Not this again, indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
You can increase the difficulty of content without making it anywhere near Extreme or Savage levels. Insinuating otherwise is simply being disingenuous. Presently, the MSQ as a whole is essentially one massive participation reward that's almost impossible to fail. This does undercut the whole epic saga of the story when the supposed big bad can be facerolled. A prime example of this is Thordan. Even as a brand new player only ten months into FFXIV when I first cleared, I was disappointed by how much of a joke he was—to the point I stopped even dodging mechanics because not only was nobody else bothering. When I was hit myself, they did next to nothing. Did it ruin the conclusion of Heavensward? No. However, it certainly left a sour taste. Shinryu, conversely, was much better despite still being easy enough. Sadly, power creep as trivialized that fight but in his heyday, he was good.
As for that scene with Zenos. It's a cheat trope that isn't explained well. We never learn why Zenos can stomp us into the ground so easily yet a handful of dungeons later, we're returning the favor. He's just invincibly strong because the plot needed him to be.
Why does everyone complain about STORY based MMO's?
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08-04-2022, 10:58 PMForteNightshade
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08-04-2022, 11:02 PMBaconBitshttps://media.discordapp.net/attachm...614_045718.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
It's not a proper thread until Vel goes nutty on the keyboard for reasons incomprehensible to the human mind. -
08-04-2022, 11:06 PMVelKallorEven more so when what i did say, is twisted and reworded to say what i never said. But you know, narrative.Quote:
It's not a proper thread until Vel goes nutty on the keyboard for reasons incomprehensible to the human mind.
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08-04-2022, 11:10 PMPaduduRequoting what you said and asking for you to explain is twisting the narrative? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
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08-04-2022, 11:11 PMVelKallorNo.Quote:
Bro TLOU2 is rated higher than XIV on Metacritic.
FF 14 94 vs 93 TLOU2
FF 14 9.4 vs 5.7 TLOU2..that user score...OUCH. -
08-04-2022, 11:13 PMZegtry
You are well aware that you are playing an Rpg. even before going online? In addition, you are playing a game called Final Fantasy, which happens to be a game with more stories and filling quests than gameplay...
You come to the game knowing explicitly that such a license is going to have a number of filler quests and a pretty big story. If you don't like this type of content why not skip the moments you deem unnecessary in your progress?
If the majority of players like to have such content you have no reason to stop them from continuing to like such a thing when your simple reason is to want to play endgame content and therefore to eliminate the essence even license.
Stop wanting generic games that look alike.... -
08-04-2022, 11:15 PMPaduduReread what he saidQuote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
FF14:EW has a score of 92Quote:
Originally Posted by ZedxKayn
TLOU2 has a score of 93.
Don't bullshit bro, and don't bring up user reviews when you quoted paid journalists lol.
https://www.metacritic.com/game/play...-of-us-part-ii
https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/f...-xiv-endwalker
I'll jump off your case now, but man, don't lie when it can be easily searched on google lul
p.s: if you want to just search of FFXIV itself, it has a metacritic score of 49!
https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/f...asy-xiv-online
p.p.s: I didn't account for the fact that was 1.0, so here you go, have ARR. Still lower than TLOU2 with a score of 83!
https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/f...a-realm-reborn -
08-04-2022, 11:31 PMJojoyaI don't see everyone complaining so why complain about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE
Not everyone likes the same thing. Not everyone has played a Final Fantasy game in the past and those who haven't aren't familiar with how FF games are structured.
Just because someone isn't into story doesn't mean they won't like other content and features of the game.
The only thing I'm against is altering existing content to please those who don't care about story. It's better for SE to add an alternate progression path to the game for those players.
If SE is able to go back and retrofit MSQ for those who want a solo player experience, it shouldn't be hard for them to create a non-story progression path for those who don't care about story.
Remember how we need to choose between keyboard/mouse and controller set up when our characters first enter their starting city? Follow that with a second question: Do you wish to choose the path of the Warrior of Light or the path of the Mercenary? The WoL path would be the MSQ. The Mercenary path would have dungeons/trial automatically unlock at the appropriate level but give the player no guidance on how to level. Or perhaps SE adds new worlds specifically for the Mercenary path.
Queuing in Duty Finder would only match them to other Mercenaries so there's no conflict with those enjoying the story. Players on both paths would still interact with each other in the open world content such as FATEs. They could still pre-form groups together to queue for specific duties or roulettes (though any needed random matchmaking to fill out a party would only be with Mercenaries, not WoLs).
The Mercenary path would be a bit harder as there would be no frequent quest rewards to get gear and gil though they could still get those things from other content. There would be no guidance on what to do next (at least not until players started creating and sharing such guides). If they later decide they do want to experience the story, then they would need to create a new character to start fresh instead of having access to NG+.
There are ways for both types of players to be happy. -
08-04-2022, 11:35 PMRansuThordan and Shinryu both were relatively difficult when they first came out. Shinryu was actually nerfed a few times. All the old expansions had a modicum of difficult content mixed into them, but old content wont stay the same forever. Potencies have changed significantly since HW and SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
Its just the nature of old content. They'd have to redo things to maintain the same difficulty as when they were new. -
08-04-2022, 11:39 PMZedxKayn
Anyways, another thread to complain about those who'd like the MMO part of XIV without being forced to do the story. Show me on the doll where we hurt you.
It's exasperating that kind of threads still pop up even when the devs are currently working on making the MMO aspect totally optional while still not throwing a bone to the people who want to play the game for the MMO it is and not a hundreds hour long JRPG. What even is the point? There's no threats to what you enjoy whatsoever. Just to complain about people who don't like what you like? -
08-04-2022, 11:40 PMRansuMeanwhile the user score....lol. TLOU2 was a terrible game and the user score represents that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Padudu
Also the final link is of FFXIV 1.0 from 2010 which was a bad game. I'm surprised the score wasn't lower.
FFXIV is a story focused MMO. It always has been and always will be and as someone who also really enjoys the games end game I will always have the same message for people. If you don't enjoy story focused content then you shouldn't play this game because the traditional end game type content will always come second in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZedxKayn
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08-04-2022, 11:44 PMCarin-EriQuote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
Well I, for one, agree with you here. -
08-04-2022, 11:45 PMPaduduYou can search up all the FFXIV and its expansions, they are all lower than TLOU2's critic scores. ;PQuote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
And yeah like, I do agree the user scores are different but regular ol' users aren't paid critics lol which was what she quoted before from IGN, gamesradar, ect. That's why I said to not account for user reviews since that's not what's being discussed. -
08-04-2022, 11:58 PMZedxKaynBut XIV remains a MMO and the story being forced, especially with how absolutely massive it is (and let's be honest, through awful questing) will remain polarizing. The game isn't one dimensional and it's a shame that all of this theme park MMO's content is locked behind the story. Regardless, it's not what the devs care about so it's not about to change. This thread is literally just about complaining about people with different opinions that will never sway the game's development. When the devs are already thoroughly catering to the MSQ enjoyers, it comes off as straight up spoiled to make a whole thread not even to complain about an aspect of the game itself, but about fellow customers who are not even being considered by the devs over a matter of opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
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08-05-2022, 12:08 AMNovaeAnd the opposite is also true. Stop thinking FF14 isn't a MMO please. It is, and that's why we compare it to WoW, GW2, ESO or SWTOR and not single player games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zegtry
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08-05-2022, 12:08 AMForteNightshadeAhahahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
No, he wasn't. This has been a complaint for years even from people who cleared him on release. He does nothing. He literally can't hurt you even at the lowest ilvl reasonably obtained. Likewise, Shinryu was never once nerfed. People kept demanding he be nerfed but it never happened. Thordan, in Heavensward, which is what I was referring to, was a complete joke. I should know... I beat him, in Heavensward. As did many others, all of whom also pointed how incredibly easy he was. -
08-05-2022, 12:13 AMHyoMinParkThordan normal mode was never a difficult fight. Even at HW launch, he was a faceroll. He was an excellent cinematic, but he was never, ever hard. I think you’re confusing him with Thordan EX, which was basically a Savage fight when it came out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
They also never nerfed Shinryu. Not directly. The only “nerf” he got was players getting better gear, since he had no item level sync; and he was released with i290 gear. SB’s item level ended at i400. The only SB content ever nerfed was Orbonne Monastery when they put in the Echo; and Thundergod Cid, which was a direct nerf because people whined about him being hard. Now? The entire raid is a joke, and TGC has to try really hard to wipe the entire raid. It’s easier for people to die simply from not healing Cleansing Strike to full than it is by punishment of failing his mechanics.
Orbonne’s nerfs happened in ShB, btw. The content was not touched when it was relevant. -
08-05-2022, 12:14 AMTyjaconThat was the original version (1.0) released in 2010, NOT ARR which was released in 2013 !!Quote:
Originally Posted by Padudu
Nice try though. -
08-05-2022, 12:17 AMKazharYou people sure love to dismiss any opinion you dislike with the same old "muh minority".Quote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
Sure, but why bring metacritic in the first place then? Endwalker's user rating is based on 1.4k reviews, which are also less than 1% of the "millions who play". It's less than 0.1% actually.
If you want play the numbers game, don't use such blatant double standards.
Forums are not the whole community, but there are representative of a certain demographic of players. Same for Reddit. Same for Twitter. Same for Metacritic. Same for your server's Novice Network. You can't use one as the definitive judge of quality (which is stupid in the first place, because being popular has never shielded anything from criticism like you always love to imply), and ignore the others. -
08-05-2022, 12:19 AMPaduduOh whoops, my bad. I forgot that there was a difference. I could edit to reflect that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyjacon
https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/f...a-realm-reborn
Critic score: 83. Still lower than TLOU2's critic score! Oh bummer, what was I trying for again? -
08-05-2022, 12:26 AMZedxKaynThere's also massive survivor bias within the community, what about the opinions of those thousands who tried and got utterly filtered by the combat or the MSQ or whatever?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
My personal experience is that not one single person I've got to try the game out finished the MSQ because of just how long it is for how it's presented no matter how much they push themselves. Point being XIV is very far from being all praises, but it's all people in the community tend to hear because most people who have criticism towards the game either already moved on and/or got backlash, because I've seldom seen a community so allergic to criticism. -
08-05-2022, 12:34 AMLittleImpI have never understood this justification. Many other FF games have 10x the amount of actual gameplay between story beats than 14 has.Quote:
Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE
14s story is insanely padded by fetch quests and filler arcs, most of which revolve around traveling between npcs and talking to them. This is the only MMO I've ever played where I found myself begging for a 'kill 30 boars' quest to break up the monotony of the 7 million 'speak to alphinaud' quests between dungeons.
The core problem is the proportion of story to gameplay just feels VERY imbalanced while progressing the MSQ. Giving people an option to start at another point, or skip it altogether, doesn't 'destroy the story' or impact your ability to experience it whatsoever. -
08-05-2022, 01:03 AMSkivvy
Here comes the broken record.....
My only other real experience with a FF title is XI.....SE's only other MMO. That game also has a lot of story, but it doesn't force you to complete 100% of every prior expansion before you can jump into current endgame (or whatever activity you were looking to do). You can have all the expansion stories (MSQ) open at various parts and work on them as you want. Now...the story isn't that continuous there, so it does make it easier. But then you have games like.....
....GW2, and that game does have a continuous story. They also let you jump around the various chapters and story lines if it suits you.
Players aren't stupid. We don't need to be forced into a mandatory story line, lest our precious story be ruined! If someone is jumping ahead, I'm preeeetty certain that they are aware they may spoil some of the earlier story, or that some things may not make much sense.
But anyhoo, at the end of the day, this is an MMO and not a single-player game. MMOs draw all sorts of people with all sorts of varied interests. SE could have had some foresight to plan for new players who would be jumping in years later, ways to make it easier to catch up with their friends who already play, more jumping in points as mentioned above, etc. Give players more control in how they progress and play the game. People love options. And SE is aware that the MSQ causes issues, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered changing up ARR and modifying instances. -
08-05-2022, 01:27 AMNekoMataMata
I think the issue lays with the story to actionable content ratio.
When you play a story game, you know what you're getting into, but you're usually not looking for a whole movie. It's important to let the player have control every once in a while as they're experiencing the story. There needs to be a balance within the story itself between cutscenes and the player actually being able to do something.
There were times as I played that I definitely just chilled out and lounged around for a whole a day or two while playing through MSQ because I knew that there was no way I was going to be doing anything myself besides just reading and watching cutscenes.
They did liven the game up a bit with the parts of the story in SB where you get to play as other characters and directly experience the story through them, but given how limited that was I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that they don't think the majority of the casual player base could handle anything tougher. -
08-05-2022, 01:53 AMhydralus
In a game where the story is the main focus of the game, you can slip them $25 and skip 90% of it. If it was a story based game you'd think they'd make playing the story mandatory and the endgame content would be something you pay to skip.
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08-05-2022, 02:02 AMRansuWhat? You absolutely had to progress to specific parts of the story to unlock sky/sea in both RoZ and CoP expansions (Sky needed to be rank 12 in the story if I recall to open up access to the zone). CoP was especially annoying because specific fights lowered your level meaning you had to have level appropriate gear to do the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skivvy
ToAU also had specific content locked behind story progression. -
08-05-2022, 02:08 AMSkivvyI never said it didn't have some requirements, however, you weren't required to complete 100% of the previous story lines in order to play whatever was current.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
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08-05-2022, 02:18 AMCachAre those people in the room with you?Quote:
Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE
Perhaps you're conflating this with people that have problems with the writing quality/pacing?
Or maybe you're mad that some people would prefer a fresh start for the new arc starting on 7.0? (which is a very reasonable request IMO)
Most people that don't enjoy story quit early on ARR, or more rarely they just muscle their way buying skips or manually skipping.
I would even go as far that most people don't like text dumps and slower pace stuff but that's probably my personal experience being picked on for liking jRPGs during the SNES era talking.
NoQuote:
Seriously, The game IS the story.
Beyond a certain set of aesthetics, what does this even mean really?Quote:
It is a FINAL FANTASY game.
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08-05-2022, 02:38 AMJojoyaBy that thinking, Duty Support shouldn't exist because it's a MMO so players should be required to be in player groups for all group content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
I don't think anyone is saying the story focus should be removed. It's what makes the game stand out for so many of us.
What they're asking for is a better option than story skip for those players who are attracted to the game by content/features other than the story so they can enjoy those things without having to waste about 200 hours of their time progressing through story to get to what really interests them. Nothing is harmed by giving that option.
Allowing them to approach the story on their own terms may even spark their interest in the story where if you force it on them from the start they're going to through up the usual human reaction of resisting what's being involuntarily forced on them. Look at some of the content creators out there who started by skipping dialog and cutscenes to rush to end game, get to end game and go "whoa, these encounters are amazing because they incorporate story elements, maybe I should go back and give the story a try now".
Options are not a bad thing. -
08-05-2022, 02:41 AMRaoabolicI know they are just nameless NPCs but the squad system is essentially just trusts. :'(Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
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08-05-2022, 05:09 AMAvoidyEven ShB's final boss suffers from this; it's so sad. It burns down so fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
Basically if you ever take a newbie to any cool old trials, you've gotta select the minimum item level/no echo settings and run in with a full party so they can get some semblance of a good experience. It shouldn't need to be this way. But every time people propose retooling it or tweaking it or making the mechanics have any consequence at all, some people stomp their feet because they think we want it to be Ultimate.
I believe this is just another element contributing to the story feeling sort of "meh" for a lot of people. Like, these bosses can take dozens of hours to arrive at, and then you stop and wait in a queue for ages depending on your job, and once you get in the thing just... melts. Retooling the ARR stuff was a good start, but the rest of the game desperately needs that treatment as well. Thordan is a joke like you mentioned, but most of the older trials are as well, and the dungeons are basically a 14 minute stroll. -
08-05-2022, 05:18 AMTyjacon
Just curious, how many other Final Fantasy games have you played?
The final fantasy franchise has always been story driven rpg's.
I don't see the story aspect of XIV changing anytime soon since the final fantasy franchise is the flagship of SE.
And Yoshi has said that one of the main reasons XIV is including the duty support is to attract the portion of the final fantasy fan group that don't currently play mmo's.
That's what being a FINAL FANTASY game is, at least to me. And I've played every numbered one published. -
08-05-2022, 08:36 AMMinarisweet
No one does, xiv players complain about the game not having a good difficulty curve for its msq which is a completely valid complaint to have, especially when the solution to the accesibility issue is as simple as adding difficulties...
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08-05-2022, 08:37 AMASkellington
Because just because it is a story based MMO doesn't excuse it from it being y'know AN MMORPG.
FFXIV is a story based MMO yes, but it also is a holy trinity MMO (as in it has dedicated Tank/Healer/Dps) and it has things that are MMO staples such as raids and dungeons.
While I will always say FFXIV has one of if not the best stories in the genre, it isn't going to save it from what I think it utterly fails at:
- Lack luster dungeon content
- Lack luster midcore content (that hopefully gets fixed with Criterion Dungeons)
- Poor job design with Tanks/Healers in a Trinity MMO
And that's my opinion. I can give FFXIV what many people say is the greatest MMO (I don't agree) a complete 1/10 for job design if I so wish. Doesn't mean that it isn't a 7-10/10 for story. -
08-05-2022, 08:51 AMMagicPeanut
Honestly, I only ever see people legitimately complaining about the story on the OF, lol. Personally, I believe this game ranks up there in having one of the best storylines in any game I've ever played. It's gotten to the point where I'm very much spoiled by how amazing the writing is, so sometimes when I play a new game and expect the same level of competence, I feel ultimately let down.
I acknowledge of course, that EW's plot in particular could have benefited from more time baking in the oven, but overall, I think it was still exceptional. I eagerly look forward to future MSQ. -
08-05-2022, 10:57 AMStriker44I think the answer to your question is that most people don't complain about the story - they actually love it! The forums here are probably the only place that has such a negative tone, and that's because there's a band of about a dozen or so dedicated naysayers who just badmouth the game whenever they can, seemingly because the writers didn't choose to write exactly the story they wanted (go figure). Peruse practically anywhere else, including Reddit of all places, and you'll see people being overwhelmingly positive about the story. The forums by their nature also tend to attract the more "hardcore" and eSports focused crowd, and there's more of a tendency among that kind of group to focus almost exclusively on endgame and find getting there (aka the story) to be an irritant, but they're far and away the minority when it comes to the FFXIV playerbase.Quote:
Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE
The only part of the story I find generally gets complaints is the post-ARR questline leading to Heavensward, but even that's almost disappeared since they re-vamped it. In-game, on Youtube, on Reddit - people are enjoying the story. I don't see SE changing that about FFXIV anytime soon, either - as you pointed out, it's the key draw and main focus for this game. So kick back, relax, and enjoy! :D -
08-05-2022, 03:14 PMJojoyaFor many of us, FFXIV is the first and only FF game we've played. We didn't walk in expecting a FF game. We walked in expecting a MMO similar to others that we played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyjacon
Being an avid reader, the story focus drew me in rapidly and I adapted fairly quickly. Others who prefer combat focused content would have a much more difficult time even given warning what differences to expect.
If the goal is to attract new players in the younger generations, SE has to keep in mind what those players are used to (which most likely will not include another FF game) so their transition can be eased instead of assuming they've played other FF titles and know what to expect.
Different people have different reasons for picking up the game. It doesn't need to be saved from anything when it's got a decent sized core audience that enjoys the story driven content and isn't particularly concerned about job design.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
Things like the lack of midcore content might slow population growth but won't kill the game. Thanks to WoW's past success, gamers have a rather warped view of how many active player a MMO needs to be financially successful. It's much smaller than most think. Even the original WoW developers never expected to hit the 100,000 player mark (though they did dream it might happen). One of the Path of Exile developers said in a recent interview that their game would only need 10,000 active players to remain financially viable.
Out of curiosity, where do you think the game is missing out on the RPG side of things? -
08-05-2022, 03:39 PMNav_FaeThat's because it's non-constructive criticismQuote:
Originally Posted by ZedxKayn
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08-05-2022, 03:50 PMLarirawielAlmost every MMO has this problem. And i do not know how to solve it. And yes, it is a huge immersion breaker when a big bad and evil enemy burns down very fast. But if you set the difficulty higher then this enemy will become an impassable wall for many players. And FF14 would be literary over for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avoidy
Cheers -
08-05-2022, 03:56 PMSupersnow845We also have to consider the immersion for other people though, there is a non zero amount of people who would have quit the game after the disappointment and frankly immersion break that happens when you topple bosses like thordran or shinryu with almost no effortQuote:
Originally Posted by Larirawiel
What about their experience is that not equally as valid