RDM underperforming by the way of neglect

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Originally Posted by remiff

Have you seen the statistics on recent raids, the difference in DPS between the red mage and the summoner is derisory on the overall RDPS, see in some fights the red mage is slightly above between 75% and 100%, if statics expel red mages for such a small difference, it's that they are bad and they haven't understood the real utility of the red mage who is able to rez several players, and especially to reduce damage with magic barrier, if the red mage would have more DPS than the summoner, it wouldn't make sense given how much more efficient the red mage's kit is.

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Psst the rez when needing to kill doesn't really matter. Also RDM should have more damage than SMN with it's near constant access of mobility and non pulse requiring rotation

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Psst the rez when needing to kill doesn't really matter. Also RDM should have more damage than SMN with it's near constant access of mobility and non pulse requiring rotation

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Overall the summoner's kit is about his personal survival, the red mage a lot of mobility on his rotation too, the summoner certainly only has 3-4 cast per minute which is not much and makes him almost as mobile as Phys range, and is very easy to play certainly, but the red mage has a better kit for the survival of the group, to put the summoner under the red mage would make it totally obsolete.

red mage and summoner have almost the same DPS,
and all compositions are able to kill a boss, some comps are just easier than others, especially since you get 900 tomestones during this raid without having adjustments on the bosses HP.

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Originally Posted by remiff

Overall the summoner's kit is about his personal survival, the red mage a lot of mobility on his rotation too, the summoner certainly only has 3-4 cast per minute which is not much and makes him almost as mobile as Phys range, and is very easy to play certainly, but the red mage has a better kit for the survival of the group, to put the summoner under the red mage would make it totally obsolete.

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Hey, if SMN wants damage then it should earn it. Because currently good balance isn't a thing. Summoner currently should be "obsolete" and for those types of people that won't push buttons

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Hey, if SMN wants damage then it should earn it. Because currently good balance isn't a thing. Summoner currently should be "obsolete" and for those types of people that won't push buttons

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So much unnecessary hate on the summoner, so ask the devs to fix it instead of saying ''easy jobs'' should be ''obsolete''.

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Originally Posted by remiff

So much unnecessary hate on the summoner, so ask the devs to fix it instead of saying ''easy jobs'' should be ''obsolete''.

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It was fixed back in ShB, when it actually earned its placement. Good game balance demands that ease should be penalized with a lower placement. I don't make the rules

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Originally Posted by FireMage

It was fixed back in ShB, when it actually earned its placement. Good game balance demands that ease should be penalized with a lower placement. I don't make the rules

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They make a lot of jobs easier, especially during rework, look at the machinist, the summoner or even some adjustments that have been made to the heal/tanks since Haevensward, if the devs create so-called easy jobs it is precisely to propose roles more accessible to players and it is not on this so-called ease that they balance the game, otherwise it would create a trash balance,
they also compare the contributions between the jobs and not necessarily the skill ceilling.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

It was fixed back in ShB, when it actually earned its placement. Good game balance demands that ease should be penalized with a lower placement. I don't make the rules

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Calling the dumpster fire of Summoner 'fixed' is stretching the meaning of the word to nonsense. It's been broken since Stormblood introduced the god awful demi-summon mechanic, SE just buffed the damage to absurd numbers to keep people from complaining.

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Originally Posted by remiff

They make a lot of jobs easier, especially during rework, look at the machinist, the summoner or even some adjustments that have been made to the heal/tanks since Haevensward, if the devs create so-called easy jobs it is precisely to propose roles more accessible to players and it is not on this so-called ease that they balance the game, otherwise it would create a trash balance,
they also compare the contributions between the jobs and not necessarily the skill ceilling.

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No, trash balance is what we have now. Where RDM which is harder than all the phys ranged, SMN, and RPR to play and optimize is either lower or even with. That is trash balance

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Originally Posted by Flana

Calling the dumpster fire of Summoner 'fixed' is stretching the meaning of the word to nonsense. It's been broken since Stormblood introduced the god awful demi-summon mechanic, SE just buffed the damage to absurd numbers to keep people from complaining.

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It was roughly where it should have been. All they needed was to fix Bahamut and Phoenix. The 6.0 changes killed any interest in SMN for high end players

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Originally Posted by FireMage

It was fixed back in ShB, when it actually earned its placement. Good game balance demands that ease should be penalized with a lower placement. I don't make the rules

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I actually disagree with this entirely. The only thing that good game balance demand should be how much support it brings. Ease of play should have no bearing in DPS. Though I do not disagree SMN should be more complex than it currently is in EW.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I actually disagree with this entirely. The only thing that good game balance demand should be how much support it brings. Ease of play should have no bearing in DPS. Though I do not disagree SMN should be more complex than it currently is in EW.

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You don't need to agree with something for it to be true. Red Mage is worse now than it was in SB, it's barely even a prog Job now

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Originally Posted by FireMage

You don't need to agree with something for it to be true. Red Mage is worse now than it was in SB, it's barely even a prog Job now

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What's true is that the only thing that should matter in what a job's maximum DPS capability is is how much support it brings. You don't make the rules, you said it your self. Your "truth" is wrong.

Yes, RDM sucks right now and needs massive DPS buffs. It should be above BRD and DNC, but below the rest which sadly is not the case currently, as they are below even DNC.

If you don't like it, leave feedback on why you need to lose some support for more DPS or play a different job. If the truth bothers you in any way, you are the one who needs to change. :^)

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Originally Posted by Mithron

What's true is that the only thing that should matter in what a job's maximum DPS capability is is how much support it brings. You don't make the rules, you said it your self. Your "truth" is wrong.

Yes, RDM sucks right now and needs massive DPS buffs. It should be above BRD and DNC, but below the rest which sadly is not the case currently, as they are below even DNC.

If you don't like it, leave feedback on why you need to lose some support for more DPS or play a different job. If the truth bothers you in any way, you are the one who needs to change. :^)

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We should lose verraise :^) It's worthless flavor and not worth dragging the job down as hard as it is.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

What's true is that the only thing that should matter in what a job's maximum DPS capability is is how much support it brings. You don't make the rules, you said it your self. Your "truth" is wrong.

Yes, RDM sucks right now and needs massive DPS buffs. It should be above BRD and DNC, but below the rest which sadly is not the case currently, as they are below even DNC.

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RDM offers no real support besides Barrier. So not really an excuse. And no, there is no such thing as my truth, just THE truth which I'm telling you. Here's more facts for you, SAM/BLM > MNK/DRG/NIN > RPR/RDM > BRD/DNC > MCH/SMN is what proper balance would look like

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Originally Posted by FireMage

RDM offers no real support besides Barrier. So not really an excuse. And no, there is no such thing as my truth, just THE truth which I'm telling you. Here's more facts for you, SAM/BLM > MNK/DRG/NIN > RPR/RDM > BRD/DNC > MCH/SMN is what proper balance would look like

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RDM also offers Vercure, Verraise and Embolden. Sure, Vercure and Verraise aren't necessarily "usable" without DPS loss, but that's the point and flavor of the job. You're meant to damage and have some healing, with backup raises. I don't think they should lose that much damage for Verraise, and I think Embolden should be buffed for them being the 3rd worst DPS, but they should remain at third worst DPS. Sadly, they are currently the worst DPS in this patch for almost every fight, but that's not what they should currently be.

In terms of what each job brings for support, this is the true, correct order of what should be top DPS to least:

BLM > SAM > MCH > RPR > MNK > SMN > DRG > NIN > RDM > BRD > DNC > DRK > GNB > WAR > PLD > SGE > WHM > SCH > AST

The cool thing about the truth is that it's true regardless of what YOU believe. You're just believing in a fantasy, not the truth. This list however, is objective and factual truth with no counter arguments, not even for MCH who offer no support and must have the DPS to reflect that regardless of their mobility or uptime.

The arguments you want to make are not what that list should be like CURRENTLY, but how the jobs should have support added/removed to then change their position. You want RDM to have less support in favor of more DPS. I think they should have slightly more support than they have now while also having more DPS. I think they should keep Verraise but never go above any other DPS than BRD or MCH, while perhaps getting even more support. RDM should be one of the most heavy support mage jobs, and should be seen as the "BRD/DNC" of the mage role. I don't think their Verraise should tax their DPS as much as having additional and better support options should.

If we're talking rDPS, which we should be for damage rankings, Embolden is already counted into RDM's ranking.

I just wanted to discuss RDM need for some attention

Why is this person happening to my thread?

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And no, there is no such thing as my truth, just THE truth which I'm telling you.

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.. oh God. there is TWO of them

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Originally Posted by Mithron

this is the true, correct order of what should be top DPS to least:
...
The cool thing about the truth is that it's true regardless of what YOU believe. You're just believing in a fantasy, not the truth. This list however, is objective and factual truth with no counter arguments

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

I just wanted to discuss RDM need for some attention

Why is this person happening to my thread?


.. oh God. there is TWO of them

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Job balance always brings out people's passion, both for the love of the game and love of their jog. Since balance is a topic that affects everyone even if they're not buffed, its natural for even people not maining or playing a job to have opinions. Red Mage in particular gets a lot of for many reasons, from people who want a dps to be a dps to people who want to play a healer without playing a healer.

Sure you'll have some bad faith actors but I choose to believe none are here...yet.

On phone so can't correct but I meant "job" not "jog."

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Originally Posted by Mithron

RDM also offers Vercure, Verraise and Embolden. Sure, Vercure and Verraise aren't necessarily "usable" without DPS loss, but that's the point and flavor of the job. You\\'re meant to damage and have some healing, with backup raises. I don't think they should lose that much damage for Verraise, and I think Embolden should be buffed for them being the 3rd worst DPS, but they should remain at third worst DPS. Sadly, they are currently the worst DPS in this patch for almost every fight, but that's not what they should currently be.

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So much of this is a swing and a miss. Vercure and Verraise are not actual taxes, neither of them are used in an optimal setting besides Vercure during downtime to prep Doublecast. You do not tax things on a "What if" basis. Oh and Embolden is part of their damage. You are aware that rDPS contributions are the DPS of who is contributing said buff, yes? They aren't proper utility. The only thing RDM has that is proper utility is Barrier

Your SUBJECTIVE ranking (because it's not true) ignores difficulty and proper taxes. BLM is the most difficult Job in the game to optimize, and requires planning out the entire fight to perform well, positioning and movement and what to save and what to spend, it's all things that elevate a class towards the high end in proper balance, and it only has two taxes, the ability to not need to be on the boss and a relatively easy on paper rotation. SAM gets its position only if Kaiten came back, otherwise it gets shoved with all the non RPR melee in the 2nd grouping

Melee have the hardest rotations with the exception of RPR, and also must be on the boss, and offer no actual utility (again exception of RPR) hence why they belong basically clustered together. RPR get shoved down the rest of the melee due to its ease and utility, and being neck and neck (again if actual balance was a thing) with RDM

RDM has only Barrier for utility, has the ability to be off the boss most of the time, however those taxes start being countered with the worst movement of the casters and RNG ridiculousness like what BRD and DNC have to put up with, requiring in the moment decision making

As for the official phys ranged and their honorary member SMN, well easiest rotations and ease of movement/uptime. BRD/DNC get to be higher due to being a bit harder and having more place for optimization. It doesn't matter that MCH is selfish, it has a ridiculously easy rotation

That's proper balance, and I was able to educate you as to why. You're welcome. Now that's not to say that gaps should be massive either. If BLM were a 100, then the next grouping (most melee) should be a 96, then (RDM/RPR) 92, (BRD/DNC) 88, and lastly (SMN/MCH) an 85

As of now proper balance is not being implemented, and RDM despite being gameplay wise functional is not performing as it should. These are facts

RDM's Embolden gives DPS to other players, therefore it's support and RDM must do lower DPS than other jobs because of it for balance. There is nothing you can say/think/believe/do to change this fact.

Job difficulty should never matter in terms of DPS and game balance. All that should matter in DPS and game balance is how much support and DPS buffing the job adds to others. If MCH offers no DPS buffing and minimal support but still does less damage than a another who offers amazing DPS buffing, why would you ever pick MCH over another? I do want more difficulty and complexity in some jobs' rotations, but that should never, ever, ever be a factor in game balance and how much damage a job can do. The moment it does is the moment jobs become ostracized and unplayable because why play the EZ mode SAM selfish DPS when you can play RDM who offers both Embolden and higher DPS despite being more difficult to play? That's not game balance. That's wrong.

You do tax things on a "what if" basis, by the way. 100%, for sure, with certainty you do. The amount of wipes you can save with Verraise in standard pug PF groups is most definitely worth lowering RDM's DPS for, and is RDM's defining feature.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

RDM's Embolden gives DPS to other players, therefore it's support and RDM must do lower DPS than other jobs because of it for balance. There is nothing you can say/think/believe/do to change this fact.

Job difficulty should never matter in terms of DPS and game balance. All that should matter in DPS and game balance is how much support and DPS buffing the job adds to others. If MCH offers no DPS buffing and minimal support but still does less damage than a another who offers amazing DPS buffing, why would you ever pick MCH over another? I do want more difficulty and complexity in some jobs' rotations, but that should never, ever, ever be a factor in game balance and how much damage a job can do. The moment it does is the moment jobs become ostracized and unplayable because why play the EZ mode SAM selfish DPS when you can play RDM who offers both Embolden and higher DPS despite being more difficult to play? That's not game balance. That's wrong.

You do tax things on a "what if" basis, by the way. 100%, for sure, with certainty you do. The amount of wipes you can save with Verraise in standard pug PF groups is most definitely worth lowering RDM's DPS for, and is RDM's defining feature.

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Imagine trying to talk about rDPS with this. :rolleyes:

You can see SMN players from a mile away.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

RDM's Embolden gives DPS to other players, therefore it's support and RDM must do lower DPS than other jobs because of it for balance. There is nothing you can say/think/believe/do to change this fact.

Job difficulty should never matter in terms of DPS and game balance. All that should matter in DPS and game balance is how much support and DPS buffing the job adds to others. If MCH offers no DPS buffing and minimal support but still does less damage than a another who offers amazing DPS buffing, why would you ever pick MCH over another? I do want more difficulty and complexity in some jobs' rotations, but that should never, ever, ever be a factor in game balance and how much damage a job can do. The moment it does is the moment jobs become ostracized and unplayable because why play the EZ mode SAM selfish DPS when you can play RDM who offers both Embolden and higher DPS despite being more difficult to play? That's not game balance. That's wrong.

You do tax things on a "what if" basis, by the way. 100%, for sure, with certainty you do. The amount of wipes you can save with Verraise in standard pug PF groups is most definitely worth lowering RDM's DPS for, and is RDM's defining feature.

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Embolden is still RDMs damage. It seems you need to educate yourself oh how rDPS works

Difficulty should be a factor. And no it wouldn't lead to ostracization, as things would still be close from the top to the lowest, closer than they are now. And no, what ifs shouldn't contribute; why should a RDM be punished for a deathless run? What's actually wrong is advocating the easiest DPS in the game do more damage than RDM in such instances. Yikes

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Imagine trying to talk about rDPS with this. :rolleyes:

You can see SMN players from a mile away.

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Not just that but Savageless

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Imagine trying to talk about rDPS with this. :rolleyes:

You can see SMN players from a mile away.

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SMN is actually the one job I have the least experience with. I'd like to see SMN be more mid-line in terms of DPS and utility, which they kinda' currently are. I love RDM and want to see it have higher numbers that it does currently, but remain the 3rd lowest DPS as that is its rightful place. I say this as someone who does love RDM, but it's certainly not my main.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Embolden is still RDMs damage. It seems you need to educate yourself oh how rDPS works

Difficulty should be a factor. And no it wouldn't lead to ostracization, as things would still be close from the top to the lowest, closer than they are now. And no, what ifs shouldn't contribute; why should a RDM be punished for a deathless run? What's actually wrong is advocating the easiest DPS in the game do more damage than RDM in such instances. Yikes

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Embolden buffs RDM's damage, but so does a NIN's mug and DNC's Standard and Technical Finish. They just happen to buff everyone else's damage, too. Therefore, they need to do less damage than other jobs personally to compensate. BLM and SAM should do higher personal damage given they do not buff others' damage. This is game balance, and the only thing that should determine it. Don't know why you struggle to accept these basic facts.

I work full time and was busy this weekend so I haven't started this tier's savage yet. Rest assured, I always do at least the first fight of every savage tier and have since I joined the game in 3.4. Regardless, ad hominem means you've lost the debate. :^)

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Embolden buffs RDM's damage, but so does a NIN's mug and DNC's Standard and Technical Finish. They just happen to buff everyone else's damage, too. Therefore, they need to do less damage than other jobs personally to compensate. BLM and SAM should do higher personal damage given they do not buff others' damage. This is game balance, and the only thing that should determine it. Don't know why you struggle to accept these basic facts.

I work full time and was busy this weekend so I haven't started this tier's savage yet. Rest assured, I always do at least the first fight of every savage tier and have since I joined the game in 3.4. Regardless, ad hominem means you've lost the debate. :^)

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You're still not getting that rDPS is the metric to go by. Also I've informed you what game balance would be, not my fault if you chose to ignore it. And there was no ad hominem, I didn't insult you, just made a base observation based on all the information avaliable. I don't ask a gas station clerk about brain surgery after all

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Originally Posted by Mithron

...Regardless, ad hominem means you've lost the debate. :^)

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There can be no debate since your current level of knowledge fundamentally prevents you from presenting any kind of worthwhile argument.

I will spell it out once again. r. D. P. S. There is no point to this discussion until you learn the meaning behind the acronym.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

SMN is actually the one job I have the least experience with. I'd like to see SMN be more mid-line,... but(rdm) remain the 3rd lowest DPS as that is its rightful place

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In ShB Summoner was good because to get its blm lvl dmg out of it, however it was incredibly difficult to reach those numbers. Rdm back then though had a pretty set rotation that you couldn't vary from. ShB rdm was in a good place until the 5.5 stat creep hit hard and percentages went wild, and still provided better damaged than all the phys range, and was easier than smn so you got more consistency out of it.

At the end of 6.1 all jobs in terms of rDps(ex a few like dnc) were pretty much even with everyone else under the right situations, played by the right people. drg,mnk, buffs usefulness are 100% dependent on your teammate. rdm and smn both have a strong buff, smn is just set over a longer period of time so jobs with 15 second burst windows don't benefit as much as other jobs. Lowering smn rDPS. A really good dnc can almost match rdm base DPSand be 1K+ ahead when rDPS comes. Also rdm already has a tax, in the form of it being a 100% proc based job. On near procless runs, where I even preformed better in the fight. I can watch my dps in p7s just keep falling Dramatically by almost 400 points by the end, that's literally the difference in enrage of clear, all locked behind rng the player can do nothing about. It also effects your rotation at various point in the fight and it can even effect your ability to keep uptime going.
RDM issues is its burst skill aren't even that super strong compared to others so while a mnk can avg 85k their big burst, rdm resolution and scorch hover around 25k each non crit/dir so that 50k for its big burst, and only about 70k when crited, not avged. Basically because rdm's damage is spread so evenly across its skills it's strongest stat is technically det and crit(fast and strong). Considering our 3 hit sword combo is incredibly low dmg and potency that do not belong in something called burst. Any crit on those is wasted. Then the problem with crit build also fails rdm because rdm dmg is spread so evenly, its crits on the 2 burst it has aren't even big enough to compensate. This problem was most noticeable at the end of ShB, and again now.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

"Embolden buffs RDM's damage,...Therefore, they need to do less damage than other jobs personally to compensate... This is game balance, and the only thing that should determine it..

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EVERY DPS JOB IN THIS GAME except for BLM, MCH, and SAM, have party buff, that buff everyone's damage. so to say rdm numbers should be dramatically lower than ninja, while nin has a stronger buff and reaper has the same buff, and they both do 1k+ higher base dps than rdm, SE even said they want everyone doing the same dmg as reaper, and rdm was already way behind that at 6.0 launch and never got a fix, smn has had lots of fixed and was ahead of them for a bit but looks like this round but them back behind. Raise should never factor into the question as its already heavily taxed on rdm, and also smn has raise aswell. So you can't say raise has to be taxed, as while ignoring this huge blatent issue/working with dnc and say dnc is fine. and say rdm has raise, and ignore smn having it, also ignoring that every raise a rdm cast, is a loss of at least 6 guage prog and damage, and drops your rdm damage consistently.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

You will not be missed.

Same as Verraise...

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Love you too.

No it has to stay. Theres a ton of stuff that should really already go but not that, just for the sake of balance... have fun doing alliance raids with not rdm or smn being able to ress, having endless fullwipes... If anything we need more support jobs and not "MOAR DPS!!!!!!!!"


Everyone so hellbend on numbers... its just silly...

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

No it has to stay. Theres a ton of stuff that should really already go but not that, just for the sake of balance... have fun doing alliance raids with not rdm or smn being able to ress, having endless fullwipes...

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Kicking the weak links is not only another solution but the better one in that circumstance

Both RDM and SMN need buffs. I do not main RDM, but if RDM gets buff while SMN doesnt it will go to like the last savage raid tier. BLM is doing good. they need to stay 2nd highest dps. However, the rest need some help.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Love you too.

No it has to stay. Theres a ton of stuff that should really already go but not that, just for the sake of balance... have fun doing alliance raids with not rdm or smn being able to ress, having endless fullwipes... If anything we need more support jobs and not "MOAR DPS!!!!!!!!"


Everyone so hellbend on numbers... its just silly...

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Alliance Raids existed and were fun for 4 years before the advent of Verraise, they'd be fun after it disappeared too. Not an argument. Give spam raise utility to a healer, not a dps.

Welp, it was nice for the short time RDM got to have marginally okay DPS. Back to Rez Mage they go, then.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Alliance Raids existed and were fun for 4 years before the advent of Verraise, they'd be fun after it disappeared too. Not an argument. Give spam raise utility to a healer, not a dps.

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I heavily disagree with alliance raids being fun, but that's more to do with the raids and less to do with Verraise.

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Originally Posted by Erinellza

Also, mobility is not an issue at all.

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*laughs in Hesperos II*

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Originally Posted by FireMage

*laughs in Hesperos II*

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*guffaws in Adigtis*

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

*guffaws in Adigtis*

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That's more of a *cries in Agdistis*

Anyways the devs need to fix the actual jobs balances,
the gap between caster/melee is huge,
RDM need obviously a big dmg buff .
MCH a big one too,
SMN need a slight one .

they also need to slightly lower the dps of ninja, monk, drg.
and tank just have an excessively high dps, they need to lower some potency.

They have started a strange policy of buffing rather than nerfing, and I think that's clearly not a good thing, nerfing is also necessary when devs balancing a game.

...How in the blue hell do you figure tanks have excessively high DPS when the gap between them and every DPS job is so wide? They used to have way more damage comparative to the DPS jobs than they do now.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

...How in the blue hell do you figure tanks have excessively high DPS when the gap between them and every DPS job is so wide? They used to have way more damage comparative to the DPS jobs than they do now.

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I don't know if you've seen the current tank damage is around 6500-8000 DPS, tanks have never had such a huge damage ratio compared to DPS job.

As much as I find that some adjustments were necessary, some were too much,
Moreover, even among the tank there is a fairly significant difference in DPS between them,
which creates even more problems..''.

some people are currently talking about it, the tank, and some other jobs have crazy bad balancing, and the difference in damage between certain raid compositions is mind-blowing.

the devs may not have to nerf them, but I point out that sometimes certain nerfs like buffs are necessary to keep a certain balance, and rather than slightly nerf 1 or 2 jobs, they preferred to do stupid huge buffs on a whole 'roles'' , like they did with melee in 6.1, and before,
this kind of adjustment is not necessarily a good choice, the proof look at the actual game balance.