Shield/Pure Healer Split Feedback

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Originally Posted by Mortex

The point is a spreadlo with a decent number of situations can save you around 1 or 2 gcd heals in multi hit situations when used in combination with % mitigation (1-2 gcd for both healer) . For example dsr p7 gigaflare or akh morn tower. The gain outweighs a decent number of times the cost.

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You can also use it to save mitigation on orbs in P4 which generally leads to you not needing to have to GCD healing on the subsequent tower phase where you are generally short on mitigation because the general strat is to kitchen sink the orbs mitigation

It’s quite often a benefit even if you are taking it from the perspective of “every adlo is a loss” but that also comes down to whether you consider dissipation energy drain as a gain to use or a loss to not use

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Recently I had to unleash some praying mantis kung-fu when I mentioned that WHM isn't in a bad place among the other healers despite their lack of mitigation ability. It's almost like players want this job to be in a bad place, and in perpetual misery. Mitigation has been the chief go-to argument in this regard.

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Oh, don't mistake me. WHM is FUNCTIONAL as a healer in FFXIV right now.

But, it's the weakest in terms of high end fights (when it matters; anyone can clear low end fights, often without a healer), and that's why it's fallen out in terms of the meta, speedkill runs, and so on. As others have pointed out, mitigation matters. Extreme fights you can save a DPS from death with a critlo (or sometimes just a regular Adlo) if they got clipped by one boss ability (so have a vuln stack) and are about to eat a second. Your WHM Bene can get them to 100% health, but that next attack dealing 105% of their healthbar means they still die. On the other hand, a Sacred Soil lowering that damage by 10% (so down to around 95%) or an Adlo giving them 20% of their health as overshield (so they survive the hit with 15% health remaining) DO prevent their death.

This is why mitigation and shielding are better.

The only case that pure healing has an edge is in Doom heal checks, like SoS's opening where everyone's HP drops to 1 and you have to fullheal everyone before the timer runs out or they KO. But when we look at those cases, literally every healer is capable of getting that job done (with their heal partner). SGE/SGE or SCH/SCH have enough healing to meet the check if they have the gear level for it. Pre-Seraph, drop Soil, pop Illumination, Excog on each tank (for SCH/SCH), Emergency Tactics Succor, Consolation, Indom. Bam, you've healed everyone, no WHM or even AST needed. You probably don't even need ALL OF THAT healing. Honestly, an Illumination 2x Indoms and 2x Emergency Succor probably will already do the job without needing the rest.

Likewise, multi-hit attacks like ZodEx's lasers can be shielded (so barriers help) and mitigated (so damage reduction mitigation helps).

So there's no case where you NEED pure healing, and any case that pure healing is useful, barrier healing is just as effective. So your equality is wrong:

It's not pure = barrier.

It's pure = barrier in the case barriers don't work AND pure < barrier when barriers DO work.

There's no case where pure > barrier.

Add to this that WHM has the fewest barriers, fewest mitigations, AND doesn't have a party damage buff like SCH and AST do, and you end up with it being the weakest of all worlds.

It's still USABLE, but it's also still the weakest.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Spreadlo just shows your inability to accept fact. It is NEVER free.

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Okay, I'm a BIT confused.

On the one hand, you're saying in this post that as long as a party with 1 WHM can clear content, it's cool. But then you say this. In what case is a SCH foregoing one Broil's worth of damage to cast an Adlo going to lead to failing an Enrage? In regular content (all the stuff you say matters), there's no time that's the case. Do any non-Extreme/Savage in the game on a SCH and cast ZERO BROILS and you'll still clear the content. There may be one or two very rare exceptions (the twin sword sisters at the end of Ghimlit Dark have a DPS check, I think), but these are extremely rare cases and you may not even need the healer to attack to clear them.

So what does it matter that it is "NEVER free" by costing a single damage GCD when you're talking about normal content and not Extreme/Savage/Ultimate?

The only time losing out on 1 Broil's worth of damage WOULD matter is Extreme/Savage/Ultimate, in which case Spreadlo saving DPS from dying is more important since a dead DPS or Raised DPS is going to cost the party FAR more damage than your one Broil will.

This is the weirdest "academic" argument I've ever heard, as you're arguing out both sides. On the one hand, you act like you're talking about normal content so mitigation doesn't matter, but then you keep pinging this DPS loss argument, which ONLY matters in high end content where MITIGATION ALSO matters.

The premise of the argument is nonsensical. You need to pick one or the other.

If we're talking Normal content:

Yes, mitigation rarely (or never) matters. Even saving a DPS from death with a clutch Adlo is going to be completely irrelevant in...Labyrinth of the Ancients. BUT, by that same token, you missing out on one Broil isn't going to cause your party to wipe to Xande, either.

If we're talking Extreme/Savage/Ultimate content:

NOW the tradeoff of damage GCD for mitigation GCD matters...but if that mitigation GCD saves a DPS from dying, it's a net gain. Moreover, it's EXTREMELY rare you're going to miss a damage check due to the loss of a single Broil unless your party is barely able to clear the fight anyway.

So in the latter case, the damage cost matters, but the mitigation matters more. In the former case, neither matter, so why are you even worried about losing 1 Broil's worth of Damage while running Sasthasha normal?

Your argument just seems nonsensical since the only time it DOES matter is when it DOESN'T matter. Which makes no sense. In logic, "A" and "Not A" cannot be true at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

I wouldn't call it worthless, but it's not the most overpowered ability when it's suboptimal to use in all content bar ultimate. In fact the only real time you can use it in current savage is the couple of GCDs you get for free before the adds phase on P3S. Gemina is correct in that it's not free, and outside of ultimate it's a waste when abilities like Expedient and Consolation mitigate any raidwide efficiently.

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I think a lot of people don't understand what optimal and suboptimal REALLY mean.

You're trading 1 Broil for a Spreadlo.

That's it.

295 potency of damage. Somewhere in the ballpark of, what, 10,000 damage? Which is, what, around 0.01% of a boss' health bar?

That's RIDICULOUSLY insignificant. No fight in the game is going to be won or lost by that amount of damage outside of that clutch Ultimate where a Carby got the final hit in. This idea that using ANY GCD for a non-damage spell is going to cost the fight seriously needs to die in a fire. Especially when we start factoring in alternatives - any time a DPS dies, it is a bigger DPS loss than a lost Broil if using an Adlo instead of a Broil could have saved the DPS's life. There is no exception to that rule.

This slavish devotion to "every GCD must be an attack spell" is ridiculous bordering on mental illness.

Yes, it's a "DPS loss", but a loss THAT WILL NOT BE RELEVANT in almost any content, and quite possibly IN ANY content. If the rest of your team is competent, you should not be bumping into an Enrage over ONE lost Broil. Ever. If you are, then it's not the SCH that's the problem, it's the rest of the party being WAY MORE SUBOPTIMAL than one lost Broil.

Now, are there generally better tools? Yes. If the party isn't messing up mechanics, we have so many oGCDs now we can deal with almost anything. But this idea that casting a Succor or Adlo is going to be "suboptimal" and cause fight failures is ridiculous and borderline insane. Especially when a Deploy Critlo can prevent needing to use some other oGCDs, allowing the SCH to save them for later and them (or their co-healer) to not have to cast GCD heals (2 or more) at a different point in the fight.

So it's not always even a DPS loss on the fight as a whole since optimal is based on the WHOLE PARTY not a single character. If a Deploy Critlo now means a WHM won't have to cast 2x Cure 3s later, that's a net DPS gain for the party.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

"WHM has zero unique capabilities, worse free healing, and its personal damage is never enough to make up for this, and it ends up falling into last place as far as high end desirability on a constant basis because of this" != "WHM is incapable of clearing content".

I swear it's like Scholar mains *want* their job to be worst in role or something, because they constantly dismiss actual balancing problems with WHM in favor of complaining that the strongest shield in the game "feeeels weak" because it costs a GCD, despite nearly every single raid tier's data showing SCH consistently as one of the most powerful healers in the game. Scholar isn't weak, it's just boring. WHM is boring AND weak.

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Given our past interactions, I never thought I'd say this but...

I agree with Semirhage.

Mostly (I don't find SCH boring...but then I don't find WHM boring, either, just I find SCH more enjoyable, even if I hate Dissipation to the point I don't even have it on my bar - fite me!! :p)

I know...I'm scared too. XD

I guess my thing is I'm a semi-omni healer (WHM, SCH, and SGE - AST is the only one I don't touch other than bumping up to level cap each expansion when I get around to it), so I compare and contrast them a lot. On WHM, I consistently feel like I'm missing "something". Like doing the Dead Ends final boss (the one "whose steps were light and quick"), it does periodic raidwides. While I don't NEED to mitigate them, I always have a mitigation up often enough on all healers...except WHM. I use Temperance on the first, then when the second comes around...

...

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Nothing. Because WHM doesn't have a second thing. Asylum (despite the name) doesn't offer protection, and Temperance's CD is 2 minutes. WHM has no Succor equivalent to soften the blow.

While the party CAN take the damage, it feels weird not having a mitigation tool TO use when I do on SCH and SGE. I feel like even AST is better off because it has 2 party mitigation tools and a party shield so that's functionally 3x the mitigation tools/frequency of what WHM has.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Oh, don't mistake me. WHM is FUNCTIONAL as a healer in FFXIV right now.

But, it's the weakest in terms of high end fights (when it matters; anyone can clear low end fights, often without a healer), and that's why it's fallen out in terms of the meta, speedkill runs, and so on. As others have pointed out, mitigation matters. Extreme fights you can save a DPS from death with a critlo (or sometimes just a regular Adlo) if they got clipped by one boss ability (so have a vuln stack) and are about to eat a second. Your WHM Bene can get them to 100% health, but that next attack dealing 105% of their healthbar means they still die. On the other hand, a Sacred Soil lowering that damage by 10% (so down to around 95%) or an Adlo giving them 20% of their health as overshield (so they survive the hit with 15% health remaining) DO prevent their death.

This is why mitigation and shielding are better.

The only case that pure healing has an edge is in Doom heal checks, like SoS's opening where everyone's HP drops to 1 and you have to fullheal everyone before the timer runs out or they KO. But when we look at those cases, literally every healer is capable of getting that job done (with their heal partner). SGE/SGE or SCH/SCH have enough healing to meet the check if they have the gear level for it. Pre-Seraph, drop Soil, pop Illumination, Excog on each tank (for SCH/SCH), Emergency Tactics Succor, Consolation, Indom. Bam, you've healed everyone, no WHM or even AST needed. You probably don't even need ALL OF THAT healing. Honestly, an Illumination 2x Indoms and 2x Emergency Succor probably will already do the job without needing the rest.

Likewise, multi-hit attacks like ZodEx's lasers can be shielded (so barriers help) and mitigated (so damage reduction mitigation helps).

So there's no case where you NEED pure healing, and any case that pure healing is useful, barrier healing is just as effective. So your equality is wrong:

It's not pure = barrier.

It's pure = barrier in the case barriers don't work AND pure < barrier when barriers DO work.

There's no case where pure > barrier.

Add to this that WHM has the fewest barriers, fewest mitigations, AND doesn't have a party damage buff like SCH and AST do, and you end up with it being the weakest of all worlds..

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Also in a long run a big ass shield worth 50% of the party’s hp with good mitigation is worth 2 gcd from both healer you normally would have to heal. God king phase in dsr pushes the gcd and ogcd use if you go for the standard 2-3-3 tower (like no one in his right mind now plays 2-3-3 and rather goes 1-1-6 with kitchen sink and immunity on the tanks) and in combination with the gigaflare proximity bombs the entire phase is a mitigation fest and a big ass shield that blocks 1-2 of these hits is a godsend

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Originally Posted by Renathras

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Given our past interactions, I never thought I'd say this but...

I agree with Semirhage.

Mostly (I don't find SCH boring...but then I don't find WHM boring, either, just I find SCH more enjoyable, even if I hate Dissipation to the point I don't even have it on my bar - fite me!! :p)

I know...I'm scared too. XD

I guess my thing is I'm a semi-omni healer (WHM, SCH, and SGE - AST is the only one I don't touch other than bumping up to level cap each expansion when I get around to it), so I compare and contrast them a lot. On WHM, I consistently feel like I'm missing "something". Like doing the Dead Ends final boss (the one "whose steps were light and quick"), it does periodic raidwides. While I don't NEED to mitigate them, I always have a mitigation up often enough on all healers...except WHM. I use Temperance on the first, then when the second comes around...

...

...

Nothing. Because WHM doesn't have a second thing. Asylum (despite the name) doesn't offer protection, and Temperance's CD is 2 minutes. WHM has no Succor equivalent to soften the blow.

While the party CAN take the damage, it feels weird not having a mitigation tool TO use when I do on SCH and SGE. I feel like even AST is better off because it has 2 party mitigation tools and a party shield so that's functionally 3x the mitigation tools/frequency of what WHM has.

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This is a really good explanation, you play all healers semi consistently and you just notice holes in WHM, lack of mitigation you are just programmed to hit on the other healers, lack of consistent use clutch single target heals, lack of meaningful sustain outside of HP ping pong, lack of weave slots

WHM just feels like it’s playing a different game and it doesn’t play well in 14

For anyone arguing WHM's deficiencies aren't a problem. I'll point to the singular healer comp that, while still viable, is severely limited: WHM and AST.

Now could it be Astro's kit contributing to the problem? To some extent, yes. Earthly Star, for example, trips over Assize as the two abilities often are up at comparable times and rarely is 1,120 healing potency ever needed in the spam of 20 seconds. Otherwise, Astro's healing kit cooperates fairly well with both Sage and Scholar. Of course, what actually keeps the job alive is raid buffs. Now on the flip side, White Mage and Scholar are the only two healing who force one another to GCD heal at least once because their kits can't synergize. They simply run out of oGCDs. I believe Scholar can mitigate this by dropping some Energy Drains but either way, it's a DPS loss. Sage works well but effectively carrying White Mage's deficiencies due to having so much free healing resources.

And it's that last point that causes problem. Astro simply can't carry White Mage. Even with the bevy of tools at its disposal, it still lacks mitigation options unique to shield healers. Okay, great! That's the whole point of having both a "Pure" and "Shield" healer.

Except Sage and Scholar synergize beautifully. In fact, if it weren't for Sage lacking a raid buff, this would be the meta comp without question. At least out of early prog. Mitigating damage as a whole is simply widely superior compared to healing it because all healers need to be capable of healing. Thus, you can't have either White Mage or Astro truly be a powerhouse in this category. And because they simply refuse to make outgoing damage demand shields, mitigation and raw healing, the former two dominate—in particular mitigation—once ilvl creep starts to trivialize everything. The long and short of it is White Mage needs to be carried for it to be both effective and efficient. Can it clear content? Absolutely. Can it do so without GCD healing? Yep. But every other healer can simply do it significantly better.

White Mage's "identity" is leeching off its co-healers better designed healing kits. Which wouldn't inherently be bad... if it had the damage potential to justify that. It doesn't.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

For anyone arguing WHM's deficiencies aren't a problem. I'll point to the singular healer comp that, while still viable, is severely limited: WHM and AST.

Now could it be Astro's kit contributing to the problem? To some extent, yes. Earthly Star, for example, trips over Assize as the two abilities often are up at comparable times and rarely is 1,120 healing potency ever needed in the spam of 20 seconds. Otherwise, Astro's healing kit cooperates fairly well with both Sage and Scholar. Of course, what actually keeps the job alive is raid buffs. Now on the flip side, White Mage and Scholar are the only two healing who force one another to GCD heal at least once because their kits can't synergize. They simply run out of oGCDs. I believe Scholar can mitigate this by dropping some Energy Drains but either way, it's a DPS loss. Sage works well but effectively carrying White Mage's deficiencies due to having so much free healing resources.

And it's that last point that causes problem. Astro simply can't carry White Mage. Even with the bevy of tools at its disposal, it still lacks mitigation options unique to shield healers. Okay, great! That's the whole point of having both a "Pure" and "Shield" healer.

Except Sage and Scholar synergize beautifully. In fact, if it weren't for Sage lacking a raid buff, this would be the meta comp without question. At least out of early prog. Mitigating damage as a whole is simply widely superior compared to healing it because all healers need to be capable of healing. Thus, you can't have either White Mage or Astro truly be a powerhouse in this category. And because they simply refuse to make outgoing damage demand shields, mitigation and raw healing, the former two dominate—in particular mitigation—once ilvl creep starts to trivialize everything. The long and short of it is White Mage needs to be carried for it to be both effective and efficient. Can it clear content? Absolutely. Can it do so without GCD healing? Yep. But every other healer can simply do it significantly better.

White Mage's "identity" is leeching off its co-healers better designed healing kits. Which wouldn't inherently be bad... if it had the damage potential to justify that. It doesn't.

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I think this just seeps into the idea of regen healers are built for a game that isn’t 14, shield healers feel like they are designed for 14, regen healers feel like they are designed for MOP

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Originally Posted by Renathras

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So it's not always even a DPS loss on the fight as a whole since optimal is based on the WHOLE PARTY not a single character. If a Deploy Critlo now means a WHM won't have to cast 2x Cure 3s later, that's a net DPS gain for the party.

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Ironically I think it's actually you who doesn't understand what optimal and suboptimal means. It's not the people who shaped the game into what it is right now, the reason people don't want to spend GCDs on healing and why it is optimal is because there's no need to. In fact outside of ultimate, there would be no reason to cast any healing GCDs. You're never in this scenario you mentioned at the end if everyone was playing optimally. Using a GCD heal to rectify a mistake will never be seen as optimal play.

Granted not everyone does play optimally, in fact most people don't, but theorycrafting is a lot different to actual gameplay. And this applies to many scenarios. AST, for example, is only better than WHM in the most optimal of groups. If you go down from top percentiles, you'll notice WHM takes over in damage. In fact for some duties like DSR, WHM is currently at the top. Nobody talks about that though because theorycrafting is based around the jobs maximum potential, and in that scenario AST wins. You can't just pick and choose when you want to look at the top end of play and when not.

I do agree though that it would be a nicer system for healers if we did have to use GCD heals more. Personally I'd be a fan of reverting to the ARR days where you have 1 emergency heal and the rest GCDs. But this is a conversation that has been had many times and I don't think it's getting anyone anywhere.

Honestly, I think it's dumb and arbitrary. Regen healers have shields, shield healers have regens. It's pointless. I don't think anything of value was gained that way.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Honestly, I think it's dumb and arbitrary. Regen healers have shields, shield healers have regens. It's pointless. I don't think anything of value was gained that way.

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Well AST has shields

Basically it just artificially restricted half the healers from one half of a healers kit while giving the other half everything they wanted

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Originally Posted by Renathras

WHM has no Succor equivalent to soften the blow.

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Out of your whole post I take issue with this.

WHM does have a succor equivalent, it's called Medica II, and that medica 2 heals for far more than succor does (520p vs 1000p).

You have to look at shield healers based on their shields and regen healers based on their regens.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Out of your whole post I take issue with this.

WHM does have a succor equivalent, it's called Medica II, and that medica 2 heals for far more than succor does (520p vs 1000p).

You have to look at shield healers based on their shields and regen healers based on their regens.

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But shields also absorb damage, which can prevent a partymember from being KO'ed.
Medica II can't heal those who are KO'ed. (❁°͈▵°͈)

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Ironically I think it's actually you who doesn't understand what optimal and suboptimal means. It's not the people who shaped the game into what it is right now, the reason people don't want to spend GCDs on healing and why it is optimal is because there's no need to. In fact outside of ultimate, there would be no reason to cast any healing GCDs. You're never in this scenario you mentioned at the end if everyone was playing optimally. Using a GCD heal to rectify a mistake will never be seen as optimal play.

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You're conflating optimal group play with optimal individual play. Optimal group play is never needing to GCD heal in any content after ARR because everyone's on top of their game. Optimal individual play, on the part of a healer, can mean GCD healing to rectify the mistakes of another individual not playing optimally, to prevent the greater DPS loss that would come of letting them die.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Well AST has shields

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Fair. Yet the other two have regens.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

But shields also absorb damage, which can prevent a partymember from being KO'ed.
Medica II can't heal those who are KO'ed. (❁°͈▵°͈)

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Said this a few pages back:

AoE shield is less than 10% of your hp bar at most gear levels, even less than that for a tank. If that is the difference between life and death in your group, they need to learn what reprisal / feint-addle / troubadour / sacred soil (etc) are.

If you're a SCH and you need an aoe shield, you're going to deploy a Critlo or at a base level, an Adlo or just not shield and fey blessing / Indom the damage.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Out of your whole post I take issue with this.

WHM does have a succor equivalent, it's called Medica II, and that medica 2 heals for far more than succor does (520p vs 1000p).

You have to look at shield healers based on their shields and regen healers based on their regens.

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But that just circles back to the points of

A) regens are pretty worthless compared to mitigation (not necessarily shields but mitigation or shields)
B) shield healers have plenty strong regens themselves that don’t require GCD use

Looking at regen healers for their regens is pretty pointless because high end content doesn’t like regens and powerful overheal, it likes mitigation

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Ironically I think it's actually you who doesn't understand what optimal and suboptimal means.

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While I agree partly with some of your points in some ways, I fully DO understand what optimal and suboptimal mean. If you using a GCD heal means TWO (or more) GCDs are freed between you and your cohealer for damage, then that's a net gain. You note that any party member taking avoidable damage is subobtimal, but as a healer, you can't control THAT. All you can control is the recovery from it. And people were giving actual examples from Ultimate where it is, in fact, optimal.

It won't always be optimal, but there are times it will be, so it's hardly "worthless". And in the times it's NOT optimal, it won't matter, since no fight will be decided by one 295 potency cast being missed.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Out of your whole post I take issue with this.

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Note the quote from me you posted there:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

WHM has no Succor equivalent to soften the blow.

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Medica 2 can heal more than Succor (which is arguably more akin to Medica 1), but it can't reduce the amount of a party member's health bar that goes down. Succor can, albeit slightly. WHM's only way to reduce incoming damage taken is Temperance, which is on a 2 min CD.

Keep in mind in the post I was kind of speaking to playing WHM vs the other healers when a 4 man (or any) boss does a raidwide (it's just more noticeable in 4 mans because you don't have that second healer to lean on so you see what your Job's limitations are more clearly), WHM doesn't EVEN HAVE something like Succor. It's Temperance and then nothing for 2 mins until it comes off CD. Yes yes, you don't NEED mitigation (generally) in 4 mans, but the point is I'm used to rolling through them on the other healers (muscle memory can be a good thing), and it's glaringly obvious WHM is missing out there. Louisouix and Y'Shtola (end of ARR) both had a bubble and were CNJ/WHMs.

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Originally Posted by vetch

You're conflating optimal group play with optimal individual play. Optimal group play is never needing to GCD heal in any content after ARR because everyone's on top of their game. Optimal individual play, on the part of a healer, can mean GCD healing to rectify the mistakes of another individual not playing optimally, to prevent the greater DPS loss that would come of letting them die.

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This.

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Originally Posted by vetch

You're conflating optimal group play with optimal individual play. Optimal group play is never needing to GCD heal in any content after ARR because everyone's on top of their game. Optimal individual play, on the part of a healer, can mean GCD healing to rectify the mistakes of another individual not playing optimally, to prevent the greater DPS loss that would come of letting them die.

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You're not wrong in that those are indeed two separate things, but I don't think anyone really theorycrafts based on individual play so it seems like a moot point to me. I can once again go back to my point on WHM and AST. If we're talking optimal individual play, WHM knocks AST out of the park, but we all know that isn't the case because there's an entire 7 other people to consider.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

You're not wrong in that those are indeed two separate things, but I don't think anyone really theorycrafts based on individual play so it seems like a moot point to me. I can once again go back to my point on WHM and AST. If we're talking optimal individual play, WHM knocks AST out of the park, but we all know that isn't the case because there's an entire 7 other people to consider.

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Optimal Individual play vs optimal group play is a very different thing than pDPS vs rDPS

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Optimal Individual play vs optimal group play is a very different thing than pDPS vs rDPS

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But optimal individual play is based entirely on optimal group play. Not a single DPS rotation out there is based solely on the job itself, it's amalgamated with the utilities the party brings. Hence why you have to look at the bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

But optimal individual play is based entirely on optimal group play. Not a single DPS rotation out there is based solely on the job itself, it's amalgamated with the utilities the party brings. Hence why you have to look at the bigger picture.

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Well except for the selfish classes (who except for BLM do often do a bit of messing around to stick more of their higher damage windows into burst)

But still reliance on others to do more damage and align buffs is a very different concept than “the optimal group scenario is for this DPS to not take damage, the optimal individual situation for the healer is to not let that DPS die even if I lose DPS personally” and that sort of situation is completely independent of group coordination for raid DPS

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And in the times it's NOT optimal, it won't matter, since no fight will be decided by one 295 potency cast being missed.

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The question of whether something is necessary or not is and never will be part of discussions of optimal gameplay specifically because optimal gameplay aims to go above and beyond of what is necessary to clear by nature. That won't change unless SE designs a fight which requires optimal gameplay which they understandably won't - that would set every social media on fire, they already came close to it with Midas.
As such, optimal gameplay includes and requires that you will clear but does not care about if it was necessary to clear or not. It is an approach that aims at maximizing personal and group improvement, not leaving it at clearing alone.
So the argument "But it wasn't necessary anyway and if it was, your group has other problems" is completely besides the point.

Optimal gameplay can be seen from a personal and a group point of view and while they overlap most of the time, it's not the same.
Any increase in pDPS will automatically also increase the overall rDPS but it's generally not considered optimizing group play unless the rDPS gain surpasses the pDPS gain. An example of this would be a BLM using Transpose lines outside burst windows. Nobody else but the BLM benefits from this at this time and as such, it's simply personal optimization.
A BLM banking Xenos to dump them during burst windows on the other hand is more part of group optimization because this specifically targets maximizing other people's buffs. Personal vs group optimization isn't split into "selfish gameplay that hurts others" vs "good gameplay that benefits others".

So yes, optimizing gameplay can definitely mean using a GCD heal - if it was necessary to survive and/or saved further dps losses down the line. Every GCD heal that does not fall into this category is not optimal and it doesn't matter if the additional Glareoileficosis would've made a difference or not for getting the clear.
You do understand what optimal gameplay means but you bring something into the discussion that has no place in it: would it make a difference?
Doesn't matter.
A BLM using Transpose lines won't make a difference.
An AST catching burst phases with cards won't make a difference.
A greedy melee getting one more GCD won't make a difference.
Not even all of it combined would. Not even at min ilvl in current savage.

The framework of what is optimal is set by SE and whether we like it or not is another question that doesn't matter in these discussions. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be brought up. Just not when number crunching.
I personally don't like that optimizing healer means doing less instead of more when it means doing more for every other class. But the framework SE gave us is that dps is king and they keep enforcing it by switching from vuln ups to damage downs (which made a GCD heal or two from healers optimal if it meant the whole party could cheese a mechanic), by avoiding as much controlled dps mechanics as possible, by handing out more and more mitigation/ heal tools to non-healers, by keeping incoming damage the same at best and by keeping everything perfectly predictable and scripted.
But it's still optimal.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

So the argument "But it wasn't necessary anyway and if it was, your group has other problems" is completely besides the point.

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No, it's not.

The point I was contesting was talking out both sides, simultaneously talking about NORMAL MODES and WHAT IS OPTIMAL, which makes no sense. Optimization matters in high end encounters. It's irrelevant otherwise. You can't hand-wave away the actual discussion. That makes no sense.

Optimization can include things like getting a melee or BLM more uptime, or shielding the party to get around a mitigation or healing check to use LB on damage instead, or, as I pointed out, saving GCDs later by freeing up oGCDs that would otherwise need to be consumed in place of the shielding, costing a greater number of overall DPS GCDs over the course of the fight.

And we can go around and around in circles, but all that matters is this:

Deploy Crit Adlo is an extremely powerful ability in specific situations - which occur frequently enough to justify its existence - and offers additional optimization options for high end groups running high end content, as well as offering a useful ability for progression and health buffers for content when at lower ilevels.

People wanting to hate on it no matter what and against all logic and reason may dance around this all they want, that's the end of the argument. And that's why it is often optimal to use. And again, WHEN it is not, it is irrelevant.

You managed to completely miss the point.
Or maybe it was deliberate because of our past interactions, who knows. After all, you felt the need to explain something as if arguing against me when I made the exact same point in my post.

I mean, you were the one being condescending to me and completely missing my point. Not once but (at least) twice.

No, there's no deliberate on my part. Perhaps you're projecting your own actions, but I'll leave that for you to figure out yourself.

We were talking about things being strong or not. Someone brought up lost DPS. Others pointed out how it could be a DPS gain. That person held that it is always a cost - that is important enough to debate over and decide whether the ability is "worthless" or not over, mind you - but also noted they don't play Ultimates, Savages, or even Extremes, and was talking about Normal content. Content in which it is completely irrelevant and you can clear most of without even using most of your oGCDs to begin with.

So I was pointing out the absurdity of discussing optimal DPS in normal content while simultaneously acting high and mighty and pretending the skill has no value in high end content. Content where it CAN BE and often IS optimal and extremely powerful, even when it isn't.

So if you wish to critique someone's point, make sure you've read the room, the context, and understand what they're arguing in the context of what is being discussed, not in some unrelated vacuum of "ackshually..." that isn't relevant to the actual discussion being had.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No, there's no deliberate on my part. Perhaps you're projecting your own actions, but I'll leave that for you to figure out yourself.

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Not at all.
I disagree with some people a lot but I'm entirely capable of agreeing with someone if they make a good point. And I disagree with Gemina a lot but it's still true that a Spreadlo isn't free by nature and that using Dissipation doesn't automatically make it free.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

We were talking about things being strong or not. Someone brought up lost DPS. Others pointed out how it could be a DPS gain. That person held that it is always a cost - that is important enough to debate over and decide whether the ability is "worthless" or not over, mind you - but also noted they don't play Ultimates, Savages, or even Extremes, and was talking about Normal content.

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And that is exactly what I disagreed with as well as you might have noticed.
Here:
"I disagree though that Spreadlo is near worthless or a relic of the past."

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Content in which it is completely irrelevant and you can clear most of without even using most of your oGCDs to begin with.

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I know that Gemina doesn't participate in endgame content.

But one thing: optimizing is not limited to Ex and above and perhaps that is where the misunderstanding stems from.
You can optimize in all content and doing it is independent from the need to do it to increase your chances for a kill. That was the point I made and where I disagreed and still disagree with you.
The need to optimize doesn't even exist in Ex and Savage. Even at min ilvl you don't seem to need it from what I've seen in p1s to p4s part 1 - the only fight I can't speak for is p4s part 2 at min ilvl. So even in the vast majority of endgame content it is irrelevant in terms of "Is it necessary for a kill or not?".
You can still clear with comfort GCD shielding every aoe, without greeding for another GCD on melee or caster, without uptime strats, without shield-cheesing mechanics, without GCD shielding to be able to use melee lb3.

Despite all this it is completely valid to optimize in Ex, Savage above min ilvl and at min ilvl - and yes, even in alli raids, dungeons and normal raids. Precisely because the fact that something, as you said, is irrelevant and doesn't matter doesn't contest the point that it might be suboptimal.
If something was optimal, it was optimal even if it wasn't needed for a clear.
If something was suboptimal, it was suboptimal even if it wouldn't have made a difference in terms of clearing content.
I never said that something is always suboptimal or always optimal, on the contrary. Just that it making a difference or not doesn't change the facts.

It sounded as if your stance is "It (Spreadlo or any other GCD heal) can be optimal but even if it is not it doesn't matter because a kill shouldn't rely on 295 potency from a Broil" and while it's true that kill shouldn't and likely never will be decided by one Broil more or less and also true that GCD heals can be optimal (as I stressed in my other post) it does not mean that it's automatically irrelevant in a discussion about optimal gameplay just because it wasn't and shouldn't be needed to even get a kill.

I hope my point is clearer now.
As for your digs... I will simply opt to ignore them unless you'd prefer to have mud fight over the internet.

P4S pt1 needs significantly more optimisation than pt2 at min ilvl for whatever reason++

On topic, 100% optimisation isn't needed for the overwhelming majority of content out there, doubly so as a healer. However for many people, improving and chasing their own performance metrics IS a good chunk of the enjoyment.

I have great logs in most casual content and I can promise you it's not because I'm legitimately good, it's simply because I try hard.

Of course a adlo spread isn’t optimal but if it gives you 3 less gcd heals in a situation like god king thordarn phase because you either swap mitigation a bit around or it just blocks 3 out of 6/7 hits in a 1-1-6 stack. Same with gigaflare, first hit with a adlo spread and decent mitigation blocks 1 hit full and that safes in most cases 1 gcd heal from both healer.

All I'll say then is this:

There are times it's optimal.

There are times it is a massive buffer that pays off for it being EVER. SO. MINIMALLY. SLIGHTLY. sub-optimal.

And you can only do it on a 90 sec CD, so it's not something you're like to use on CD anyway but rather using deliberately at key times when you can get the most out of it and it makes things overall better than they otherwise would be - e.g. optimal/optimizing.

And there are times when it is extremely useful and beneficial, hence, very worth-full.

If you want to believe otherwise, on any or all points, you are free to do so and I will not contest it further.

You really took the time to say that Adlo Spread can be both optimal and sub-optimal ������������������

These forums are definitely amusing if nothing else.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

You really took the time to say that Adlo Spread can be both optimal and sub-optimal ������������������

These forums are definitely amusing if nothing else.

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To be fair we don’t have much else to do as healers

Otherwise we’d be taking up space that could be taken up by more important things; like the 875th thread by a salty SAM main about how their entire job is eternally dead because they lose one button