AST (and DRG) had their improvements pushed to 7.0 PLD are getting theirs in 6.3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by T-Owl

The played reality though is, that currently the core appeal of playing a healer is being able to enter Savage and even moderately well with a far lower skill level than what is required of any other role. I bite my ass that I made the decission to jump back into raiding in Endwalker as a Healer, because returning to other, challenging roles really shows how the Healer role had get me used to playing on a lower difficulty level than the rest of the team.

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/sigh

And this is the kind of nonsense hyperbole elitism that ruins everything.

From the fights I've done, Tanking requires both less skill and less stress than Healing does. Especially on WAR, but pretty much on GNB, too. Tank rotations aren't that difficult, and generally you aren't watching out for party health - if you are, things have already gone horribly wrong and it's likely about to be a wipe because you aren't a PLD that can Cover the healer while they recover the situation and the Enrage isn't lax enough for that to work into a clear anyway.

WAR is hyper easy, and most bosses require little if any positioning. The only thing for the OT to worry about in P2S is going to the right wall for the blue man mechanics and taking the tether away from the party. The MT grabs the boss and just...turns it. That's essentially it. Oh, and both use CDs for the double Tank buster. That's really it. Every other mechanic they deal with, all the other players are also dealing with.

P1S has roughly 3 Tank swaps, which can be invulned through. Otherwise, Tank faces the boss north to make your melee's life a little easier and they meet the same mechanic requirements as every other player. ESPECIALLY if using braindead strat for intemp. And if not doing so, only one of them really has to worry about it, and all players, including healers, have to manage their intemp stacks. Healing P1S is more difficult than Tanking P1S is.

This also goes for a lot of the Extremes. Healing ZodEx is more difficult than Tanking it is - the only unique Tank mech there is a single Tank swap that you do, what, three times? And HydEx can be solo Tanked!

While you can argue Tanking is more difficult in some fights than those, Healing is also more difficult in other fights than those.

.

No, healing is not just for lazy/bad/low skilled players to get carries. I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's you being either an elitist, wrong, or both. I've done Healing and then gone to do other, LESS challenging roles like DPS and Tanking and been shocked at how much easier they are getting to play on a lower difficulty than the Healers on the team, who have to be playing on a higher skill level.

EDIT: Typo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No, healing is not just for lazy/bad/low skilled players to get carries. I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's you being either an elitist, wrong, or both. I've done Healing and then gone to do other, LESS challenging roles like DPS and Tanking and been shocked at how much easier they are getting to play on a lower difficulty than the Healers on the team, who have to be playing on a higher skill level.

---

I wouldn't necessarily say it's for the lazy, at least not in Abyssos. But my brain cannot be engaged by a role that spends hundreds of GCDs pressing one button over and over and over and over again, with the occasional dip into a boring, noninteractive healing oGCD or boring, noninteractive GCD. The window where your ability to rescue flagging parties gets narrower the harder the content gets; mechanics that one-shot you for failure get more common, and a tight enrage that kills your party for more than one or two mistakes renders the safety net a great healer can provide less useful.

Healers get more boring the more skilled you get. More Glare GCDs is your reward for playing well. This is bad game design.

I really can't wrap ahead around looking at the healing role as it is and saying, "Yeah, I like that. One DPS button I spend almost the entire fight mashing like it's a Mario Party minigame, that's what I want to play." Even if you're in the camp of not wanting more DPS complexity on the healers, wouldn't you still want your GCD to encourage you to heal and support more rather than mash one attack spell?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

/sigh

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I'm just describing the reality of the healer role. Its distinct feature compared to other roles are its simplicity. you are mostly spamming a 1 button rotation and instead of added complexity or at least business, additional skills you gain while leveling make the class easier, because you get more and more ressources to not stop dpsing thrown at you. I mean, someone else repleid to me with a massive amount of copium of how the healer role is actually harder than the supposedly easy dps, when it is just not. DPS have to perform rotations while at the same time engaging with boss mechanics and keep their cds properly alligned for their 1 minute and 2 minute burst windows, while healers for most of the time just have to care about 1 button spamming and weaving in their plentiful ogcd ressources at pretty set moments in any encounter, because all damage is scripted.

It is objectively the easiest job, compared to the rotations other classes have to kept memorize and perform together with moss mechanics. For other classes, additional abilities become additional bloat to manage, for healers they become additional healing ressources to not having to cast heals. And yeah, its an elitist viewpoint, because in this community, trying to play healers well and not rely on cure 1 spam is already a hardcore gamer move.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No, healing is not just for lazy/bad/low skilled players to get carries. I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's you being either an elitist, wrong, or both. I've done Healing and then gone to do other, LESS challenging roles like DPS and Tanking and been shocked at how much easier they are getting to play on a lower difficulty than the Healers on the team, who have to be playing on a higher skill level.

---

I have but three words for you: Pot. Kettle. Black.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I wouldn't necessarily say it's for the lazy, at least not in Abyssos. But my brain cannot be engaged by a role that spends hundreds of GCDs pressing one button over and over and over and over again, with the occasional dip into a boring, noninteractive healing oGCD or boring, noninteractive GCD. The window where your ability to rescue flagging parties gets narrower the harder the content gets; mechanics that one-shot you for failure get more common, and a tight enrage that kills your party for more than one or two mistakes renders the safety net a great healer can provide less useful.

Healers get more boring the more skilled you get. More Glare GCDs is your reward for playing well. This is bad game design.

---

I guess I do want to ask something here - on the topic of hyperbole - do you really press only one button?

I'm not talking GCDs. I'm talking buttons.

When I heal encounters, on WHM, the braindeadest of the braindead, the following are all buttons I hit frequently (and by "frequently" I mean "multiple times per minute" for buttons with no CD or "roughly on cooldown" for buttons with a cooldown):

Glare
Dia
Misery
Rapture
Solace

Presence of Mind
Divine Benison
Aquaveil
Assize
Asylum
Lucid Dreaming
Tetragrammaton

Do you seriously not hit those buttons? And note my definition of frequently. LESS frequently, but still used, also include Temperance, Liturgy of the Bell, Thin Air, Swiftcast, Raise, Plenary Indulgence, Medica 2, and occasionally Holy and rarely Cure 2, and really rarely, Cure 3. So I frequently hit 5 GCDs and 7 oGCDs, and less frequently hit 4 other GCDs much more situationally and 5 more oGCDs.

And this is on WHM.

On SCH and trying out AST, I seem to find myself hitting a lot more buttons because there are a lot more tools, oGCD weaves, and for AST, buffs.

I get you ARE spending "hundreds" of GCDs on Glare (and Dia), but you're also pressing a lot of other buttons in the interim, are you not? Or are you one of those bad healers that doesn't use oGCD healing tools? (That's sarcasm: I know you aren't one of those.)

You can argue they're "boring", but "boring" is a subjective term, not an objective one. I find DPS rotations either boring, annoying, or both. I can't say I've seen a DPS rotation I would describe as "exciting".

I do agree on the ability to rescue getting narrow in harder content, though.

You say more Glare is bad game design, but what would YOU say is "good" game design? More DPS button presses? On a HEALER? Many would say that, in fact, would be the bad game design.

.

EDIT:

I feel like the main problem in discussing the state of healers is that it seems impossible for people to do it without (a) rampant hyperbole and (b) stating subjective opinions as if they are universally agreed upon facts. If you guys could move away from doing those two little things, the conversation could probably advance far better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I really can't wrap ahead around looking at the healing role as it is and saying, "Yeah, I like that. One DPS button I spend almost the entire fight mashing like it's a Mario Party minigame, that's what I want to play." Even if you're in the camp of not wanting more DPS complexity on the healers, wouldn't you still want your GCD to encourage you to heal and support more rather than mash one attack spell?

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That's the thing - I and others have said, many many times, that we would LOVE to see healers have things like short duration buffs (that aren't RNG based or CD based like AST) on healers. Imagine if, for example, AST's Cards had smaller buffs, but lasted 10 sec and there was no CD on Draw so you could just fling cards left and right when you weren't actively needing to heal. Some people would love that.

Many of us - including me - have also advocated for having "the dps one, the buff one, etc" when it comes to healers, using the fact we have 4 healer Jobs to appeal to different playstyles of healer.

The problem is the "dps, more dps, more dps buttons, less healing, less healing buttons, and anyone who wants anything else is lazy/bad/etc etc" crowd won't have it.

As _I_ have said a number of times, we have 4 healers, let's leverage that to appeal to different playstyles. Some healer players would love to be buff bots. Many would love to be debuffers, but sadly FFXIV's combat system doesn't work for that at all. Many want to be dps bots. Some want a complicated dps rotation on par with a Red Job. Some absolutely love the system AS IT IS TODAY.

We have four healers, let's have one of each flex into each of those roles and see where the community/players go.

I suspect the reason a lot of "dps and only dps" proponents dislike that idea is because they know, deep down, their playstyle is the less popular one and many more players would rather play EW WHM than HW SCH. But my personal position is that as long as they are tuned (just the numbers game) to be approximately equal in damage output (the "only metric that matters"), then it shouldn't matter if one presses 10 DPS buttons to get there or another presses 1, players will pick the one they like best and more people will be happy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by T-Owl

I'm just describing the reality of the healer role.

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No, you aren't. You're describing a subjective take that also happens to be a pretty insulting one to anyone who doesn't prefer your playstyle.

Healers DAMAGE KITS are simple, but not their healing and mitigation kits. Further, are you seriously going to argue that SMN's 2 button "rotation" and WAR's 1-2-3, weave 3 oGCDs, keep up a GENEROUS 30 sec buff that stacs to 60 (and is completely automatic in AOE), and use button 5 to dump resources or in burst is somehow galaxy brain compared to SCH optimizing Energy Drain use? Or MCH's 1-2-3, smash other GCDs on CD, in fact use MOST things on CD, and occasionally line things up into burst with a few general pointers (e.g. don't use Hypercharge when something's within 8 sec of so of coming off CD)?

Further, what makes a role HARD or CHALLENGING or REQUIRE SKILL is how it must use its kit while performing boss/encounter mechanics. Healer damage kits are simple because mechanics often require them to use their NON-DAMAGE KIT to deal with said mechanics. DPSer rotations are not "hard" in FFXIV (as people are fond of saying), the "skill" comes in performing them while performing mechanics. You're ignoring the larger portion of the skill puzzle by completely ignoring mechanics and that healers often have to engage with mechanics as much OR MORE than other roles do. Healers have to be engaged with tank buster/swap/etc mechanics and also DPS blue man/etc type mechanics, often have healer specific mechanics that no other role is engaged in or connected to at all or with anything other than possibly pushing an oGCD 1-2 times in a given fight, if that, and they have to do all this while making up for other players' mistakes.

I'm confused how you think that's "easy".

I also like how you put complexity and business together. You're not talking skill. You're talking busywork and plate spinning.

I also like that you (sarcastically) admitted the take on you being an elitist is correct. The issue is you don't even know what that is. No one in this thread or arguing against you is a Cure 1 spammer. Note the list of abilities above I said that I use frequently and infrequently. I actually try to see how much of fights I can clear without using a GCD heal (or none other than Solace/Rapture, anyway) as a matter of course. Which is the opposite of being a Cure 1 spammer.

.

It is SUBJECTIVELY - to you and those that think like you - the easiest role.

You are, like I mentioned above in this post, confusing your SUBJECTIVE opinion with OBJECTIVE facts and insisting your SUBJECTIVE position is OBJECTIVE reality.

Again: This is why we can't have nice things or productive discussions. You guys need to stop stating your OPINIONS as FACTS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Punslinger

I have but three words for you: Pot. Kettle. Black.

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You have three words, but they don't apply here in any way. The latter part was a retort in-kind, a common discussion tactic to demonstrate the absurdity of someone's position by showing a reflection of it. The former is not a pot/kettle situation since I'm not an elitist tryhard, and the other poster even admitted it was correct to classify them as such (albeit with sarcasm)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

snip

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Can you like just not immediately being so aggressive? You sound pretty toxic and hostil right now, just because I pointed out the reality of healing roles. Its really uncomfortable. Healing roles just by nature of how they are effectively utilized in this game, which has nothing to do with elitism or skill and basic knowledge, become easier as they progress in levels, because while in other games you utilize your generic casts more often and may hold some cds for emergencies, in this one you use your limited ogcd cooldowns for general healing purposes and use your generic healing casts for emergencies. By virtue of most aquired abilities from level 50 onwards being ogcd cooldowns, you get more and more ressources to prevent losing dps uptime. The healer kit growing just makes healers objectively easier, while for any other classes, they get harder by additions to their kit because their general pace increases with more ogcds and it is more cooldowns which they need to keep properly alligned and rolling, while healer get more material to fill the gaps between their pre-existing cooldowns, which makes it easier to not prematurely run out of ogcd heals.

I mean, outside of very few mechanics with very high and rapidly incoming damage which needs to be planned out, what is hard about healers? They have to perform mechanics while pressing one button, with almost all damage being predictable and unpredictable damage being rarely recoverable from, if happening in a row.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

That's the thing - I and others have said, many many times, that we would LOVE to see healers have things like short duration buffs (that aren't RNG based or CD based like AST) on healers. Imagine if, for example, AST's Cards had smaller buffs, but lasted 10 sec and there was no CD on Draw so you could just fling cards left and right when you weren't actively needing to heal. Some people would love that.

Many of us - including me - have also advocated for having "the dps one, the buff one, etc" when it comes to healers, using the fact we have 4 healer Jobs to appeal to different playstyles of healer.

The problem is the "dps, more dps, more dps buttons, less healing, less healing buttons, and anyone who wants anything else is lazy/bad/etc etc" crowd won't have it.

As _I_ have said a number of times, we have 4 healers, let's leverage that to appeal to different playstyles. Some healer players would love to be buff bots. Many would love to be debuffers, but sadly FFXIV's combat system doesn't work for that at all. Many want to be dps bots. Some want a complicated dps rotation on par with a Red Job. Some absolutely love the system AS IT IS TODAY.

We have four healers, let's have one of each flex into each of those roles and see where the community/players go.

I suspect the reason a lot of "dps and only dps" proponents dislike that idea is because they know, deep down, their playstyle is the less popular one and many more players would rather play EW WHM than HW SCH. But my personal position is that as long as they are tuned (just the numbers game) to be approximately equal in damage output (the "only metric that matters"), then it shouldn't matter if one presses 10 DPS buttons to get there or another presses 1, players will pick the one they like best and more people will be happy.

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I think you're misinterpreting this aspect. This game has 2 major aspects to all encounter design: The boss mechanics and your jobs rotation. Healers are denied that second half because they don't have a rotation. Much of the engagement any given player will feel as a healer is self-inflicted healxiety over seeing healthbars drop and not having the familiarity of the job enough to feel in control even when things turn out fine. Or it's a lack of fight design experience, such as when a new raid tier comes out, which means planning your resources in the form of content that actually asks you to use at least half of your healing buttons can be a process of trial and error--a process that is short lived.

As it stands, the current design of healers benefits none of the archetypes of healer players you listed at a higher level. 80-100% 1 button DPS spam does not appeal to players who want an offensive healer because they want a real rotation. It does not appeal to players who want to be support-focused buff bots because they're forced to continuously engage with the enemy rather than their teammates if they want to adequately contribute to the party. It does not appeal to players who want debuff-focused control healers because there are no debuffs to inflict. It does not appeal to players who want to power heal through large quantities of damage because there is no damage being delivered in most content, and even in savage once you've gotten familiar with a particular fight there are still wide spans of time between outgoing damage.

Why "more DPS" topics continue to thrive is because that is the most straightforward and easily addressable way to make the healers offer a legitimate gameplay loop given the combat system of this game. I promise all of these people would wholeheartedly appreciate other builds to each healer such as a dedicated buff healer if one could be made in such a way that respected FFXIV's encounter design and was able to feel balanced alongside the other healers, much like what I've talked about in the past.

The reason why those of us in this camp look at others not wanting the current status quo to change describe that as "lazy, bad, or low skill" is because the only logical explanation to why anyone would actively not want the current healer design to change is to preserve the current healer approach to content which, by design, excludes 50% of the expected player required engagement with content--having a rotation/gameplay loop. It comes across as "I don't want to work as hard as every other role. I want to continue not having to think about what buttons I press." There is no other logical explanation to this as, like I described earlier, the current healer design benefits literally none of the camps of healer players other than those who like that they can hit max optimization with virtually no effort outside of boss mechanics. It also demands that existing jobs not be allowed to grow and develop over the course of the game as some players never want to engage with anything other than the barest of minimums, and that feels very aggravating to the rest of us who want all the healers to feel engaging in their own ways. No job should have to be handicapped because some people are disinterested in putting in the other half of the expected effort required to play this game.

If we absolutely MUST have the no-effort-required healer, why not split CNJ off into its own thing: CNJ II? WHM gets to have an actual rotation with engaging tools and adequate utility, and CNJ II gets a stronger 1 button nuke that compensates for the loss of WHM's otherwise more varied gameplay style, lacks in utility and mitigation like current WHM does, but otherwise is capable of keeping up enough with the other healers to get through content. We can even ax Aero/Dia and it quite literally just has 1 DPS button. Would that satisfy you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by T-Owl

Can you like just not immediately being so aggressive? You sound pretty toxic and hostil right now, just because I pointed out the reality of healing roles. Its really uncomfortable.

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Can you like, not just immediately be so aggressive and rude? You sound pretty toxic and hostile right now, just because I pointed out you're not dealing in reality, you're trafficking in opinion. It's really uncomfortable.

Look, ceasefire/peace treaty/armistice?

All I'm saying is you AREN'T pointing out "reality". And no amount of times you SAYING so will make it true. You can say "reality" over and over again, you're still not talking about reality.

All I'm saying to you is what you are doing is talking abut your subjective opinion. You just want your subjective opinion to be objective reality because "____ is fact" has more weight with people than "I think ____". For my part, I'm fine with people having opinions, so I won't fault you for expressing them. I will fault you with insisting your opinions are facts when they are not. Fair? I've even explained why it's not fact to you as a courtesy already.

You having an opinion that healers are easy or boring or whatever is perfectly fine. It is your opinion, and opinions DO matter, but they also aren't facts. What this means is that they are not universal. Not everyone will hold that position, so healers should not be changed (or not ALL healers be changed) for that. See my longstanding position above about how we should leverage the fact (and it is a fact) that we have four healers (five if you count WAR) to encourage and enable different players' playstyles to have a place in the game.

It also doesn't help that your position is one which attacks the role and players in it, both unfairly and for no good reason. Doing so certainly doesn't help in the discussion, at the very least. Again, WAR is subjectively easier than SCH or AST. So is SMN. So is MCH. And some people might argue this is true of other Jobs/roles as well, but I'll stop with those since the cases largely speak for themselves.

Again, stop saying "reality" and "objectively" when what you are referring to is "opinion" and "subjectively" and I won't have any cause to contest you on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Toxic snip

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Dude, you are literally gaslighting people instead of making arguments and call other people toxic. Sorry that I don't care about publicly calling out online abusers? No armistice, try self-improvement. But considering the fact that basically every single dedicated savage healer is telling you that healers played at a level were optimization matters are not fine and that the role is just not engaging or exciting the way it is designed right now when trying to optimize, I would say you prefer entitlement. Your entire argument after all is based aroudn the fact that you don't want healers to change because you consider having to perform a rotation that is more busy than pressing 1 too stressful and not rewarding, while somehow mental gymnasticing roles which have rotations that require more different buttons to be pressed to be easier. Thats trying to make people engage in doublethink, which again is an abuse tactic. Sorry, you are not the nice guy. Sorry, Healers are heavily flawed in this game. They lack distinct healing styles compared to any other mmo on the market outside of maybe some very oldschool ones and they get progressively easier and repepetetive due to getting more and more ogcd ressources which are, even in high end content, only situationally all required.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I guess I do want to ask something here - on the topic of hyperbole - do you really press only one button?

I'm not talking GCDs. I'm talking buttons.

When I heal encounters, on WHM, the braindeadest of the braindead, the following are all buttons I hit frequently (and by "frequently" I mean "multiple times per minute" for buttons with no CD or "roughly on cooldown" for buttons with a cooldown):

Glare
Dia
Misery
Rapture
Solace

Presence of Mind
Divine Benison
Aquaveil
Assize
Asylum
Lucid Dreaming
Tetragrammaton

Do you seriously not hit those buttons? And note my definition of frequently. LESS frequently, but still used, also include Temperance, Liturgy of the Bell, Thin Air, Swiftcast, Raise, Plenary Indulgence, Medica 2, and occasionally Holy and rarely Cure 2, and really rarely, Cure 3. So I frequently hit 5 GCDs and 7 oGCDs, and less frequently hit 4 other GCDs much more situationally and 5 more oGCDs.

And this is on WHM.

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Do you press those buttons? Sure. Is it even remotely comparable to the amount of times you spam 1? HAHAHA, no


Let me show you this, it is a random log I took from the publicly available site that shall not be named. It's a log for P6S, 4th percentile dps, 87th percentile healing, so a log where the WHM did a massive amount of healing and barely any dps.


https://i.imgur.com/OBn7wnr.png


I think this speaks for itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I think this speaks for itself.

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I think we...might be interpreting this differently?

The post of mine you quoted, I was pointing out one of the problems of this topic is the RAMPANT HYPERBOLE. People saying they just press 1 button for entire fights.

The image you linked shows that their most pressed button is less than half of their button presses. A bit less than 9 in 20, actually (43.99% < 45%, which would be 9 out of 20). Meaning they press other buttons as more than half of their button presses.

I don't DISagree that that's still a lot, and Glare 3 should be closer to 20-25% instead of 44%, but 44% is alsy <<< 99% or 100%. That's the hyperbole I was addressing. And yes, that image DOES speak for itself: Disproving the "All we do is spam one button" once and for all. Which was...kinda my point? o.O

EDIT:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by T-Owl

Toxic snip

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Dude, YOU are literally gaslighting people instead of making arguments and call other people toxic.

Seriously, I'm not trying to "I know you are but what am I?" here with you, but you're actually doing the thing you're accusing me of.

UNLIKE your accusation, I've been consistent about making arguments. And I even offered you an olive branch and YOU are the one being toxic and gaslighting by rejecting it so you can continue on your toxic rampage.

While saying I'm gaslighting and not making arguments, what are you doing? You're not making a single argument and you go into a gaslighting spree, calling me...let's see..."gaslighting", an "online abuser", who needs "self-improvement", sidelong saying I'm not a good/optimized player/lack skill, "prefer entitlement", LIE ABOUT MY ARGUMENT (I literally said MULTIPLE TIMES that I think healers SHOULD change and here you gaslight by saying my argument is I "don't want healers to change"? Like what in the ACTUAL hell? That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I've said...), who thinks pressing more than 1 button is "too stressful" (when I've ACTIVELY argued for other buttons to press - seriously, did you even READ my posts before going on the warpath?? If you didn't, it would explain your lying and bad faith gaslighting...), trying to "make people engage in doublethink", engaging in an "abuse tactic", and who isn't "the nice guy" despite me trying to reach out to you in kindness.

You're not calling out an online abuser: You ARE the online abuser.

.

I think I'm just going to try to ignore you going forward because HOLY HELL you are a toxic, abusive personality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I think we...might be interpreting this differently?

The post of mine you quoted, I was pointing out one of the problems of this topic is the RAMPANT HYPERBOLE. People saying they just press 1 button for entire fights.

The image you linked shows that their most pressed button is less than half of their button presses. A bit less than 9 in 20, actually (43.99% < 45%, which would be 9 out of 20). Meaning they press other buttons as more than half of their button presses.

I don't DISagree that that's still a lot, and Glare 3 should be closer to 20-25% instead of 44%, but 44% is alsy <<< 99% or 100%. That's the hyperbole I was addressing. And yes, that image DOES speak for itself: Disproving the "All we do is spam one button" once and for all. Which was...kinda my point? o.O

---

https://imgur.com/a/A5R8H3k

Is this a better example, 99% uptime 78% of casts were broil the rest were either biolysis or energy drain with like 1 cast of ruin 2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

https://imgur.com/a/A5R8H3k

Is this a better example, 99% uptime 78% of casts were broil the rest were either biolysis or energy drain with like 1 cast of ruin 2

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You need to check the overall casts, not just the damage ones.


But even with the log I posted you need to keep in mind that it was about as unoptimized as you can get, multiple raises, Cure II/III and Medica II hardcasts, probably more than necessary even with the deaths. In any normal run that doesn't turn into chaos those would've been Glare as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

You need to check the overall casts, not just the damage ones.


But even with the log I posted you need to keep in mind that it was about as unoptimized as you can get, multiple raises, Cure II/III and Medica II hardcasts, probably more than necessary even with the deaths. In any normal run that doesn't turn into chaos those would've been Glare as well.

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I only included damage because she never cast succor nor adlo, her damage casts=her total casts

Funny how even when unoptimized more time are still spent on throwing that Glare about as much as a tank do their AAs.

If we're going by GCDs than I can guarantee you that even in the average normal raid run with a random healer, my GCDs will be 100% or very close to it spent on my dot & filler spell.

While it's true that we use other buttons to heal, tell any dps they'll only get 2 skills, one a 30s duration dot, to press constantly while the rest is oGCDs they have to keep on cooldown but pressing them will lose value over time as people get better gear and learn the fights.
Or tanks that all their combos and fancy GCDs go into the trash bin, they're left with one filler and one dot and simply have to use mit and a few damage oGCDs but, again, their oGCDs would lose value over time because of better gear and better overall execution of the mechanics.
They'll be happy.

That is the state of healers: GCDs are almost exclusively spend on dps and any oGCDs you use will become less valuable quite quickly.

In one of my latest reclears, I spend 207 of 331 total actions (including things like potion and sprint) on Broil IV. 19 on Biolysis. And I still had some chonky overheal on some skills and could easily just not press them and nothing of value would've been lost. At this stage, I press them more out of boredom and not because anyone actually needs them.

The first unavoidable raidwide in p6 happens after 1min followed by more nothing happening for another 90s.
Carby also has huge gaps between incoming damage. Tree even has a full 2min gap at one point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

If we're going by GCDs than I can guarantee you that even in the average normal raid run with a random healer, my GCDs will be 100% or very close to it spent on my dot & filler spell.

While it's true that we use other buttons to heal, tell any dps they'll only get 2 skills, one a 30s duration dot, to press constantly while the rest is oGCDs they have to keep on cooldown but pressing them will lose value over time as people get better gear and learn the fights.
Or tanks that all their combos and fancy GCDs go into the trash bin, they're left with one filler and one dot and simply have to use mit and a few damage oGCDs but, again, their oGCDs would lose value over time because of better gear and better overall execution of the mechanics.
They'll be happy.

That is the state of healers: GCDs are almost exclusively spend on dps and any oGCDs you use will become less valuable quite quickly.

In one of my latest reclears, I spend 207 of 331 total actions (including things like potion and sprint) on Broil IV. 19 on Biolysis. And I still had some chonky overheal on some skills and could easily just not press them and nothing of value would've been lost. At this stage, I press them more out of boredom and not because anyone actually needs them.

The first unavoidable raidwide in p6 happens after 1min followed by more nothing happening for another 90s.
Carby also has huge gaps between incoming damage. Tree even has a full 2min gap at one point.

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Snake lady’s opening like 3 minutes is almost offensive to healers at this point, sure the tank DOT damage is a step in the right direction as healer kits are pretty poor oGCD wise for sustained high damage on 2 targets (CC/BJ say hi) but damn if this tier is going to scale terribly for AOE damage

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I guess I do want to ask something here - on the topic of hyperbole - do you really press only one button?

I'm not talking GCDs. I'm talking buttons.

When I heal encounters, on WHM, the braindeadest of the braindead, the following are all buttons I hit frequently (and by "frequently" I mean "multiple times per minute" for buttons with no CD or "roughly on cooldown" for buttons with a cooldown):

Glare
Dia
Misery
Rapture
Solace

Presence of Mind
Divine Benison
Aquaveil
Assize
Asylum
Lucid Dreaming
Tetragrammaton

Do you seriously not hit those buttons? And note my definition of frequently. LESS frequently, but still used, also include Temperance, Liturgy of the Bell, Thin Air, Swiftcast, Raise, Plenary Indulgence, Medica 2, and occasionally Holy and rarely Cure 2, and really rarely, Cure 3. So I frequently hit 5 GCDs and 7 oGCDs, and less frequently hit 4 other GCDs much more situationally and 5 more oGCDs.

And this is on WHM.

On SCH and trying out AST, I seem to find myself hitting a lot more buttons because there are a lot more tools, oGCD weaves, and for AST, buffs.

I get you ARE spending "hundreds" of GCDs on Glare (and Dia), but you're also pressing a lot of other buttons in the interim, are you not? Or are you one of those bad healers that doesn't use oGCD healing tools? (That's sarcasm: I know you aren't one of those.)

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So I see you read my post, and then immediately launched into an argument against what you wished I said: "All I do is press one single button". And then when you reached the end of that, you admitted that all I actually said was that I pressed it hundreds of times over and over and over and over again, which is boring. But hey, if you're so fixated on complaining about your opponents' hyperbole because you don't feel like actually engaging with their arguments, I'll bite. I cast Glare so many times in any given encounter that it feels like that's all I do. Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare until the word reaches semantic satiation and it doesn't feel like more than a meaningless grunted syllable.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

You can argue they're "boring", but "boring" is a subjective term, not an objective one. I find DPS rotations either boring, annoying, or both. I can't say I've seen a DPS rotation I would describe as "exciting".

I do agree on the ability to rescue getting narrow in harder content, though.

You say more Glare is bad game design, but what would YOU say is "good" game design? More DPS button presses? On a HEALER? Many would say that, in fact, would be the bad game design.

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I have made peace with the fact that I will never agree with Sylphies on this nonsense. This is Healers Should Heal Only in one of its various evening gowns. Oh no, anything but kit interactivity. The healer role would be rent asunder if poor healers had to do any thinking beyond pressing Glare a million times and farting out an oGCD heal once in a while. No engagement in MY role, that sounds like you're a dirty infiltrator DPS main trying to do DAMAGE on my precious kawaii princess healer role.

Healers are multitasker support classes in practically every RPG that's ever existed. Characters with healing abilities often use them sparingly and thoughtfully. They buff. They debuff. They spend most of their time doing damage. This is true of many, many, many RPGs. This dogged insistence that healers should clutch their ball gowns and faint in horror at the idea of doing anything beyond spamming Cure is....not the RPGs I'm familiar with.

That right there? ^ That was a little hyperbole. And I'm certain you're going to complain about any light exaggerations in it instead of actually addressing the point.

Pressing one button hundreds of times, back to back, over and over and over again in an encounter is, with the exception of a hypothetical situation where you just stand in place picking your nose, perhaps the closest thing to -objectively- boring as you can get. It's a total snore. I was tired of my main job being pushed and pushed and pushed in that direction. I argued against it. I'm now out of the healing role for anything but leveling to max this expansion, because the entire role was pushed into being this boring as of Shadowbringers. It's unengaging. The skill ceiling is unfun. I play healers in a large majority of games I've tried, and as of Endwalker FF14 has managed to present the least engaging, the least entertaining, and the most superfluous of the healers I have ever seen designed. It takes a REALLY badly designed healer to get me to toss my staff out. FF14 managed to do it.

I cannot imagine how anyone finds Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare to be good game design. Fill a board with other MMO names. Close your eyes and throw a dart. Chances are you'll hit one with healers designed like their players have more than two neurons firing at any given time.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

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You know, the forums are, by in large, a place where you either preach to the choir or yell at brick wall in almost every instance of interaction, but its moments like these that remind me why I like coming back.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

You know, the forums are, by in large, a place where you either preach to the choir or yell at brick wall in almost every instance of interaction,

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It seems unfortunate, but that does largely seem to be the case. The issue seems to be hardliners - which includes most - that don't want anything other than everything. So when people point out different solutions, middle ground, or multi-faceted ones, they're attacked.

Then you get the sycophants cheering the attacks. /shrug

Despite leveling Dragoon I hardly played it outside that, But I heard mainly positive things, I think from what I've heard is it will be hard to make future changes so it makes sense why they're waiting for 7.0 In my opinion.

Astrologian generally doesn't need any emergency changes, I like the current state of the Job although It generally fits into the meta and the game (I believe) they even recently got some decent changes and I personally don't think they're in need of any Major rework, maybe potency adjustments but I don't really know, I think it's good that white mage fills the "beginner healer" while Astro is more for a challenge, I guess difficulty is subjective but I like how the job generally plays I don't think it needs any urgent reworks, maybe changes and adjustments.

The fact that Paladin wasn't changed despite being the poster boy, with the raid buffs being put into 2minutes shows that PLD prolly wasn't really looked at all to much this expansion, that a lot of blocking effects don't proprerly work with a lot of the new mechs put into harder content shows that PLD generally needs to be looked at, I don't think PLD's issues are just a "output issue" either but I doubt we will get much in the way of utility changes.
We're likely just going to get Fight or flight removed, super buffed req window and that's about it in all honesty I don't think the PLD changes are going to be considered too much, I would like a general rework (PLD currently is fun though) but It's likely just gonna change existing PLD into a burst job.

I could be wrong they could change things like how PLD's utility isn't even that good and it's defensives suck, they could somehow make it's rotation even more fun then current pld but I don't think we're gonna get those changes it's going to be ways to simplify it and make sure it fits under raid buffs, I don't really see a preference here, I guess we will wait until the patch notes and just pray they're in a positive direction for the job. I hope Astro and DRG mains also get good changes in the future.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

The fact that Paladin wasn't changed despite being the poster boy, with the raid buffs being put into 2minutes shows that PLD prolly wasn't really looked at all to much this expansion

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I think it's less that they didn't look at Paladin and more that they arbitrarily decided that every party buff should be 2 minutes, because putting thought into what you're doing is heresy, without considering the consequences of stacking every damage multiplier in the same 15 second window and the effect it has on jobs that aren't designed around that. Paladin isn't at all the only job that suffers from the 2 minute meta.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Violent snip

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I'm not a man but thanks and you literally made an implicit threat against me in another threat. Which I reported you for.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

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You know. I actually would love of SE would design Encounters in which healers have to only heal and there is little room for dps, just because that design would consequently gate keep sylphies and guy who are all about I want to help others and be supportive ingame while threatening people in online forums from the entire role. People who already struggle with the low healing requirements and high ogcd healing opportunities in the current state of the game probably would crumble away and fail immediately at more involved healing styles, like for example wow and its constant incoming damage. We know that everyone of those people would immediately fail at full gcd healing uptime requirements.

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Originally Posted by T-Owl

You know. I actually would love of SE would design Encounters in which healers have to only heal and there is little room for dps, just because that design would consequently gate keep sylphies and guy who are all about I want to help others and be supportive ingame while threatening people in online forums from the entire role. People who already struggle with the low healing requirements and high ogcd healing opportunities in the current state of the game probably would crumble away and fail immediately at more involved healing styles, like for example wow and its constant incoming damage. We know that everyone of those people would immediately fail at full gcd healing uptime requirements.

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I mean, no need to look too far beyond. The current Abyssos' damage frequency has already begun to weed out some healers & 'sylphies' from the raiding scene. While overall AoE damage are still pushover (at least on first 2 floors, I still yet to reach 3rd floor & beyond), the incoming damage to the tanks are 100% on point of what should've been a "tankbuster" imho. Still, I really hope SE do not see this as a sign to double back to Asphodelos' rate of incoming damage though. If this slight increase in healing engagement is enough to weed out that many healers, then I wonder how much more will just raise their hands if they decide to go further.

A little bit of anecdote to take with grain of salt: I have a friend who only started PF'ing into Savage contents back in 6.05 as a WHM. They loved being a healer because they feel less pressured to dps, which is fine to some degree. I mean who cares so long they still contribute adequately for a clear, right? Then 6.2 Abyssos dropped. Bam! They reluctantly switched around DPSes beyond 2nd week prog/reclear because apparently the tank damage is 'too high' & it made them uncomfortable (they admitted letting tanks die more than usual). Interestingly, they also cited about seeing DPSes slots filling up way more frequently than healers which coincide with some other stories I heard about declining healers participation in PF.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I mean, no need to look too far beyond. The current Abyssos' damage frequency has already begun to weed out some healers & 'sylphies' from the raiding scene. While overall AoE damage are still pushover (at least on first 2 floors, I still yet to reach 3rd floor & beyond), the incoming damage to the tanks are 100% on point of what should've been a "tankbuster" imho. Still, I really hope SE do not see this as a sign to double back to Asphodelos' rate of incoming damage though. If this slight increase in healing engagement is enough to weed out that many healers, then I wonder how much more will just raise their hands if they decide to go further.

A little bit of anecdote to take with grain of salt: I have a friend who only started PF'ing into Savage contents back in 6.05 as a WHM. They loved being a healer because they feel less pressured to dps, which is fine to some degree. I mean who cares so long they still contribute adequately for a clear, right? Then 6.2 Abyssos dropped. Bam! They reluctantly switched around DPSes beyond 2nd week prog/reclear because apparently the tank damage is 'too high' & it made them uncomfortable (they admitted letting tanks die more than usual). Interestingly, they also cited about seeing DPSes slots filling up way more frequently than healers which coincide with some other stories I heard about declining healers participation in PF.

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The bleedbusters are a blessing imho.
We had all these fancy skills like ED, Exaltation, CI, Benison, Tetra, Veil, Protraction, Krasis, Haima, Aetherpact... but nobody needed them.

A friend of mine and I played a minigame of "dot uptime" when we both tanked on Hippo by constantly running into the water and trying to keep the Dropsy dot up as much as we could. It was a learning and intro event for people that didn't have any raid experience yet, mind you. Including the two healers. They didn't need to heal us at all. We were entirely fine with our selfheal while deliberately eating as much extra damage as we could.

Now healers finally have a good use for their single target heals. The only time I really used them was on bird add phase and when T/H got tethers on p4s part 1 to save aoe resources. Benison on each healer before the hit and more Rapture for Pinax, towers, orbs etc.
That's it. For an entire tier. At min ilvl no less.


And I find the reactions to the current raid tier quite amusing.
I've heard plenty of times how bleedbusters are a nightmare, how Tree is hell, how Carby's damage should be nerfed and so on. And when I hop into PF to help friends or get reclears on my alt, we frequently wipe to unavoidable back-to-back damage because on top of mitigation being bad in PF, many healers just don't heal in time and have no clue about when they press which button. It's rare to see a healer that at least has a general idea of when they use their big 2min/ 3min cooldown and do it somewhat consistently.
Quite recent example of this: my last Carby reclear party kept wiping to unavoidable damage and when I asked the WHM if he has a specific time for Lilybell, he first asked me which skill I mean. I used auto translate. Asked again, which skill that is supposed to be, told me to wait while he looks through his spellbook. Found it. Said "No idea. I just use something when I see a low HP bar". And that Temperance doesn't feel like it makes any difference so he doesn't use it. While we were getting one-shot through Kera + shields.

I think a big part of it though isn't so much that people who play healer are just bad, but that XIV's extreme reluctance to dish out the amount of damage needed to warrant the shear amount of healing tools we have has left healers unprepared to handle them effectively. And the problem is that SE will likely see this stress and then dial it back for the remaining raids. Then they'll go "well we tried to make fights deal more damage but everyone complained."

They need to keep this threshold of damage consistent and trickle that down into more casual content (by which I mean, introduce things like bleedbusters and double raidwides that can still be easier to manage in casual content, but gets people in the mindset of expecting that kind of heal check.) Over time, people will get better. At a certain point, you need to remove the training wheels, and just because your healer-child falls doesn't mean it's time to screw the training wheels back on. You have to let people fall if you want them to learn.

That's what it boils down to, isn't it?
SE is scared of letting healers fail. It's fine for tanks and dps to be able to fail but for some reason, healers must be exempt from this.
And I don't even think they're trying to do healers I favour there, I think they're more focussed on minimizing or outright deleting anything that could interrupt the flow for the rest of the party in case you get a worst case-healer.
The moment a healer could do something that results in unpleasant consequences (not that a death or even a wipe in any content is that bad) they're ready to screw the training wheels on again.

I liked Carby in that regard because despite the fairly frequent raidwides (21 vs 15 within ~9min compared to p6s), the raw damage is not that far above the average HP pool so it doesn't take much to just survive and deal with the healing afterwards.
And I feel like while teaching people to use mitigation is important, hits that don't one-shot as easily but are more frequent send a better message.

But I personally believe that if a healer is doing highend content, there should always be a certain understanding of their toolkit.
I do not care one bit about how much a dungeon might have coddled them, if someone is in a reclear party for savage fights, they have to know what their skills do. Period. No excuses there.
Testing the waters in practice parties, experimenting with timings and miscalculating and so on is fine. You have to get a feeling for the damage patterns and that is best done in practice, not in theory.
But I draw the line at not knowing your toolkit and what skills even do and that is something I see more often than I don't. Almost every time I try to coordinate a little bit, as a matter of fact.
Over the past 2 weeks I had exactly one healer that didn't reply with some form of "no idea what you mean xD / uh which skill? / one sec, need to bind it / no idea xD / uhm I'll just see, sometimes I use it there, sometimes not... I think?" when asking if use a big cooldown at specific times or could use them at specific times (e.g. Lilybell on 2nd tumult, Seraph for stack/ spread etc).
No elaborate mapping for all the buttons, just 1-2 skills on a long cooldown.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

You know, the forums are, by in large, a place where you either preach to the choir or yell at brick wall in almost every instance of interaction, but its moments like these that remind me why I like coming back.

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I'll be honest I've posted some wild shit here since I've been posting since I was like, seventeen, but gosh. Coming back here always fills me with a certain level of serotonin as I watch people try to argue that what we literally used to have in HW and SB for healer gameplay was 'bad', and that somehow reducing it to a majority of your uptime being broil is good for the healer fantasy.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I think a big part of it though isn't so much that people who play healer are just bad, but that XIV's extreme reluctance to dish out the amount of damage needed to warrant the shear amount of healing tools we have has left healers unprepared to handle them effectively. And the problem is that SE will likely see this stress and then dial it back for the remaining raids. Then they'll go "well we tried to make fights deal more damage but everyone complained."

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This is what annoys me so much. CBU3 has created an entire generation of healers that do not know what a proper healing challenge is, they don't know how to effectively use their toolkit or sometimes even what their toolkit can do in the first place, because they never needed to. They were exempt from failure for over 2 years and it really shows when they face anything that can't just be facerolled through.

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Originally Posted by T-Owl

Violent snip

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You know, I think I AM going to just ignore you. I replied to you there, you can go read the reply there.

EDIT: And so you know, your behavior is reportable...

But I'm going to move on and try to ignore you now. You're just being a bully at this point and ruining everyone else's attempt at having an honest and decent discussion. You don't want to make peace with me, fine. Be Putin. I'm more interested in having good faith discussions with other people.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I mean, no need to look too far beyond.

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I'm curious if this is a "good" thing or not.

Some people may love this, but if it ends up where parties aren't able to make because no one can find healers and the raid scene gets relegated to a small % of of the player base again, is that a good thing? I'm not so sure...

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Videra

I'll be honest I've posted some wild shit here since I've been posting since I was like, seventeen, but gosh. Coming back here always fills me with a certain level of serotonin as I watch people try to argue that what we literally used to have in HW and SB for healer gameplay was 'bad', and that somehow reducing it to a majority of your uptime being broil is good for the healer fantasy.

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I'm kind of curious: Who's making those arguments?

I attack hyperbole a lot because (a) it's annoying as all hell (do you enjoy when people "simply" your argument into one you aren't even making and gaslight you?) and (b) it prevents any ACTUAL discussion because all it's doing is alienating people for no reason who might otherwise agree with you in part on various compromise solutions.

Who is making the argument that a majority of uptime being Broil is good for the healer fantasy?

Most "Sylphies" want to be doing more healing/buffing (not Glarspamming), and most players on all sides of the argument are arguing for some change-up to some and/or all of the healer kits, either through adding a buffing functionality, a different damage kit, a different healing paradigm, or some combination.

I'm not sure I've seen literally anyone argue that they want the majority of their uptime being nukespam. I'm not going to say NO ONE has done it, but I haven't seen it.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

This is what annoys me so much. CBU3 has created an entire generation of healers that do not know what a proper healing challenge is, they don't know how to effectively use their toolkit or sometimes even what their toolkit can do in the first place, because they never needed to. They were exempt from failure for over 2 years and it really shows when they face anything that can't just be facerolled through.

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A second problem here is what the meta has deemed is bad. Almost anything in the game can be beaten with Cure2 spam (single target) or Medica 2 + Cure3 spam (AOE; Medica 1 if spreading is required), but people are so used to not pressing GCDs, there's an aversion to even hitting the buttons. Hell, you guys call me a Sylphie, but when I'm hitting my Cure 2 button because a run has gone off the rails and literally everything else is on CD, I feel genuinely bad having to do so.

The meta has developed to so incentivizing not touching GCDs, now that we're having realistic options to use some, people feel bad about using them. Doing my weekly normals last night, I decided to just case Regen on Tanks when they got the bleed. Made it super easy to keep their health up. But I hadn't been doing it because I'd been trying to "not cast a GCD heal other than Solace/Rapture" for so long, it felt like committing some kind of crime/sin to hit Regen because it was lowering my DPS uptime/potency to do so. It's frankly a weird feeling, considering to hear people here talk, I'm a "Curespamming Sylphie", but if even I felt that way, I would wager others who AREN'T such "Curespamming Sylphies" feel that way as well.

People are feeling overwhelmed, not because we don't have the tools to do it, but because we've been Pavlov Bell trained not to use them.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

That's what it boils down to, isn't it?
SE is scared of letting healers fail. It's fine for tanks and dps to be able to fail but for some reason, healers must be exempt from this.

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Part of the reason is optics.

If a Tank fails, it's generally not in a way that's noticeable (like can you tell for sure a Tank didn't use a mitigation at the last second? If you do parsing or have the run down to a science with the same geared Tank all the time, maybe, but otherwise, not so much), and if DPSers fail, it's also generally not noticeable unless they screwed up a mechanic and were in a COMPLETELY wrong place. Again, outside of running a parse, there's no clear way to tell if a specific DPSer wasn't pulling their weight, wiffing casts, etc. You just hit Enrage (or get closer than normal), but you can't isolate that down to a single person.

Moreover, when Tanks or DPS screw up, the Healer(s) are the ones to fix that. If someone takes avoidable damage, the Healers have to heal them. If someone dies, the Healers are generally the ones raising them. So when healers fail (e.g. both healers die to a mechanic), the run is over if you don't have a SMN/RDM unless you're already at the Enrage cast, and (for "soft enrages" where the boss is also sending out damage waves) the party may still die to that before finishing the boss off. Healers as a "point of failure" are so much more detrimental to a run - and IDENTIFIABLY detrimental for ridicule - that it makes the role less forgiving by nature.

That's why SE tries to make it more forgiving, and they've even pointed out this is why they do it. Because they know when Healers fail, the party fails and the community is not good at NOT being total jerks about it. When a DPSer or Tank fail, unless it's extremely obvious, they don't suffer that same ridicule. And, further, when they fail, Healers can potentially salvage the situation anyway.

Not ALL, but a significant enough segment of the community has become so toxic about this that SE feels, since they don't want to have a game with a toxic environment for players, they have to address it.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I think a big part of it though isn't so much that people who play healer are just bad, but that XIV's extreme reluctance to dish out the amount of damage needed to warrant the shear amount of healing tools we have has left healers unprepared to handle them effectively. And the problem is that SE will likely see this stress and then dial it back for the remaining raids. Then they'll go "well we tried to make fights deal more damage but everyone complained."

They need to keep this threshold of damage consistent and trickle that down into more casual content (by which I mean, introduce things like bleedbusters and double raidwides that can still be easier to manage in casual content, but gets people in the mindset of expecting that kind of heal check.) Over time, people will get better. At a certain point, you need to remove the training wheels, and just because your healer-child falls doesn't mean it's time to screw the training wheels back on. You have to let people fall if you want them to learn.

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This isn't a bad idea in vacuum.

But again, we run into the problem of the community being jerks about it.

In this game, people have become accustomed to a certain level of "success". We all know people will drop party or kick/blacklist people after a failure or two as it is. And moreover, many people in the community will defend that behavior - "They're in a clear group and don't want to waste their time" and the like.

But the consequence of that is, we can't have a punishing environment on the casual level because of that behavior. It's not like Burning Crusade in 2007 where you had to go to Capital cities and /shout chat or /trade chat to put together a party for Heroic dungeons, spend time traveling to the dungeon (because you can't just que on), and have already devoted an hour before you even START the dungeon such that people are willing to stick with things even if they go south. In FFXIV, if things go south, you leave and find another party/que for another run and are in again in under 5 minutes. And because everything is datacenter with random strangers, there's no community policing of toxic behavior like there was in WoW circa 2007.

That kind of game CAN exist and work, but it requires different game systems, different opportunity costs, and different mindset from the community.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

This is what annoys me so much. CBU3 has created an entire generation of healers that do not know what a proper healing challenge is, they don't know how to effectively use their toolkit or sometimes even what their toolkit can do in the first place, because they never needed to. They were exempt from failure for over 2 years and it really shows when they face anything that can't just be facerolled through.

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To be honest? I think one of the issues is how clunky healing actually is. In Effect, your heal spells would be your oh shit button if shit goes wrong and run out of other ressources, but healing casts are fairly slow in this game. There is also the issue that the entire Makro System is broken and mouse over healing is pretty clunky when seriously, mouse over healing should be the standart for MMOs right now. Outside of maybe very new beginners who haven't run into addons yet, you will not see people lovering themselves to tab target healing in WoW, because its just not an effective method of targeting very specific, changing targets. The way FF14 healing in general has evolved to work, use your cds first and your casts for oh shit moments, is also counter intuitive and something not teached to players by the game, because CBU3 is on full on copium that people don't hate and resent sylphies with a passion.

To all of you, if you see a healer in a dungeon who fully dedicates to healing and never ever dpsing, do you think "Oh, they're is so focussed on healing and supporting us, such a great person" or do you end up being annoyed because you know this will just drag the run?

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Originally Posted by T-Owl

To be honest? I think one of the issues is how clunky healing actually is. In Effect, your heal spells would be your oh shit button if shit goes wrong and run out of other ressources, but healing casts are fairly slow in this game. There is also the issue that the entire Makro System is broken and mouse over healing is pretty clunky when seriously, mouse over healing should be the standart for MMOs right now. Outside of maybe very new beginners who haven't run into addons yet, you will not see people lovering themselves to tab target healing in WoW, because its just not an effective method of targeting very specific, changing targets. The way FF14 healing in general has evolved to work, use your cds first and your casts for oh shit moments, is also counter intuitive and something not teached to players by the game,

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I honestly agree with everything here.

Cast time healing spells are, at this point, almost an afterthought, and not great at dealing with emergency situations, which are the situations you in theory are using them for. They work okay in scripted/expected situations, but you use oGCDs for those. I also agree that mouseover is nice for K&M players. I play with a controller, so...but I like FFXIV's targeting system with controllers, honestly. It's only awkward when trying to target someone not in a party with you.

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To all of you, if you see a healer in a dungeon who fully dedicates to healing and never ever dpsing, do you think "Oh, they're is so focussed on healing and supporting us, such a great person" or do you end up being annoyed because you know this will just drag the run?

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If I'm not healing, I'm tanking. And when I que for 4 mans, I don't do it if I am short on time. A run taking 5 mins longer doesn't bother me. If a healer is focused on healing (especially in lover level stuff), I'm perfectly fine with it. It means I won't die and can pull as much as I want. If they're only casting heals AND I'm dying anyway (like just targeting themselves and casting cure and letting everyone die), I suppose I might have an issue with that, but I've never seen it. If a healer is just healing, I'm fine with it.

EDIT: So to be clear with the answer - yes, I do think "They're so focused on healing and supporting us, they're a great/nice person". Though I also tend to think most people are nice unless given reason to think otherwise as my default setting. My assumption is that they're nice and probably nervous and maybe new, and I want to encourage them. So I'll usually also say something encouraging and give them a comm at the end. Especially if it seems they're relatively new. Everyone was new once, and the game doesn't really teach you that healers should be DPSers anyway.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I honestly agree with everything here.

Cast time healing spells are, at this point, almost an afterthought, and not great at dealing with emergency situations, which are the situations you in theory are using them for. They work okay in scripted/expected situations, but you use oGCDs for those. I also agree that mouseover is nice for K&M players. I play with a controller, so...but I like FFXIV's targeting system with controllers, honestly. It's only awkward when trying to target someone not in a party with you.

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It's very bizarre, the relationship between GCD heals and OGCD heals. The game never says anything directly about their relationship, but the way so many OGCD heals are gated behind higher levels, and the way a player would naturally think about GCD being a pseudo-limitless resource vs the cooldown-based OGCD heals... It paints a picture of GCD healing being your go-to and your OGCD heals being your panic buttons, but it's the exact opposite, and yet GCD heals don't feel like panic buttons at all. They largely have cast times, come at the opportunity cost of your damage contributions, and are what chews through your MP (which while not a challenging thing to manage for moderate-to-higher skilled healers, the players who would most likely feel the pressure to hit panic buttons are also largely the worst healers at managing their MP because they're quick to smack Cure III, or are the types of barrier healers that think the party needs to have a barrier on at all times).

Logically, it would make sense for GCD healing to be fast to cast as well as cheap--if not free on your MP simply because it has an opportunity cost of optimization. You can use them to feel safe and keep the party alive but your DPS output will drop as a result.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I honestly agree with everything here.

Cast time healing spells are, at this point, almost an afterthought, and not great at dealing with emergency situations, which are the situations you in theory are using them for. They work okay in scripted/expected situations, but you use oGCDs for those. I also agree that mouseover is nice for K&M players. I play with a controller, so...but I like FFXIV's targeting system with controllers, honestly. It's only awkward when trying to target someone not in a party with you.

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I can't talk about controller healing, though I heard from a friend that it seems easier than current K&M healing, but if SE really wants to make healing more accessible, simplifying their toolkit, incoming damage and reducing their dps rotation is really a small step compared to how much a build in smooth mouse over system would help. Just letting Voodoo run in WoW is such a night and day difference in what plays more smoothly.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

If I'm not healing, I'm tanking. And when I que for 4 mans, I don't do it if I am short on time. A run taking 5 mins longer doesn't bother me. If a healer is focused on healing (especially in lover level stuff), I'm perfectly fine with it. It means I won't die and can pull as much as I want. If they're only casting heals AND I'm dying anyway (like just targeting themselves and casting cure and letting everyone die), I suppose I might have an issue with that, but I've never seen it. If a healer is just healing, I'm fine with it.

EDIT: So to be clear with the answer - yes, I do think "They're so focused on healing and supporting us, they're a great/nice person". Though I also tend to think most people are nice unless given reason to think otherwise as my default setting. My assumption is that they're nice and probably nervous and maybe new, and I want to encourage them. So I'll usually also say something encouraging and give them a comm at the end. Especially if it seems they're relatively new. Everyone was new once, and the game doesn't really teach you that healers should be DPSers anyway.

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To be honest, even with new players it seems to be common knowledge to at least throw some dps spells when there is nothing to heal, pure healing is really more of an entitlement issue, where I am like, Yeah, there are other games for that. And you usually can see who is a newbie, where I personally feel like it should be at least common courtesy to tell them that cure 1 is a trap. But in that case, I also blame SE for not teaching new healers how healing in FF14 is usually done and making White Mage such a noob trap. Because its not a skill issue, its just an issue of knowing how to play healers in this game. With Endwalker I tried it out myself, after never seriously playing healer I just picked up Sage and just by knowing that dps uptime will become important later on, it was easy to utilize an aggressive playstyle.

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Originally Posted by T-Owl

To be honest, even with new players it seems to be common knowledge to at least throw some dps spells when there is nothing to heal, pure healing is really more of an entitlement issue, where I am like, Yeah, there are other games for that. And you usually can see who is a newbie, where I personally feel like it should be at least common courtesy to tell them that cure 1 is a trap. But in that case, I also blame SE for not teaching new healers how healing in FF14 is usually done and making White Mage such a noob trap. Because its not a skill issue, its just an issue of knowing how to play healers in this game. With Endwalker I tried it out myself, after never seriously playing healer I just picked up Sage and just by knowing that dps uptime will become important later on, it was easy to utilize an aggressive playstyle.

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One of my friends is a casual player who took a break after 5.4 and returned to EW in 6.1. She plays as a SCH, and during Tower of Zot, while she was trying to remember some of her cooldowns, she felt pushed to spamming Physick on the tank to keep them alive during big pulls between bosses 1 and 2, and especially in the pulls between bosses 2 and 3. The tank literally died anyway even with 100% of her GCDs going toward Physick, which proves just how bad these tier 1 heals are at this point.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I'm curious if this is a "good" thing or not.

Some people may love this, but if it ends up where parties aren't able to make because no one can find healers and the raid scene gets relegated to a small % of of the player base again, is that a good thing? I'm not so sure

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Yet people did clear, a decent amount that is! W/ all 4 healers, which is more than enough of a tell that it's not overtuned for the difficulty it implies, healing wise. There are even unorthodox comps arising such as dupe healers that can still clear just fine. But moving on..

Here's what never sits right to me from that bolded part:

• First of all. No matter how easy they make the job/role/duty, there's always the outliers from the top and the bottom percentile. By continuously pleasing the latter, before long we'll be at the rock bottom with nothing left to mutilate but somehow still seeing folks failing. On the flip side, this also often hurts the players who invested the most amount of time learning and loving the ins & outs of their chosen job. Why do I waste my time trying to learn my job/role or the duty if the correct answer to this is to just complain endlessly until they take away that nuance? I am never a fan of dumbing down for this reason unless said contents are vastly overtuned for the difficulty they implied.
  
• Then second. That's EX/Savage+ content we're talking about; player should at least understand what exactly to expect out of it. I.e. knowing how to play adequately w/ their chosen job/role, hours of learning be it figuring out the mechanics, figuring out what's the best action to counter said mechanic, dying -many- times, etc. It's all part of the package. I think that's totally fine and they should keep it that way. It's a content where people will get f***ed up real bad many times, not every content is made to please everybody. Those mechanics, deaths, hours invested, all acts as indicators to let players figure out whether said content is for them or not. That is why it's so weird that they're trying to lower that barrier of entry, the very thing that lets their player figure out what content they're likely suited for. There are multitude other content outside these high ends to tinker about; they can even unsync those later on! They're not missing out on anything.

Regarding the bleedbusters.. honestly? I relish it. Partly because:

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

[...]We had all these fancy skills like[...]

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This goes back to "why you give me all these fancy buttons if the tanks can just shrug it off with their own tools for the most of part"?

A mini example I remembered in Asphodelos tier, not once I ever considered to use 'Recitcogitation' in first two floors; not even normal Excog outside screw ups. It was largely reserved for 'Recitability' or Spreadlo.

P5S finally warrants some use of it. Granted it won't be too long until I'll cut back those out but man it feels ecstatic to finally have a different use for Recitation without needing to clear first two floors. Heck, even trying to catch the bleedbuster with Soil also feels great. My stacks no longer (at least for now..) went into mindless "hahalol 6 energy drains go brr brr".... and both of my previous and current statics aren't even mid-hardcore to begin with -.-

If you play PLD you know how janky its current kit is and how it really doesnt work well with the whole 2 minute burst window meta that the devs have developed. We have seen in almost every patch since EW release that PLD has seen some kind of adjustment.

While AST does need a rework, its kit is fine to last till the end of the expansion. DRG has reached critical mass so they need to rework the job inorder to be able to add things.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I'm curious if this is a "good" thing or not.

Some people may love this, but if it ends up where parties aren't able to make because no one can find healers and the raid scene gets relegated to a small % of of the player base again, is that a good thing? I'm not so sure...

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On that one, if endgame raids having serious healing checks that challenge healers is driving people off the role, isn't that proving my point of the role having become the one of low expectations?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

A second problem here is what the meta has deemed is bad.

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That isn't a meta issue though. Thats a gameplay issue, that healers are designed in a way that in most situations outside of general party failure which should justify a wipe and some rare high end game healing checks, those gcd skills come at an opportunity cost that just makes them not worth it, because in 99% percent of gameplay situations, you can perfectly keep the group alive without spending a single gcd heal. I mean, I wouldn't call myself the best of healers but just by virtue of my boyfriend knowing what he does when he tanks I could get away in expert roulette dungeons without spending gcd heals. Not to forget that these gcd tools are kinda shit for half the healer classes in the game, try picking up bloodbornes living failures having rolled a tank as a sage with gcd heals when you've been out of ogcds.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Part of the reason is optics.

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Then maybe the game shouldn't allow players to get away with so many mistakes. Like, just restrict all battle rezz in all encounters. Instead of punishing dps for failing mechanics, in most content death is an inconvenience to healers first and foremost. In WoW this problem in my opinion is less pronounced because the game doesn't pushes healers to fix the mistakes of others indefinetely. If you are lucky, you have a class with brezz and that one is highly limited by cd. If somebody failed mechanics, they failed. Though WoW in higher end dungeon content also pushes more responsibilities to tanks and dps, like cc and interrupts.