Paladin Reworks??

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Don't worry, the jobs are boring as sh*t in Savage as well. I'm baffled at who this job design is for, exactly.

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Oh I know, I just mean that I hear people say you can only feel like you're doing something when doing savage

FoF now evolves into Requiescat.
Oath gauge is now used for Atonement.

Congratulations WAR 2.0, you are getting rescued.
Please do not resist.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Don't worry, the jobs are boring as sh*t in Savage as well. I'm baffled at who this job design is for, exactly.

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It's for everyone

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Oh I know, I just mean that I hear people say you can only feel like you're doing something when doing savage

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I raid and it does feel better but... I could be way better, honestly. Personally speaking, the rotations are too static for me.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

FoF now evolves into Requiescat.
Oath gauge is now used for Atonement.

Congratulations WAR 2.0, you are getting rescued.
Please do not resist.

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More like WAR 3.0, they already gut DRK into a WAR with more ogcd's in shadowbringers and double downed on it in Endwalker. I wait to see what they do to PLD with nothing but dread

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I'm not. 2 minute meta is boring and I'd rather them fix that than change PLD to force it into a boring playstyle.

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Let's not discuss the "change 18 jobs rather than changing mine" side of things, and focus on why the 2 minutes meta is good for the game.

A party that has its bursts aligned provides the boss designers with a map of how and when the party, however they may be formed, will burst. Therefore, they can plan to have specific mechanics in off times or in burst times, depending if they want it to be hard or not, impose some solutions, or drive the players to be creative. It also emphases a lot the synergy inside a team, as 8 good players that don't burst at the same time will have a significantly inferior dps than 8 mediocre players that synchronize. That in itself is a pretty good reason to have those burst windows.

I'm a main PLD, have been for years, with the occasional WAR in SB. I really like playing PLD, it's the funnier it's been for the entirety of the game's life. But the thing is : it doesn't fit with the meta, and that makes it a badly designed job. Will they gut it ? Probably. But if it enables me to be more efficient for my static while letting me play PLD, with its aesthetic and core identity (more CDs, a mix of physical and magical attacks), it's good news.

The problem comes when instead of adapting the job to the new meta, they get rid of the complexity it has. I don't mind if they change it completely, I just want to have a tank that isn't braindead to optimize with.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Let's not discuss the "change 18 jobs rather than changing mine" side of things, and focus on why the 2 minutes meta is good for the game.

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Changing 18 jobs is better when all 18 jobs are saying the same thing: "We don't like two minute burst meta." The root cause of the problem is not that PLD isn't fun to play because it doesn't fit into the two minute burst meta. The root cause is that the two minute burst meta is not fun to play.

can we expect summoner level rework? like new spells or spells removal ?

or mostly it will be little changes that wil affect a bit the gameplay?

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Originally Posted by Mithron

not fun to play.

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Subjective, and therefore irrelevant

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Subjective, and therefore irrelevant

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You're subjective, therefore irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

You're subjective, therefore irrelevant.

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Great comeback, really inspiring. You're devolving from a troll to a parrot

I would recommend using the ignore list feature on the more desperate for attention Dunning-Kruger troll types around here. No need to waste any time in your life on people who don't deserve any of it.

Seconding that. That guy is going around lots of threads just seeking attention. Just ignore and move onto more interresting points to discuss.
He will resort to cheap provocations and personnal attacks to make you engage, don't. There is no discussion to be had and any argument you can think of, no matter their value, will not be acknowledged.

thirded, no point in feeding him, it'll never lead anywhere actually useful

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Changing 18 jobs is better when all 18 jobs are saying the same thing: "We don't like two minute burst meta." The root cause of the problem is not that PLD isn't fun to play because it doesn't fit into the two minute burst meta. The root cause is that the two minute burst meta is not fun to play.

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Never said PLD wasn't fun to play, I said precisely the opposite of that, that I like PLD deerly right now.

But then again, I never saw anyone, outside those forums, that said the two minutes meta is inherently bad, rather the opposite really.

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Originally Posted by NakanoTEA

The problem comes when instead of adapting the job to the new meta, they get rid of the complexity it has. I don't mind if they change it completely, I just want to have a tank that isn't braindead to optimize with.

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I understand, and agree, PLD is harder and more interesting than WAR and DRK, but GNB is harder than PLD, and there are lots of jobs that are harder to optimize than PLD, if you count DPSs. All of those follow the 2 minute rotation, so really, let's not worry too much beforehand.

Ah I love when the unwashed masses strawman instead of confronting a point

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Never said PLD wasn't fun to play, I said precisely the opposite of that, that I like PLD deerly right now.

But then again, I never saw anyone, outside those forums, that said the two minutes meta is inherently bad, rather the opposite really.



I understand, and agree, PLD is harder and more interesting than WAR and DRK, but GNB is harder than PLD, and there are lots of jobs that are harder to optimize than PLD, if you count DPSs. All of those follow the 2 minute rotation, so really, let's not worry too much beforehand.

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I seen plenty of it in a few sources. Most people who either don't care one way or the other aren't going to give criticism on it.

As someone who has seen my dedicated main get slaughtered into a 'busier-burst' clone of another job, the tank role in general get so simplified to the point a half-dead goldfish could probably do it successfully. I am plenty worried that Paladin will just become Warrior 3.0. It already has the 5 stacks of requeiscat and 3 stacks of sword oath for atonement before this rework to begin with. GNB feels great, and it's really my only source of hope that they can make it feel great in the current iteration of gameplay

I agree there are things about Paladin that do need to be changed, because they are rather blatant (cursed openers to optimize FoF and that; and I'm not personally a fan of atonement in general) but the concern will keep being there until I actually get to see what they show. Whether it either turns into relief or disappointment

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

But then again, I never saw anyone, outside those forums, that said the two minutes meta is inherently bad, rather the opposite really.

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I hear it constantly in these forums, in game, in Novice Network, in FC chat, during fights, on podcasts, on YouTube, on Twitch, from day 1 Savage prog/Ultimate raiders... it's pretty unanimous that most people don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I hear it constantly in these forums, in game, in Novice Network, in FC chat, during fights, on podcasts, on YouTube, on Twitch, from day 1 Savage prog/Ultimate raiders... it's pretty unanimous that most people don't like it.

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Provide the data if you wish to claim it. People are more likely to moan and groan than they are to praise. So unless you have the numbers, be quiet

I can find a lot of streamers, FC members of mine, podcasts and whatever that disagree. Let's just say it's controversial, because I never met those people and you obviously never met mine. My point still stands on the dev's interest in having a two minute burst meta.

I think people that complain about it are people that despise the homogeneization of classes, but that has little to do with that meta, and more with the actual job mechanics. Ranged physical have very different gameplays while functioning on the same core principles. A job's identity is not related to it having a 1, 2 or 3 minute bursts, but those are just my two cents, and we can disagree on that.

And then again, I can hear the concerns, I understand them to some extent... but why worry so much about something that will happen and we have no control on yet ? Let's just wait and see, and if it's bad, then we'll speak. Right now, it seems pretty pointless to me.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...en-t-enjoyable

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-Job-Diversity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G7lZlMAYaE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLif0vuZIss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU9nuHpBPM4

Just a few examples.

2 minute raid buffs are boring and restrictive, and it really sucks that PLD is being reworked to fit that instead of letting it be a little bit unique.

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Originally Posted by Launched

2 minute raid buffs are boring and restrictive, and it really sucks that PLD is being reworked to fit that instead of letting it be a little bit unique.

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Boring is subjective, not an argument. And restrictive? Let's talk about how restricted classes were that were off meta due to buff timing. Oh is that too hard?

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Originally Posted by Launched

2 minute raid buffs are boring and restrictive, and it really sucks that PLD is being reworked to fit that instead of letting it be a little bit unique.

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Then again, class identity, class uniqueness, is not necessarily linked to it having a different burst, or even a burst at all... Class identity is its aesthetics, lore, rotation, cooldowns, etc. How can you even argue that the two minutes rotation homogeneizes classes when NIN, MNK, and DRG exist at the same time and are not similar at all ?

The reason tanks are "more" similar to each other (way less right now than they were at ShB, so maybe they actually do care about class identity), is because they are way easier to play than DPSs, and should be. Therefore, there is a limit to how different you can be, since something bizarre would be considered too hard by many tank players. And please, stop pretending we're not already a flavour of WAR, we're way closer to them than we are of GNBs... The only reason you think it's not the case is because we have two bursts, but if you like playing PLD because you like to have two "bursts", aka 75% "burst" time, let's just say that's a strange reason to like a job.

I kinda get y'all dislike the two minutes meta, and I get there are famous people that dislike it too, but as somebody put it earlier in this thread, people that don't mind about it won't take the time to argue against it, as they are not even aware that there is a controversy around it, as I was. That's why we can't get any statistical idea of what the proportion of people disliking it is. Ergo why I already tried to discuss class identity instead of discussing about that.

The 2-minute meta is the current meta, and they don't want to change it, at least until the next expansion, or even the one after. If it ever becomes a problem so obvious everyone has heard from it. Because yeah, Mr Happy disliking it and some streamers agreeing with him is not everyone... Why would we spend so much time arguing about something that can't be changed ? That can only lead to more anger and resentment, and frankly, that's just a waste of your time and mine all around.

And someone that argues against the two minutes meta, and gets angry because GNB has been "murdered" since it got a third bullet is... yeah, proves my point about tanks being kept easy and braindead by their own players. Clearly not the argument you wanted to make it to be.

inb4 : "just stop answering if it's a waste of your time", well, yeah, probably what I'm gonna do

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Then again, class identity, class uniqueness, is not necessarily linked to it having a different burst, or even a burst at all... Class identity is its aesthetics, lore, rotation, cooldowns, etc. How can you even argue that the two minutes rotation homogeneizes classes when NIN, MNK, and DRG exist at the same time and are not similar at all ?

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At the absolute core of any DPS you have 2 choices, Sustained DPS or Burst DPS. The 2 minute meta has killed of sustained DPS and this is what people are saying when they say job identity or uniqueness or however they want to say it is being killed. I am of the opinion that every job does play differently, but they all play differently in the confines of being a burst DPS. We will soon have no sustained DPS jobs left (unless you want to count healers, but healers already have issues there).

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I kinda get y'all dislike the two minutes meta, and I get there are famous people that dislike it too, but as somebody put it earlier in this thread, people that don't mind about it won't take the time to argue against it, as they are not even aware that there is a controversy around it, as I was. That's why we can't get any statistical idea of what the proportion of people disliking it is. Ergo why I already tried to discuss class identity instead of discussing about that.

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This might just be my ignorance showing, however, every time someone brings up the fact they dislike the 2 minute meta, you always have more people agree than disagree. You would have thought, if you enjoyed it, you would want to say something. You never know, you might have a thought that the 2 minute meta opposers didn't think of, which causes them to think. These discussions need to happen and pros and cons need to be built up. Is everyone going to agree? Probably not, but that shouldn't stop the discussions from happening.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

How can you even argue that the two minutes rotation homogeneizes classes when NIN, MNK, and DRG exist at the same time and are not similar at all?

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Because every expansion before this one, many classes had different times of burst windows. Some were 80s. Some 90s. Some 70s. If you tried to fit everything into NIN's Trick Attack on every single job, it was a massive DPS loss and destroyed most jobs' rotation. This makes the jobs feel more unique and fun to play, because different timers means different play styles.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Why would we spend so much time arguing about something that can't be changed?

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Because this game makes billions of dollars. "Can't" is not something that applies to developers who make billions of dollars.

Also, if the situation became like this, it means it can change again. It's not like people suddenly realized that the game was always on a 2 minute burst/raid buff rotation meta since launch.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

This might just be my ignorance showing, however, every time someone brings up the fact they dislike the 2 minute meta, you always have more people agree than disagree. You would have thought, if you enjoyed it, you would want to say something. You never know, you might have a thought that the 2 minute meta opposers didn't think of, which causes them to think. These discussions need to happen and pros and cons need to be built up. Is everyone going to agree? Probably not, but that shouldn't stop the discussions from happening.

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And everytime I tried to argue about it, all I got was "everyone hates the 2 minute meta, look MrHappy hates it, and those two other people on the forum too". I don't want to play the victim here, but nobody actually contradicted any point I made previously in this thread in favor of the 2min meta, I always get sent back to this.

I don't dislike sustained dps classes, nor do I dislike 70s burst, or even 90s burst, or whatever. What I'm arguing is that when you have different burst timers, some classes are mechanically disadvantaged for some fights. For example, if at 1:40, the boss becomes untargetable, and comes back at 1:55 the 90s, 20s-long burst class will lose much more dps than 2-minute burst classes, which will cause imbalance, and SE will get hate for it. I don't mind having sustained dps classes, but you can't have differently timed burst classes and expect fights to be fair to all classes.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Because every expansion before this one, many classes had different times of burst windows. Some were 80s. Some 90s. Some 70s. If you tried to fit everything into NIN's Trick Attack on every single job, it was a massive DPS loss and destroyed most jobs' rotation. This makes the jobs feel more unique and fun to play, because different timers means different play styles.

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Same thing, since some classes will combine better together, because their bursts are aligned, they will have more dps than any other combination. That combination will become mandatory in wanna-be hardcore raid parties, some classes will be excluded, much more severely than MCH is right now, and the balance will be a mess. Sacrificing the "my burst is uniquely timed" part of a class "identity" for preventing such meta is pretty worthwhile, to me.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Because this game makes billions of dollars. "Can't" is not something that applies to developers who make billions of dollars.

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Them making millions (yes, millions, making even one billion with a game is pretty hard, you know ?) is absolutely unrelated to them being able or willing to listen to forums, especially on controversial subjects where a consensus is far, very far from obtained, however vocal they may be. I've seen and read more people ask for changes for the PLD than people wanting it to stay the same, except on this forum, so yeah, you're not the majority, and therefore, they won't listen to you, especially when most of the work seems already done. If there IS an issue after the rework, and the majority of people agree on that, then you can discuss changes and so on, but right now, it's pointless.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Also, if the situation became like this, it means it can change again. It's not like people suddenly realized that the game was always on a 2 minute burst/raid buff rotation meta since launch.

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And then again, I'm sure it will, if the general consensus is that the two-minute meta is bad. But if there are people like me that raid and have social interactions with all kinds of players, from casual to hardcore, playing with them daily, roulettes and so on, and never heard of any complaint about it, chances are you're not the majority. That doesn't mean you should stay quiet, but that means you can't just use "everyone knows that 2-minute meta is bad" as an argument.

Sorry but your point is irrelevant in regards to times affecting 90second burst jobs, as fight design in ShB allowed for fights where burst job like Warrior and Dark Knight to have a stronger showing where there was more downtime during fights, versus fights with full uptime gave sustain jobs like Paladin had a stronger showing. Then GNB being more hybrid of the two types, but leaning more to sustain.

Overall having various buffs windows was not a bad thing, allowed for creativity, allowed for more engaging planning, and allowed for both burst and sustain damage type jobs to be effective. 2 minute buff meta is more punishing, 1 death can throw everything out of alignment, having certain mechanics happen during buff windows can lead to janky alignment issues, p7s for example where some fail to hold buffs before being yeeted up at the 6minute buff window, while others don't, causing a weaker 6 minute and subsequent 2 minute windows. While before this 2 minute meta it wasn't as bad since you could still line up buffs with trick attack after deaths or misaligned buff, so you don't lose a use.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Sorry but your point is irrelevant in regards to times affecting 90second burst jobs, as fight design in ShB allowed for fights where burst job like Warrior and Dark Knight to have a stronger showing where there was more downtime during fights, versus fights with full uptime gave sustain jobs like Paladin had a stronger showing. Then GNB being more hybrid of the two types, but leaning more to sustain.

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I'm not denying that, try to read more carefully... I'm saying with various burst windows, a class can be penalized, not for being a burst class or sustained damage class, but because of its very own timer that aligns poorly with the boss itself. If you still don't get what I mean, I guess that's alright, but I'm not sure how I can say it more clearly.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Overall having various buffs windows was not a bad thing, allowed for creativity, allowed for more engaging planning, and allowed for both burst and sustain damage type jobs to be effective. 2 minute buff meta is more punishing, 1 death can throw everything out of alignment, having certain mechanics happen during buff windows can lead to janky alignment issues, p7s for example where some fail to hold buffs before being yeeted up at the 6minute buff window, while others don't, causing a weaker 6 minute and subsequent 2 minute windows. While before this 2 minute meta it wasn't as bad since you could still line up buffs with trick attack after deaths or misaligned buff, so you don't lose a use.

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1 death is supposed to throw everything out of alignment. That's also why you're not supposed to die. Having certain mechanics happen during buff windows is supposed to lead to janky alignment, because you're supposed to either solve the mechanics differently to not have that janky alignment, either to delay and burst later, which both take team effort. You can't exactly blame a game where you're supposed to play as 8 for asking you to play as 8. All the variously timed burst does is make it a solo-focused game, which, I'm pretty sure, is what everyone and his cousin is screaming about down there in General Discussion.

At the end of the line, I do not care for either meta, but pretending the 2-min meta is bad because you have to play as a team, not die or "having a 90s timed burst is SO different from having a 120s timed burst" really sounds to me like a tantrum. All I was arguing about was that maybe, since the PLD rework will happen anyway, we should wait and see, but yeah. Whatevs.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Same thing, since some classes will combine better together, because their bursts are aligned, they will have more dps than any other combination. That combination will become mandatory in wanna-be hardcore raid parties, some classes will be excluded, much more severely than MCH is right now, and the balance will be a mess. Sacrificing the "my burst is uniquely timed" part of a class "identity" for preventing such meta is pretty worthwhile, to me.

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Yet since Gordias and Midas, we have never had more class DPS disparity than we do right now. I would argue the two minute burst meta has lead to this awful class balance and jobs like PLD/WAR having less than 10 total worldwide clears in P8s week one, so your stance doesn't hold. You don't need two minute burst meta to balance jobs within each other reasonably; Creator, SB and SHB proved that.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

I've seen and read more people ask for changes for the PLD than people wanting it to stay the same, except on this forum, so yeah, you're not the majority, and therefore, they won't listen to you, especially when most of the work seems already done. If there IS an issue after the rework, and the majority of people agree on that, then you can discuss changes and so on, but right now, it's pointless.

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I've seen a few proposing changes for PLD not because they want PLD to change, but because they're afraid of what SE will do to PLD and want to try to make the changes less bad. Doesn't matter if I'm minority or majority or if the work is already done, voicing my opinion and thoughts is the right thing to do and I will do that no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Yet since Gordias and Midas, we have never had more class DPS disparity than we do right now. I would argue the two minute burst meta has lead to this awful class balance and jobs like PLD/WAR having less than 10 total worldwide clears in P8s week one, so your stance doesn't hold. You don't need two minute burst meta to balance jobs within each other reasonably; Creator, SB and SHB proved that.

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I... uh... yeah. Hmm. That's kinda... yeah. I'll just agree to disagree with you and be on my merry way.

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

you're supposed to play as 8 for asking you to play as 8. All the variously timed burst does is make it a solo-focused game, which, I'm pretty sure, is what everyone and his cousin is screaming about down there in General Discussion.

At the end of the line, I do not care for either meta, but pretending the 2-min meta is bad because you have to play as a team, not die or "having a 90s timed burst is SO different from having a 120s timed burst" really sounds to me like a tantrum. All I was arguing about was that maybe, since the PLD rework will happen anyway, we should wait and see, but yeah. Whatevs.

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i agree with this, 2 minute burst are not that bad. its like a basic guide line to balance instead of just make everything spread all way. and just like you said the job identity are not define from 1 2 3 or 2 minute burst time. i understand right now every tank feel the same ( they should differ how tanks mitigate damage ) and changes are scary but if this make job balance are better and game better why not ?

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Originally Posted by krisatriya

but if this make job balance are better and game better why not ?

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Because jobs were more balanced before the two minute meta and more fun. Making jobs less fun while also less balanced is the opposite of better. Even if they try to make it more balanced, if it's at the cost of less fun, that's not better either.

Why not make it more balanced while making it more fun without two minute meta?

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Because jobs were more balanced before the two minute meta and more fun. Making jobs less fun while also less balanced is the opposite of better. Even if they try to make it more balanced, if it's at the cost of less fun, that's not better either.

Why not make it more balanced while making it more fun without two minute meta?

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You clearly don't understand how the focus around 2 min came to be, and don't get there will always be burst phases because that's how buffs work

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Originally Posted by FireMage

You clearly don't understand how the focus around 2 min came to be, and don't get there will always be burst phases because that's how buffs work

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It came to be because many players including my self kept asking for "this buff" and "that buff" to be aligned and shifted together into two minutes because we all thought it would make the game better and more fun. Unfortunately, now that we have it, it turns out it did not make the game better, more fun or more balanced and many people, including myself, want it gone.

There will indeed always be burst phases, and that is okay. There were burst phases in HW, SB and SHB. NIN has always been a very good pick in every expansion because of Trick Attack/Mug, but only in EW has every single job been aligned perfectly with it. Even for the jobs that did not align well on 60s/120s burst windows, they were still more balanced than they are now that every job does align well on 60s/120s. More importantly, they were more fun to play and more jobs felt more varied than they do currently. While there will always be a meta, some jobs will be better than others, and there will be ideal comps around certain buff timings in the fight design especially, having every job feel exactly the same on the exact same timers is not fun and nor has it made the game more balanced. The game balance is the worst it's been since Gordias.

Fun is subjective, but seeing as you don't know the difference between objective and subjective, I'll let you embarrass your self again.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Fun is subjective

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Precisely, therefore stop bringing it up in matters of objectivity. Also you're flat out lying again by saying the balance is worse now than any part of HW. But hey keep trolling and acting like you know what balance is when you know nothing

I do not recall any instances of Savage raid fights where less than 10 worldwide of any particular job was unable to clear week 1 and the fight needed nerfing in Creator, SB or SHB. Therefore, game balance is the worst it's been since Gordias and Midas. This is a factual and undeniable statement. You are delusional (which everyone knows you already are) if you believe otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I do not recall any instances of Savage raid fights where less than 10 worldwide of any particular job was unable to clear week 1 and the fight needed nerfing in Creator, SB or SHB. Therefore, game balance is the worst it's been since Gordias and Midas. This is a factual and undeniable statement. You are delusional (which everyone knows you already are) if you believe otherwise.

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Hey remember when PLD was flat out bad the whole expansion? Remember MCH being garbage? AST sucking until they made cards good,, and then WHM being effectively shelved once that occured? No one wanting MNK because it contributed nothing but Blunt up? That's already over a third of the total amount of Jobs that had significant issues throughout HW. If you're going to be ignorant, then don't post