Is there too much soy in this game's community

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

You conflated them. At me. Called my part “bs” saying it’s used to justify the other. This is all on you making a mountain out of a molehill. Trying to fight multiple fronts. Point the finger at yourself

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Please, re-read my posts. I never once said your part was bs. Please clam down.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

But people need to grow a spine. Get thicker skin. Not every criticism is a personal attack or life ending. But the community, at least the vocal community is starting to swing their reactions in that direction. Simultaneously acting with a behaviour they claim they are fighting against

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I pity the son or daughter who is taught that "a spine" or "thicker skin" is the answer to verbal abuse. "Just ignore it, it will go away" is very poor advice.

If one truly believes in that nonsense about "thicker skin", a negative reaction to criticism should be brushed off as well. Yet, a negative reaction to what one might consider a valid point appears to wound the critic.

While it is true that "not every criticism is a personal attack", not every reaction to criticism is unwarranted. In the same manner one advises others to "grow a spine", perhaps they should be taking that advice to heart. Except that it is poor advice to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Please, re-read my posts. I never once said your part was bs. Please clam down.

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Reread it. Found it for you.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

All of this "you can't say anything anymore" bullshit is actually a thinly veiled attempt to censor people who disagree with backwards views. It's telling 'the woke' to shut up and put up with bigotry.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Reread it. Found it for you.

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And where did I say that's directed at you? It's actually directed at the TC, and the argument I was countering. The argument I was saying you shouldn't conflate with constructive criticism.

If you're only arguing about constructive criticism, then that doesn't apply to you.
Are you saying it does?

You've misunderstood and misrepresented me, several times now, and got offended every time.
You're right. You really do have to walk on eggshells around here.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I pity the son or daughter who is taught that "a spine" or "thicker skin" is the answer to verbal abuse. "Just ignore it, it will go away" is very poor advice.

If one truly believes in that nonsense about "thicker skin", a negative reaction to criticism should be brushed off as well. Yet, a negative reaction to what one might consider a valid point appears to wound the critic.

While it is true that "not every criticism is a personal attack", not every reaction to criticism is unwarranted. In the same manner one advises others to "grow a spine", perhaps they should be taking that advice to heart. Except that it is poor advice to begin with.

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Not everything is verbal abuse. That’s a key part of this. Criticism is valid and can be used to grow. Just because it hurts your feelings or makes you uncomfortable doesn’t equate it to abuse.

People don’t like being made feel negative. But it’s how we handle it and what we do with it. Treat all criticism as abuse and let it consume you, then what you were criticized on will always be there. Instead learn from it. Grow from it. As per my earlier example; stop standing in the bad in duties and the team progresses easier. Or keep standing in the bad and blame the healer for your own shortcomings you aren’t mentally or emotionally equipped to deal with

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

And where did I say that's directed at you? It's actually directed at the TC, and the argument I was countering. The argument I was saying you shouldn't conflate with constructive criticism.

If you're only arguing about constructive criticism, then that doesn't apply to you.
Are you saying it does?

You've misunderstood and misrepresented me, several times now, and got offended every time.
You're right. You really do have to walk on eggshells around here.

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I pulled the quote from your response to me. Swallow your pride

Ladies and gentlemen, the true villain; Miscommunication.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

There's a world of difference between taking offence at someone trying to help you with constructive criticism, and taking offence at a blatantly racist joke.

The fact is, if people don't like what you're saying, they're allowed to disagree with you.
All of this "you can't say anything anymore" bullshit is actually a thinly veiled attempt to censor people who disagree with backwards views. It's telling 'the woke' to shut up and put up with bigotry.

Meanwhile players who get constructive criticism for their performance, and take it badly, are likely that way because they've become used to other players being aggressive and judgemental. As I said, these are actually entirely opposite issues. Players get defensive about their performance because of aggressive, highly competitive players who try to police everything.
They shouldn't get defensive about constructive criticism, but they shouldn't have to get defensive either.

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Nah people are snowflakes if constructive criticism upsets them that much. Also weird you say people are policing performance and you are here trying to police how people talk. You,nor anyone can control what people say so no point in trying.Perhaps try not being offended at every little thing. Shrug it off and move on. Most people in life you will have limited interactions anyways.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Back in Heavensward and Stormblood you can insult people and mock them and they'll just insult and mock you back. Banter, friendly or unfriendly, was the norm.

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Not my experience. At all. Insults and mockery are reportable offenses. That the OP did not experience a ban for such behavior probably speaks more against the players they associated with. I have observed that behaviors such as described above do tend to be the norm for First Person Shooters and MOBAs.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Not everything is verbal abuse ... Or keep standing in the bad and blaim the healer for your own shortcomings you aren’t mentally or emotionally equipped to deal with

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A classic example of ignoring the fact that what one says is verbal abuse. At least we know exactly what the writer thinks about people who do not follow their advice.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Not my experience. At all. Insults and mockery are reportable offenses. That the OP did not experience a ban for such behavior probably speaks more against the players they associated with. I have observed that behaviors such as described above do tend to be the norm for First Person Shooters and MOBAs.



A classic example of ignoring the fact that what one says is verbal abuse. At least we know exactly what the writer thinks about people who do not follow their advice.

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It’s not about how they follow advice. It’s about their reaction to anything non positive. You demonstrated part of the problem. You misrepresented the comment.

If you melt down over criticism, you aren’t equipped to deal with it.

Had nothing to do with not following orders

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

It’s not about how they follow advice. It’s about their reaction to anything non positive. You demonstrated part of the problem. You misrepresented the comment.

If you melt down over criticism, you aren’t equipped to deal with it.

Had nothing to do with not following orders

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I just roll my eyes at most of the people on the forums. They're always trying to spin it

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I pity the son or daughter who is taught that "a spine" or "thicker skin" is the answer to verbal abuse. "Just ignore it, it will go away" is very poor advice.

If one truly believes in that nonsense about "thicker skin", a negative reaction to criticism should be brushed off as well. Yet, a negative reaction to what one might consider a valid point appears to wound the critic.

While it is true that "not every criticism is a personal attack", not every reaction to criticism is unwarranted. In the same manner one advises others to "grow a spine", perhaps they should be taking that advice to heart. Except that it is poor advice to begin with.

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Thicker skin more so means you cannot control how others speak or react towards you. All you have control over is how you choose to respond to the verbal abuse. The truth is as a person you are the one that gives verbal abuse power, not the one slinging it at you.

The ToS has become weaponized. Why risk an account on banter or, god forbid, telling the blm that flare exists. It's not that hard to figure out, lol.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...1616/image.png

You just have to do it in an incredibly two faced and backhanded way while maintaining the illusion of a warm and inviting community.

There are certainly situations when the 'thicker skin' approach can be helpful, especially if you combine that with taking on constructive and well-meaning criticism. But at the same time, its unhealthy to use that as a blanket response. If someone is being a bigot to you or actively offensive, you should have every right to call them out on it. No one should be forced to ‘grin and bare’ bullying. Plus its important to understand that not everyone can/should take such ‘humour’ as just jestful boasts. Empathy is not a weakness.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Not everything is verbal abuse. That’s a key part of this. Criticism is valid and can be used to grow. Just because it hurts your feelings or makes you uncomfortable doesn’t equate it to abuse.

People don’t like being made feel negative. But it’s how we handle it and what we do with it. Treat all criticism as abuse and let it consume you, then what you were criticized on will always be there. Instead learn from it. Grow from it. As per my earlier example; stop standing in the bad in duties and the team progresses easier. Or keep standing in the bad and blame the healer for your own shortcomings you aren’t mentally or emotionally equipped to deal with

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This one hundred percent. Well said. If people truly dont want to learn and grow you can’t do anything for them. People that stubborn need to seek help but probably won’t.

Sort of related, people around me smoke cigarettes. It has long term effects and its a costly addiction. I advise them they would feel and do much better if they quit but they wont. Obviously they dont like my advice and still do it.

Gen Z started playing online games and ruined everything.

Aww yiisss Skiros is back!!

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

It’s not about how they follow advice. It’s about their reaction to anything non positive. You demonstrated part of the problem. You misrepresented the comment

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I stand corrected. The phrase "As per my earlier example; stop standing in the bad in duties and the team progresses easier. Or keep standing in the bad and blame the healer for your own shortcomings you aren’t mentally or emotionally equipped to deal with" is not about ignoring advice. It is the opinion of the writer for anyone who dares to respond to that criticism ... except in this case, there wasn't any response to criticism mentioned.

Personally, I do not find it so easy to dismiss players using "you aren't mentally or emotionally equipped". Perhaps that is the way the writer copes. After all, "People don’t like being made feel negative. But it’s how we handle it and what we do with it."

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I mean, one anal person making a comment like that, isn't a sign that the whole community has changed.

That said, not everyone is going to like it when you blatantly insult them and call it banter... TC.

"Wah! Why can't I be racist, sexist and homophobic anymore!"
I mean, it's not that you can't, it's just that people feel empowered to not take that kind of shit without calling it out anymore. Free speech is like that, people are free to disagree with what you say.

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I think what the person meant is that people don't have the backbone anymore of taking a insult and whine and cry about it. People need to grow some thick skin and learn how to take jokes once again without feeling insulted. Everyone wants to be serious these days and it isn't a fun world anymore

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Originally Posted by Velvet_Lunarfang

I think what the person meant is that people don't have the backbone anymore of taking a insult and whine and cry about it. People need to grow some thick skin and learn how to take jokes once again without feeling insulted. Everyone wants to be serious these days and it isn't a fun world anymore

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If this were just about jokes, well. The OP was talking about insults and mockery, which are not jokes. The OP was describing both friendly and unfriendly banter, which are not jokes.

I welcome a response from writers who insist we "learn how to take jokes". Please provide a joke someone else complained about, so that we may interpret your level of pain.

Person who imagines that they're tough:
"Grrr I can't stand all these thin-skinned [latest term sourced from insecure people on 4chan] who get upset as soon as you say something that they don't like!"

Some random person who just wants to chill:
"Hm, I think that I don't like your aggressive and insulting commentaries, regardless of whether you personally find them funny."

Person who imagines that they're tough:
"Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee I don't like hearing that! It's so unfair that people are allowed to say things like that to me these days! Ahhhhhhhhhh"

...and then they invite Elon Musk on-stage, for unclear reasons.

If people were actually as tough as they think they are, they'd say something like: "Oh, I guess what I like isn't comfortable for other people. I'll just have to learn different behavior when in groups of strangers." That's some hardcore stoicism right there!

But instead, they actually bruise like overripe plums, or children being told that playtime is over, as soon as someone tells them, "Hey, actually, those verbal or behavioral habits that you've developed have been reconsidered in a new light, and aren't deemed okay any more in general company. Maybe save it for your private friends group. Or, perhaps, develop your personality beyond adolescence."

Also, the "Gosh, you used to be able to say anything!" crowd often tends to become miraculously more accepting of policing language expression when it's time to criticise positive commentary about a minority or other faction that they happen to personally dislike.

So, mostly, this seems to come from people who are actually upset that the world is giving them fewer and fewer sanctioned outlets for their questionable urge to constantly aggress everyone around them.

If you really can't understand why the way that you talk to your closed friends group is not acceptable when talking with total strangers who might come from all kinds of other perspectives, situations, and walks of life, then... I don't know man, I don't think other people is the real problem here.

And here I am not noticing a change at all in tat respect. Find better people to be around maybe? Maybe it's what is being said specifically? Idk but I'm not worried about ToS when I'm joking with folks

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I stand corrected. The phrase "As per my earlier example; stop standing in the bad in duties and the team progresses easier. Or keep standing in the bad and blame the healer for your own shortcomings you aren’t mentally or emotionally equipped to deal with" is not about ignoring advice. It is the opinion of the writer for anyone who dares to respond to that criticism ... except in this case, there wasn't any response to criticism mentioned.

Personally, I do not find it so easy to dismiss players using "you aren't mentally or emotionally equipped". Perhaps that is the way the writer copes. After all, "People don’t like being made feel negative. But it’s how we handle it and what we do with it."

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You seem to coping yourself or have a hero complex where you feel the need to protect everyone. If a player is given advice which they choose to ignore or snap back at it they really aren’t equipped to handle interactions. Its not rude to say.

What I can and will say on this matter is that I would rather people use proper etiquette, and to be courteous and respectful towards each other. "Treat those how you wish to be treated." was something taught to me at a very early age. As far back as I can remember many people are aware of this form of decorum, and equally as many fail to put it to practice or lose their composure when emotional levels heighten. I'm no saint, and I'm guilty of it as well.

Woke agendas, politics, and a whole array of -isms are things I wish would never make it into the interactions that take place in the game while online. However, the internet is a place that has an abundance of all of those. The internet is a virtual version of the world at large, and there is a lot of beauty to found on it as well. However, a set of heavy armor is required if you wish to spend time on it, but compassion should lie underneath it all. Many minds that have been conditioned differently from one to the next, and that is why it is all the more important to look back on the phrase I started this post with, and to do your best to keep your emotions in check. A little bit of empathy goes a long way.

There is nothing but soy cause I ate all the Alpha! MUWAHAHAHA!

Can you blame me though? I just saw him hanging out with the tiny Omega and I was hungry so I had some fried chicken.

He WAS finger-licking good.

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Originally Posted by Nyxs

You seem to coping yourself or have a hero complex where you feel the need to protect everyone. If a player is given advice which they choose to ignore or snap back at it they really aren’t equipped to handle interactions. Its not rude to say.

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Pretty keen on psychoanalyzing someone you've never met. That appears to be the typical methodology of those who buy into the "get a spine" pseudo-rhetoric.

Is all of the above meaningless blather necessary to justify your last sentence? You could have made your point just as easily without the pseudo-insult at the beginning.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Pretty keen on psychoanalyzing someone you've never met. That appears to be the typical methodology of those who buy into the "get a spine" pseudo-rhetoric.

Is all of the above meaningless blather necessary to justify your last sentence? You could have made your point just as easily without the pseudo-insult at the beginning.

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Projecting

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Projecting

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You might be right. A piece starting with "You seem to [be] coping yourself or have a hero complex" does seem like projection to me too.

As for my full reply, the following statement "If a player is given advice which they choose to ignore or snap back at it they really aren’t equipped to handle interactions. Its not rude to say." does not require a pseudo-insult at the beginning. Want to insist that any such statements must be prepended? For what reason?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

If this were just about jokes, well. The OP was talking about insults and mockery, which are not jokes. The OP was describing both friendly and unfriendly banter, which are not jokes.

I welcome a response from writers who insist we "learn how to take jokes". Please provide a joke someone else complained about, so that we may interpret your level of pain.

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All of The Simpson's characters are based on stereotypes. Stereotypes people can find offensive. Yet, it's still labelled a comedy. South Park openly mocks everything under the sun, bound to say something someone finds offensive or insulting, yet it is still a comedy. Dave Chapelle, Amy Schumer, and Chris Rock are all comedians that rely on mocking certain groups and situations, yet they are still considered comedians. It's almost as if comedy is subjective. So maybe you should stop trying to police what is and isn't a joke when humour is subjective.

As Rowan Atkinson has said; "Every joke has a victim, whether fictional or non-fictional or notional, ideological or human and, therefore, there's always someone suffering if there's a joke. I suppose you have to accept that's the way it is".

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

If this were just about jokes, well. The OP was talking about insults and mockery, which are not jokes. The OP was describing both friendly and unfriendly banter, which are not jokes.

I welcome a response from writers who insist we "learn how to take jokes". Please provide a joke someone else complained about, so that we may interpret your level of pain.

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there are comedians out there that make jokes like this all of the time even 20 to 30 years ago. It was something like called being human. We all have defects etc and it's funny. That's what comedy has always been about then people go to thin skinned and forgot what it was like to laugh

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Originally Posted by Velvet_Lunarfang

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

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Two replies, neither of which contains a joke told by them in-game that resulted in a complaint by the listener/reader.

Is it because such jokes, when written in the forums, wouldn't sound so funny? It is more likely that the two respondents haven't actually told such jokes.

A lesson in "what is comedy" isn't what I was after. I've probably told jokes for more years than the both of you combined.

Thanks for playing.

People have a very bad habit of perceiving malice via text when none is intended. Absent vocal and body language cues that would otherwise make intent fairly obvious, text exists in a vacuum wherein people are much more able to misinterpret things as inherently aggressive or demeaning, often times regardless of surrounding context. This predilection makes common activities such as light-heartedly teasing an acquaintance much riskier than they would be in person or voice chat. It also makes any form of meaningful online debate very difficult to carry out, as one or more parties will frequently assume bad faith far too readily.

People also have a bad habit of putting too much stock in what other people think. You are responsible for your own feelings; if someone hurts them, that's a you thing. The same is true of one's own self-confidence. That isn't something others can give or take away unless you let them.

Tl;dr: words are words, and they only have as much power as you give them.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Two replies, neither of which contains a joke told by them in-game that resulted in a complaint by the listener/reader.

Is it because such jokes, when written in the forums, wouldn't sound so funny? It is more likely that the two respondents haven't actually told such jokes.

A lesson in "what is comedy" isn't what I was after. I've probably told jokes for more years than the both of you combined.

Thanks for playing.

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Probably more so because
1: examples of comedians who tell “offensive” jokes were given

2: examples of “offensive” comedy media were given

3: you’d be quick to hit report to one up them. Better to incite a ban than to discuss with people who disagree with you

You ask for a joke specifically. I believe with malicious intent while already being provided suitable examples to the discussion

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

A lesson in "what is comedy" isn't what I was after. I've probably told jokes for more years than the both of you combined.

Thanks for playing.

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Hm, you want to police speech and comedy and yet you make an ageist comment towards me and someone else. See how easy it is to slip into offensive statements? All it takes is saying something that you maybe find completely innocent that someone else finds offensive. So maybe we should stop trying to police what everyone else is saying and instead learn to be a strong person and move on.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

Hm, you want to police speech and comedy and yet you make an ageist comment towards me and someone else. See how easy it is to slip into offensive statements? All it takes is saying something that you maybe find completely innocent that someone else finds offensive. So maybe we should stop trying to police what everyone else is saying and instead learn to be a strong person and move on.

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Offensive statement? It is a conjectural statement which you perceive as ageist. So yeah, those people who complain about jokes in-game have a point, right?

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

You ask for a joke specifically. I believe with malicious intent while already being provided suitable examples to the discussion

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And here we arrive at the crux of the matter. If someone has to fear telling a joke in the forums because they would be reported, why do they believe it's ok to do so in-game, where a much broader spectrum of players may encounter their attempts at humor. If the only "jokes" one can tell are decidedly offensive, why the whining about not being able to tell them in-game?

Here's a joke for you: Why did the chicken cross the road? Because the pedestrian bridge was closed.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

All of The Simpson's characters are based on stereotypes. Stereotypes people can find offensive. Yet, it's still labelled a comedy. South Park openly mocks everything under the sun, bound to say something someone finds offensive or insulting, yet it is still a comedy. Dave Chapelle, Amy Schumer, and Chris Rock are all comedians that rely on mocking certain groups and situations, yet they are still considered comedians. It's almost as if comedy is subjective. So maybe you should stop trying to police what is and isn't a joke when humour is subjective.

As Rowan Atkinson has said; "Every joke has a victim, whether fictional or non-fictional or notional, ideological or human and, therefore, there's always someone suffering if there's a joke. I suppose you have to accept that's the way it is".

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What makes a giant difference imo is wether as comedian you are trying to punch up or kick down.

Trolling aside I used to praise WoW's forums and community for being more grizzled and able to take a joke. Now...we're the grizzled veterans. This forum is truly the wild west.