Rescue needs to go away.

As I wrote in the identical and still-active thread about Rescue in the healer forums…

Don’t stand in avoidable attacks that will one-shot you and I won’t have to Rescue you from them; it’s that simple really.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I like it. I'm a himbo so I appreciate when a healer can pull me to safety.

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I want you to know I snorted some water up my nose from laughing at this. Bless you, Theo. My nostrils are burning because of you.

On topic though: you can pry Rescue from my cold dead hands.

It's already got an insanely long cooldown, so it can hardly be used effectively to troll. Most deaths via Rescue are often unintentional due to poor timing of it or just good ol' server ticks screwing both Rescuer and Rescuee up. I'd rather have them improve it enough so that it doesn't result in accidental murders so often, than take a useful tool away entirely.

Healers are already gutted enough as is. Let's not take away even more things just because some people get mad about bad/troll-y Rescue use.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I doubt it has every been used for its intended purposes and has only been used to kill other players...which is funny the first few times it has happened but after a while it is just annoying.

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i dunno. rescue saves my ass sometimes.

Why do I get his distinct feeling in my everything that I am going to lose my fricken Rescue soon. Can non healer mains stop wigging out and baby raging because they were troll rescued once? Just report then move on before we lose yet another unique skill on our brain dead boring role. Many thanks!

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Originally Posted by Renalt

So people say if we get rid of rescue then we need a replacement. Instead of replacing it I say we just alter how it works. Instead of being able to physically move someone I say it just puts an "all or nothing" shield on them that lasts for only a few seconds...enough to RESCUE them from a mechanic. No damage...no debuff...they are immune for a few short seconds. The shield has no HP amount really...if they take 10 damage...the shield is gone...if 100k damage...the shield is gone. Have pretty much same recharge rate as a Benediction or something.

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No. Just no. This sounds dreadfully fricken boring.. Oh look! Another button that functions identically to my fifteen other heal/shield/mit buttons! Yatta! You guys did it! Huzza no more fun for you.

Am not repeating what I did in the other Rescue thread (yes.. there was other one already in the healer sub forum). Use this skill most frequently when I heal as do the friends. You may not use frequently or see it utilized frequently but I use it all the darn time. From yeeting others into the doom cleanse pads in WoD to swapping places using Icarus + Rescue.

I have been rescued out of something I couldn't get out of maybe 2 times.

I have been "rescued" when already safe and INTO AOE's, dropping platforms, and one kill mechanics more than I can count.


It's a nice idea, but I should have a say whether I want people to move me or not.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I like it. I'm a himbo so I appreciate when a healer can pull me to safety.

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I'm gonna start calling myself a himbo too.

It's perfect.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I doubt it has every been used for its intended purposes and has only been used to kill other players...which is funny the first few times it has happened but after a while it is just annoying.

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I'm more interested in how you can tell what those healer's thinking. Rescue has always been janky at best in its function. The built-in delay is what usually kills players outside misplaced Rescues (which really doesn't matter at that point because it's actually the target's fault for standing in bad and not getting out in time. Not even Rescue can save them beside giving the bad player a silver platter to blame the Healer for their death). This reason alone creates a higher than average skill ceiling for properly used Rescue, thus more susceptible to mistakes at the hands of inexperienced healers.

Also as a healer, I can kill off other players much better by intentionally not healing them and pretend to be tunnel visioning, misclicking, falling asleep, etc etc etc. Should we remove healers' healing spells and give it to everybody else now? (I mean they already sort of do that.. to an extent :p)

I feel like half the time I get rescued by people it's because they're unaware that I have movement abilities to get out of that mechanic that looks like I'm in danger of being hit by; greeding casts with BLM's aetherial manipulation being the most common cause.

I do like using it to send a message if people are obviously clueless about how to handle a certain mechanic, though.

I have it on an obscure spot of my castbars because it's so clunky to use, given the delay... and usually I'm way too busy trying to save my own arse to react in time for others.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I have been rescued out of something I couldn't get out of maybe 2 times.

I have been "rescued" when already safe and INTO AOE's, dropping platforms, and one kill mechanics more than I can count.

It's a nice idea, but I should have a say whether I want people to move me or not.

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You should have just said this. It is clearly the true problem you have with the skill. Don't weaken your argument with pretext.

The majority of healers who use Rescue are aware of the mechanics in the encounter. If you get rescued unexpectedly (which should be almost always), it's because you are in a bad spot. IOW, the healer is more aware of what is going on than you are.

Rescue needs a much shorter cooldown.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I do like using it to send a message if people are obviously clueless about how to handle a certain mechanic, though.

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P3N in their early inception says yes.

The number of tanks that I had to rescue to the edge of arena just so they don’t stack the bird adds together were plenty enough.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You should have just said this. It is clearly the true problem you have with the skill. Don't weaken your argument with pretext.

The majority of healers who use Rescue are aware of the mechanics in the encounter. If you get rescued unexpectedly (which should be almost always), it's because you are in a bad spot. IOW, the healer is more aware of what is going on than you are.

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How does giving the example that the majority of the time I am rescued, It is either done maliciously, ignorantly, or unneeded weaken the argument for saying I don't want OTHER people deciding where I stand or at least I'd like the option to refuse? If I wanted other people to play the game for me I wouldn't play and if I wanted to play a griefing game I'd play one with worldwide PVP.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Rescue needs a much shorter cooldown.

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This please, I have been saved twice this week thanks to a clutch rescue. Don't hate the game, hate the player~!

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

How does giving the example that the majority of the time I am rescued, It is either done maliciously, ignorantly, or unneeded weaken the argument for saying I don't want OTHER people deciding where I stand or at least I'd like the option to refuse? If I wanted other people to play the game for me I wouldn't play and if I wanted to play a griefing game I'd play one with worldwide PVP.

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You have most strong feelings about this skill and cannot help but sense there is a story under the surface somewhere about why.

Seriously though a single tank can more easily grief with provoke or shirk then one healer abusing rescue. No one is "playing the game for you" by attempting to utilize tools given to them however misguided some uses may be. Have seen one perhaps two improper rescues during entire time playing and my luck is fricken terrible. Have seen plenty of the tanks spinning bosses into the team, especially Titania.

So do I need to make a thread titled 'Warriors Overpower needs to be a cone' to get someone to listen? I remember people complaining about fluid aura and how useless it was, and now its gone. Esuna people just yeet off of their bar, so thats probably going to go too because playing the game is too hard and brain no work good so we no allowed to have nice things.

If rescue is removed I will be extremely annoyed that this among all the things will be listened to. While we are at it how about we remove provoke too and shirk because those could be used to troll by bad tanks. Maybe remove ver raise, clemency, and anything else that gives a heal on any other class other than healer because people will waste time not dpsing to heal themselves. Maybe remove all movement abilities because that also can be used to troll by placing aoe's on top of other team mates. Maybe remove tanks entirely because they can kill the party by spinning the boss around like a top because that is always a fun experience.

What I am getting at, is no matter what you do someone will find a way to troll regardless of what skills any class has. If you apply this crap logic to literally everything we would be playing a game with padded walls and baby bumpers because people can not behave. Maybe remove team play entirely because alliance A is all full of drunk idiots and they keep wiping to atmos refusing to get on the pads.

Please stop making dumb threads that the devs will actually listen for some dumb reason. Is the reason most likely Kaiten is taken, dots are taken, aoe's changed because one person got trolled once in a dungeon so no one can use a skill that is legitimately good and fun to use. Fluid aura was amazing before it could push mobs off of ledges, than it just had a bind effect, now it is gone because people didn't use it I guess? Yes people who do not play the game and use every ability. If they removed heavy and bind from bard I would be angry as well. I use those abilities, I know many people who use abilities at their disposal to actually interact with the game in a non griefing way. Leave things alone, yeah?

You should be able to use rescue in a party in the over world and it should not be a slide but similar to swtor, an up an over, in there it reduced aggro, sadly that is not really a problem in here because tanks are apparently not even trusted enough to hold their own aggro without a stance. I have never once been griefed by a rescue but have been made to tank for an alliance raid many times as a dancer. So problem solved just remove all classes but dps. Make mobs hit less give everyone a heal and make them all tanking so no one even needs to think about playing the game. Heck maybe just let the game play itself too while your at it. It is already too hard to watch netflix and play a second game on the side, at the same time, on a second monitor.

I think this is the third thread revolving around rescue. Do not fret, I will make a bunch of threads calling for them to remove tanks because they can grief. If we are going to ruin the game why not just go full scorched earth.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

You should be able to use rescue in a party in the over world and it should not be a slide but similar to swtor, an up an over

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I'm now reminded of the fact that a certain NPC in one of the role quests rescues out you of a mechanic in a manner that is far quicker and more practical (Basically the same as NIN's Shukuchi) then the awkward delayed slide the player version utilizes.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm now reminded of the fact that a certain NPC in one of the role quests rescues out you of a mechanic in a manner that is far quicker and more practical (Basically the same as NIN's Shukuchi) then the awkward delayed slide the player version utilizes.

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The one thing I do dislike about rescue is it will be super delayed sometimes, so it looks like you are a big jerk who rescued someone after they got blasted by an aoe. Though I am usually already targetting them so can toss a heal on them before I send them back into war.

I think Urianger uses it too in a cutscene and it is way cooler than it is for us, I think he rescues Y'shtola my memory is bad about this I may need to find a clip somewhere to refresh but I remember at the time being sad it wasn't that cool.

Edit: Oh god the scene is a very bad example Urianger uses it to grab the bad guy so Thancred can cut him down >.< At least it was an up and over, over a chasm.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

You have most strong feelings about this skill and cannot help but sense there is a story under the surface somewhere about why.

Seriously though a single tank can more easily grief with provoke or shirk then one healer abusing rescue. No one is "playing the game for you" by attempting to utilize tools given to them however misguided some uses may be. Have seen one perhaps two improper rescues during entire time playing and my luck is fricken terrible. Have seen plenty of the tanks spinning bosses into the team, especially Titania.

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I just told you the history of why I dislike the skill. People abuse it and I have no say in that. A couple times it was helpful, the rest of the time which is also the MAJORITY of the time it has been used either badly, incorrectly, or maliciously.

If I could think of a way to stop people from being jerks or being ignorant then we'd try that, but my personal opinion is give them the least amount of opportunities to do so.


You can see some examples in this thread of people thinking they know better than the person and then using rescue to put them where they want them. Sometimes it saves someone.. BUT maybe that person had another plan though? Maybe they were ready to deal with it with a movement skill or teleport? Maybe that person had a cooldown they were willing to burn to mitigate? It's apparent that some people who use the skill use it to play (however briefly) for other people, because they think that person is playing "wrong".

I get healing is boring AF for some. I get that REMOVING something that has utility would be bad. I would like others to get that while the skill can be useful and helpful, not everyone enjoys that "help" and sometimes it can be downright detrimental.

Nah let's not take more tools from healers and make them even more boring, yeah?

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

The one thing I do dislike about rescue is it will be super delayed sometimes, so it looks like you are a big jerk who rescued someone after they got blasted by an aoe. I think Urianger uses it too in a cutscene and it is way cooler than it is for us, I think he rescues Y'shtola my memory is bad about this I may need to find a clip somewhere to refresh but I remember at the time being sad it wasn't that cool.

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Fricken Swtor rescue maaahhhh! Instant - threat reduction - defensive mitigation - annnnnnd proper physics. Up and over no problemo! Behind a wall or onto ledges tis no problem. Feel like this community would have mental breakdown if we had Swtor rescue though. Too.. expressive. Not sterile enough. Givith them that endless white void room from the Matrix, that should make them the happy.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I get healing is boring AF for some. I get that REMOVING something that has utility would be bad. I would like others to get that while the skill can be useful and helpful, not everyone enjoys that "help" and sometimes it can be downright detrimental.

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Well, yup? Anytime you introduce unique skills such as these you run into this risk. Plenty of already existing skills that can be abused maliciously that I do not feel should be altered or removed. Tis annoying when it occurs but the least obtrusive fix is a barren wasteland devoid of skill expression. I will take my troll rescues and poor use of expedient as trade for Square potentially adding in more skills similar to these two. Square will not opt for elegant solution as they never do. They will use hammer, the only tool they know of and yeeeeet boy Rescue out of the game. If we are the lucky they may throw us another pity ogcd healy button that makes the HP bars go up.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Fricken Swtor rescue maaahhhh! Instant - threat reduction - defensive mitigation - annnnnnd proper physics. Up and over no problemo! Behind a wall or onto ledges tis no problem. Feel like this community would have mental breakdown if we had Swtor rescue though. Too.. expressive. Not sterile enough. Givith them that endless white void room from the Matrix, that should make them the happy.

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That wont make them happy because than it would be TOO WHITE! It would need to be white but not too white maybe with a small bit of those sand granules they put into some paints so it has the illusion of unique. So the people with no personality selling apartments could feel like they did something new with their samey white painted walls.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

BUT maybe that person had another plan though? Maybe they were ready to deal with it with a movement skill or teleport? Maybe that person had a cooldown they were willing to burn to mitigate? It's apparent that some people who use the skill use it to play (however briefly) for other people, because they think that person is playing "wrong".

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I actually agree that Rescue should not be used as the default. The NIN might be planning to Shukuchi, the BLM might be planning to Aetherial Manipulation, etc. (Or heck, the person might actually be expecting a Rescue. I have, on very rare occasions, had someone ask me to rescue them into the right spot to save time during a mechanic; if you explicitly ask, sure, I'll do it starting with the first pull. Susano has an excellent Rescue-cheese spot, for instance.)

But if someone dies to a mechanic repeatedly, forcing me to repeatedly burn MP -- and potentially time in order to slow-rez them -- across multiple pulls... I admit after a certain point, I will probably cease to care what their plan is. Because whatever it is, clearly it isn't working.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

But if someone dies to a mechanic repeatedly, forcing me to repeatedly burn MP -- and potentially time in order to slow-rez them -- across multiple pulls... I admit after a certain point, I will probably cease to care what their plan is. Because whatever it is, clearly it isn't working.

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Think on this perhaps. If given the opportunity and swap of roles, do you want someone else (however "correct" it may be) to do the right move for you? Honestly and truly do you want someone else to grab control from you and MAKE you do the right thing? I remember I was part of another discussion of how much people were disgusted that someone else could possibly make their beloved character appear differently on a screen they would never see (glamour "normalization", interesting discussion) ... but they're perfectly fine here letting someone make gameplay decisions for them.

I agree with the earlier suggestion there be a toggle to allow or disallow rescue (and other movements not initiated by the player themselves or mechanics, barring PVP of course). Then choice is restored and I have no further qualm.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

How does giving the example that the majority of the time I am rescued, It is either done maliciously, ignorantly, or unneeded weaken the argument for saying I don't want OTHER people deciding where I stand or at least I'd like the option to refuse? If I wanted other people to play the game for me I wouldn't play and if I wanted to play a griefing game I'd play one with worldwide PVP.

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You're doing it again. Like quite literally the exact same thing I just mentioned. You are pretexting your true feelings [argument] about the skill with what is anecdotal evidence at best. What you truly dislike about Rescue is that another player can change your position against your will.

If you were to just say, "I dislike recue because I don't want another player to dictate my position for me."

That is fine. Really fine. It's a strong argument all on its own, and leaves little room for rebuttal because you're just stating an opinion. When you add - or worse - pretext that argument with a statement that invites an air of skepticism due to validity, then peeps like me come in and say BS, and contest your argument with anecdotal evidence of our own. IOW, it weakens your argument. I don't find your claim to be true in even the slightest, and that is only because I have not encountered it myself. Like ever. I have never witnessed a healer using Rescue maliciously unless friends were trolling each other in braindead content. In content that matters, not at all. Even among friends.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Think on this perhaps. If given the opportunity and swap of roles, do you want someone else (however "correct" it may be) to do the right move for you? Honestly and truly do you want someone else to grab control from you and MAKE you do the right thing? I remember I was part of another discussion of how much people were disgusted that someone else could possibly make their beloved character appear differently on a screen they would never see (glamour "normalization", interesting discussion) ... but they're perfectly fine here letting someone make gameplay decisions for them.

I agree with the earlier suggestion there be a toggle to allow or disallow rescue (and other movements not initiated by the player themselves or mechanics, barring PVP of course). Then choice is restored and I have no further qualm.

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By that logic healers shouldn't heal at all, they are forcing heals onto the poor other players without consent! And what with the ranged dps buff, thanks i want to decide on my own how fast i go and how much damage i take!

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You're doing it again. Like quite literally the exact same thing I just mentioned. You are pretexting your true feelings [argument] about the skill with what is anecdotal evidence at best. What you truly dislike about Rescue is that another player can change your position against your will.

If you were to just say, "I dislike recue because I don't want another player to dictate my position for me."

That is fine. Really fine. It's a strong argument all on its own, and leaves little room for rebuttal because you're just stating an opinion. When you add - or worse - pretext that argument with a statement that invites an air of skepticism due to validity, then peeps like me come in and say BS, and contest your argument with anecdotal evidence of our own. IOW, it weakens your argument. I don't find your claim to be true in even the slightest, and that is only because I have not encountered it myself. Like ever. I have never witnessed a healer using Rescue maliciously unless friends were trolling each other in braindead content. In content that matters, not at all. Even among friends.

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So you're going to tell me what I really mean now and how to express myself? ... the irony is absolutely staggering.


And we're going to add on "it never happens because I've never seen it". Terrific.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

By that logic healers shouldn't heal at all, they are forcing heals onto the poor other players without consent! And what with the ranged dps buff, thanks i want to decide on my own how fast i go and how much damage i take!

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When you ask a healer to join you.. what do you think you're asking for?

When you queue with a DPS.. what is their role description?


While you possibly could be posing an actual logical leap you made in your mind where you incorrectly correlated "I don't want other people to play for me or affect my inputted decisions" with "I don't want other people to affect the game I'm playing in any way at all" it SOUNDS like you're just spouting irrational gobbledygook to make a perfectly reasonable ask into a ridiculous one.

Anyone who has read my posts on my experiences playing with my wife knows why, when I am a healer, Rescue is crucial for me.

No rescue = no rescue fails on Lulu's streamer highlights!

They should keep rescue in the game!

:p



Cheers

No thanks. It can be both helpful and resourceful when utilized properly: preventing incoming damage or death while saving tools and MP in the process, impromptu or planned placement adjustments, helping out that tank who kept facing each boss at the alliances during the World of Darkness, etc.

The Heroes' Gauntlet: Spectral Necromancer. My partner goes to LB a second before Pain Mire is telegraphed. We both go silent. I manage to time my Rescue right after the LB and right before the bleed puddles drop. Celebration. That Rescue remains among our fondest memories of playing XIV together.

Some may abuse rescue, other may just have poor timing, but couldn't the same be said for Shirk? The ability itself doesn't appear to be the issue so much as its misuse/server-related timing issues thought to be intentional. But those of us utilizing it properly enjoy having Rescue at our disposal (even with a horrendously long cooldown).

I'm still coming to terms with Kaiten; let's not add this one to the list.

I think the best fix for this is a setting in a game that displays next to your name of who can and can not be rescued. Now no one will lose the skill they actually use to save peoples lives, I have been saved so many times from this, and people who have issues with being rescued without consent can feel better knowing no one will touch them with their dirty rescue ever again.

This also can be used to troll though.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Think on this perhaps. If given the opportunity and swap of roles, do you want someone else (however "correct" it may be) to do the right move for you? Honestly and truly do you want someone else to grab control from you and MAKE you do the right thing?

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By queuing into group content, I am implicitly agreeing to be a team player, and use the toolkit that SQEX has provided me to do my part to get everyone through the content we're now in. That includes things like "equipping your job stone", "turning on tank stance", "not just DPS'ing and refusing to heal anyone", and so on. Rescue is a part of that toolkit; I do not use it often, because its timing is "weird" at best, and can often just result in pulling someone to you after it is too late, and also people do not like it. But it is there to be be used, and in those few cases where I think it is merited, yes, I will use it.

And if I'm the one being Rescued? No, I don't like it; it's jarring and can feel embarrassing. But if they Rescued me to keep me alive and keep things moving smoothly, I personally also consider it justified.

Despite this, as I have said several times, if Rescue causes this much bitterness, then fine, take it out in the name of community harmony. But then give healers something in return. Something unique to healers, ideally. Preferably some way to potentially avoid needing to pay 2400 and slow-rez someone, which is what Rescue can be.

(In contrast, what you may recall I strongly objected to in the glamour thread you reference was the idea that people who didn't like the glamour being changed—and potentially having screenshots of their character in gear that they didn't feel represented them—should be mollified by having it be that if someone turns off seeing anyone else's glamour it turns everyone into the default version of their race/gender when you first enter the character creator; that way, it wasn't their character. Which I get was intended to be the "see, everyone wins!" solution. However, those default characters, generally speaking, tend to be very fair-skinned. And glamour notwithstanding, I found—and still find—the suggestion that a game add a toggle to make dark-skinned characters functionally "disappear" to be one with some implications I'd define as "maybe a little problematic", whether or not those implications were the intention. I consider that a wildly different scenario than "someone moved my character for me" in a whole bunch of different ways. However, that is not really relevant to this thread.)

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I agree with the earlier suggestion there be a toggle to allow or disallow rescue (and other movements not initiated by the player themselves or mechanics, barring PVP of course). Then choice is restored and I have no further qualm.

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Again: this is worse than just removing Rescue, because now you are either wasting time trying to Rescue someone who has it disabled—and this game has problems enough with server tick and weird timings, given how often Surecast or Arm's Length will just ghost on people—or just ensuring that healers never use Rescue at all (because they have no guarantee it'll work).

If it is a choice between some sort of convoluted toggle or getting rid of it, please just get rid of it and give healers some other party utility, rather than removing the ability to actually use it but pretending it's still here.

There is nothing healers can do that cannot be done by at least one non-healer, save snatching someone from the jaws of death. Red Mage and Summoner can rez, and (in a pinch) heal, if not terribly well. Gunbreaker can heal effectively enough to keep themselves and a black mage alive through the boss fights in The Dead Ends; I know this, because I have done it. (Heart of Corundum is a hell of a thing...) Bard can Esuna. Etc.

If Rescue is a point of this much bitterness, then perhaps it should be taken out. But then genuinely, actually remove it, and give healers something both unique and useful in its stead. Don't gut it, prop the corpse up in a chair, then point at it and go "Look! You don't need something to replace Rescue, Rescue's still here!"

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

This also can be used to troll though.

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The first to disable rescue will be the ones who need rescuing the most. If this is ever implemented (it will not be) shall reference my post when it comes true because I fricken just know it.

Square is not known for their elegant solutions when approaching jobs though or well.. much of the anything. When presented with the option to code complex system for allowing or blocking spell effects cast by other players or yeet boy they will select yeet boy every. single. time.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

If Rescue is a point of this much bitterness, then perhaps it should be taken out. But then genuinely, actually remove it, and give healers something both unique and useful in its stead. Don't gut it, prop the corpse up in a chair, then point at it and go "Look! You don't need something to replace Rescue, Rescue's still here!"

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Aye aye! Much agreement but have no faith at'all that Square will replace it with something equally versatile. The closest ability we have on healers to even remotely being unique is expedient and that has already been "nerfed" once already. It will quickly be swapped for *generic make hp bar go up or reduce damage button X* and.. I really really hope this does not occur. It may be my final I quit moment.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

If Rescue is a point of this much bitterness, then perhaps it should be taken out. But then genuinely, actually remove it, and give healers something both unique and useful in its stead. Don't gut it, prop the corpse up in a chair, then point at it and go "Look! You don't need something to replace Rescue, Rescue's still here!"

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I am still waiting on sleep to be given to healers, the chad sleep that sleeps more than just one mob. Also I am still extremely sad about fluid aura. 'no one used it so we just deleted it and here you go healers here is a water based skill at 90 lol xxxx deee'. I used that darn thing solo palace of the dead. There is barely already any crowd control and they take one skill away. It always makes me so salty. You saying this reminded me of how salty I am of it being removed. It was also great early levels when solo ing stuff in the over world.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Aye aye! Much agreement but have no faith at'all that Square will replace it with something equally versatile. The closest ability we have on healers to even remotely being unique is expedient and that has already been "nerfed" once already. It will quickly be swapped for *generic make hp bar go up or reduce damage button X* and.. I really really hope this does not occur. It may be my final I quit moment.

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This is a bit off topic, but the nerf makes me upset due to it not being overpowered. I feel this might be why many classes get nerfs, but when people find unique ways to use a skill or play a class well, it gets nerfed because one person or many people found out a way to boost their numbers by a small amount. I wont mention one thing that I discovered for fear they will nerf it, but there is something silly that can be utilized on every class to boost numbers insubstantially. If the devs realized this happens than they will nerf everything because one small group of people's numbers were slightly bigger so everyone must suffer.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

By queuing into group content, I am implicitly agreeing to be a team player, and use the toolkit that SQEX has provided me to do my part to get everyone through the content we're now in. That includes things like "equipping your job stone", "turning on tank stance", "not just DPS'ing and refusing to heal anyone", and so on. Rescue is a part of that toolkit; I do not use it often, because its timing is "weird" at best, and can often just result in pulling someone to you after it is too late, and also people do not like it. But it is there to be be used, and in those few cases where I think it is merited, yes, I will use it.

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I'm not specifically talking about rescue, I'm talking about just making you do something you don't want to because THEY think it's the right thing. It could be as simple as popping your buff everyone cooldown for you, or changing your target to the "right" one. Would you be OK with that?

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Despite this, as I have said several times, if Rescue causes this much bitterness, then fine, take it out in the name of community harmony. But then give healers something in return. Something unique to healers, ideally. Preferably some way to potentially avoid needing to pay 2400 and slow-rez someone, which is what Rescue can be.

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Kind of a separate argument really though. I think I have mentioned in other threads how healers probably need other things to do and their current rotations and responsibilities are garbo. Sure.. give them something else to do. I wouldn't call it "bitterness" though. I don't encounter it often enough to even really think about it much. But when you mention it to me, the negative occasions are far more numerous than the positives for me. I won't care if it's still in the game for the rest of my life, but since we're talking about it, I don't like several aspects of it.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

(In contrast, what you may recall I strongly objected to in the glamour thread you reference was the idea that people who didn't like the glamour being changed—and potentially having screenshots of their character in gear that they didn't feel represented them—should be mollified by having it be that if someone turns off seeing anyone else's glamour it turns everyone into the default version of their race/gender when you first enter the character creator; that way, it wasn't their character. Which I get was intended to be the "see, everyone wins!" solution. However, those default characters, generally speaking, tend to be very fair-skinned. And glamour notwithstanding, I found—and still find—the suggestion that a game add a toggle to make dark-skinned characters functionally "disappear" to be one with some implications I'd define as "maybe a little problematic", whether or not those implications were the intention. I consider that a wildly different scenario than "someone moved my character for me" in a whole bunch of different ways. However, that is not really relevant to this thread.)

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barring starting that entire conversation in another thread which can get wildly out of control I will avoid any counter statements. Just going to say that the idea that certain people were adamant about not removing their choices in one way but seem to ignore how choice is removed in this one was an interesting contrast to me.

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Originally Posted by whitemoonflower

Some may abuse rescue, other may just have poor timing, but couldn't the same be said for Shirk?

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To be fair, it is exceptionally difficult (albeit not impossible) to troll with Shirk now given how bonkers tank aggro is.

If this were still the bygone era of aggro management being a thing... then yes, actually, I do think if a toggle for "make myself immune to Rescue" were added to character settings, there absolutely would be justification for "make myself immune to Shirk" as well. But anything else aside—and despite my plainly evident belief that Rescue is useful—I don't think they're equivalent situations any longer, because if you do want to troll using Rescue, it is certainly easier to do so than with Shirk given present-day aggro mechanics.

I personally have seen Rescue used to troll very, very rarely that I can recall; far less than I've seen it used correctly. However, I also grant that since, as a healer main, I'm a healer in like a solid... ~68% or whatever of all content I run, my sample size may be skewed; much content only has one healer, and if that healer is me, there is perhaps less opportunity for such trolling to be witnessed by me since, y'know, I'm not going to use it to troll.

(Though I do suspect that if people tallied it up, though, they'd find there are fewer instances of trolling than they think. Not because they're exaggerating or deliberately overstating it, but because humans are extremely bad with regards to perceived frequency of something being remotely the same as the actual frequency; there are a lot of studies that demonstrate this.)

However, whether or not the actual frequency of trolling with Rescue is as high as some perceive it to be, I do think it is fairly indisputable that Rescue has more potential for trolling than many abilities do.

And I suspect that most of us in this thread can agree on that one point, even if nothing else. (Including possibly the color of the sky.)

I use it responsibly but it probably does need some adjustment. A lot of the trolling I see is pulling people through something they would have been safe from. So an instant teleport instead of a movement would probably help.

I can also see where a toggle would have helped in the past when I was on dps and had a healer who kept pulling me out of soaking meteors on Scathach, causing us to take the hit. And I've had healers pull me out of safe areas just to be in the one they're at before and caused me to die. But I'm not sure if a toggle would make the skill useless as people decide they don't want to be Rescued at all.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

To be fair, it is exceptionally difficult (albeit not impossible) to troll with Shirk now given how bonkers tank aggro is.

If this were still the bygone era of aggro management being a thing... then yes, actually, I do think if a toggle for "make myself immune to Rescue" were added to character settings, there absolutely would be justification for "make myself immune to Shirk" as well. But anything else aside—and despite my plainly evident belief that Rescue is useful—I don't think they're equivalent situations any longer, because if you do want to troll using Rescue, it is certainly easier to do so than with Shirk given present-day aggro mechanics.

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I understand where you're coming from, but I was only comparing the potential to be misused. Just as someone can Rescue a person into chaos, Shirk can be used spitefully. It might not happen as often, but the potential remains. Completely removing either ability would still be excessive.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I personally have seen Rescue used to troll very, very rarely that I can recall; far less than I've seen it used correctly. However, I also grant that since, as a healer main, I'm a healer in like a solid... ~68% or whatever of all content I run, my sample size may be skewed; much content only has one healer, and if that healer is me, there is perhaps less opportunity for such trolling to be witnessed by me since, y'know, I'm not going to use it to troll.

(Though I do suspect that if people tallied it up, though, they'd find there are fewer instances of trolling than they think. Not because they're exaggerating or deliberately overstating it, but because humans are extremely bad with regards to perceived frequency of something being remotely the same as the actual frequency; there are a lot of studies that demonstrate this.)

However, whether or not the actual frequency of trolling with Rescue is as high as some perceive it to be, I do think it is fairly indisputable that Rescue has more potential for trolling than many abilities do.

And I suspect that most of us in this thread can agree on that one point, even if nothing else. (Including possibly the color of the sky.)

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I can't recall an incident where it wasn't people who knew each other messing around. Failed Rescue attempts (and even some successful ones) may be perceived differently than originally intended, but I still don't believe the answer is to remove Recue or "opt in/out" of it.

I've saved many people using rescue. Its a handy tool to yoink people that are to worried about dps rather then mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I'm not specifically talking about rescue, I'm talking about just making you do something you don't want to because THEY think it's the right thing. It could be as simple as popping your buff everyone cooldown for you, or changing your target to the "right" one. Would you be OK with that?

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I will note that while if you fail to pop your raid buff, or target the wrong thing, the party is inconvenienced, it differs slightly because if you stand in the mechanic and die, the healer is the one who gets sent the bill. ("That'll be 2400 MP and 8 seconds of your time, please. Payable on receipt.")

You ask whether it would be acceptable for someone else to use your cooldown for you, the implication being that it is not, and would be jarring. But I think, in a lot of ways, that's where the problem comes in: when someone stands in a mechanic and dies, they're kind of doing that to the healer. By standing in the bad and getting vaporized, they're more or less forcing the healer to use a cooldown (Swiftcast) or take 8s of their time, and spend a solid quarter of their max MP.

People say they want a toggle that prevents someone from dictating what they do in a fight; Rescue kind of is that toggle... just for the healer, by virtue of being the only option that can be employed to save people in some scenarios.

And I think that's where the problem comes in; some folks are vehemently against Rescue because they say it's dictating what they do, and they don't want that done. And feeling that people don't want Rescue able to be blocked is thus removing their choice. But flip it around, and it's a bit like someone is saying "I should be able to dictate you spend a quarter of your MP and 8s of your time whenever I want, and I don't think you should be able to say otherwise."

And I suspect that given that it's going to be extremely difficult for anyone to come to an agreement, because both sides of the argument are going to view it as the other one dictating what they can do. (Worse, they're both kind of correct.) And because Rescue already exists, it's not "should this be added to the game" (I suspect people might be more inclined to agree on "no" if that were the question), but rather "should we strip away this one tool healers have", which is going to be a lot harder of a sell. At least to the healers.

I've noted I agree that Rescue is a jarring experience. I agree I don't like having it done to me. And while I do think as things currently stand there are justified uses for it, I actually do not think it's an ideal solution for the problem it tries to solve; it is definitely not the tool I would have chosen to provide were I the game designer. However, it is also unfortunately literally the only tool SQEX has provided for this, and moreover it's doing double duty as "this is the one unique thing healers have". And gutting the functionality and just calling it good, with no other changes, only makes a flawed tool actively worse.

But I don't know that I think there's much else I can say on Rescue beyond that; I do feel like I've pretty much said all I can.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Kind of a separate argument really though. I think I have mentioned in other threads how healers probably need other things to do and their current rotations and responsibilities are garbo. Sure.. give them something else to do. I wouldn't call it "bitterness" though. I don't encounter it often enough to even really think about it much. But when you mention it to me, the negative occasions are far more numerous than the positives for me. I won't care if it's still in the game for the rest of my life, but since we're talking about it, I don't like several aspects of it.

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I think that given the way these threads go, people may easily come across as being more vehement than they might actually mean to. You said you don't encounter Rescue often enough to think about it much, but I admit that wasn't the impression I got from this thread. Text is an imperfect medium for conveying context, alas.

Shifting the context in which I read your posts, I do think that in a lot of ways—Rescue being flawed, etc.—we're more in agreement than we might think. (I mean, I like to think we tend to both be fairly rational in most threads where we cross paths. So...)

I suspect where we differ is that I think that Rescue does have justified use in some scenarios—at least given the realities of how this game is currently set up—and that conditionally disabling Rescue does more harm than good. If things have to change, I firmly believe it would be a better solution to come up with a replacement that serves at least something in the same neighborhood as Rescue's purpose (i.e., "give me some option to try to make sure the player doesn't die and leave me to foot the bill") rather than basically turning Rescue into a taxidermy version of itself with all the organs removed.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

barring starting that entire conversation in another thread which can get wildly out of control I will avoid any counter statements. Just going to say that the idea that certain people were adamant about not removing their choices in one way but seem to ignore how choice is removed in this one was an interesting contrast to me.

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Appropriately enough given the above note about "how strongly you feel about things" being sometimes difficult to discern from text, I will note that while I do enjoy the glamour game, I don't personally terribly care much whether someone sees my glamour or not. So you may have read more vehemence into my posts there than I intended to be taken from them. (What vehemence was there was less "you should be forced to see my glamour" and choice-related, and more "some of these people saying the ability to disable glamour is justified because they like the idea of being able to make men in wedding dresses stop existing is something I find kind of alarming from a sociological perspective.")

Which, to be fair, may be as much my fault as anything else, as I do not tend towards an entirely dispassionate writing style; my 'narrative voice' tends either towards "many gestures while speaking fast" or "extremely dry and mildly snarky" without a lot of other settings.

I mention this not to sidetrack, but because I confess I may have been operating under a similar misinterpretation of how vehemently you felt in this thread; I was definitely reading the posts with the impression you felt very strongly about the topic and did have some bitterness. So if that was an incorrect reading... then mea culpa, and I shall otherwise leave it at that.