LIVE Letter Regarding DRG & AST Postponed Reworks

DRG I'm not really sure what more they can really change with it, unless they plan on merging a few actions/traits together, and it overall feels fine and doesn't really bloat the controller yet.

AST...dear god there's a lot they can do to change button bloat, it's a pain on controller to play unless you're using a specific controller option, and even then it's pushing it.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

DRG I'm not really sure what more they can really change with it, unless they plan on merging a few actions/traits together, and it overall feels fine and doesn't really bloat the controller yet.

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Since they changed MNK to be similar to SAM, one of my thoughts is they will try to make DRG closer to RPR than it already is. The problem is that you would just play a RPR if you wanted that. It's probably a lower development cost if jobs are put into groups where they all function exactly the same but with animation differences and I could see that happening with the amount of jobs they have to balance now, but it's unfortunate as well.

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Originally Posted by Spectrum

It seems weird to me that they're basing these postponements on the feedback of the reworks they gave jobs that didn't necessarily need them, despite DRG and AST definitely needing their actions-per-minute fixed urgently. I literally hurt my finger playing DRG on controller.

Thoughts?

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My thoughts on this subject, are that I fall back to the FFXIV discord's live translation on what was said, where they translated YoshiP to be saying:

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It was too much that was needed

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...and so, rather than thinking that they are postponing the updates because people didn't like what happened to SAM and NIN, I just think they want to go through with their plans in such a way that they let the initial wave of panic fall off before they unveil the changes, and then they stick to their guns and compensate with massive-but-temporary potency buffs when the player population for those jobs inevitably fall off due to player disinterest and disgust.
At least, this has been the tradition with AST. Mutilate it; then, as players grow to dislike it and the population falls due to lack of interest, the dev team will spend the next major patches of the expansion systematically buffing potencies until the rest of the role becomes disgruntled and potentially hateful, and then try to "fix" things again in the next expansion by dismembering more of its previous/current identity.

Can't wait for the cycle to continue, or to (hopefully) be proven wrong!

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

DRG I'm not really sure what more they can really change with it.

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They could remove all jumping from their repertoire, since the animation locks are a problem, and just leave in the animations as special GPose specific emote/actions. Then they could make their rotation very straightforward and consolidate their combos into a single string of actions, thereby reducing button bloat, and remove positional requirements on the skills that still have them.

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Originally Posted by BiddyBatnana

DRG needs more Jumps.. never enough jumps !

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I'm surprised Elusive Jump and Repelling Shot don't do damage. :(

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Originally Posted by Bunnycake

I'm surprised Elusive Jump and Repelling Shot don't do damage. :(

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Repelling Shot used to. They took that out because people were using it to optimize damage I believe.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Repelling Shot used to. They took that out because people were using it to optimize damage I believe.

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That didn't stop a bard early EW in a ex2 trial from using it during a spread and yeeting himself onto me killing us both.

They used it on cooldown. I was sad.

Honestly feel like yoshi just hates anything healer.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Repelling Shot used to. They took that out because people were using it to optimize damage I believe.

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Farcically enough the expansion they did that they introduced RDM with displacement which was a much longer jumpback than repelling shot LOL

DRG and AST are my two favorite jobs. If they do those what they did to summoner, I'll probably leave. I don't want to be jerked around on a design yoyo like I was in WoW.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

DRG I'm not really sure what more they can really change with it, unless they plan on merging a few actions/traits together, and it overall feels fine and doesn't really bloat the controller yet.

AST...dear god there's a lot they can do to change button bloat, it's a pain on controller to play unless you're using a specific controller option, and even then it's pushing it.

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Yes it is and I have to macro a lot of ogcds together just to get them to fit nicely. It's ironic because if they implemented minor arcana EXACTLY like its SB version in EW, they could remove Undraw and Redraw and AST would still function similar or better than it currently is. 4.0 MA is basically a 1 sec recast mulligan to get rid of cards you don't want while still getting a beneficial effect (basically what Undraw and Redraw serves as albeit with worse effects). That means it's always live and they don't need to add Crown Play but rather have MA proc on a card drawn. You also won't need to rely on rng and Redraw the same card/seal because MA is always an attack or heal. But no, we need another 1 min ogcd, smh.

I think we are starting to see the effects of how the 1-2 min burst job design and not realizing that 4.0 had good ideas that just needed tweaking (instead of just gutting entirely), is creating job bloat issues. This will only increase with each expansion and my only fear is that it takes away resources from designing new jobs. I have ideas to fix AST and remove five of its buttons that are deemed redundant (two of which I already mentioned) and QoL.

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so we believe we should wait for an expansion release to make adjustments of that scale.

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Is this really gonna be a topic for the next year or so? May I suggest actually playing the game? :p

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Repelling Shot used to. They took that out because people were using it to optimize damage I believe.

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Same with low blow on DPS, used to do 100 potency but it basically nullified a mobs stun resistance ( you actually needed to stun certain mobs) because it started at 2s.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Is this really gonna be a topic for the next year or so? May I suggest actually playing the game? :p

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They could...I don't know, spend that time more on DRK and SCH. Like seriously, DRK needs some work, and "I don't know what more we can do with" SCH definitely needs a rework if they don't know what to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Spectrum

DRG and AST definitely needing their actions-per-minute fixed urgently.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

So no, they're far from "perfect" They suffer button bloat like a lot of DPS do currently.

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DRG is not a job that suffers from button bloat. It is actually one of the jobs with the least amount of actions in the hotbars, as laid out in this post: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5925792

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This game is supposed to last ten more years give or take, what can they feasibly do with DRG in the next expansion that won’t completely mess up a current system it has, merging litany and sight and giving stardiver some more potency won’t be enough for even one more expansion let alone 3 to 4, I don’t think anyone wants to give DRG the SMN treatment but it also shouldn’t fall into the RDM trap where every expansion basically amounts to “new potencies and another finisher on top of your other 4 finishers”

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This applies to almost every single job in the game, what can you add to GNB in the next expansion? It could get an extra gauge, but where do you place the new buttons? What about NIN, DRK? Even RPR is at the door of the button bloat issue because it has 6 actions that are exclusively used for AoE. It is AoE duplicates that bloats the jobs, of which DRG doesn't suffer from because the only difference between single and multi target scenarios is the weaponskill string employed.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Agree or disagree you can’t deny the merits of it, we can already see cracks forming in EW where systems stacked on systems bloats the job in strange ways, we had to turn our old gauge into a trait to make way for a new gauge that functionally does nothing, are we just going to continue to do that for 4 more expansions, something has to give and it’s going to give soon the way it’s going

As much as the established playerbase whines about it, slight tweaks around the edges and potency buffs don’t attract new people to a job

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And that’s kinda my point, EW didn’t really do anything with DRG, it was already close to what it currently is in ShB we just got some potency tweaks around the edge and a functionally pointless gauge extension

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The addition of scales and Wyrmwind Thrust has been extremely positive for DRG by allowing an interaction between GCDs and oGCDs and in fact should be expanded upon, as well as having a 3rd scale while maintaining the WWT cost of two. Therefore, I don't think statements about the new gauge doing "nothing" or being "pointless" hold value.

Turning BotD into a trait was necessary because DRG was the only job that lost everything if the gauge dropped (unlike BLM polyglot stacks, for example), which was not so uncommon wherever a cut scene was present (it happened even in casual situations such as treasure map dungeons). They could have chosen to keep it and allow the eyes not to fall, but without further interaction, the proper thing to do was to just make it permanent.

Another question is if we want to make the job more engaging, to which I agree. However, jobs should not be reworked just to make more people play them. How many people don't tackle BLM because they think it's hard? Let's not say here that DRG is so hard that many people opt not to play it when it's one of the simplest jobs in the game and actually needs an increase in skill ceiling (as well as a lower floor if so desired). Reworks should appeal to new, casual and veteran users alike.

And to make it clear: no one is saying that the job should not be reworked, but that it should be done at the end/beginning of an expansion and with player feedback taken into account. People are worried precisely because this has not been the case recently.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Correct the job is fine right now but there is functionally nothing that can be done to it in the future, the job is far too static and far too rigid, something has to give and it’s going to give soon, a job can’t stay in its current form forever no matter how much you like it

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Not all jobs have to be the same. DRG is unique by being the only melee DPS centered around oGCDs. As for the tight usage of abilities, NIN for example is quite similar in this regard, where things must be used on strict cooldown, but with added layers of complexity in specific areas, yet I don't see complaints about how rigidity can affect NIN. DRG is more complex positional-wise, for instance. Each job could expand on the areas that might be lacking, but let's not strip them of their uniqueness, as was the case for NIN recently due to the TA change.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

There's zero functional reason for High Jump and Mirage Dive to be a separate button.

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They should have never become the same button because they did it wrong: initially they made it change instantly, and when feedback was given, they slapped a 1s recast on MD, making double weaving HJ and MD extremely tight, as difficult as double weaving jumps before the animation lock was shortened. Either they reduce the recast to 0.5 or 0.8 (to match the animation lock of HJ) or they move MD back to its own button. Or better yet, allow the option to choose which to do. This rigidity with MD due to it being the same button can cause plenty of problems in encounters, with Dragonsong's Reprise being the most recent one.

MD has to stay as an independent button so that the ability is as flexible as possible.

I mostly agree with the rest of what you say though, but I do think the job is very well designed and flows smoothly. Sure, it can still get polished and refined, but if DRG needs a rework, then so do most jobs, starting with BLM. BLM is said to be very well designed, yet it has stayed mostly the same for several expansions, with mostly QoL and little things added each time, just like DRG. How come this job doesn't need a rework? Can it actually get something in 7.0 without taking anything away?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because you aren’t the only person who square is designing for, they need to attract more people to the job in the future and leaving every job in a static “well we can’t change anything so you get potency upgrades every expansion” is the absolute death keel for design creativity

In every single one of these threads nobody has ever explained to me a viable expansion to DRG’s combo they could put in that wouldn’t break the job, it’s always just “the jobs fine”, yes but fine isn’t going to cut the mustard because it has to be expanded upon every expansion, I’d rather a full rework than 10 years of potency upgrades or 10 years of “delete stardiver because it doesn’t fit, next expansion out stardiver by a different name back in” which is about the only options DRG has left right now

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Perhaps you haven't checked all the threads, because I have talked plenty about DRG in threads and posts such as this one: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...66#post6008566

You can search my post history in the forums, and you will see how I provide examples about what could be added to the job. I don't claim to be a theorycrafter with the absolute truth or best ideas, not at all, but I have spent a fair amount of time trying to provide feedback on the matter as a person that mains the job and plays it at higher level.

DRG still has room for additions for at least one more expansion. However, the same could be said for most jobs in the game, as I have already mentioned.

The job needs more interaction between GCDs and oGCDs, both within and between each category, as well as extra interaction with Life of the Dragon windows and GCDs to make the kit more cohesive. Another, albeit minor, problem to be addressed is the inherent slow drift associated to Geirskogul when exiting LotD due to it being unable to be queued.

Something they could do is allow the 5th positional hit in the combo to turn into a new weaponskill that gives some kind of resource similar to MNK Nadi: you choose which 5th to use (WT would turn into Drachenlance and FnC into Gnash and Lash only in that position, they stay the same when they're in 4th position), and each gives a different resource that when combined allow you to use a specific attack depending on the combination or give you some kind of buff that changes/enhances specific GCDs/oGCDs.

Another example would be to let Dragonfire Dive unlock a stronger attack (perhaps a GCD with range?) like Bunshin does with Phantom Kamaitachi.

What I really don't want is for LotD (and DRG in general) to be turned into Enshroud 2.0 or a RPR with oGCDs, because that's usually the direction that some suggestions go to. It is not in our interest to be RPR 2.0 and we should strive to preserve the job's uniqueness.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

They could...I don't know, spend that time more on DRK and SCH. Like seriously, DRK needs some work, and "I don't know what more we can do with" SCH definitely needs a rework if they don't know what to do with it.

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Isn't MCH still ping-reliant?

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Originally Posted by Aco505

What I really don't want is for LotD (and DRG in general) to be turned into Enshroud 2.0 or a RPR with oGCDs

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If the difference between "LotD" and "DRG-Enshroud" is, as you've posited in the thread you linked, whether the state ends after you've used the 3 Nostrand casts and Stardiver --and the only difference between that and the current version is that you don't lose the ability to queue the post-LotD Gierskogul-- I have to wonder why that would matter.

If LotD actually had some passive benefit over its duration or returned to a HW-BotD-like mechanic whereby you want to maintain it as long as would allow you to spend the absolute minimum amount of duration/resource on your final Nostrand cast, I could see why you'd want to protect LotD's duration, but... LotD has no benefits outside of access to Nostrand. (Which, as I mentioned there, would benefit DRG's flow, through the ability to queue the follow Geirskogul, if you just had LotD end after it has consumed all its benefits.)

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Another example would be to let Dragonfire Dive unlock a stronger attack (perhaps a GCD with range?) like Bunshin does with Phantom Kamaitachi.

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Not against this, but wouldn't this ultimately just feel like Mirage BiggerDragon? Is there a way this could be used, in DRG's wider context, to improve kit interaction, or add theme/cohesion to surrounding systems?

While secondary actions (B unlocked by A during A's CD, such that B requires no additional buttons) do improve button efficiency and increase APM, it would seem a waste to have no further benefit there.

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Something they could do is allow the 5th positional hit in the combo to turn into a new weaponskill that gives some kind of resource similar to MNK Nadi: you choose which 5th to use (WT would turn into Drachenlance and FnC into Gnash and Lash only in that position, they stay the same when they're in 4th position), and each gives a different resource that when combined allow you to use a specific attack depending on the combination or give you some kind of buff that changes/enhances specific GCDs/oGCDs.

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This sounds pretty damn neat. More animation variance, and finally they'd look like they deserve the added 5th position punch of Lance Mastery II.

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Originally Posted by hagare

you mean to how they actually summon now instead of a warlock? *shrug*

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You know it could've been its current design and not be as simple to play as connect four right

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

You know it could've been its current design and not be as simple to play as connect four right

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Choices cannot exceed a count of two.

And also can't be a cumulative result of multiple bimodal decisions.

/s

"We're not going to fix our god-awful 6.0 AST design until 2 years later because players rightfully raked us across the coals over our harebrained decision to remove Kaiten"

Hearing things like that really becomes the last straw.

Ah, there it is. It wouldn't be a thread about another job without it. Good riddance Kaiten. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Karen_Cerfrumos

"We're not going to fix our god-awful 6.0 AST design until 2 years later because players rightfully raked us across the coals over our harebrained decision to remove Kaiten"

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I preferred the 5.0 version of AST. Astrodyne preserves some of how the 5.0 version made me feel, but it's a worse version of it because it only affects my damage and without a Royal Road-type system like Lord/Lady to dump unwanted cards into, it doesn't feel as mentally-stimulating to play.

Whatever changes people do or don't want to AST, most people can probably agree it needs to be something other than what it is now. I think they should just go back to the 5.0 version and work from there with faster cast times and seeing what features from SB and HW could work in the new version of AST.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I preferred the 5.0 version of AST. Astrodyne preserves some of how the 5.0 version made me feel, but it's a worse version of it because it only affects my damage and without a Royal Road-type system like Lord/Lady to dump unwanted cards into, it doesn't feel as mentally-stimulating to play.

Whatever changes people do or don't want to AST, most people can probably agree it needs to be something other than what it is now. I think they should just go back to the 5.0 version and work from there with faster cast times and seeing what features from SB and HW could work in the new version of AST.

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They also absolutely need to do something about the difficulty gulf between console and M&K players, AST Is the only class that has it and it’s not a small difference either, this game was no designed for septuple weaves but console AST is expected to do them semi frequently to play optimally

5.0 AST is far better than 6.0 AST (though please dear god keep astrodyne over having seals affect divination) but both still struggle with the console problem because of the prevalence of single target buffs, honestly I think every cars needs to do damage and have a secondary effect, base card effect is single target but they bring back royal road and make RR make cards AOE, so you fish for the correct secondary effect with RR but you are always better off royal roading for the AOE damage than single targeting which removes the console disadvantage

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If the difference between "LotD" and "DRG-Enshroud" is, as you've posited in the thread you linked, whether the state ends after you've used the 3 Nostrand casts and Stardiver --and the only difference between that and the current version is that you don't lose the ability to queue the post-LotD Gierskogul-- I have to wonder why that would matter.

If LotD actually had some passive benefit over its duration or returned to a HW-BotD-like mechanic whereby you want to maintain it as long as would allow you to spend the absolute minimum amount of duration/resource on your final Nostrand cast, I could see why you'd want to protect LotD's duration, but... LotD has no benefits outside of access to Nostrand. (Which, as I mentioned there, would benefit DRG's flow, through the ability to queue the follow Geirskogul, if you just had LotD end after it has consumed all its benefits.)

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Having LotD end right after using the 3rd NAS is Enshroud 2.0 and that is bad because instead of working with LotD's timer in some way, this would just make it RPR 2.0. I can easily picture us having the ability to pool 4 eyes or the like for a double LotD in a row. At that moment, you wonder what's the difference between jobs besides the animations.

GSK being unqueueable could be fixed by removing its cooldown, but allowing it to be used only with two eyes. Something would have to be given to DRG so that the opener is not missing a button, but that could ease rigidity (as well as a longer Litany), since the only oGCD that would require hard use on cooldown would be HJ. As long as they increase the skill ceiling somewhere else, I'd be fine with this.

Another option would be to have some use to the LotD timer in a similar way to Enochian or old GSK in Heavensward, where it consumed the BotD timer that you built with positionals.

However, yes, LotD should have more interaction with the rest of the kit. It could buff our GCDs, give them a different animation, whatever. I want our kit to evolve, not turn into a mechanic or gauge that is almost a copy of another job, and RPR tends to be the main comparison.

These are just some ideas, I'm sure there could be better ones, but anything that makes LotD/DRG a copy of Enshroud/RPR or any other job is going to reduce the uniqueness of DRG.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Not against this, but wouldn't this ultimately just feel like Mirage BiggerDragon? Is there a way this could be used, in DRG's wider context, to improve kit interaction, or add theme/cohesion to surrounding systems?

While secondary actions (B unlocked by A during A's CD, such that B requires no additional buttons) do improve button efficiency and increase APM, it would seem a waste to have no further benefit there.

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Just an idea, could be something else like, for example, an oGCD combo: Dragonfire Dive increases the potency of/modifies a specific oGCD. It could also grant two scales, or if following my suggestion of turning Life Surge into a weaponskill a la Sonic Break/Soul Slice with two charges that grant a scale, DFD could return one or two of these charges, increasing the use of this action during bursts and creating more GCD/oGCD interaction.

My point is that DFD feels good aesthetically but weak otherwise for a 120s capstone ability. It has to hit harder and/or have a role of its own.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

AST has massive APM problems on controller though, without forcing target macros into the system (which still gives AST higher APM on controller) then AST has such disgusting APM it blows right past NIN into a class of its own, this game really isn’t designed for septuple weaves

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giving cards on controller was fine in shb. it only became awful in ew because of the charges on draw and the removal of sleeve draw

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Isn't MCH still ping-reliant?

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A lot of jobs are sadly, due to double weaves and weaving during 1.5s GCD recasts (gods is Enshroud annoying on RPR due to that).

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Whatever changes people do or don't want to AST, most people can probably agree it needs to be something other than what it is now. I think they should just go back to the 5.0 version and work from there with faster cast times and seeing what features from SB and HW could work in the new version of AST.

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All you're saying here is to revert AST back to SB, and not every healer wants that for AST. SB AST was even more APM heavy back then, and that's what continues to be problem with AST today. They will never revert it back to that salad. It was a mess.

While AST does have issues, this will be yet another rework for this bane of a job, and that's what pisses me off more than anything. Meanwhile, both SCH and WHM play nearly identical to their ARR versions with a lot less management of their kits.

Ah well. Nature really never saw fit or much need to evolve dragonflies, and perhaps that's the devs approach to the original healers. They feel they are perfect.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Having LotD end right after using the 3rd NAS is Enshroud 2.0 and that is bad because instead of working with LotD's timer in some way, this would just make it RPR 2.0.

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You'd still need it to be held for Stardiver (i.e., until one has consumed ALL the benefits of LotD) regardless, but so long as those benefits are more than just the 3 NAS and 1 Stardiver, then sure, having a fixed duration would make sense. Otherwise, though, it's just an awkward obfuscation.

Personally, I'd probably most enjoy returning to the HW BotD design there.

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My point is that DFD feels good aesthetically but weak otherwise for a 120s capstone ability. It has to hit harder and/or have a role of its own.

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It's not particularly weak for a level 50 skill, though, which does indeed give good reason to simply augment it later via a trait or follow-up skill.

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my suggestion of turning Life Surge into a weaponskill

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Personally, I much prefer that Life Surge is not something we hit on CD and has had, depending on SkS tiers, different optimal attachments by which to get the most bonus value per average minute out of the skill, so I'm not fond of that idea, especially as I don't think DRG's APM is remotely excessive and replacing oGCDs with GCDs would reduce APM.

I'd be cool with LS granting a bonus Scale, especially if Scales were increased only to a max of 3 such that one still has to be mindful of the scales to be generated within a LS-using combo, but I like it being a slightly less straightforward oGCD, and would prefer its CD be tuned to provide it more options in practice across viable SkS tiers.

That said, because normal LS may want to be used later in the opener than DFD, having DFD grant a charge of LS might be a bit awkward. On the other hand, if DFD were empowered by Scale-granting hits or Dragon weaponskills or the like, up to a point, and thus already had reason to be delayed, it'd have less conflict, but DFD would also feel less responsive, etc., etc., so it may be better just to leave burstyjob's burstyskill without prior attachments/constraints, be they direct or indirect.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

All you're saying here is to revert AST back to SB, and not every healer wants that for AST. SB AST was even more APM heavy back then, and that's what continues to be problem with AST today. They will never revert it back to that salad. It was a mess.

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I actually said it should be reverted to 5.0. It was APM heavy in 5.0 until the frequency of card use was reduced, but it was fun being that APM heavy as well.

This news was honestly the best news of this expansion.
People are happy for island sanctuary, I'm happy that for now two of the few fun jobs left aren't getting ruined.

Seriously, I had to drop RDM this expansion after 2expansions maining it, now remove also my new dps main and my healer main, and all I'll ever do again in this game is tanking. I was tryng to get better at ninja to replace the dps slot, but really it's too much for me. And I can't imagine anymore playing a healer who has nothing to do but spam 1 button when heals are not needed (which in normal content is pretty often).

There are already countless simplified/low apm jobs, this expansion more got gutted that way and the new jobs they keep adding aren't exactly very exciting either. Just focus on all those and leave the few left that are different be, if you can't play them. Not every single job needs to be for everybody.

If anything I hear MCH could use a nice rework...it's not doing exactly well and it's still a finger-breaking class for really low pings. And I'm not sure how many actually enjoy it now. And yeah SCH is..whatever.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

If anything I hear MCH could use a nice rework...it's not doing exactly well and it's still a finger-breaking class for really low pings. And I'm not sure how many actually enjoy it now. And yeah SCH is..whatever.

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I enjoy MCH a lot. It's one of the DPS I currently play. It's simple but fun.

To me it seems Drg is fine as is. (Though I have noticed the DoT falls off before I can reapply it though admittedly I may just be ass xD).
Peak Ast to me was SB Ast. I was never one of those balance fishers either.

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Originally Posted by Spectrum

It seems weird to me that they're basing these postponements on the feedback of the reworks they gave jobs that didn't necessarily need them, despite DRG and AST definitely needing their actions-per-minute fixed urgently. I literally hurt my finger playing DRG on controller.

Thoughts?

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I've mained DRG for eight years on controller. It's perfect the way it is. The only "fixing" it needs for actions-per-minute is that it needs more. It is one of the high APM classes in the game. If you don't like it, don't play it. Don't come into my main and demand that it change because it doesn't fit your preferred playstyle.

These are my thoughts. DRG doesn't need huge changes. An evolution toward even more jumping and more OGCDS would be appreciated, but a complete rework is unwelcome.

Having 7 individual buttons on your melee rotation is pretty stupid let's be honest, I don't mind that it's 7 skills and 7 presses but spreading it across 7 buttons is asinine low QOL and bad UI design. They just need to compress the skills a bit into like 7 skills on 3-4 buttons while still keeping that 2-path cycle style of flow. The rest is fine (although I wouldn't cry if Life Surge went walkabout, it's not Kaiten, its not identity defining, its just a random extra button).

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Originally Posted by LogosDiablo

I've mained DRG for eight years on controller. It's perfect the way it is. The only "fixing" it needs for actions-per-minute is that it needs more. It is one of the high APM classes in the game. If you don't like it, don't play it. Don't come into my main and demand that it change because it doesn't fit your preferred playstyle.

These are my thoughts. DRG doesn't need huge changes. An evolution toward even more jumping and more OGCDS would be appreciated, but a complete rework is unwelcome.

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How dare you gatekeep DRG from others. The class isn't yours alone!

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Originally Posted by LogosDiablo

These are my thoughts. DRG doesn't need huge changes. An evolution toward even more jumping and more OGCDS would be appreciated, but a complete rework is unwelcome.

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I share the sentiment on DRG not needing a full rework. A partial rework would be fine. Though I suspect they're going to want to combine Chaotic Spring and Wheeling Thrust into a single move, as well as Heavens' Thrust and Fang and Claw into a single move.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Though I suspect they're going to want to combine Chaotic Spring and Wheeling Thrust into a single move, as well as Heavens' Thrust and Fang and Claw into a single move.

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Why this suspicion, out of curiosity? Until Shadowbringers, DRG's combo was increasing by 1 step per expansion.

Why do you think they'd suddenly go back on that now, when they seem to have no interest in rotational nuance by which to make use of shorter combos, anyways?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

People don't like change.

Just look at the forums any time something new comes up "ugh, you should have just kept doing it the old way". But also "ugh, thry never try anything new"

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No, there's a good reason DRGs are terrified of their job getting ""reworked"" out of nowhere. Most changes the devs have made to jobs since ShB has been a net negative for the game and people took notice of that.
Who wants their favorite job to be ruined so they have a reason to "fix" it 2 years later... Maybe. Because actually they've demonstrated they probably won't even bother doing that, looking at what they did to healers. Ever since SE completely gutted them, people have drowned the genuine concerns of people who didn't want to spam 1111112111111 with "they just made a new base so they can build on it later, your job is only going to feel horrible for a couple years, bear with it". Heres the truth: its never going to happen, they never mentioned anything like that, they just fucked up.

With the precedent they set, players have every reason to be wary about the way this game's job design is headed and dismissing all the valid criticism brought up with "muh people dont like change" is extremely disingenuous.

i mean people love the job as it is now. new players on the job isnt positiv if it pushes the old players away. it would just be a shift... and making people unhappy in the process

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why this suspicion, out of curiosity? Until Shadowbringers, DRG's combo was increasing by 1 step per expansion.

Why do you think they'd suddenly go back on that now, when they seem to have no interest in rotational nuance by which to make use of shorter combos, anyways?

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They can combine the button without combining the skill, that way you can keep the more complex rotation but just have less bindings which is the main goal.

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Originally Posted by Zaniel

They can combine the button without combining the skill, that way you can keep the more complex rotation but just have less bindings which is the main goal.

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Okay, but... That is true for all combos and combo buttons. Combo buttons in general require the greater number among combo leads and combo finishers to maintain complete control over them.

There are only 3 remotely viable combo actions: start, continue, and swap. In practice, or without accounting for very unlikely mistakes, there are only two competitive options: start and continue.

DRG can therefore have virtually all of its combo-related depth with just three buttons:

1. True - Vorpal - Full - Fang - Wheel
2. True - Bowel - Chaos - Wheel - Fang
3. Doom - Sonic - Tempest

With that, the only affordance you lose is the ability to reset your AoE combo, for which there has never been a use case.

Moreover, if you were to consolidate WT and F&C, you'd generally do that to/with each other, as they're not available anyways until that point and only in sequential use.