A game for 4 year olds

Yeah, they should just fight and kill each other. Because that worked so well the first time. Though I would like to know what species attacked the Omicron to make them intergalactic conquerors in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Thenightvortex

So, apparently there is a quest in the Omicron chain that touches upon the relations between dragon and machine. A long conflict which lasted in countless deaths and the majority of the draconic race being exterminated.

So how is this conflict explored then?

https://garlandtools.org/db/#quest/70140

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...the_Dragonstar

They give a ghost dragon a dessert that makes them forget the past and just give up on, being ready to chill with the race that exterminated his, saying that they shouldn’t linger in the past. This is is despite their near-hostile attitude before eating the cake. Vidofnir also doesn’t seem to care much for criticizing Omicrons, even implying that are to to become “friends” instead of old foe.

What the hell is this writing? It’s something ripped straight from a book for four-five year olds’ bedtime stories. “Two boys fought with each other, their mother told them to make peace and so the one that started the fight brought the other a cookie and they lived happily ever after”, except this is applied to planetary extermination.

Why

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…did you not play or understand the plot of Heavansward?

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Yeah, they should just fight and kill each other. Because that worked so well the first time. Though I would like to know what species attacked the Omicron to make them intergalactic conquerors in the first place.

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I honestly had hoped that would be the source of the sound..and the subject of 7.0…but alas the sound was just Meteion and a lot of “whoops those pesky Ascians again lolwtfbbq”.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Yeah, they should just fight and kill each other. Because that worked so well the first time. Though I would like to know what species attacked the Omicron to make them intergalactic conquerors in the first place.

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I suspect it's like with the Garleans: it's not that they had one single nemesis, it's that they were so incapable of fighting back that everything that had reason to take a shot at them did.

In keeping with the back end of Endwalker having a lot of classic sci-fi, the Omicrons are actually damn near bang-on for Doctor Who's Cybermen in terms of concept. While no version of the Cybermen have ever had their origin in wars (that's more the Daleks' thing), they do have a common theme across various incarnations that it almost doesn't matter what sort of adversity caused them to decide augmenting themselves was the best idea; the point is that they did.

The Omicrons did not merely augment themselves - they effectively remade their species. Whatever they might have been before was lost alongside their organic forms and at least part of their free will. They then went on to build up a body count that is in all probability even higher than the Meteia's.

I have to admit to being quite put off by the niceties going on regarding them. These machines are (at least as much as been revealed thus far) easily among the highest scoring killers of all time. The road of self-defense they started out on became one of conquest, conversion, and in most cases eradication. While yes, the Omicrons in Ultima Thule are little more than echoes modeled after the originals, it's made clear in-game they share in their template's rather detestable tendencies. Countless worlds were ravaged by the original Omicrons, the Dragonstar being but one example.

Nigh-immediate forgiveness is rather questionable to me. I'm not against it on the whole, but I do believe a considerable amount of time and effort should be required to get the proverbial ball rolling on that. Well, so far as the dragons of Ultima Thule are concerned. It is a bit more understandable for those of Etheirys to be open to the idea with a bit less work given their experiences with the Dragonsong War and the fact none of them (excepting Midgardstorm's children, although they were eggs at the time) were alive when the Omicrons went full Exterminatus on their ancestral homeworld.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I suspect it's like with the Garleans: it's not that they had one single nemesis, it's that they were so incapable of fighting back that everything that had reason to take a shot at them did.

In keeping with the back end of Endwalker having a lot of classic sci-fi, the Omicrons are actually damn near bang-on for Doctor Who's Cybermen in terms of concept. While no version of the Cybermen have ever had their origin in wars (that's more the Daleks' thing), they do have a common theme across various incarnations that it almost doesn't matter what sort of adversity caused them to decide augmenting themselves was the best idea; the point is that they did.

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Not to mention their backstory is also a dead-ringer for the original Cylons from the 70s Battlestar Galactica (originally reptillian aliens who made themselves into cyborgs, and then eventually became fully robotic AIs, and who then launch a genocidal assault on another sentient starfaring race), but yeah it's definetely in keeping with a lot of EW referencing classic speculative fiction/sf.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Tribal quests are not canon. They always do goofy stuff like that in their beast tribe/tribal quest stuff.

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Also Ransu I love you but this take is truly nutters.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I suspect it's like with the Garleans: it's not that they had one single nemesis, it's that they were so incapable of fighting back that everything that had reason to take a shot at them did.

In keeping with the back end of Endwalker having a lot of classic sci-fi, the Omicrons are actually damn near bang-on for Doctor Who's Cybermen in terms of concept. While no version of the Cybermen have ever had their origin in wars (that's more the Daleks' thing), they do have a common theme across various incarnations that it almost doesn't matter what sort of adversity caused them to decide augmenting themselves was the best idea; the point is that they did.

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Yeah - and the Borg from Star Trek spring to mind here too. Granted they're, as their name implies, Cyborgs but I guess one might argue that the Omicrons evolution included a techno-organic stage?

Eitherway, the origin of the Borg has, to date, never been explored and most agree that it's better that way. Keeping a sense of mystery where their origin is concerned makes them more appealing in my view.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Yeah, they should just fight and kill each other. Because that worked so well the first time. Though I would like to know what species attacked the Omicron to make them intergalactic conquerors in the first place.

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I think it was hinted that they bascially were the Garleans of their planet. But unlike Garlemald they were not stopped and thus conquered their whole planet. Afterwards it seems that they were always afraid that some other races from other stars could come and wipe them out. Thus they prevented that by being the one that wiped out others. Until the realisation came that maybe this was all wrong and that they did this for pure destruction.

Anyways I should really not be surprised that some are already complaining about something which nobody of us have even played...maybe play it first and then post about it?

I loved the quests we got for them right now and the new zones are beautiful. But I guess for some its too much that a star of pure dynamis reacts on peoples emotions and creates things for them. Maybe we should have gotten someone with creation magic to do it instead. That would be a power that makes sense. /s

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

T
I have to admit to being quite put off by the niceties going on regarding them. These machines are (at least as much as been revealed thus far) easily among the highest scoring killers of all time. The road of self-defense they started out on became one of conquest, conversion, and in most cases eradication. While yes, the Omicrons in Ultima Thule are little more than echoes modeled after the originals, it's made clear in-game they share in their template's rather detestable tendencies. Countless worlds were ravaged by the original Omicrons, the Dragonstar being but one example.

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I mean if we cant forgive recreated beings than doesnt that mean that we also should never forgive the Garleans and any other race that has done something horrible? I understand your view though, I have disliked that they tried to paint people like Yotsuyu or Gaius in a much nicer light than they (imo) should be. But if they can do that with living people I just dont see a reason why it shouldnt be fine with recreations of long death beings.

After all even Emet got a nice fanservice goodbye and that person has helped in destroying whole planets too.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Yeah - and the Borg from Star Trek spring to mind here too. Granted they're, as their name implies, Cyborgs but I guess one might argue that the Omicrons evolution included a techno-organic stage?

Eitherway, the origin of the Borg has, to date, never been explored and most agree that it's better that way. Keeping a sense of mystery where their origin is concerned makes them more appealing in my view.

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Agreed; sometimes it's better to let one's imagination do the heavy lifting. No need to show everything.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I think it was hinted that they bascially where the Garleans of their planet. But unlike Garlemald they were not stopped and thus conquered their whole planet. Afterwards it seems that they were always afraid that some other races from other stars could come and wipe them out. Thus they prevented that by being the one that wiped out others. Until the realisation came that maybe this was all wrong and that they did this for pure destruction.

Anyways I should really not be surprised that some are already complaining about something which nobody of us have even played...maybe play it first and then post about it?

I loved the quests we got for them right now and the new zones are beautiful. But I guess for some its too much that a star of pure dynamis reacts on peoples emotions and creates things for them. Maybe we should have gotten someone with creation magic to do it instead. That would be a power that makes sense. /s

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I can't remember specifics but this sounds about right; The Omicrons are essentially the embodiment of the Dark Forest theory (an answer to the Fermi Paradox). That is to say, when encountering another race, it is always better to destroy them first so that a) they can't get you first and/or b) they can't evolve into something that is stronger than you.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I mean if we cant forgive recreated beings than doesnt that mean that we also should never forgive the Garleans and any other race that has done something horrible? I understand your view though, I have disliked that they tried to paint people like Yotsuyu or Gaius in a much nicer light than they (imo) should be. But if they can do that with living people I just dont see a reason why it shouldnt be fine with recreations of long death beings.

After all even Emet got a nice fanservice goodbye and that person has helped in destroying whole planets too.

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The problem, as I said before, is that these faux Omicrons have the same characteristics and intentions as the originals. They were even prepared to send out a signal to the original Omicrons, which unlike the other races in Ultima Thule aren't extinct. It's noted this would have seen them resume their mission of destroying all life, which their counterparts in Ultima Thule were well aware of. In other words, they were fully and knowingly willing to be complicit in the eradication of every living thing on every world.

The Garleans mostly employed the least amount of force possible when acquiring new territory, and the people they conquered mostly got on fine so long as they stayed in line. Depending on governor, of course; we know some territories, notably those ruled by Zenos, weren't treated well at all. In any case, the Garleans weren't of one mind. Enough of them disapproved of the Empire's expansionist practices for it to be a proper political issue. At this point they have no Empire, and the numbers of Garlean purebloods have been reduced so heavily that maintaining the population is probably no longer possible. And beyond all that? They, including the ones who were against it from the start, aren't being forgiven. The story makes this evident. Garlemald is screwed.

Emet-Selch may have gotten a "fanservice sendoff," but it's made clear he and the other Ascians aren't forgiven for their actions either. It is quite possible to understand, even sympathize, with a person or persons without condoning the things they've done. Atrocities are atrocities, but in their case those atrocities were driven by something just about everyone can relate to.

Rather than just giving the Omicrons a pass right out of the gate, why couldn't it have been something to work toward? That's all I'm saying. Forgiveness rarely comes easily, after all. It's something that should've taken time and hard work.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Garleans mostly employed the least amount of force possible when acquiring new territory, and the people they conquered mostly got on fine so long as they stayed in line.

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70,000 Dalmascans died in 1 battle against the Garleans at Nalbina Fortress. Dalmasca and Nhalmasque were taken by overwhelming force through the use of airships and then conscripted their citizens to fight their wars against other nations.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Rather than just giving the Omicrons a pass right out of the gate, why couldn't it have been something to work toward? That's all I'm saying. Forgiveness rarely comes easily, after all. It's something that should've taken time and hard work.

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If this was MSQ, that 100% would have happened. But the Dragonstar and the Omicrons are a side story of a side story for beast tribe dailies and there's only so much that can be put into it, especially since the beast tribe dailies are about all the aliens in Ultima Thule and not just the two.

The Garleans will probably have their own reconciliation storyline eventually, now that we just got over their collapse. They're more central to the plot of the game after all.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

70,000 Dalmascans died in 1 battle against the Garleans at Nalbina Fortress. Dalmasca and Nhalmasque were taken by overwhelming force through the use of airships and then conscripted their citizens to fight their wars against other nations.

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Note the word "mostly" in my initial observation. The Garleans didn't really stand to gain much from conquering a bunch of ruins and dead bodies, which the game does tell us. Doesn't meant there haven't been times they employed extreme force. It just means it's probably not going to be their go-to if it can be helped. If they really wanted to just "win" they could've ended nearly every war they started almost immediately by fielding a bunch of airships and turning every country they visited into a smoking crater.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The Garleans will probably have their own reconciliation storyline eventually, now that we just got over their collapse. They're more central to the plot of the game after all.

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I have a sneaking suspicion this may not occur, or if it does it won't be for a good while. The developers were looking to push the game away from Venat, the Ascians, Garlemald, etc. with Endwalker. Their original, more in-depth plans were scrapped in favor of the quicker approach. At any rate, if moving on with the story is the objective, then Garlemald may well not be touched again for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Note the word "mostly." The Garleans don't really benefit from conquering a bunch of ruins and corpses, and the game tells us as much more than once.

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Considering their small core population size that you yourself pointed out and lack of a casus belli over the lands of Othard and Eorzea, the Garleans don't really benefit from conquering anything anyway. 70,000 Dalmascans died defending their 1000-year-old kingdom from an invading force that had nothing to do with it at all.

The Garlean Empire collapsed in part due to overreach and it was designed from the ground up to be unstable and to ruin as many lives as possible in a short amount of time in order to brew conflict that would lead to a Calamity. The Garlean Empire did not exist to improve anyone's life. You had mentioned the Populares, but they were themselves a weak enough force in Garlean government and society that they were purged off-camera without Ascian influence or assistance. The IVth legion, led and largely made up of non-pureblood Garleans and taking advantage of political instability in Garlemald, went completely rogue and decided to carve out their own nation.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I have a sneaking suspicion this may not occur, or if it does it won't be for a good while. The developers were looking to push the game away from Venat, the Ascians, Garlemald, etc. with Endwalker. Their original, more in-depth plans were scrapped in favor of the quicker approach. At any rate, if moving on with the story is the objective, then Garlemald may well not be touched again for a long time.

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I would be happy with them taking a break from the cosmic escalation and plot points going back to 1.0 so that Yoshi-P can make his own story unfettered from holdovers from before he joined. The reason why Garlemald fell like it did is simply because the original writers made it too strong and I think that was even called out before. I still think a reconciliation sidequest chain will come eventually but it will take time in both our world and the world of the game. Time for us to do something new. And for the people of Hydaelyn, most don't know the Ascians exist so the only face they know of being responsible for 60 years of conquering are the Garleans and the average citizens back home were fully drinking the Ascian kool-aid thinking they had the right to take over the world while dissenting voices weren't enough to have an impact and were purged anyway. So it will probably be done in a chain of quests and not be tied to a tribal quest done in one go.

Except no one at any point claimed the Garlean Empire was good? Nor is anyone asserting the Empire as a whole was anything but harmful in the big picture, including to the Garleans themselves. So I'm not entirely sure what most of your post is responding to here. Are you perhaps conflating where I said the provinces were for the most part able to get on fine as long as they stayed in line with calling the Empire good? Because if so, that's a gross (and from my perspective seemingly intentional) mischaracterization of the statement.

As for the Populares; they were of limited number, yes, but that number was still significant enough for their absence to substantially worsen the already deteriorating political situation in Garlemald. That purge was not without consequence.

The "Ascian kool-aid" as it was put is called propaganda. Do you know what happens when you tell a people whose history is rife with oppression and suffering they're at risk of being sent right back to that situation? Nine times out of ten they'll buy into it, and it won't be a happy outcome for anyone. Combining doomsaying with a message of <insert demographic here> superiority is a recipe for disaster. It may work for a while, but it always comes at great cost for the people being taken in by it. The Garleans were as much victims as any of the countries their government conquered.

The Omicrons were probably in many ways much the same as the Garleans at some point in time. The difference, however, is that they were never stopped. Nor did they ever reconsider their actions in the least. The Omicrons forged ahead even after realizing what they were doing had become destruction for destruction's sake. To them it did not matter - there was no reasoning, no dialogue. They would simply move from world to world, converting or exterminating every life form they came into contact with. The Omicrons weren't manipulated by some millennia old survivor's guilt-ridden mastermind. They walked their path knowingly and without any remorse.

The Omicrons' reflections in Ultima Thule differ only in that they do not have the power to carve a swath of destruction across the universe the way their originals did. We're told quite expressly they would gladly do the same thing if given the opportunity and ability to do so. There is no apparent desire to reform at all. There's barely even any independent thought outside of one or two units that yet retain some semblance of will, a condition the game tells us would see them dismantled if ever it became known to their compatriots.

So then, looking between an already defeated people whose history of suffering was exploited by an impossibly old menace to create a system predicated on fearmongering and indoctrination and an entire species of murderbots whose greatest desire was and continues to be the extermination of every living thing, I'm not seeing where people are getting the idea the average Garlean citizen is somehow anywhere near as terrible.

Again this argument is over a quest that is near the highest tribe rank. So it's not like the friendlyness is happening right out the gate. Heck there's even a daily where you're tasked with spreading the word about the cafe and one of the people you try to talk to is a dragon who can't find any peace and quiet due to the most recent ruckus and noisy rif-raf. They ask you if you know anything about it and you tell them about the cafe and they wander off grumbling about how they're hoping to find a place they won't hear the noise comeing from the Last Dregs.

The original Omincrons stopped partly due to not having anymore close enough neighbors and if Omega really was SIR and they ditched their mobile body for the one they flew across space in then their leader really did just abandon them while putting them all into standby mode accidentally. Seeing as our planet is no where near Omnicron occupied space.

I think it's interesting to see so much discourse around excusing the literal Terminators with likely bigger bodycounts than both the Ascians and Venat combined, topped by only the Meteia get continually excused for the atrocities they committed when this fandom still can't stop themselves from hating the Garleans and Ascians and inventing one thousand excuses for any other moral monsters. Never change, GCBTW, never change.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

topped by only the Meteia

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There's a good chance their kill count beats out the Meteia's as well.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

I think it's interesting to see so much discourse around excusing the literal Terminators with likely bigger bodycounts than both the Ascians and Venat combined, topped by only the Meteia get continually excused for the atrocities they committed when this fandom still can't stop themselves from hating the Garleans and Ascians and inventing one thousand excuses for any other moral monsters. Never change, GCBTW, never change.

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I mean, the Romans historically killed/fed to lions/enslaved my ancestors. Doesn’t mean I have to hate Romans now. Heck my grandfather was at Pearl Harbor and here I am married to a Japanese woman.

Whatever the Omicrons did may not be forgivable, but they didn’t do it to us. The Garleans have actively killed several friends and are directly responsible for a lot of current hardship that is near and real to us.

Call it NIMBY if you want, but I am more a sins of the father not being the sins of the son kinda guy.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I mean, the Romans historically killed/fed to lions/enslaved my ancestors. Doesn’t mean I have to hate Romans now. Heck my grandfather was at Pearl Harbor and here I am married to a Japanese woman.

Whatever the Omicrons did may not be forgivable, but they didn’t do it to us. The Garleans have actively killed several friends and are directly responsible for a lot of current hardship that is near and real to us.

Call it NIMBY if you want, but I am more a sins of the father not being the sins of the son kinda guy.

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Okay - but to repeat what Absimiliard said a few posts back:

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The problem, as I said before, is that these faux Omicrons have the same characteristics and intentions as the originals. They were even prepared to send out a signal to the original Omicrons, which unlike the other races in Ultima Thule aren't extinct. It's noted this would have seen them resume their mission of destroying all life, which their counterparts in Ultima Thule were well aware of. In other words, they were fully and knowingly willing to be complicit in the eradication of every living thing on every world.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Okay - but to repeat what Absimiliard said a few posts back:

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I think the key point is the “were”. A central..if not THE central theme of FFXIV is redemption/reconciliation. Despite having aeons to do so, the controlling AI that we met had doubts and never actually committed to doing anything destructive. Rather it was doing the opposite (an act of nurturing) in caring for a random tree.

Indeed when we meet them in Thule they are largely peaceful towards us (specifically meaning the humanoid Omicrons and not any other bits/robotic sentries roaming).

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I think the key point is the “were”. A central..if not THE central theme of FFXIV is redemption/reconciliation. Despite having aeons to do so, the controlling AI that we met had doubts and never actually committed to doing anything destructive. Rather it was doing the opposite (an act of nurturing) in caring for a random tree.

Indeed when we meet them in Thule they are largely peaceful towards us (specifically meaning the humanoid Omicrons and not any other bits/robotic sentries roaming).

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Ok then. I'll be waiting for the ending of Pandaemoniun to bring back the Ancients, since everyone is entitled to a happy ending around here even if it makes no sense. The terminator robots didn't need a redemption arc, certainly not one this ridiculous from top to bottom.

I’m sorry you feel so mad over the story that you have to put words in my mouth.

Also, as many people stated, these terminator robots are not necessarily the actual living Omicrons but a copy. It is entirely possible they have done absolutely nothing wrong, despite being carbon copies of those that did.

What better than to give purpose to things created with no real purpose other than to be a sort of living museum?

There is a key difference between a 'redemption arc' and an 'atonement arc'.

I would describe a 'redemption arc' is largely an arc where a character becomes better for the sake and in the eyes of others. To do right after they've done wrong, and to be recognized for it by others; very much an external bettering first and foremost. Redemption is an act done to something, so to be redeemed somebody has to specifically declare you redeemed. FFXIV actually doesn't do this as much as you first think, but I would say the best examples are probably Estinien and Fordola; Estinien's admittedly coming from more of a moral dark grey than Fordola's straight heel-face turn, but they're both working to do better in the eyes of the societies they wronged.

An 'atonement arc', however, seems to be more of FFXIV's favorite: an arc where the character betters themselves for their own sake first and foremost, not asking for the validaton or approval of others--including potentially the audience. While external validation may happen, the central change and motivator comes from within, from the person themselves wanting to. We've seen this on individual levels; I'm not sure if I'd call Ysayle or Gaius the most prominent example (probably depends on what you played most recently), but they're both pretty prevalent. We've also seen it on the societal level, probably most clearly with Eulmore.

The Omicrons aren't a redemption arc, they're an atonement arc; they're a society that wants to be better than the people they were, because they don't want to be that anymore. Sure, they have some help in finding a direction for that will, but they're doing it more than anything because they want to.

One thing that I will agree on is that it would be hilarious if the owners of the Last Dregs brought back the Amaurotines to work on their farm using the power of dynamis. I can picture the look on Emet's face on being brought back by a vastly superior power beyond anything he is capable of wielding, being handed a shovel and then being told to plant carrots of happiness to atone for his sins.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

One thing that I will agree on is that it would be hilarious if the owners of the Last Dregs brought back the Amaurotines to work on their farm using the power of dynamis. I can picture the look on Emet's face on being brought back by a vastly superior power beyond anything he is capable of wielding, being handed a shovel and then being told to plant carrots of happiness to atone for his sins.

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Do this to Zenos, make him use his scythe to gather on the new planet.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

One thing that I will agree on is that it would be hilarious if the owners of the Last Dregs brought back the Amaurotines to work on their farm using the power of dynamis. I can picture the look on Emet's face on being brought back by a vastly superior power beyond anything he is capable of wielding, being handed a shovel and then being told to plant carrots of happiness to atone for his sins.

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I thought Emet demonstrated that Dynamis and Ather are at least equal when he creation magicked up the flowers in UT.

That largely depends on your interpretation of that scene. Did Emet-Selch savagely attack Meteion with a bouquet of aetheric flowers in order to defeat her, or did we simply win over her heart in a battle of dynamis? I don't think it's all that difficult to figure out which.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

One thing that I will agree on is that it would be hilarious if the owners of the Last Dregs brought back the Amaurotines to work on their farm using the power of dynamis. I can picture the look on Emet's face on being brought back by a vastly superior power beyond anything he is capable of wielding, being handed a shovel and then being told to plant carrots of happiness to atone for his sins.

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Precisely this. I look forward to Venat joining him on this farm so that she can also atone for the genocide she inflicted on her species. Hopefully we can make use of that muddied model they made of her for her shinning post-Elpis sequence and have that remain her permanent appearance evermore. Unfortunately Hermes has no such model, so a simple face paint will have to suffice. Given that he caused this mess in the first place, I think it would be excellent for him to do the most intense physical labor on the farm.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

There is a key difference between a 'redemption arc' and an 'atonement arc'.

I would describe a 'redemption arc' is largely an arc where a character becomes better for the sake and in the eyes of others. To do right after they've done wrong, and to be recognized for it by others; very much an external bettering first and foremost. Redemption is an act done to something, so to be redeemed somebody has to specifically declare you redeemed. FFXIV actually doesn't do this as much as you first think, but I would say the best examples are probably Estinien and Fordola; Estinien's admittedly coming from more of a moral dark grey than Fordola's straight heel-face turn, but they're both working to do better in the eyes of the societies they wronged.

An 'atonement arc', however, seems to be more of FFXIV's favorite: an arc where the character betters themselves for their own sake first and foremost, not asking for the validaton or approval of others--including potentially the audience. While external validation may happen, the central change and motivator comes from within, from the person themselves wanting to. We've seen this on individual levels; I'm not sure if I'd call Ysayle or Gaius the most prominent example (probably depends on what you played most recently), but they're both pretty prevalent. We've also seen it on the societal level, probably most clearly with Eulmore.

The Omicrons aren't a redemption arc, they're an atonement arc; they're a society that wants to be better than the people they were, because they don't want to be that anymore. Sure, they have some help in finding a direction for that will, but they're doing it more than anything because they want to.

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A bit of splitting hairs there, but that’s fine.

Atonement can just as easily mean repaying a debt or making things right for wrongs committed (aka jail time form a crime), and redemption can just as easily carry heavy religious connotations (aka redeemed from sin).

That is to say, a murderer with a 20 year sentence might repent and find God and have redemption 5 years into his sentence, but he is still serving those 20 years to atone for his crimes in the eyes of society.

Ultimately, when I say a story of redemption, I don’t think anyone is going to confuse what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

That largely depends on your interpretation of that scene. Did Emet-Selch savagely attack Meteion with a bouquet of aetheric flowers in order to defeat her, or did we simply win over her heart in a battle of dynamis? I don't think it's all that difficult to figure out which.

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What are you talking about, from what I remember the whole point of that scene was to show to Metion that there was more that despair at Ultima Thule.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

A bit of splitting hairs there, but that’s fine.

Atonement can just as easily mean repaying a debt or making things right for wrongs committed (aka jail time form a crime), and redemption can just as easily carry heavy religious connotations (aka redeemed from sin).

That is to say, a murderer with a 20 year sentence might repent and find God and have redemption 5 years into his sentence, but he is still serving those 20 years to atone for his crimes in the eyes of society.

Ultimately, when I say a story of redemption, I don’t think anyone is going to confuse what I mean.

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My terminology might not be perfect, but we're definitely looking at a story of internally-motivated betterment with the Omicrons more than we are an external one. And personally I find those stories a lot more compelling and believable, in large part because it more readily allows the audience not to believe it if they don't want to. If that arc is mostly for their own sake, then the story rarely ends up asking you to agree with their improvement, which leads to me finding my own stance much more.

The game lets you hate Gaius even after everything, it doesn't really let you hate Fordola. (lucky for me I don't, Fordola was the best part of Stormblood.)

Honestly for me the omicrons are fine because they are recreations of dead beings and their race already suffered the consequences of their actions. They paid the price for their actions with the destruction of their whole race. Just like how the (absolutely cute!) fishpeople have brought their own death by polluting their planet.

They have suffered and then afterwards were bascially locked up into Meteions prison for thousand of years. Suffering and in pain (as Meteion states before she flew into the bubble) Now they get a second chance at life by being recreated with some of the memories of the past still with them.

I mean if Emet Selch one day gets reborn should we still paint the new person as a villian that slew countless of stars too?

The uh... Omicrons weren't destroyed. They still exist, unchanged but in stasis for the time being. Their mirrors in Ultima Thule even went so far as to try and reactivate them, knowing it would doom all life in the universe. In fact, that was precisely why the faux Omicrons wanted to reactivate them. They want to "improve" themselves only as a means of survival, not because they in any way regret the actions of their templates. They've even said they would resume their mission if they could. In other words, barring some retcons or some really weird writing, the Omicrons remain an existential threat to everything. What's to stop them from trying to send another signal to the originals? Their reactivation means the end of all life.

We as players are of course well aware the writing is highly unlikely to take a dark turn like that. More and more, the game has been steering away from things that are vantablack levels of dark. Whatever final outcome the Omicrons get, it will somehow be something wholesome. And this is where I've taken umbrage, not at the concept of a former enemy bettering themselves. In this case it's a bunch of machines, most of whom do not even have free will to start with, being set up to undergo a profound internal change, in complete defiance of their programming. Even Omega, the most advanced thing to ever come from them (and having evolved well beyond its original programming and limitations) could never fully free itself from its Omicron mindset.

I wouldn't have taken issue with it at all if the writers spelled out how these behaviors were absolutely empty and being undertaken for purely pragmatic reasons. Faux or real, the one thing the Omicrons were programmed to do above all else was survive. Playing nice could very easily be construed in this manner, and it would make perfect sense.

And as for Emet-Selch? If the reborn Emet-Selch were to attempt something that would result in the destruction of another world, yes, at that point they could be held to account whether or not the plan succeeded. Intention matters a lot, and a good deal of what we've seen of the Omicrons indicates their intentions are still very hostile.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

My terminology might not be perfect, but we're definitely looking at a story of internally-motivated betterment with the Omicrons more than we are an external one. And personally I find those stories a lot more compelling and believable, in large part because it more readily allows the audience not to believe it if they don't want to. If that arc is mostly for their own sake, then the story rarely ends up asking you to agree with their improvement, which leads to me finding my own stance much more.

The game lets you hate Gaius even after everything, it doesn't really let you hate Fordola. (lucky for me I don't, Fordola was the best part of Stormblood.)

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No worries- I follow what your saying, and I agree- the overall narrative in places of XIV of improvement for its own intrinsic worth is usually a good story…and there have absolutely been some really weird/crap points in the plot when we have agree with things because “I dunno, reasons I guess”.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

What's to stop them from trying to send another signal to the originals? Their reactivation means the end of all life.

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The one boss Omicron who decided not to- that was the entire point of that section…that the Copycroms (at least due to their leader) decided there was more to life than destruction, literally doing the opposite in nurturing that tree.

The entire point there was to show them as no longer needing to be massively destructive. The Alpha/Omega sidequest in 6.x only reaffirms this when Omega wants nothing more than to figure out what “heart” is and gets confused-yet-appreciative of our companionship. I forget the details but it was along the lines of there being more life than just being strong.

I found this new Tribal quest incredible charming and heartwarming

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Originally Posted by kaynide

The one boss Omicron who decided not to- that was the entire point of that section…that the Copycroms (at least due to their leader) decided there was more to life than destruction, literally doing the opposite in nurturing that tree.

The entire point there was to show them as no longer needing to be massively destructive. The Alpha/Omega sidequest in 6.x only reaffirms this when Omega wants nothing more than to figure out what “heart” is and gets confused-yet-appreciative of our companionship. I forget the details but it was along the lines of there being more life than just being strong.

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That "one boss Omicron" is not the only one capable of issuing commands, and the others do still want to resume their original mission.

Omega may have had a change of "heart," but it remains bound by its Omicron way of thinking. We're told this more than once, with one such instance even seeing confirmation Omega would eventually return to its original mission once it had its answers. Omega has essentially become the Brainiac of FFXIV (which, incidentally, I find very pleasing). Mission's still there, but some parameters are now subject to change.

I'm not completely convinced those here would be able to let go of their preconceived biases and hatred even if we did see Emet-Selch's reincarnation in our lifetime. A certain someone on here implied that the Emet-Selch of Elpis was guilty of the crimes of the Emet-Selch of the 7th Astral Era and beyond and posited this as evidence of Azem's serial bad judgement in picking their allies wisely, and wished for the capability to maliciously list every last atrocity the Elidibus we the WoL know straight to Themis' face just to be an inconsiderate, intolerant ass about it. In other words, many on here have proven through their words and actions that they'd see those who would go on to become the Ascians dished out punitive action for pre-crime.

Combine that with how nobody in game or out seems to care that we're entreating fairly with the literal Terminator mass murderers who demonstrated the willingness and capability to restart their war of conquest, well surely you can comprehend why I have little to no faith in this fandom's ability to judge people fairly and evenly without being tainted by preconceived bias based on the atrocities of a fictional race. It really is quite laughable when you think about it. The devs' build of the 'canon' WoL is no better in this regard, picking and choosing when to be absolutely affronted by evil, and who is somehow through some asinine, insane logic is for whatever reason worthy of all-encompassing, ultimate forgiveness.

The Omicron existential crisis was around losing track of their sense of self through an endless series of augmentations. It was the opposite of most conquering empires - they had no sense of ego or 'self' strong enough to give them purpose and push them onwards to further conquests, which eventually pulled their society into a standstill. There was no mission. They desired no legacy. They had nothing to prove.

This sort of setup could always be exploited to turn them against us, but I'm sure that Omega would have something to say about that.