If I'm not on healer and greed hard on something or if the healers seems to be the nervous type, I surecast/ Arm's Lengths the mechanic that they'll most likely panic on. But even though I generally now exactly how much I can greed, it's not the end of the world of the healer yoinks me when I was perfectly fine. One GCD lost, I can live with that.
I rather see a healer trying to use their whole toolkit and aim to use even clunky niche skills with a horrible delay well when I would've been fine over simply removing everything that requires some thought and timing. I'm not my character, touch me with Rescue all you like. I approve of every healer that is learning to use it even if it fails or was unnecessary.
And if you see people trolling each other, it's more often than not friends queueing together and having a good laugh. If they got indeed trolled by a stranger it's their responsibility to file a report so the person abusing it gets a strike/ ban but no reason to remove a tool just because someone abused it. Assuming that every death by Rescue was a malicious troll that wanted to annoy strangers just because it suits your argument and you couldn't handle a less than one GCD control loss of your character is quite frankly laughable and negative bias.
Rescue is Griefing
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08-09-2022, 05:45 AMRilifane
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08-09-2022, 05:51 AMHyoMinParkCan confirm this is a thing. I have two friends that enjoy Rescuing each other into AOEs or off the edges in content. I usually go as the second healer so no random healer is having to deal with raising both of them after they’ve had their laughs; but this is something that happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
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08-09-2022, 05:58 AMaxetasticMy partner does this to me in Syrcus tower. Rescue into the rings where the Wrights on second boss will freeze you. Anything to make that raid a little funnier.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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08-09-2022, 06:22 AMICountFrom0
If you are seeing something misused for griefing, I have only one question:
Did you report it?
Yes? Good, let them handle it, move on. You have improved the world.
No? Report the next one. Not reporting them just encourages them. Folks get away with it, they think it's okay to keep doing it, and eventually move on to doing worse things. -
08-09-2022, 06:27 AMDiaDeem
I've been thanked for rescuing people away from danger.
People used to spam Holy in Rev Toll in 2013 at the Tomestone shop. People that wanna grief will do it, with or without Rescue or Holy. -
08-09-2022, 06:49 AMRansuI can't recall a single time I've had rescue used on me in a pug group....If you're getting "griefed" all the time by rescue then maybe the problem is actually you? Sounds like you're causing problems and they are just fed up with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luin
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08-09-2022, 07:25 AMSemirhage
Healing is griefing. You're basically playing god and determining whether I live or die. No role should be able to play the game for another like that.
Using Addle or Feint is griefing. In those moments, you could determine whether the whole party lives or dies. Nobody should have that kind of influence over someone else's gameplay.
Sometimes I wonder how on earth the healer role got so unbelievably boring in this game, then I get a reminder that the DPS players are hellbent on making sure that healers are *never* allowed to negatively impact them even unintentionally. And then I look at the babyproof healers of current year. And then I see threads raging to make them into even duller curebots. And I get it. -
08-09-2022, 07:36 AMBacentYes, make options to disable part of someone's kit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneshda
How about people just do the magic C word and COMMUNICATE??????
It's not hard to use your words in a non aggressive way. I'm not doing that right now cause people act like it can only be used wrong.
But people just wanna go 'wah remove it because I might have over reacted to someone using it on me and trying to help'.
Edit: I typed this out earlier and forgot to hit post when I went to get groceries. Kweheh. -
08-09-2022, 08:04 AMZanarkand-Ronso
Rescue is not Griefing.
But Trolls like to Grief WITh Rescue.
Rescue is a good and useful skill. But yes, there are people out there that; given the ability, will turn something good, into something bad.
Like some threads in these very forums...good topics, or topics with good intentions...twisted and spun into something bad -
08-09-2022, 08:13 AMAneshdaQuote:
Originally Posted by Bacent
I had never a good Rescue, 99% moved my Char into AOE's so that I died. Even if I said at the beginning of a Trial, Raid, Alliance, Dungeon, that I don't want to be Rescued, then Healers do it to 100% on purpose just to mess you up. At this point communication is useless. Why not give Players the ability to disable Rescue? -
08-09-2022, 08:15 AMSannaR
I try to pull off a rescue on people who fail at Simon says in Rabanaster. Also I hear it can be used as a nice way to save poor sods that used an LB3 that are now in danger of death due to animation lock.
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08-09-2022, 08:25 AMSebazy
Yeah, rescuing out of the LB3 animation lock is imo the most common decent usage of the ability now.
Personally I've fat fingered it literally once in a dungeon and promptly apologised for it, outside of getting pulled through the middle in Suzaku it's really not that big a deal and outside of friends trolling each other to make farms more fun, I rarely see it getting abused. IMHO you're much more likely to get cleaved because of an oblivious/troll tank than you are get rescued and actually killed because of it.
And frankly, in 99% of content, who even cares if you do get killed, is that that big of a deal? Go look up the sort of clean up operations that used to be required to recover an old Everquest Planes or Vex Thal wipe. That's a death that's a big deal. FFXIV's 'death penalty' is an absolute joke by comparison. A bit like this thread. -
08-09-2022, 08:25 AMDoki
Just give me a /rescueoff so I can toggle wether or not I can be rescued
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08-09-2022, 08:46 AMAzuriI've said this before. This function should absolutely be in the game. It should also disable all incoming healing. You are the only one responsible for your healthbar, afterall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doki
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08-09-2022, 08:48 AMBacent'I've never had a good one so make it where I can turn it off because that makes all of them bad'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneshda
Communication isn't useless. If you communicate and they go out of your way to bother you with it. Report them and move on. Sorry you had to deal with it.
Sounds like some assumptions happening here though with your 'numbers' you're giving. 'Never had a good rescue 99% moved me into an AoE'. What about the 1% you're not talking about, or are you just saying 99% to make it look like you're not grouping everyone up together? Then you talk about 'healers doing it 100% of the time just to mess you up when you communicate.' You make me have a hard time believing this.
Write their names down and just keep an eye out for them. If it keeps happening with the same people and you've been reporting it, it counts as multiple offenses on them.
Wanting a 'toggle' to make a skill 100% useless is gonna piss off people who actually use it in GOOD ways. I use it in GOOD ways when I'm not goofing around with my fiance and friends.
Also if you want to complain about this. I'll do the opposite kind.
I'm upset that healers DONT try to kill me when I'm asking them to do so, and even offering gil to do it when I'm just a DPS. -
08-09-2022, 09:08 AMNekoMataMataI don't think I'm perfect or that I don't need help at times, but I've had rescue kill me more times than save me sadly. If anything your response seems like a projection. You seem to think that you are the ultimate healer who can do no wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonFlyy
Raising someone isn't god moding? You're sacrificing 2000 MP and Swiftcast(sometimes, othertimes just valuable time) to bring someone back who you then have to heal and who then has the weakness status for almost two minutes. That's pretty fair, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
And no, what happened is they rescued me as we were both running towards the rest of the party. The party wasn't even that far away, and right as I got to the party I was pulled right back to where they had cast rescue. Perhaps they lagged and saw me far behind them, who knows, but considering I was out performing them for the entire fight, they should have kept to themselves. Also I love how you make the assumption that they were already with the party. Honestly, that alone voids the majority of your arguments.
And since you're so confident that mistiming or misjudging a rescue is not abuse, then I assure you, from now on I will report all failed instances of rescue that result in the death of the one being "rescued." We'll find out if it's punishable or not by whether or not the GMs take action.
And people are sitting here defending the action, while you're sitting here bragging about breaking the rules with it why, exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby66
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08-09-2022, 09:09 AMNekoMataMata"I can't play with your character like a ragdoll once every couple minutes, therefore you should not receive any healing from me at all."Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuri
Totally logical. -
08-09-2022, 09:13 AMSemirhage
DPS Karens pitching a hissy fit about possibly losing one GCD of uptime in a two minute period, dramatically calling it "god moding" and "playing the game for me", "taking control of me like a ragdoll", flinging themselves at their fainting couches because healers have a tool that can assist players in a bad spot.
Touch. Grass. You drama queen. -
08-09-2022, 09:16 AMNav_FaeThen let me learn the hard way.Quote:
Originally Posted by axetastic
Maybe I'm just greeding because I know I'll survive and it's just a small inconvenience for the healer that they have to heal me. I can't tell you how many times I've been rescued because the healer thought they were helping me when all they did was make things worse. Being rescued while melee comboing as a rdm when I know I'll survive the attack feels kind of bad when I have a backflip. The healer doesn't know what I'm planning to do. -
08-09-2022, 09:19 AMNekoMataMata"This person said something I don't like, they need to touch grass."Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
How about you come up with a compelling argument instead of throwing phrases like that or the word karen around? Also I've played more as a healer than any other role. Nice assumptions once again and good job proving that you lack the necessary brain power to put together a logical answer without insulting the other person. -
08-09-2022, 09:23 AMNav_FaeMin/maxing uptime is one of the joys of playing a DPS job. Your whole existence is to do big damage. So personally I take being a dps karen with pride. I actually want to be good at my job.Quote:
Originally Posted by NekoMataMata
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08-09-2022, 09:29 AMMintnHoney
I interrupt this mutual discussion board griefing with a reminder that even just healing in general can be considered punishable griefing under the right circumstances.
I say, let them have their rescue cake and eat it too, whomever they are. -
08-09-2022, 10:44 AMhydralusJust crit harder 5head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav_Fae
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08-09-2022, 10:47 AMZedxKaynGod I wish there would be massive damage coming out in such content.Quote:
Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000
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08-09-2022, 10:56 AMSeera1024Rescue itself isn't griefing. It's all how you use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000
If you use it to pull someone into an enemy's AoE simply to watch them get a vuln stack or die or take damage, that's griefing.
If you use it to pull someone to where you believe is a safe spot and it turns out it is not and they (and possibly you as well) die, that is not griefing. That's human error. -
08-09-2022, 11:02 AMDarthgummibear
As annoying as it can be, for me most of the time it's like "Oh, I was a total dumbass just now and almost died, so thanks."
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08-09-2022, 11:09 AMLunalepsy
And this is why jobs and other game elements have been streamlined to the point there is no difference between them.
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08-09-2022, 11:34 AMHyoMinParkYou misunderstand. I’m not talking about simply raising. I’m talking about how I can pick and choose who to raise. Like the “problematic” teammate that dies repeatedly. Perhaps even one that I’ve Rescued into closer range so that they can get healed, and they just run right back out of it and miss subsequent healing. That’s more god modeing than being able to pull someone to me once every 2 minutes since now I’m choosing if they are raised to actively participate.Quote:
Originally Posted by NekoMataMata
Rescue isn’t god modeing. If it is, then simply playing a healer is god modeing because healers determine if you live or die.
Then perhaps do a better job of explaining what happened if you don’t want people assuming? I do wonder how you know you were out performing them the entire time, though. Quite curious…Quote:
And no, what happened is they rescued me as we were both running towards the rest of the party. The party wasn't even that far away, and right as I got to the party I was pulled right back to where they had cast rescue. Perhaps they lagged and saw me far behind them, who knows, but considering I was out performing them for the entire fight, they should have kept to themselves. Also I love how you make the assumption that they were already with the party. Honestly, that alone voids the majority of your arguments.
That’s because it is not. Unless you want to say a healer making a mistake—which is what a misjudgment or mistiming is—is also abuse. Do you consider a WHM mistiming their Cure III and the healing propagation causing two party members furthest away to die due to the game not registering the heal fast enough abuse as well? What about if a healer misjudged the minimum amount of HP needed to live the next raidwide and someone dies from that?Quote:
And since you're so confident that mistiming or misjudging a rescue is not abuse,
Considering you will never know if they take action or not per GM policy, seems like a pointless endeavor to me. But you must be fun to have in parties if your solution is to threaten reports for every little thing that upsets you or accidentally gets you killed.Quote:
then I assure you, from now on I will report all failed instances of rescue that result in the death of the one being "rescued." We'll find out if it's punishable or not by whether or not the GMs take action.
Btw, the reports would only be accepted if you were the person involved. GMs don’t respond to third party reports that don’t involve you. So if you report the WHM for “griefing and killing” a BLM with Rescue, then definitely nothing will happen because you aren’t the BLM involved. -
08-09-2022, 11:46 AMGemina
If I wanted to grief a player, I wouldn't heal them. If we want to bring up a DPS loss, or some kind of healer god complex; if a player slips up and takes unnecessary damage, and an unavoidable attack is about to finish them off, I could just simply let them die.
Why would I do that though? DPS players pump out far more damage than I do, so it isn't in mine let alone anyone else's best interest to let them die. This same concept applies to Rescue. It doesn't serve anyone to use the ability maliciously.
I can also say this, I have killed far more players by hesitating to use Rescue than I have actually using it on someone. Something interesting to think about for a healer is if a player dies, and their rescue is not on cooldown. What this means to the healer is the player could have been saved. Granted, a healer is not always in position to rescue a player who is about to face an untimely demise.
Of course, I won't deny that the ability has caused grief. The OP and others are evidence of that. However, what needs to be known is that 99.9% of healers have nothing but the best intent 99.9% of the time they use Rescue. It doesn't always work out that way, but they are just trying to do their job.
The ability is also highly used to actually increase DPS uptime. I have used the ability countless times to bring a melee back into range when mechs force them out. I have received many appreciative comments in chat when doing so. This ability is actually really, really good to have. -
08-09-2022, 12:37 PMZedxKayn
Rescue should be opt in or opt out and I don't get why the idea of giving players the choice to be rescued or not got people frothing at the mouth.
Personally I've had enough of being rescued 10 seconds before the mechanic goes off when I was already slidecasting my way to the safe spot in the first place. DF healers tend not to know better. -
08-09-2022, 12:55 PMAnotherPersonQuote:
Originally Posted by ZedxKayn
If it's opt-in and opt-out, then the skill won't always activate when the healer uses it, thereby throwing the healer off and wasting their time to judge the situation and try to pull you to safety. Human error is normal - all players make it, whether by being DPS, tank, or healer. Trying to remove a healer's utility because you don't like it is because they have the possibility of griefing you is comparable to the healer saying "I don't want you to greed for DPS because you have the possibility of taking damage and making my job harder, thereby griefing me".
In that case, you might as well just sign an opt-out raise of shame if you ever happen to die. -
08-09-2022, 01:05 PMMidareyukki
On one hand, I don't see why giving players a buff to select when to yeet to the stooge that gave it to you is such a bad thing. It offers what OP wants: consent, it's less intrusive and it places the responsability 100% on the person for clicking it too late\early\not at all rather than on the healer for using it at all.
We have two duty action buttons as it is, it's not like repurposing one is going to break anything. Plus, could even allow for more actions of the sort.
On the other hand, it does defy the purpose of Rescue. Often, healers rescue you specifically because they see you screw up and you WON'T have the mindset\knowledge of the mechanic\reaction time to correct it. So sometimes giving up a bit of control is good for you not wasting them 2400 MP and some sanity. And some DPS for the whole party.
"Just leave me dead" is all fun and games until you realize this could save entire parties if the next mechanic requires specific people to be alive. -
08-09-2022, 01:14 PMZedxKaynTbf I'm deeply dissatisfied with the current state of healers, so much that I pretty much quit the role when EW dropped despite my then undying love for AST, but as far as utility goes, a skill that messes with the experiences of other players to such an intrusive extent is probably the last type of utility I'd want.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
I think a design similar to Thresh's lantern would be best because it is entirely non-intrusive. Getting rescued when you're enjoying uptime (or alternatively trying your goddamn best not to die of boredom) feels awful, whereas I think a "lantern" would be very satisfying. To keep on the LoL comparison, there's a reason Thresh's lantern is one of the most satisfying skills in the game while Tahm Kench's ally vore tech makes people mald. The latter is basically rescue.
To explain the lantern, Thresh throws it where he choses (so in XIV's case the equivalent of the lantern would probably be thrown at the boss's ass) and whoever clicks it will be dragged to Thresh. So it's basically as if the healer was "offering" a rescue while allowing the potential rescuee to first off choose IF they want to take it, and then WHEN they want to take it.
Because I do actually like rescue used well but a good 95% of the rescues me or the people I queue with have gotten casted on have been absolute ass and personally I dislike getting rescued a lot more than I dislike raising or healing people. -
08-09-2022, 01:21 PMBobby66Cause this is a non issue that is why. It is a 2 min cooldown relax. Also you will be hard pressed to prove it was done with malicious intent, or are you advocating for a a throw the baby out with the bath water approach? Also would not say I was bragging was mostly juts confirming that some do use it as a tank a leash.Quote:
Originally Posted by NekoMataMata
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08-09-2022, 01:23 PMMidareyukkiI can vouch for this. I don't mald with Tahm's devour, but it does catch me off guard, both as a teammate and as an opponent. Thresh feels fairer.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZedxKayn
But as I mentioned above, the issue with this is people having the reaction to use the Lantern. Some people are idiots and don't know they're diving into danger. Some don't know the mechanic at all. Some people are too slow to react or mistime the action. And some people just get distracted.
Which, great, it removes the blame from the healer, as all responsibility will now fall on the person being rescued, but sometimes an impromptu and intrusive rescue can save a whole run.
Edit: Not saying it's a bad idea, just that there are caveats we either need to accept or work around. It's not clear-cut. -
08-09-2022, 01:38 PMZedxKaynAlso I find this reply ironic considering that rescue is a role-wide action and thus participates in making healers feel indistinguishable from one another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunalepsy
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08-09-2022, 02:18 PMPacketdancerQuote:
Originally Posted by Aneshda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doki
As I have said in many (many, many, many) other threads...Quote:
Originally Posted by ZedxKayn
Rescue is a janky tool at the best of times; even when I know it will save someone, I often don't bother trying—at least on the first pull or two—because half the time Rescue goes off after it should, and sometimes that's a tiny bit too late. And yeah, it's jarring and sometimes embarrassing/annoying when you get Rescued.
Despite that, it is frequently the only option I have for saving people. And if I do not use it, I am going to be out 2400 MP (unless I'm on WHM with Thin Air off cooldown) as well as either my Swiftcast or 8 seconds of cast time.
It is a terrible tool, but it is also the only tool SQEX has given us for those scenarios.
And if in addition to the janky timing and behavior, there was a solid chance that Rescue just would not work, I know that I personally—and quite a few other healers—would simply not use it. Which would be, functionally, equivalent to removing Rescue.
So if it's a choice between a 'disable toggle' on Rescue that makes it useless or actually getting rid of it—the latter option at least is likely to have SQEX giving us some other tool to use.
If Rescue needs to go, then actually get rid of it so there's a chance of getting something useful in its place. Don't kill it, remove all the organs, and then prop the taxidermied corpse up in a chair and go "Look! Rescue's still here! You don't need a different tool; you still have this one!"
Because, you want to know a secret? Most healers don't like Rescue. It is, as I said, janky in the best of circumstances. We only hold onto it because it is the only option SQEX has given us to save people in many situations.
If people approach this not as "Rescue is terrible, healers are trolls, we should take away their one tool that can keep people alive in many of these situations." but rather come at it as "Rescue is a flawed tool, let's brainstorm some better alternatives that can work to save people in the scenarios Rescue is meant to." then I promise you, most healers will be your allies in that discussion.
I have, in previous threads, suggested multiple designs for a replacement for Rescue. The simplest is one where instead of moving someone, it puts a buff on them for, say, 15 seconds. If they drop below 1 HP during the time they have the buff, they instead are rocketed to the healer's side (for those 'the arena is vanishing' or knockback scenarios), left alive with 1 HP, and given the Brink of Death debuff (e.g. the one you get from a double-rez).
Under that design, if the person did have a plan to get out of the bad, then hey, the buff drops off and nothing happens; no debuff, no being moved to the healer's side. If they did not have a plan to get to safety (or executed that plan poorly), the healer is at least not out 2400 MP and potentially 8 seconds of slow-casting a rez. The Brink of Death debuff means you can't cheese it ("Look, an extra tank invuln!") without consequence.
And the ability only fires if the person was going to die; if they want to try to complain that they were moved against their well... well, if it went off, they would've been dead without it. Meaning they would still have ended up where the healer is standing by virtue of that being how rezzes work; you show up where the healer who raised you is standing.
This is, of course, far from the only possible replacement you could make for Rescue; it's just a relatively simple one, and demonstrates how you could make an ability that it would be difficult to use for trolling. (After all, if it goes off, it means that if it hadn't gone off the person would've otherwise been dead.)
Come at the discussion from that angle, and I can almost promise you that you will meet much less resistance from healers.
(Not, of course, that SQEX is likely to make class/role balance decisions based on forum threads regardless, but still.)
I feel like this merits quoting Josh Strife Hayes, as regards MMO healers: "You're all sacks of hitpoints, and I'm god; never forget that!"Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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08-09-2022, 02:53 PMElkanah
Did anyone notice the healer in the new FFXIV player guide (they just released on the lodestone)? The SCH rescued the adventurer back to the screen! TOXIC lullll. I love how it's become a thing in XIV and the community team is rolling with it.
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08-09-2022, 03:04 PMMika_ZahardStop standing in bad and position properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luin
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08-09-2022, 03:21 PMTaleraRistain
I tend to use Rescue sparingly. I agree with NekoMataMata's general point that I'm deciding for someone else when I use it. I try to give my party mates the benefit of the doubt that they have a plan. Unless it's something I know is insta-death and they won't make it to the safe area in time. Or they have been missing mechanics and I'm not confident they won't continue to miss them. But I'm generally pretty chill even if they get a vuln here and there so long as it's not putting undue strain on my ability to maintain support for the entire party.
As Packetdancer mentioned, Rescue can be janky sometimes. I really don't like the drag animation. I would be a lot happier if it was an instant warp. Because I have accidentally killed people with server lag and yanking them through the bad. I apologized and most were pretty cool about it. So I'm not afraid of using Rescue. I just don't find a lot of instances where I feel it needs to be used. I wouldn't cry if they got rid of it, since it can be used for some rather obnoxious purposes. If they did, then I'd be happy to get a gap closer instead.