Please bring back Kaiten

All this drama over Kaiten when we should be pouring one out for Seigan.

RIP in pizza nifty little counter attack animation, you will be missed.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

All this drama over Kaiten when we should be pouring one out for Seigan.

RIP in pizza nifty little counter attack animation, you will be missed.

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Who’s Seigan? Is he pretty too?

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

Who’s Seigan? Is he pretty too?

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Karl? Wasn't he an astrologian?

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

Who’s Seigan? Is he pretty too?

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Seigan? I barly know her.

Give Kaiten to it's rightful owner (MCH) plzzz....!!!!

What a Read! Well Now I'm in the mood to explain:
Kaiten was the First Skill that Introduced the Kenki Resource to the Samurai, automaticly labelling the Kenki Resource to boost your Weaponskills, for just 20 Kenki. They also added Shinten and Kyuten in order to skim off excess Kenki. There was a remarkable Interation with Iaijutsu and Kenki, thanks to Kaiten. Well that Aspect is now gone. Kenki feels needlessly tagged on in comparison, you could claim that "DRG's Life Surge does the same as Kaiten", yeah but does Life Surge was Dragon Gauge Interactivity? No, it's on a 40second cool down with 2 charges.. lol, meanwhile Samurai had to keep 20 Kenki for every next Midare Setsugekka (and additionally Higanbana and Cone Tenka Goken) to hit BIG and it felt so Good! Now without Kaiten.. How does the Samurai Rotation look like? What are you using Kenki for? Do you spam Shinten like a Bitch?

oh, they moved this from gen discussion to the dps forum. well, better than just outright deleting it, i suppose.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Ya, outside of trials and some dungeons there's rarely instances anymore where there is forced downtime with an untargatable boss, especially in savage fights. Those skills have been losing their purpose since 5.0 lol.

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Hagakure has to go first.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Kaiten will not come back.

It's too difficult to balance the job when the off-GCD damage ressource interacts with the GCD damage in such a way.

You have to make sure that Shinten spam is always stronger than Kaiten spam while at the same time Shinten spam is always weaker than using Kaiten in specific situations.

What that means is that when they have to increase SAMs dps they can't simply increase the potency of the combo finishers and be done with it because it could happen that Kaiten on the combo finisher would become stronger than using Shinten. So they have to increase the potency of Shinten. But they have to make sure that Shinten does not become Stronger than Kaiten on your 3-Sticker-Attack.
Plus they have backed themself into a corner when it comes to adding new skills.

So what could they do? Kaiten interacts only with that one other skill? Sounds like the button bloat they said they wanted to remove when they took Kaiten away.

The mistake was to remove Kaiten mid-expansion with nothing new to add to the gameplay for another 2 years, not that they removed Kaiten in general.

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What in the...

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Originally Posted by Coatl

FF14 Community explaining why your DPS job can't have more than 1 button.

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There's the based take, thank god for this one

This Kaiten thread was apparently moved from " General Discussion ".

Alas, you'll receive enough hot-takes in the DPS section from players who don't even play the Jobs they are giving hot-takes on, nor played any jobs into High-End content to give constructive feedback. Let alone the General section posters that mostly don't give a F about any Jobs Gameplay.

The vast majority care about GlamourDresser/Fashion/Housing/Race-Hair issues and other problems that will rarely have their root problems fixed/addressed ever because Square equally doesn't give a F. Bashing Third-Party tool usage like religious zealots, when they themselves probably use BDTH, Anam, Pen and Mare. While defending Square and especially Yoshi from nearly any scrutiny when it comes to Job gameplay that they again don't give a F about, unless of course if it's about " MSQ " of which half probably can't even read properly let alone the tool-kits. Don't worry, they probably have an island somewhere to give 100x more the in-depth feedback on about when it accounts less then 0.1% of FFXIV's entire content.

The Lazier the Better.
Both the community who want to put in the least amount of effort for maximum instant gratification and Square who were lazy about keeping Kaiten to make it all more shallow. Thanks... I guess? We won't get improved gameplay, just simplified and homogenized Jobs. Changed and Reworked until every job lost something, chipping bits and pieces off of each one until its unrecognizable. I say like that is something that might happen but then again it already has. Will it be better? who knows cause who cares, community doesn't care enough and Square doesn't either, as long its Lazier and easier.

" Please look forward to it " Square will say
" Give it a try " Yoshi will say
" Give us feedback " they'll say

Important is to never forget that we gave Square our feedback, and Kaiten removal sucked

I mentioned in another thread to not mock players who will have their favorite Job be next on Square's chopping block. To not be heard sucks. If you have empathy? share your voice to them. Though General Discussion posters don't have that passion for any Job's gameplay cause they generally do not care. The bar to set by most of them for caring for Job gameplay is at " Square please drag my dead body through the finish lines of any content, kthnx ".

Hot-takes equally met with a horrible Hot-take. Call it even <3

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

Hagakure has to go first.

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ABSOLUTELY NOT!

They removed it in ShB for a short time and it was horrible. Do not ever get rid of my ability to reset my stickers and gain some kenki out of it. Its uses are niche and mostly in dungeons, but I never want that skill removed again.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Why? It's one of the integral part of their kit to keep their rotation looping properly.

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This too. Its necessary filler if you're running 2.14 GCD.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

Hagakure has to go first.

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Why? It's one of the integral part of their kit to keep their rotation looping properly.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Why? It's one of the integral part of their kit to keep their rotation looping properly.

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because most players are apparently idiots who barely know what buttons to press let alone what they do

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Originally Posted by Tint

Kaiten will not come back.

It's too difficult to balance the job when the off-GCD damage ressource interacts with the GCD damage in such a way.

You have to make sure that Shinten spam is always stronger than Kaiten spam while at the same time Shinten spam is always weaker than using Kaiten in specific situations.

What that means is that when they have to increase SAMs dps they can't simply increase the potency of the combo finishers and be done with it because it could happen that Kaiten on the combo finisher would become stronger than using Shinten. So they have to increase the potency of Shinten. But they have to make sure that Shinten does not become Stronger than Kaiten on your 3-Sticker-Attack.
Plus they have backed themself into a corner when it comes to adding new skills.

So what could they do? Kaiten interacts only with that one other skill? Sounds like the button bloat they said they wanted to remove when they took Kaiten away.

The mistake was to remove Kaiten mid-expansion with nothing new to add to the gameplay for another 2 years, not that they removed Kaiten in general.

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1: Yes, but not because it was bad, but because SE's decided it needs to go, and had no intention of bringing it back, as evidenced by the amount of outcry about it's removal and the subsequent silence from SE about it

2: No? They managed it in SHB well enough.

3: Yes? That's how 'balancing a job's damage output' works, and they managed it in SHB.

4/5: See 3. They also added 3 skills in SHB that didn't get screwed by 'oh you have to make sure Kaiten's more efficient than Shinten spam'. It's nothing to do with Kaiten's potency, but it's 'potency per kenki ratio'. If Kaiten-Midare works out to be 12 potency per Kenki, and Shinten works out to be 10p per kenki, then 'use Kaiten on Midare, use Shinten to avoid overcap' is the gameplay. Add a new skill that is a 40s CD, costs 40 kenki, and does 500p damage. Wow, it works out to be 12.5 potency per kenki, therefore higher priority than both Kaiten-Midare and Shinten. So you'd pool kenki ahead of this new move, so you don't lose out on Kaiten Midares.

6: If they had replaced Kaiten with something, it'd hurt a little less. But the issue is, the removal of Kaiten turned the Kenki meter into the Shinten meter. Senei (costs 25) and Ikishoten (gives 50) both are 2min CDs, so they naturally line up. If SE wanted to remove 'button bloat', they could change Senei from 'costs 25' to 'grants 25', 'grants Ogi ready' and just delete Ikishoten. Or combine Shoha and Shoha2. Unless they mean it was APM bloat, in which case they're even less aware than expected, as we still have the same Kenki income. We just use it on Shinten now instead of Kaiten. The APM hasn't changed.

Kaiten's removal was not necessary. If SE couldn't work out how to 'fix issues that Kaiten caused', it's not Kaiten was impossible to work around, it's because the devs have run out of creativity to the point where they can't design around something as simple as Kaiten. Not a good sign for class design going forward.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

They removed it in ShB for a short time and it was horrible. Do not ever get rid of my ability to reset my stickers and gain some kenki out of it. Its uses are niche and mostly in dungeons, but I never want that skill removed again.

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They don't have to remove it, and removing it back when it was actually more useful was weird, but there's no way Meditate is more niche/obsolete.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Why? It's one of the integral part of their kit to keep their rotation looping properly.

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Integral is a bit of a stretch. I bet even Ransu wouldn't mind if they swapped it out with Kaiten.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

They don't have to remove it, and removing it back when it was actually more useful was weird, but there's no way Meditate is more niche/obsolete. / Integral is a bit of a stretch. I bet even Ransu wouldn't mind if they swapped it out with Kaiten.

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Square's excuse to remove Kaiten was Button Bloat
Excuse was too many buttons, hokay. I'm sure as a fellow Samurai main that you are, you already know Square could have done any or all of the following...

• Merging Shoha/Shoha II
• Fusing Senei/Guren
• Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri
• Iaijutsu turning into Tsubame

This to keep Kaiten and Samurai gameplay the same, while having space to add for more in the future. It's essentially near unanimous when it comes to bringing back Kaiten.

Insinuating Hakagure has a prio on the list to be removed? Means you want Samurai to be less flexible in fixing its loop if it goes south. Not every fight is the same and not in every moment can you Yaten+Enpi a filler, backdashing into something detrimental to keep the loop going... I'm sure players know the concept of Filler, and Yaten Enpi... or Loop for that matter (I have no faith anyone will know honestly)

Meditate isn't as obsolete either to be on the list. FFXIV has enough content where Meditate can be used in Extreme's / Savage even Ultimate's because of Downtime. It be even better to QOL update Meditate to have it refresh Fugetsu and Fuka buffs... I'm sure players also knows what those buffs do (they fkn dont )

Even then? no Kaiten no Button bloat. Right? for what? where's this " new replacing skill " we're supposed to be getting that made this Kaiten's abysmal removal so necessary? There's just no Excuse other then " we are Lazy ". And if you think that's funny, that's just 1 button were talking about at least people view it as 1 button. I'd feel worried for when its about more then just 1 button for any Job, amirite?

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

Integral is a bit of a stretch. I bet even Ransu wouldn't mind if they swapped it out with Kaiten.

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It is part of the current rotation if your SkS is at 2.14 GCD. You'll disrupt your 2 min loop without it. It slipped my mind in my initial response.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Square's excuse to remove Kaiten was Button Bloat
Excuse was too many buttons, hokay. I'm sure as a fellow Samurai main that you are, you already know Square could have done any or all of the following...

• Merging Shoha/Shoha II
• Fusing Senei/Guren
• Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri
• Iaijutsu turning into Tsubame

This to keep Kaiten and Samurai gameplay the same, while having space to add for more in the future. It's essentially near unanimous when it comes to bringing back Kaiten.

Insinuating Hakagure has a prio on the list to be removed? Means you want Samurai to be less flexible in fixing its loop if it goes south. Not every fight is the same and not in every moment can you Yaten+Enpi a filler, backdashing into something detrimental to keep the loop going... I'm sure players know the concept of Filler, and Yaten Enpi... or Loop for that matter (I have no faith anyone will know honestly)

Meditate isn't as obsolete either to be on the list. FFXIV has enough content where Meditate can be used in Extreme's / Savage even Ultimate's because of Downtime. It be even better to QOL update Meditate to have it refresh Fugetsu and Fuka buffs... I'm sure players also knows what those buffs do (they fkn dont )

Even then? no Kaiten no Button bloat. Right? for what? where's this " new replacing skill " we're supposed to be getting that made this Kaiten's abysmal removal so necessary? There's just no Excuse other then " we are Lazy ". And if you think that's funny, that's just 1 button were talking about at least people view it as 1 button. I'd feel worried for when its about more then just 1 button for any Job, amirite?

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It was less so button bloat and more so "action" bloat, but yes button bloat could easily be solved by merging a lot of pointlessly split skills that could just straight up be aoe/cone attacks with a potency dropoff per enemy hit.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

It was less so button bloat and more so "action" bloat, but yes button bloat could easily be solved by merging a lot of pointlessly split skills that could just straight up be aoe/cone attacks with a potency dropoff per enemy hit.

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I agree.

The reason I say " Button Bloat " is because Square stated and worded it as the excuse. I go purely off of their own words.

If we say it could have been mistranslations or wrong context means we're going into assumptions and speculations outside of Square's stated words. Like that it instead could have meant " Action Bloat " or APM (CPM), meaning the following...

• Intention of Kaiten removal is to reduce APM
• Yet its removal didn't reduce APM
• While we aren't even the highest APM job

There's so many things that doesn't add up here and it stems from Square's excuse that was Bullsht no matter how we want to spin it mhm. But at least Kaiten will be replaced with something so we can " look forward to it " eventually... at some point... some time... some day...

Not This Shit AGAIN!!!
by merging Shoha I with Shoha II you religate the Connected Resources to one sole Skill and remove the Players' Agency of Decision Making of Single Target OR AoE

It's a Part of the Samurai's Job Identity just like Kaiten was and just like the Devs removed Kaiten YOU want to remove another Aspect of the Samurai and dumbing down the Job that 'You Love' even more just so you can argue to get your precious Kaiten Back.

But Guess What! You want do not want to make a decision, you only want to spent Meditation Stacks and your 2 Minute Burst on One Button Each..

You know Dragoons exists, right? they do not have to make a decision just press Geirskogul every time and Wyrmwind Thrust does the exact same, That's what you want with Samurai Right?! The Only difference of DRG and SAM after your suggested Changes would be that Samurai spend his resources on Circle AoEs and the DRG on Line AoEs

If you really want to "merge skills" so badly, merge the skills that are truly repetitious:
Tsubamegaeshi: Since Endwalker it doesn't contribute to Meditation Stacks, so it got removed from that Resource Management and it also doesn't interact with Ogi since Ogi has it's own Tsubamegaeshi build in, My Proposal for Skill Merger: Merge Tsubamegaeshi into Iaijutsu, which makes Iaijutsu may look similar to Ogi with the difference that you always work towards Iaijutsu and thus you do not have to wait for it unlike Ogi.

I documented the SAM's Kit, I listened to Good Suggestions from Samurai Players (like turning Ikishoten into WAR's Infuriate that turns Shinten into Senei and Kyuten into Guren, since Ikishoten aswell as Senei and Guren are on a 2min cd anyway!) I analysed the Reason for EVERY SKILL OF THE SAMURAI FOR MONTHS only to see this Community's Ignorance!? and Hey you're so butthurt because they removed One Skill that you would throw away everything that made you unique? with this way of thinking of course you'll be locked down on using Kenki just to able to Spam Shinten like a Bitch!

I want Kaiten back aswell but I will not compromise on the Identity of the Job that I Love!

We have to agree on some points though:

1. 6.08 was the Peak of Samurai Gameplay
2. Kenki should enable the Samurai Player to take responsibility of optimal Damage Output, not just to spam Shinten like a Bitch
3. Cone Tenka Goken has to return and Iaijutsu always should require a Target, which Circle Tenka doesn't and thus make it feel weak

The Best part about Samurai after 6.1 was definitively PvP
yet in PvE I still suffer and cringe everytime I see those 20 Kenki taunting me in front of every Iaijutsu and Ogi that I do, Oh You know what you could do with those 20 Kenki huh?

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

Not This Shit AGAIN!!!
by merging Shoha I with Shoha II you religate the Connected Resources to one sole Skill and remove the Players' Agency of Decision Making of Single Target OR AoE

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There's barely ever a necessary decision making between AoE and Single target in any content that it matters ( like a valid Enrage ) like there's no picking in Savage literally ever. In Ultimate it has a few but honestly... with exceptions of a few Extreme's and honestly almost rare Dungeon moments with those specific skills.

Do you truly want your Fantasy to come true?
Picking between Single target and AoE choices? here you go here's your solution...

- Kaiten returns
All skills that got buffed are readjusted to compansate for Kaiten's returns. Kenki cost the same 25.

- Samurai Stance button introduced - Tansū shōten / Ōku no shōten
This singular skill button applies 1 of 2 Samurai stances where it changes skills from Single target to AoE. This Skill has a 1 second cooldown and can be weaved as fast as you can do Shinten.
Tansū shōten (Singular Focused) = Single target stance
Ōku no shōten (Many focused) = AoE stance
Fun fact: Samurai Stances is an actual practice in the Bushido Art.

- Guren Senei buttons now overlap
Swapped between Tansū shōten and Ōku no shōten stances for ST or AOE

- Shoha and Shoha II buttons now overlap
Swapped between Tansū shōten and Ōku no shōten stances for ST or AOE

- Yukikaze/Kasha/Gekko buttons overlaps with Fuga/Oka/Mangetzu
Swapped between Tansū shōten and Ōku no shōten stances for ST or AOE

- Shinten and Kyuten buttons overlap
Swapped between Tansū shōten and Ōku no shōten stances for ST or AOE

- Meditate Changed
Meditate cooldownis reduced from 60 seconds to 10 seconds
Meditate now refreshes Fugetsu and Fuka buffs, these buffs cannot be generated with Meditate however, you need to have them up to refresh them with Meditate
PS: Cause why not if were asking for a lot anyways?

- Fuga obtainable at lv10
I hate not being able to AoE at low levels as Samurai it just sucks.

- Ikishoten Button turns into Ogi Namikiri
self explanatory

- Iajutsu Button turns into Tsubame-Gaeshi
self explanatory

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All the above mentioned will save you 8 buttons due to compression of Samurai's kit, adding 2 buttons being Kaiten and the Samurai Stance.

Now you truly can immerse in the fantasy of picking between AOE and SINGLE TARGET with a Bonus cause we saved 6 buttons to play around with for the future.

However, personally? I just want Kaiten...

You Know that Kaiten still exists in PvP and it turns Single Target Attacks into AoE, which works for PvP not so much for PvE.
That Stance thing sounds like Sage to me tbh, you would just hammer down the same rotation but it's AoE now.. ehh
also why would you change Kaiten like that? Currently with the Auto Crit on Midare and Ogi Kaiten should turn the next attack into Direct Hit, rewarding Resource Management that way.
Fuga overlapping with Yukikaze WHAT!? Fuga is a Combo Starter Yukikaze is a Combo Ender, I already mentioned that the Idea of merging Shoha I and Shoha II may've come to the fact that the English Translation Team just did not care.
So that Stance Suggestion squanders more than it is contributing but with the Uselessness of Kenki the Devs may gut everything about the Samurai due to too many conflicting demanding voices.
that Ikishoten suggestion already exists but here again:

/macroicon Ikishoten
/ac Ikisshoten
/ac Ogi Namikiri

that macro does exactly what you're suggesting though we may see a Single Target Ogi in 7.0 anyway

well your suggestion not only saves 8 buttons but it also changes the Samurai and turns into a Sage with a Katana, I'm not sure if that Switch pays off and I doubt it.
+ Stances for DPS are unlikely to be added anyway so what's your points? if you only want Kaiten why do you suggest merging Shoha and Shoha II and Senei and Guren? by merging those skills you disregard decision making behind it and in turn disregard a Part what makes the Samurai a Samurai.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

by merging Shoha I with Shoha II you religate the Connected Resources to one sole Skill and remove the Players' Agency of Decision Making of Single Target OR AoE

It's a Part of the Samurai's Job Identity just like Kaiten was and just like the Devs removed Kaiten [B]YOU want to remove another Aspect of the Samurai and dumbing down the Job that 'You Love' even more just so you can argue to get your precious Kaiten Back.

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Merging skills that share a CD with each other and do literally the same thing is not even remotely the same as kaiten getting removed. For crying aloud when SAM was introduced we only had guren and it was used in both single target and aoe. While I think senei animations is way better, we seriously did not need a single target version of guren. Shoha I and II basically have the same damn animation. There's zero reason for these skills to be split up between single target and aoe and they can straight up do both with a single skill and it is in no way dumbing down the job. That is a beyond idiotic take. The only time aoe's are even used is in dungeons and fates. There's no "decision" being made there.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

But Guess What!You want do not want to make a decision, you only want to spent Meditation Stacks and your 2 Minute Burst on One Button Each..

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What decision? lmao. We still have our aoe rotation, we just wouldn't pointlessly have 4 different skills that share CD's with each other taking up space for no reason other than pointlessly being split between ST and AoE when they could easily be both in a single skill.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

You Know that Kaiten still exists in PvP and it turns Single Target Attacks into AoE, which works for PvP not so much for PvE.
That Stance thing sounds like Sage to me tbh, you would just hammer down the same rotation but it's AoE now.. ehh
also why would you change Kaiten like that?

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First, most threads regarding Job changes are PVE focused. FFXIV PVP is not my interest, telling me to Kaiten in PVP is cop-out. Stance suggestion was to take your fantasy concept and go overboard with it to showcase the ludicrously of it. Square's Button Bloat excuse was the reason for Skill-Kit compression suggestions to bring back Kaiten. Lastly Square buffed many skills due to Kaiten removal. So if Kaiten returns in whichever way that may be? our skills need to be adjusted accordingly again. Now...

YOUR AOE / SINGLE TARGET FANTASY IS IRRELEVENT

Unlike Kaiten, you do not constantly go back and forth to ST to AOE to ST to AOE or vice versa for it to be a heavy decision making in our rotation in any content. Because you don't.

EW Dungeons
You only have Alzadaal's Door mob that spawns more mobs and even here you rather focus the door or AoE everything. No swapping constantly back and forth.

EW Extreme Trials

• Zodiark EX - Spheres/Ball
• Hydaelyn EX - Crystals
• Mount Ordeals EX - Flyer

You use Single target on all of them including the Bosses.

EW Pandæmonium Savage
Asphodelos: 3rd Circle Phoinix - Bird adds ST
Even if you pull the adds to AOE them you still only swap once back to ST no back and forth.

Ultimates
Only UWU has a 3+ target moment. TEA has dolls, but also irrelevant. PS: had to ask the balance discord for this cause I don't do Ultimate.

You can go down further in any content, 99% of it doesn't matter you do not swap back and forth that much in seconds like you make it sound like that is Samurai's identity. Kaiten in comparison? you do all the time consistently. That's why for many or at least for me? I value Kaiten higher then AOE buttons that genuinely are bloat.

We differ in what we value... Agree to Disagree
However... I will not be bashed every time to be told that somehow we swap ST to AOE to the point it matters any content. When I do Fates when I still had Kaiten? yes I swap from Shoha 2 and Guren spamming when there's only 1 mob left form the pack I killed...

But there's literally no situation where you swap back and forth an dback and forth the way you make it sound so important.

https://i.ibb.co/CM52Wfr/ST-AOE-HERPDERP.png

Like no fking Samurai does this in their opener. It's just not a thing... I mean you could but geezus and I would really like to know what content you do high end or not that requires you to swap back and forth and back and forth between ST and AOE so much that gives you the idea it matters so much, I really really do.

I don't really care about Kaiten either way, if it makes you happy sure, add it back, if it doesn't come back, okay whatever.

But. I gotta say:

"Action B is the same thing as Action A, except you press B when you see 3 targets, and A when you see 1 or 2 targets"

is like

the most disappointing thing to see every expansion when I'm looking at new action lists.

Stuff like "Energy Siphon" and "Shoha 2: Cruise Control" makes me literally audibly groan when it pops up in Media Tour previews. It's like eating hot soup for dinner, and then being told that you're having the same soup for dessert, but this time it's chilled.

Especially because > 90% of my time engaging with the game is spent using "Category A" actions, but I have to keep binds for "Category B" actions anyway, entirely because of filler junk pulls that don't even drop loot or have mechanics, but are inserted between real fights in Dungeons and Alliance Raids.

I cannot think of a category of skills that I would care about less if it got wholesale deleted.

To me, it's also quite possibly the single most uninteresting rotational "decision" in the entire game, because the solution is simplistic and always obvious. Tapping a button to swap to my AOE bars, where all the buttons are exactly the same, and the rotation is exactly the same, but now some skills magically hit all the targets... is like, probably the most unskilled decision that I feel like I ever need to make in the game. It requires less effort and thinking than a Crafting macro. It's just busywork.

I understand the mindset of not wanting to sacrifice one ability for another- but in the age of SE purging abilities and pursuing less "button bloat", getting rid of abilities like Shoha II is just a no-brainer in my mind. Even the addition of it being a separate button in the first place had me shocked. To me, Shoha II was incredibly disappointing- I appreciate them trying to make aoe rotations more engaging but... this isn't the way to go.

There is no actual choice between using one or the other, as the situations that prompt the usage of either are very obvious. Honestly, if they just silently removed Shoha II overnight and didn't say a word, I probably wouldn't even notice for quite a while. I might sound a bit harsh, but I do not think anyone, before the release of Endwalker, truly said: "I want a Shoha II and I want it to be a move that's only effective on multiple enemies *and* be a completely separate button from Shoha I that uses the same resource."

Meanwhile, most people held Kaiten so close to the job identity of Samurai that they couldn't even fathom the idea of it being removed... until they did.

Who knows they might have removed Kaiten to make room for Shoha III. Somehow that wouldn't surprise me, and I would not like it

Merging skills that share a CD with each other and do literally the same thing is not even remotely the same as kaiten getting removed. For crying aloud when SAM was introduced we only had guren and it was used in both single target and aoe. While I think senei animations is way better, we seriously did not need a single target version of guren.[/QUOTE]
Nobody prohibited you from just not using Senei. If you hate to make decisions so much I just explained where it's place is.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Shoha I and II basically have the same damn animation. There's zero reason for these skills to be split up between single target and aoe and they can straight up do both with a single skill and it is in no way dumbing down the job. That is a beyond idiotic take.

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Ehh WRONG: Shoha I are 5 Slashes

1. Downward to the Left
2. Downward to the Right
3. Upward to the Left
4. Horizontal to the Right+ 360° Spin Jump
5. Downward to the Right

Shoha II has 4 Slashes

1. Upwards to the Left, almost Vertically
2. Horizontal to the Right+ 360° Spin on the Ground
3. Downward in direction to your left foot
4. Downward in direction to your right foot

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Originally Posted by Ransu

The only time aoe's are even used is in dungeons and fates. There's no "decision" being made there.

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you disregard the decision because you've grown accustomed to it and you stopped thinking about it. I'm accustomed to it aswell though for me I see a Situation and I do the Skills that the Situation asks for. that's the Decision, I have to make.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

What decision? lmao. We still have our aoe rotation, we just wouldn't pointlessly have 4 different skills that share CD's with each other taking up space for no reason other than pointlessly being split between ST and AoE when they could easily be both in a single skill.

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They are a Part of the AoE Rotation, they offer you the ability to utilize the resources for the Situation in Question. Kaiten, also was a decision, to utilize 20 for the next Weaponskill to hit 50% harder, you could just not use it on the biggest Weaponskills that you have and now you can't use it

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

First, most threads regarding Job changes are PVE focused. FFXIV PVP is not my interest, telling me to Kaiten in PVP is cop-out. Stance suggestion was to take your fantasy concept and go overboard with it to showcase the ludicrously of it. Square's Button Bloat excuse was the reason for Skill-Kit compression suggestions to bring back Kaiten. Lastly Square buffed many skills due to Kaiten removal. So if Kaiten returns in whichever way that may be? our skills need to be adjusted accordingly again. Now...

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Well yes 20 Kenki for the Weaponskill to be a Direct Hit, what's the problem with that? Well your Stance Suggestion already exists in PvP right now. You do not want to understand my points, I saw your suggestions and I saw the flaws of them, which why I tell you that your suggestions are already realised in the the Playstyle of the Dragoon. Why am I not seeing that I'm in the wrong, first of all: the Suggestion of turning Ikishoten more into Infuriate so it turns Shinten into Senei and Kyuten into Guren wasn't mine, but I like it, so disregarding this Suggestion is disrespecting xAFROx's Idea. While I see the Solution in there, you just disregarded it since you do not see it since you're so convinced of your ideas being right that you cannot fathom opposition. Even though we both want Kaiten back.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

YOUR AOE / SINGLE TARGET FANTASY IS IRRELEVENT

Unlike Kaiten, you do not constantly go back and forth to ST to AOE to ST to AOE or vice versa for it to be a heavy decision making in our rotation in any content. Because you don't.

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Why are you implying that I go back and forth? I never said anything like that All I want is to have the freedom of choice to utilize all Resources to the given Situation. but if "My AoE/Single Target Fantasy is irrelevant", then what's the point of Hakaze when Fuko exists? and why don't we have an AoE Yukikaze or AoE Midare? hell Higanbana might get it's DoT gutted for somekind of Slashing Debuff (in all seriousness, I do not want that to happen)

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

[B]You can go down further in any content, 99% of it doesn't matter you do not swap back and forth that much in seconds like you make it sound like that is Samurai's identity. Kaiten in comparison?

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I never said anything about swapping back and forth: If there is something to focus, I go Single Target. If I'm in an AoE Situation with nothing to focus, I go AoE. If this is considered going back and forth to you, I'd say you're Ignorant.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

you do all the time consistently. That's why for many or at least for me? I value Kaiten higher then AOE buttons that genuinely are bloat

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How are AoE buttons button bloat when you never use them in Single Target Rotations? With the Exception of Ogi Namikiri, I do not do that either.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

We differ in what we value... Agree to Disagree
However... I will not be bashed every time to be told that somehow we swap ST to AOE to the point it matters any content. When I do Fates when I still had Kaiten? yes I swap from Shoha 2 and Guren spamming when there's only 1 mob left form the pack I killed...

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totally okay by me

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

But there's literally no situation where you swap back and forth an dback and forth the way you make it sound so important.

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you just said that you swap, hypocrite

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

https://i.ibb.co/CM52Wfr/ST-AOE-HERPDERP.png

Like no fking Samurai does this in their opener. It's just not a thing... I mean you could but geezus and I would really like to know what content you do high end or not that requires you to swap back and forth and back and forth between ST and AOE so much that gives you the idea it matters so much, I really really do.

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STOP LAYING WORDS IN MY MOUTH
Admit it, you do not want Kaiten Back, you just want to weaponize opinions. I never said anything about going back and forth! I want to preserve the decision making that Samurai Player has to make, which is to analyse the battlefield and utilize the correct tools in the Samurai's Kit for the Situation in Question, which Kaiten was a Part of. Now to see so many people wanting to remove even more uniqueness to argue a trade for Kaiten is a pathetic Betrail in my Eyes.. which is kinda deserving if you ask me.

I want Kaiten back because I reasoned with it being the Breath of the Samurai.
You told me that you were breathing the Samurai Rotation. Now let me tell you one thing: Without Kaiten, the Samurai Rotation is Shinten Spamming shit.

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Originally Posted by Alice9

I might sound a bit harsh, but I do not think anyone, before the release of Endwalker, truly said: "I want a Shoha II and I want it to be a move that's only effective on multiple enemies *and* be a completely separate button from Shoha I that uses the same resource."

Meanwhile, most people held Kaiten so close to the job identity of Samurai that they couldn't even fathom the idea of it being removed... until they did.

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Hehe, that would be me, when they revealed Endwalker, I looked at the Samurai's Kit and I saw that we can either do a Big AoE or a Bigger Single Target Attack every 2 minutes and we can use the Meditation Stacks for a Single Target Attack.. so why can't we use Meditation Stacks for AoE? because we were not lvl82 xD
Just how Senei was the Single Target Counterpart at lvl72, so was Shoha II the AoE Counterpart to Shoha. Though I wouldn't say that I couldn't fathom the idea of being without Kaiten but I couldn't see the reason of being without Kaiten and after playing the Samurai without Kaiten my mission was clear to oppose this Kaitenlessness by figuring out the reason for Kaiten to exist, which yes Kaiten has to return!

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

Merging skills that share a CD with each other and do literally the same thing is not even remotely the same as kaiten getting removed. For crying aloud when SAM was introduced we only had guren and it was used in both single target and aoe. While I think senei animations is way better, we seriously did not need a single target version of guren.
Nobody prohibited you from just not using Senei. If you hate to make decisions so much I just explained where it's place is.

Ehh WRONG: Shoha I are 5 Slashes

1. Downward to the Left
2. Downward to the Right
3. Upward to the Left
4. Horizontal to the Right+ 360° Spin Jump
5. Downward to the Right

Shoha II has 4 Slashes

1. Upwards to the Left, almost Vertically
2. Horizontal to the Right+ 360° Spin on the Ground
3. Downward in direction to your left foot
4. Downward in direction to your right foot

you disregard the decision because you've grown accustomed to it and you stopped thinking about it. I'm accustomed to it aswell though for me I see a Situation and I do the Skills that the Situation asks for. that's the Decision, I have to make.


They are a Part of the AoE Rotation, they offer you the ability to utilize the resources for the Situation in Question. Kaiten, also was a decision, to utilize 20 for the next Weaponskill to hit 50% harder, you could just not use it on the biggest Weaponskills that you have and now you can't use it

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lmao...

/10char

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

*snip*

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Quite the reply summary to answer zero argument points.

Near all content that requires Area of Effect skills has 0x Enrages. Hence the AOE decision making vs ST is " Irrelevant " across all content for Samurai. Thus I question what High-End content or any content you do that makes you believe AOE vs ST decision making is important?. Cause factually, there is none.

Claim me to be ignorant
Then show me, what content you do that makes you find that decision making to weigh so heavy? Dungeons / Criterion / Extreme's / Savage / Ultimate.

Describe vividly on whatever it is you do in whatever content? to you is heavy decision making regarding AOE. Even after I finished all my Fates where you AOE a s*ht ton... I swear, I have no idea what you're talking about regarding this... decision making that just doesn't exist XD

https://i.ibb.co/xJ4kBY5/Ao-EDecision-Making-Btw.png

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

Not This Shit AGAIN!!!
by merging Shoha I with Shoha II you religate the Connected Resources to one sole Skill and remove the Players' Agency of Decision Making of Single Target OR AoE

It's a Part of the Samurai's Job Identity just like Kaiten was and just like the Devs removed Kaiten YOU want to remove another Aspect of the Samurai and dumbing down the Job that 'You Love' even more just so you can argue to get your precious Kaiten Back.

But Guess What! You want do not want to make a decision, you only want to spent Meditation Stacks and your 2 Minute Burst on One Button Each..

You know Dragoons exists, right? they do not have to make a decision just press Geirskogul every time and Wyrmwind Thrust does the exact same, That's what you want with Samurai Right?! The Only difference of DRG and SAM after your suggested Changes would be that Samurai spend his resources on Circle AoEs and the DRG on Line AoEs

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Warrior: Upheaval/Orogeny(30s CD), Inner Chaos/Chaotic Cyclone(60s CD Infuriate)

Dark Knight: Carve and Spit/Abyssal Drain(60s CD)

Ninja: Hyosho Ranryu/Goka Mekkyaku(60s CD Kassatsu)

Reaper: Soul Slice/Soul Scythe(30s CD)

Black Mage: Xenoglossy/Foul(30s Polyglot)

Summoner: Energy Drain -> x2 Fester/Energy Siphon -> x2 Painflare(60s CD)

The simple decision of pressing a single target action versus an AoE variant of that action which shares its cooldown is not something special to Samurai.

guy's just another troll at this point, i swear

Reminder: If you liked this change, you were not a samurai main. Flat out. This change was made by people who did not have a real feel or love for the class.
There are a million things they could have done to remove button bloat, I'm sitting here with 5 button combos that take up 9 button slots, and realistically it only has to be 5. I see Ishikoten that could share a button with Ogi Namakiri, I see Iaijutsu that could Easily share the same button as Tsubame-geshi.

This change bothers me so much that I've switched off Samurai almost entirely. The changes to the buffs were nice when Endwalker came out, but looking back they were the canary in the coal mine that they didn't really know what they wanted Samurai to be.

https://i.gyazo.com/d6eb5d4436d98229...fa483cc704.png

Just implement autocombos. They're worried about it making the game feel trivial, they can do it where it only unlocks at level cap with class, that would probably fix the issues. But, as it stands, they took an entire resource mechanic and basically invalidated it. Kenki should be removed as a mechanic entirely in its current state, and replaced with a cooldown system for the abilities. They made Hissatsu cost the same across the board, Kaiten was the last bit of decision making in the resource. It just needs to be brought back. There's really no other way to put it, it was the lynch-pin that held Samurai's flow together. Without it, there's just no grace to Samurai. They ripped out every bit of branching in the flow chart besides "Single target, or AOE?" It feels aggravating to play now, and as someone who has played this game since HW, fell in love with it, it just doesn't add up why they'd make this change.

They've opened the door to the class becoming automated: Every kenki move / kenki generating ability can be braindead spammed in the order: BIG HISSATSU -> LITTLE HISSATSU -> IKISHOTEN -> SHOHA (depending on aoe or single target). I bought a mouse with side panel buttons, and will just drag my thumb across these 4 buttons over and over, no longer having to pay attention to my shoha stacks or my kenki. It's just a reflexive movement I've gotten used to, because it's now the optimal way to play samurai: Head empty, don't worry about your kenki, just drag your thumb across 4 buttons in a fight over and over, that's now Samurai peak performance.

So, I just don't play it anymore. I don't play reaper or monk either, it feels like I'm conceding defeat, I've just given up on Melee DPS entirely and am trying out machinist instead.

To everyone who is mad about Kaiten still: Keep being mad. Keep making threads, keep posting, keep airing the grievences (do NOT harass devs or mods, seriously, that's too far and fucked up, won't get anyone anywhere). And anyone who thinks this is a good change, I genuinely kinda feel bad for you. Either you didn't get to play the class in its prime, or you didn't understand what you had when you did.