don't think many would say black mage's difficulty lies in its rotation, but more about maintaining it throughout the combat encounter. If new summoner is to be this simple it cannot be this mobile.

Aetherflow being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't help either - most dps have at least two resources to manage, usually 3. (mch has heat/battery, sam sen/kenki(lmao)/positionals, war tank responsibilities/beast gauge/infuriate timer, scholar aetherflow/healer resources/fey gauge(lmao) or bio timer). Summoner barely has aetherflow, crayons are on rails and it's not like cast time really has to be taken into consideration.

The pet also being vestigial rather than a core mechanic doesn't sit well either. What is its point anymore? It doesn't auto attack, it barely even pretends to exist - they even patched out its ability to cast searing light during asphodelos.

The fact that a job where the skill floor and ceiling weren't the same line was sacrificed for this is just further insult - although in fairness there seems to have been a fair amount of that across the board.

I've been over this before so sorry if this sounds uninterested and I'm pretty sure there's some points I've forgotten to mention.

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I really disagree on the first statement of no room for growth... Feature-wise, they literally have the remaining elements (Water, Ice and Lightning) to add as gemstones. I would guess that is a pretty obvious path to add a trait, post level 90, to change the gemstones to those new ones whenever you enter Phoenix phase.

There they have growth room and can, for example, re-introduce a heavier cast time oriented play there as opposed to the first set having most insta casts.

This probably wouldnt do much to address the job's lack of depth, though. For that, and the only thing I believe it need to be revised (like you said) is Aetherflow feeling like a leftover (both mechanically and thematically) from the previous Summoner. If they choose to rework that aspect, there is a fine point to add job depth if they find a way to make Aetherflow interact more distinctively with the gemstone rotation, or the demis.

I think that, like MCH, thematically SMN is in a great spot. But mechanically it feels like a level 70 job playing at 90.

edit: Forgot to mention the Carbuncle.

For me... either make Summon Carbuncle entirely cosmetic and optional or find a way to re-incorporate the pet in combat.

If they absolutely have to remain as they are... at the very least make it auto-attack, like Eos auto-heals. A tiny contribution to the dps, but at the very least it would make the little thing something more than just a hindrance for your personal shield.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

If they absolutely have to remain as they are... at the very least make it auto-attack, like Eos auto-heals. A tiny contribution to the dps, but at the very least it would make the little thing something more than just a hindrance for your personal shield.

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Could be like something like a 50 potency attack the carbuncle does each time you attack, functioning like the demis. As it will have some contributioning DPS post demis.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I really disagree on the first statement of no room for growth... Feature-wise, they literally have the remaining elements (Water, Ice and Lightning) to add as gemstones. I would guess that is a pretty obvious path to add a trait, post level 90, to change the gemstones to those new ones whenever you enter Phoenix phase.

There they have growth room and can, for example, re-introduce a heavier cast time oriented play there as opposed to the first set having most insta casts.

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Frankly, I can't find any pros. If they do something like this it will really be the right time for this class to drop and I'm going to play summoner in rotmg. What is the sense of adding elementals after phoenix? No one, it wouldn't change anything. You would still have to press the buttons when they light up. It just makes it difficult for the level designer to structure a raid based on a 2 minute caster rotation. I really don't think they shoot themselves in the foot.
If you have to add cast time you add it in the one-minute rotation, but otherwise it means nothing to have one minute where you can move freely and one minute where you are petrified to be a statue. It would just be unbalanced. If new elementals are to be added, welcome, but they must be added knowledgeably.

When Fulminating says there is no room for growth he is partly right and partly not, because the core of the class is there and that is what you have and if there is no rework of the core it is difficult to improve it, however something could be built around it. What the smn lacks is managing something, currently it presses keys because they light up and the player is not driven to play for knowledge. Designers can work on the carbuncle, which is now getting mold, and it could really be the work on him that saves the job. Designers can work on contrivances that get the player to use at least one neuron, at least one. Even with this core.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

What is the sense of adding elementals after phoenix?

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Fleshing out a job fantasy of being a summoner from a thematic and mechanical standpoint. Likewise the same for Demis that could add even more primals. Or new traits that modify existing abilities like fester or aetherflow or physik to give them a more primal feel.

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Originally Posted by Whalaqee

Fleshing out a job fantasy of being a summoner from a thematic and mechanical standpoint. Likewise the same for Demis that could add even more primals. Or new traits that modify existing abilities like fester or aetherflow or physik to give them a more primal feel.

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You changed the color of your spells. Now?
It should be functional to add elementals and it should be compatible with the game. If you want to make them different from the other 3 elementals, you are doubling the rotation: it doesn't change anything to you because you press the single button when it light up and scratch with the other hand remaining the same boredom, but it changes completely for the designers who have to think about balancing the raid mechanics just for the summoner. We are talking about a video game not a fireworks show. New summons are always welcome, but they have to be put in a way that is compatible in context. I don't want to sound rude, but sometimes the simplest thing that comes to mind is not always the right thing.

Carbuncle could do 50 potency attacks, like the Baha/Phoenix, whenever the summoner attacks.

If Carbuncle was decoupled from the other summons it could allow for stuff like being able to trade positions with the carbuncle. Like on a 20s cooldown. Which could be useful positioning.

Replacing Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda with Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva after a Phoenix. So I/T/G are umbral and L/R/S are astral. The summons could keep their initial damage potencies just like how phoenix still does 1,300 potency attack like bahamut's. And it wouldn't just be a cosmetic change, as the new summons would have to have their own boons they grant which can change the playstyle.

Could have during the 'astral gems' a trait that changes resurrection and physic. Like resurrection becomes Mog Create. Costs like 4000 MP, 60 second flat internal cooldown, instant cast resurrection. As that would alleviate a tiny bit of summoners burden. Physic could be Pom Cure and actually uses INT to heal with, could work off a charge system, like having 2 or 3 of these Pom Cures. Both Mog Create and Pom Cure showing up near your buffs section with a timer that starts at 60s.

Energy Drain, Fester, Painflare, and Energy Siphon are harder to pin down, but since their nature is to weave them them in with the rest of your kit. Perhaps they can bolster other aspects when weaved in.

Please inject OP's ideas into my digital character's veins already, Yoshi-P!

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Carbuncle could do 50 potency attacks, like the Baha/Phoenix, whenever the summoner attacks.

If Carbuncle was decoupled from the other summons it could allow for stuff like being able to trade positions with the carbuncle. Like on a 20s cooldown. Which could be useful positioning.

Replacing Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda with Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva after a Phoenix. So I/T/G are umbral and L/R/S are astral. The summons could keep their initial damage potencies just like how phoenix still does 1,300 potency attack like bahamut's. And it wouldn't just be a cosmetic change, as the new summons would have to have their own boons they grant which can change the playstyle.

Could have during the 'astral gems' a trait that changes resurrection and physic. Like resurrection becomes Mog Create. Costs like 4000 MP, 60 second flat internal cooldown, instant cast resurrection. As that would alleviate a tiny bit of summoners burden. Physic could be Pom Cure and actually uses INT to heal with, could work off a charge system, like having 2 or 3 of these Pom Cures. Both Mog Create and Pom Cure showing up near your buffs section with a timer that starts at 60s.

Energy Drain, Fester, Painflare, and Energy Siphon are harder to pin down, but since their nature is to weave them them in with the rest of your kit. Perhaps they can bolster other aspects when weaved in.

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I wouldn't have the pet attack automatically, for the simple fact that it takes up space in its queue, so then all commands would have a delay. if we really want to give it an attack, I would give it a circular dot that is placed under it.
The idea of ​​the position-swapping carbuncle is interesting, so you exploit its positioning and the smn gets a "dash" that tastes different from all the others, the most sensible way to exploit the pet positioning. I would entrust the phoenix cure to the carbuncle, the carbuncle has a cure every x seconds, but with phoenix it is restored instantly.
I personally consider the insta ress a little too strong, we already have much more movement than the other casters, I would not like to pay any more taxes.I would restore searing light to the pet and the shield would significantly reduce power but make it aoe.

I'm always of the opinion that having the 3 summon after phoenix is ​​a bad idea and I think I've argued a minimum, so I'm not repeating myself. Personally I would add 2 summons directly in the minute that complement each other. The smn will be pushed to use all the summons but so he will have to be careful with all his cooldowns because they will not come up perfectly with the use of all the elementals abilities. Maybe a summon that justifies ifrit's gapcloser continuing the melee combo (for example, if one of the new summons was shiva, I'd give her Icebrand - 5y cone attack)

I would join Energy Drain, Fester, Painflare, and Energy Siphon in 2 buttons and merge the single target with the aoe. Currently the smn has very few buttons and 4 of these are repetitions. a waste of space that can be used for something else.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

I wouldn't have the pet attack automatically, for the simple fact that it takes up space in its queue, so then all commands would have a delay.

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I wonder, could this be solved by making the attack an instant? Like SCH's Ruin 2, for example. Code its other abilities as oGCDs. That would solve this problem entirely, wouldn't it?

Like get on SCH and put a dipping bird on your Ruin 2 key so it's pressed every GCD (or just spam that button while you're doing...), then hit your oGCDs (Protraction, Aetherflow abilities, etc). The game's quing system tends to fire them off immediately after an instant cast spell. The spacing then would only be the animation lock of the oGCDs themselves, which isn't any worse than using oGCDs that come from your character, so it seems like that should workout the problem.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

... so it seems like that should workout the problem.

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If, as you say, there are no problems, then I don't see anything wrong with letting the pet attack. What I don't want is that for a little automatic attack you risk having unresponsiveness and ghosting. The complexity of the smn shouldn't be based on the technical limitations on which the game is based. It would just be a terrible design

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

If, as you say, there are no problems, then I don't see anything wrong with letting the pet attack. What I don't want is that for a little automatic attack you risk having unresponsiveness and ghosting. The complexity of the smn shouldn't be based on the technical limitations on which the game is based. It would just be a terrible design

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But wait a minute that doesn't make sense. What you are talking about is old summoner where such actions were like the scholar's fairy where the fairy would still be present and perform the action and potentially cause the ghosting.

But when you use a gem or a demi, the game first does an automatic dismiss pet action of carbuncle, then the game automatically summons a gem or demi, then the gem/demi does its thing for the alloted amount of time it has, then the game does an automatic unsummon, then the game performs an instant cast version of summon carbuncle as it appears right next to the player and does not conflict with the player's gcd cooldowns.

Wyrmwave and Scarlet Flame are not like the old pet actions as it does these actions automatically every 1.5 seconds while in combat. It will not use Wyrmwave or Scarlet Flame when it has 1 second left on the duration timer, but it will do the action when there is 2 seconds left. As these are instant actions with no cast time that the pet performs.

And the purposed thing was to have Carbuncle have automatic ranged magical attacks every 1.5 seconds. So there should just be a simple bit of code that tells the carbuncle not to use its automatic attack, lets call it Gemblast, if Summon Bahamut/Phoenix/Ifrit/Titan/ or Garuda is actively queued in the actions.