WHM LB still charges too fast.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

- MNK which is either 12K unguardable damage + stun or 24K + stun, both accompanied by an atrocious animation delay that can easily get you killed.

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If you're using Meteodrive without Pressure Pointing first, you're playing PvP monk wrong

AST seems slightly stronger in higher rated CC matches and I lately see more SGE and AST than WHM. The WHM LB loses a lot of its power once people started to spread out more instead walking in a big pile of 5 for no reason :p Imp is the strongest part of WHM

As a Bard with the slowest LB gen for a mediocre 10% damage buff to party that depends on line of sight (and them even being alive) - yeah, nah, White Mage's LB charges ridiculously fast. I've been considering going White Mage because it just seems like a better Bard all around with healing to boot. It'd be nice to be able to deal ranged damage without having to depend on being far away from the target to boot.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

WHM literally gets its LB every engagement. It charges WAY TOO FAST for how much utility it has. This isn't a change that should be waiting for a next big patch, its something that needs to be hotfixed immediately. Either significantly reduce the charge time or remove the stun from it.

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WHM has almost nothing besides sheep and its LB. You do realize that, right? Cure 2 heals for a lot but it has a cast time (meaning it can and will be LOS'd by the person you are trying to heal as they try not to die to people attacking them.) Seraph Strike requires you to put yourself in a vulnerable position, and they nerfed Misery's damage for some stupid reason. Aquaveil would be fantastic in a game that didn't have low tickrate servers... but we do, and as a result it tends to be very cumbersome to use. It should probably be treated like BRD's Paean, and provide an anti-CC buff along with the bubble, and keep the bonus to the bubble potency if it dispels an effect on cast.

WHM LB is fine. Pay attention to enemy party list, and don't stack up when the WHM has LB or is about to get it, or plan to Guard as you see them moving into position to fire the laser.

Honestly, WHM is kind of bad at high skill level right now because of the nerfs it got. It already struggled to compete and relied heavily on the 3 sec stun to try and guarantee a kill on a specific target (high skill players, as a rule of thumb, do not stack up and let you blast half the team with your laser unless you had a DRK, SMN, etc to set it up for you) and its DPS is the weakest of any healer's. AST and SCH have powerful buffs, and SGE is pretty much just a caster DPS with a few healing abilities mixed in.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

AST seems slightly stronger in higher rated CC matches and I lately see more SGE and AST than WHM. The WHM LB loses a lot of its power once people started to spread out more instead walking in a big pile of 5 for no reason :p Imp is the strongest part of WHM

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AST SCH are dramatically better than WHM at high skill. Both classes substantially shift the numbers in favor of your team with buffs and debuffs and both classes have an extremely strong LB. 120 sec sounds like a lot, but it's really not, especially since it accelerates based on activity. In high skill games, it's very common to get LB long before the fight in mid is really concluded.

WHM's only impactful ability outside of their LB is imping people, and while it's quite good... I wouldn't take it over the kits that AST SCH have. Hell, AST throwing a 3 sec Bind on someone is often a kill - if you cleanse the Bind you'll probably live, but now you can't cleanse the stun about to hit you a few seconds later. If you don't cleanse the Bind, you're going to die (you can also Guard, but no Guard later means you can be burst down.) SCH is a pretty strong counter to any tank reliant on self-healing for sustain (which is all of them, except GNB since they're typically in DPS junction) with Mummification, and is generally just really great at bleeding MP from the enemy team and wearing them down.

Seraph Strike is pretty good, but AST has the best single-target healing in the game with double casting (moderate heal plus weak regen followed by moderate heal plus weak shield, and they can do it back to back if they really need to focus on keeping someone alive) and SCH can constantly spread 4k or 6k shields to their entire party on a lower cooldown than Seraph Strike's Protect buff. And spreading Biolytic among enemy DPS is pretty much the same as 10% vuln down buff.

SGE is really more of a DPS than a healer/support, so they're not really interchangeable here. But their DPS is quite a lot higher than any other healer's. People whined about WHM being able to do 18k+13k+6.6k in their LB combo, but SGE can just casually Phlegma Phlegma Pneuma for 10k+10k+12k plus Haima buff on a 30 sec rotation (15 sec per Phlegma charge and 30 sec for Pneuma) so... yeah...

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

WHM has almost nothing besides sheep and its LB.

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Citation Needed.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Cure 2 heals for a lot but it has a cast time (meaning it can and will be LOS'd by the person you are trying to heal as they try not to die to people attacking them.)

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Aside from Fire Map I've literally never had this problem.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Seraph Strike requires you to put yourself in a vulnerable position

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And as a risk/reward system acting as it should, gives you AOE PROTECT and then an instant cast AOE heal. If it didn't put you in a vulnerable position it'd be stupidly busted (more than it already kinda is).

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

they nerfed Misery's damage for some stupid reason.

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They "nerfed" this because it's a free damage button that when combined with the LB meant LB > Misery could just one shot people every 60seconds. That's not good design and there's a million "stupid reasons" to not let that happen again.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Aquaveil would be fantastic in a game that didn't have low tickrate servers...

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Having a second tool that not only cures ailments but provides a huge shield IS affected by servers but 95% of classes don't even have this secondary option so this is a moot point. You think Divine Veil is bad, try relying ONLY on purify. Lol. Servers being bad doesn't make having a second button to remedy ailments any less good. It instantly puts you ahead of a ton of classes.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

WHM LB is fine.

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Oh okay I guess we were concerned for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Pay attention to enemy party list, and don't stack up when the WHM has LB or is about to get it, or plan to Guard as you see them moving into position to fire the laser.

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This is a subterranean take. "Just pay attention to LB charging every 60 seconds forehead." In a mode revolving around pushing/battling a specific point and moving it you're saying "Well just play defense and watch out every 60seconds constantly and you'll be fine." I can see a DRG LB go off and plan accordingly. I can even see chiten debuff and plan accordingly. There is zero warning for the LB until you're already stunned and what are you supposed to do in over time just hang back and watch them push? Or Guard and watch yourself get nuked by the enemy team just to get lb'd after guard goes off anyways? Or to get polymorphed and then lb'd anyways? What part of this is "fine"?

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Honestly, WHM is kind of bad at high skill level right now because of the nerfs it got.

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That explains why I see so many AST/SGE/SCH combos at higher ranks. Wait. No I don't.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

That explains why I see so many AST/SGE/SCH combos at higher ranks. Wait. No I don't.

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AST and SCH are far more common at high skill than WHM, because they are more flexible and less prone to being countered by the enemy team just not being... well, bad at the game.

Do note that tier has nothing to do with skill.

I rarely see AST or SCH in crystal....if anything the only time I see them is when there's two healers on a team and the other healer is ALWAYS a WHM, just like 90% of my matches that have tank/healer combos are damn near always war and whm. I'm usually thrown off when I see a DRK or a GNB.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I rarely see AST or SCH in crystal....if anything the only time I see them is when there's two healers on a team and the other healer is ALWAYS a WHM, just like 90% of my matches that have tank/healer combos are damn near always war and whm. I'm usually thrown off when I see a DRK or a GNB.

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I play ast and i see a lot of sch and sages.
Sch work very well on agressive teams with their dots being extra pressure on everybody in a big radius that cannot be ignored.
Sch puts out insane smounts of damage. Its just over time so it doesn‘t seem like it.

I wish i wouldnt be punished with wars+whm combos in my team. Do they work? Sure, but whm legit does only have a lot of healing over time with lb.
Warriors can be really nice if they play disruptors but most wars play like initiators and just keep on dying a lot because war op so war can yeet into 5 people without team haha.
The few good wars i saw were always disruping group fights etc… was nice

But since that rarely happens, i like good plss so much more. There are like 4 i REALLY like, even some drks and even gnb.

Cant say the same for wars.

Also also i have a small compliation of whm not hitting people with their lb because not stacking means they cant do much.

I know its still a little fast, but the more i see whms struggle to do much OTHER thsn trying to hit as many people as possible with lb and it not working… the more fun i have with macrocosmos :)

I like going against whms because they CANT cancel anything ast does (even lb, many tried, even frame 1 doesnt work) so what are they gonna do? Laser me?
Oh no i died to laser+misery with under half hp!
I can do that too and so can sage without lb easily, dunno man…

What SHOULD be changed is the morph tickrate to be the same as stuns. And make it cleansable.

Btw case in point:
https://i.imgur.com/zEJhLqM.png
Censored names because dunno if allowed, was really fun and yeah, was a draw
Put lines in for a little more clarity to see who did what lol

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I rarely see AST or SCH in crystal....if anything the only time I see them is when there's two healers on a team and the other healer is ALWAYS a WHM, just like 90% of my matches that have tank/healer combos are damn near always war and whm. I'm usually thrown off when I see a DRK or a GNB.

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Maybe it's different on Aether? On Crystal, you are almost guaranteed to see SCH or AST in any game with healers, and WHM is honestly tied with SGE for second most common. I get more SCH AST teams (playing SCH primarily) than I do any other combo. Hell, sometimes I get 3-healer teams. If it's AST SCH WHM we might as well pack it in and AFK in spawn because we have no pressure - but if it's SGE? Baby, we got a stew going.

WHM doesn't suck. But it is *substantially* weaker against high skill players. People that know not to stack up, that keep an eye on enemy party list for buffs/LB gauge, that know not to overextend and put themselves in a position where sheep (before or after another CC effect) could result in them dying. I think that you ride WHM to easy wins as you're going through the lower tiers, where low skill players are more common, but as you get into Diamond and Crystal, you should consider flexing to the other healers as all three of them perform better against high skill players than does WHM.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

That explains why I see so many AST/SGE/SCH combos at higher ranks. Wait. No I don't.

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I see a lot of other healers, i see more ASTS (i am one myself, thats besides the point) than WHMS at this point. Almost all matches have a sage, too.
Here and there, there's Schs too.

The thing is.
You like how whm plays, which is completely fair to like. I liked it too until i tried ast and have a blast with it and then, yesterday accidentally queued as whm and never felt so helpless without trying to laser as many people as possible.

Or:
You have heard whm is op.
Now, everybody who heard it plays it. To very varying results because JUST playing whm doesnt make you op or any useful. A bad whm is quite literally a detriment to the team more so than other classes.
May sound mean, but i have seen... whms not even having a lot of healing done JUST yesterday (can even provide screens if not believed lmao).
WHM is op tho right? So it going badly can't be whms fault since they can do everything and anything right?

It's the same for warriors.

Given, i have seen many people IN CRYSTAL allergic to recup or anything, they just take the death and i hate it.
There's a lot of problems with not being able to rank down is that the higher ranks will be polluted by people that got a lucky streak but that's neither here or there...
As Gserpent said, tier and rank has nothing to do with skill, i have seen many things where i wonder if they even pressed skills at ALL.

What i mean is:
WHM being called op makes more people play whm than the people that like playing whm (more power to them, there's not only people playing whm because its op. Heck, i thought i would even with nerfs until i tried something else and HAPPEN TO LIKE IT MORE WITH MY PLAYSTYLE!) and that is why there are so many around.
There's good ones and there's the ones that think whm will carry them.
If only people would look at the result screen and see that they basically don't help with being bad but... as said, neither here or there.

Have you guys even TRIED playing whm? If not, maybe you should. Knowing how something works makes it way easier to know the weaknesses of things.
Thats genuine advice. Give it honest tries and see how it works out and then you know that not being in a straight line makes whms lb pretty useless.

WHM's LB being so weak against high skill players, and the fact that WHM has virtually nothing going for it besides its LB and its 25 sec sheep cooldown, is what made me switch off and play other healers. It didn't help that they nerfed Misery for some stupid reason. Skilled players are going to be watching the enemy party list. They'll know when you have or are about to have LB and they will either immediately all swap to you and burst you into the dirt when you run out to try and position the laser, or they will simply never stack together until you've been forced to laser one or maybe two people, at which point your contribution to the game is pretty much over until your next LB.

Like, the difference between WHM and the other three healers is absurd. I am *always* doing something on AST and SCH. I'm constantly moving, constantly buffing or healing or adding damage. Honestly, I feel like WHM's Glare potency should be bumped to like 5500 if they're going to nerf Misery, just so that WHM gets *something* going for itself between LBs. Cure 2 having a cast time is also a huge problem. 12k per cast is pretty nice, but other healers are getting in the 8k range for an instant GCD, which is IMO a hell of a lot better.

Pumping 2 Cure 2's into someone is strong. But even then, AST can beat WHM if they really want to - each Benefic is 4000 potency (up to 8000 as they are lowered to 50% or less) plus 1000 regen. Double Casting it is another 4000-8000 potency plus another 4000 shield, and you can burn both Double Casts if you really need to. AST has the best single target healing output in the game, by a huge margin, and it's all instant. Hell, after the (unneeded) Macrocosmos buff, AST also has the option to nova for 28k damage every 30 sec before buffs (plus Heavy, Bind, and stacking Microcosmos buff.)

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

the fact that WHM has virtually nothing going for it besides its LB and its 25 sec sheep cooldown.
-"What? You wanted MORE?" Seriously? You got group dmg mitigation and strong group heal on 20s, two strong solo heals on 15s, Mini Foul on 15s, Targetable purify with 12k shield on 20s.

25 sec sheep cooldown
-Should even be 50s for how strong and pretty much a death sentence with precise execution.

It didn't help that they nerfed Misery for some stupid reason.
-Mini Foul (which is BLM LB mind you) every 15s from 30y away (which is also farther) 'Nuff said.

They will either immediately all swap to you and burst you into the dirt when you run out to try and position the laser
-Im very curious how i can/have to live with 25/5y and 7 gcds for LB while you cannot with 40/40y instant cast+stun for LB, which is far beyond any gap closer and cover many many corridors and the Crystal, with the same recharge rate.

They will simply never stack together
-Which means they wont be able to kill your teammates either unless they are all ranged. Also, the scattered opponent will easily get jumped on by 2 of your teammates. If someone is trying to help, BOOM! Laser now hit two of them creating a very advantageous situation for your team. Even more so with dmg, healing and regen buffs with 30y for 15s.

Until you've been forced to laser one or maybe two people
-Which is most likely kill one or both of them if your teammates are there with you creating a very advantageous situation for your team. Even more so with dmg, healing and regen buffs with 30y for 15s.

At which point your contribution to the game is pretty much over until your next LB.
-Group dmg mitigation and strong group heal on 20s, two strong solo heals on 15s, Mini Foul on 15s, Targetable purify with 12k shield on 20s.

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If anything, Glare at 5K is already balanced. Also do not forget, WHM also have tons of range advantage with 4 of the spells being 30y and LB being 40y.

I don't have problem with bad WHMs, i always have problems with the good ones.

Go do that for the other three healers and you'll see how far short WHM is.

In fact, I found WHM to be extremely overloaded compared to AST which is conditional and micro heavy, SGE which lack range on burst (made up with 2 charges), healing capability, party buff and CC, and SCH which lack burst and CC.
None of the other three have non-purifiable hard CC, have no targetable purify, no hard CC aka stun, and for some reason, no instant AoE healing and group regen.
WHM lacks.... DoT....

Hmmm... they might have to nerf WHM more than just LB i guess.....

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

Play against good sages or Asts, or even sch, they hurt way more than a whm will.

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Against AST? Yeah it hurts, but far less trouble some and much more manageable with no hard CC. SGE? No hard CC, SCH? No hard CC.
Good AST is scary, yes, but a lot more fun to play against. The clips you presented are very interesting cases of WHMs using their LB ineffectively, but I digress.
SCH and SGE can do very high overall DMG, so does Fire Mage, and I played both of them before, very much expected I would say.

Its not the problem with how much overall dmg a job can deal, its about how fast a job can deal the dmg, especially on top of hard CCs which also prevent guard and healing.

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Originally Posted by Lymberey

If anything, Glare at 5K is already balanced. Also do not forget, WHM also have tons of range advantage with 4 of the spells being 30y and LB being 40y.

I don't have problem with bad WHMs, i always have problems with the good ones.

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May i interest you in AST being able to do 28k damage every 30 seconds?
16k every 15 seconds that also binds (won me games twice now)
You'd also like Balance, 10% for everybody hit for 15 secs?
May i interest you in spire, that boosts LB by quite a lot.
Heck, even ewer is very good in prolonged fights for the crystal if people use recup.

Good asts are scary as all hell because they nuke you.
Don't try to run away, macrocosmos has a 20 yalm range around me :)

I am kind of sad that i erase videos later and i don't pay that much attention anymore, but here are 3 prime examples of whms lb doing basically... nothing:
https://imgur.com/a/GVKXNqQ <- this is a folder
I can't censore names and nobody is talked bad about, please don't bully poor whms, this is just a showcase. And it shows nicely how good whms HAVE to line themself up very well for people not making out with each other or lining up perfectly.

I on the other hand, have a lot of little clips of gravity+macrocomos being very disrupting and getting people who think they can run away, it's super nice.

And you have a problem with good whms? Play against good sages or Asts, or even sch, they hurt way more than a whm will. And it's not their problem that they're good with the class they play.

Do you want me to bring out my psychopath spacedust hachacha gifs that don't even show all the carnage it can do easier? It does 12k damage after all by itself.

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Edit: Uh... h-how? Ast does so much damage and provides so much support in different ways
And sch has CC. In their dots that goes through guard. It gets sleeped on.

Please check my screenshots of an all healer vs all healer (featuring monks) and look how much damages sage and schs can do.

And what exactly is so overbloated? Protect? Sheep? As said, sheep should be purifyable and have the same tickrate as stun, that is true.
Whats SO overbloated? I read that so often and i kind of don't understand.
All they can do is good healing over time? I mean good for them.
It's 100% not damage what they can do a lot of tho.

Sheep is fine exactly as it is. People dying to it are just whining because they got punished for being out of position. They need to revert the nerf to Misery and probably make Aquaveil function like Warden's Paean, where it still provides an effect shield even if cast ahead of time. Cleansing is very hard with high GCD and very low tickrate and it makes Aquaveil pretty terrible unless you're leaving tons of empty GCDs to be ready to snipe something (and hope it's the right thing!)

Because right now, AST is undeniably the best healer and SCH is very close behind it. SGE is just a DPS with the wrong hue.

2 of the 3 maps consist of mostly being wide open...there is no "out of position" when getting poly'd in the middle of a fight. People are "whining" because you can't f'ing purge it.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

2 of the 3 maps consist of mostly being wide open...there is no "out of position" when getting poly'd in the middle of a fight. People are "whining" because you can't f'ing purge it.

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You say this, and yet I literally never have this issue. Positioning isn't just "hide behind wall."

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

You say this, and yet I literally never have this issue. Positioning isn't just "hide behind wall."

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I play mostly ranged job, I don't have that problem either.

Melee will always be "out of position" for 40y 30y 25y range spells, might as well remove all of them from the game. Its not like WHM has 0y 5y 5y for range.

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Originally Posted by Lymberey

I play mostly ranged job, I don't have that problem either.

Melee will always be "out of position" for 40y 30y 25y range spells, might as well remove all of them from the game. Its not like WHM has 0y 5y 5y for range.

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Sheep has standard 25yd range. Misery and Aquaveil have a longer than average 30yd range but considering the low impact of both spells, it's not a big deal.

Melee generally have a higher skill demand than ranged classes simply because you have to be more aware of counter-initiation on you. Bad players rush in, get sheeped, and die like chumps and then rage at the game instead of realizing they just got punished for playing dumb. Good melee don't overextend and play conservatively if they know the WHM hasn't sheeped anyone yet, if they know the enemy has multiple stuns and binds that haven't been used yet.

Given the *wide* range of player skill in Crystal, you can't guarantee what your opponents are like unless you've fought them repeatedly before. ME UNGA BUNGA tends to get punished severely and can cost your team the game if your opponents are competent. But that's exactly what a *lot* of players even in Crystal and the top 100 do, cost their team the games (or at least require their team to hard-carry them for most of the game), and then rage about "omg WHM OP" instead of just admitting that they did something really stupid and got what they deserved.

Not an uncommon problem in multiplayer games. People are either unwilling to engage in self-reflection or simply never learned how. It's why they remain low skill players.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Sheep has standard 25yd range. - Bad players rush in, get sheeped, and die like chumps and then rage at the game instead of realizing they just got punished for playing dumb. -Good melee don't overextend and play conservatively if they know the WHM hasn't sheeped anyone yet,

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Getting sheeped from 25y away is not overextending. Aren't you the same guy who complained about getting jumped on with 40/40y range advantage in positioning? Now you suggest melees to play conservatively until someone got sheeped and focused to death? I'm lost for words.

Oh wait..... i think i just understood what you are doing....

Well played sir, Well played.

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Originally Posted by Lymberey

Getting sheeped from 25y away is not overextending. Aren't you the same guy who complained about getting jumped on with 40/40y range advantage in positioning? Now you suggest melees to play conservatively until someone got sheeped and focused to death? I'm lost for words.

Oh wait..... i think i just understood what you are doing....

Well played sir, Well played.

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LOL... anyways

The only thing i consider OP are Rdms dots and i will stand by that point.


Other jank should be checked out like how open dancers are for their lb and the need to attack to get full duration for it. Which is stupid.
And Morph should be pruifyable.

Otherwise, my point still stands. 1o1 a whm is a stalemate for pretty much every class other than 100% sam and rdm. Nins are also very annoying monks can end it with LB too.
I enjoy whms trying to 1o1 me, morphing me, seraphstriking me, misery... while i just continue to hit their team in a stack.

Sheep alone doesn't kill so he is kind of right by that. If you are in a 1v3+, chances are that you are dead without the sheep. Getting sheeped while people already are hitting you just means you die faster. I die a lot to being morphed if i am out of guard and recups and heals, tbh? And then it doesnt make a single difference if i was or wasn't morphed.
It does need the team to focus YOU. The best way to use sheep IS indeed when the enemies are already getting hit by pretty much your whole team, that's smart usage of it too.

As said, play whm, give it a fair try, try to line up your lbs as best as possible, hit as many people with it as you can. Try to get the most out of morphing. It all doesn't JUST happen just because you use them.
You have a problem with good whms and i dont understand how that's a complaint of them being op?
I have a problem with monks/nins/reapers/sams/etc. that don't LEAVE ME ALONE FOR THE WHOLE MATCH!!!!!!!!!!! They are playing good, they are stopping me from actively supporting my team. Even tho i HATE it... SO MUCH.

Contrary to popular belief, the lb DOES need a lot of planning. You can just let it rip and hit one person. Which is the most useless point to use it.
Or you can line yourself up very well and hit as many people as possible with it. Preferably if your team is fighting many enemies already, so its extra chipdamage.

I can tell you that hitting many people can happen a lot when people cuddle, so it's like "haha see it's op right" even tho these people play wrong in the first place.
But if they are all over the place, which happens a lot more, how will you use it?
I just don't see the op in a 40 yalm long and like 5 yalms wide thing anymore(same with war, just don't stack lmao) after playing ast... Its situational as hell and people NEED to realize this first.
Whm LB is only good if you hit many people with it to be disruptive. Don't stack and it won't be a problem. You get hit anyways? Congrats, they are targeting YOU or you were lining up too much.

People being good with the class they play doesn't make said class op. Many people use WHM so badly that it's laughable just because it was deemed op day 3 of a new thing where nobody understood anything.
I played enough splatoont hat i know how to play tower control, but many people don't use recup as often as they should, are always on the crystal, think healers have unlimited heals, guard way too late, run into enemies for no reason, don't let healers drive the crystal while you bully further ahead and weave BACK IF YOU ARE OUTNUMBERED AND NEED HEALS.
You 100% should use pots when you are out of mp and are able to run away. Many people just keep going with no mp and then die. It's insane.

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

WHM is op tho right? So it going badly can't be whms fault since they can do everything and anything right?.

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This is a bizarre otherworldly reply to a conversation about the individual kits.

I can pull top damage as SGE that doesn't mean SGE has the best kit.

An exception doesn't disprove the rule, nor do bad players change the kit.

I have played WHM plenty and it's a million times easier to self sustain and group sustain while also providing a good stream of background support/utility.

Should we keep using anecdotal evidence only when it suits our own opinions or shall we go back to discussing the kit itself and the LB like we're supposed to?

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

But if they are all over the place, which happens a lot more, how will you use it?

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Usually everytime it's up if it's something that can help secure a kill on even one person. That's the whole reason this thread exists. There is zero risk and all the reward for using this LB in every situation imaginable. 1 person or 5 people it doesn't matter, the LB is still good and becuase it comes up so fast there's no risk to just using it to kill or grief until it comes back up.

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

People being good with the class they play doesn't make said class op. Many people use WHM so badly that it's laughable just because it was deemed op day 3 of a new thing where nobody understood anything.

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If two people are heading towards a destination and one is driving an automatic and one is driving a manual, the latter of which has never driven manual before, yes they'll fail despite driving the same model of car.

The false equivalence here is ignoring a 40y laser beam that can stun an entire group especially when in overtime you HAVE to be grouped up or risk losing the crystal.

So for every class if we can point out players who suck with it like you did with the WHM trying to "1o1 you" that means there is no problem with the kits then yeah? So doesn't the fact that the WHM couldn't kill you further prove your assessment of bad players vs saying the kit sucks? Or which is it? lol

We can't say "The kit is crap because no one can kill" and then in the same breath say "Well most WHM players suck" and assume there's no overlap.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

You say this, and yet I literally never have this issue. Positioning isn't just "hide behind wall."

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Then you don't play melee.

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Originally Posted by Lymberey

Getting sheeped from 25y away is not overextending. Aren't you the same guy who complained about getting jumped on with 40/40y range advantage in positioning? Now you suggest melees to play conservatively until someone got sheeped and focused to death? I'm lost for words.

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The range the poly is done from doesn't actually matter.

What matters is if a melee dives right into a group of 5 people when they have their burst up, something not that uncommon in lower ranks and casual. If they do, the poly is lethal, but they'll die even if there's no white mage on the opponents team.

And melee have a lot going for them. High LB, short CD gap closers, and completely free movement while DPSing. So much so that a fleeing mage or physical ranged can't really do much of anything about a melee on them, other than hope their team assists. But, yes, that comes with the caveat of "Yeah you need a minimum sense to wait until an enemy is at least slightly distracted, has used their burst, or is split up before jumping right into a group of them."

Still, there's a reason there's more meta melees than any other role. They're strong, even with that caveat. And, hey, if you think poly is bad - one of them even has an uncleansable stun that cancels the target's guard. Even poly can't do that.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

But that's exactly what a *lot* of players even in Crystal and the top 100 do, cost their team the games (or at least require their team to hard-carry them for most of the game), and then rage about "omg WHM OP" instead of just admitting that they did something really stupid and got what they deserved.

Not an uncommon problem in multiplayer games. People are either unwilling to engage in self-reflection or simply never learned how. It's why they remain low skill players.

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Crystal? Man, this happens at every level. and WHM is only one of many scapegoats. It might also be "cheaters" holding them back at silver. Or the most common across all ranked multiplayer games: "My team is bad and holds me back, it's why I'm hardstuck at <insert rank here> for months."

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Originally Posted by Lymberey

In fact, I found WHM to be extremely overloaded compared to AST which is conditional and micro heavy, SGE which lack range on burst (made up with 2 charges), healing capability, party buff and CC, and SCH which lack burst and CC.
None of the other three have non-purifiable hard CC, have no targetable purify, no hard CC aka stun, and for some reason, no instant AoE healing and group regen.
WHM lacks.... DoT....

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Your problem here is that you're comparing white mage to other healers.

You should compare white mage (and every healer) to ninja, dragoon, red mage, and so on.

If you make white mage like other healers, it will be trash like other healers and you simply won't see healers anywhere but casual and low ranks. If you make the other healers like good DPS, they'll become viable too.

As I keep having to repeat: There are no healers (or tanks) in CC. Everyone is a DPS, and has to compete with other DPS.

My BRD feels more like a support than a DPS because it hits like a wet noodle. The assumption that "everyone is a DPS" is just wrong at this point. PLD is definitely not a DPS and definitely cannot compete with other DPS. Warrior can pump out some ok burst during LB but that's it....Everyone is not a DPS, roles exist even if its just minor, there's still heavy differences between tank healer and dps jobs in pvp.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

My BRD feels more like a support than a DPS because it hits like a wet noodle. The assumption that "everyone is a DPS" is just wrong at this point. PLD is definitely not a DPS and definitely cannot compete with other DPS. Warrior can pump out some ok burst during LB but that's it....Everyone is not a DPS, roles exist even if its just minor, there's still heavy differences between tank healer and dps jobs in pvp.

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PLD is one of the best jobs for 1v1. It's very much a DPS. A great one, even. Not to suggest 1v1 is a benchmark but it does highlight high potential in some cases.

But to the general answer - yes there's "support" but it's like support in, well, any game with weak to nonexistent healing. It's still mostly DPS, with some having a bit more emphasis on buffs/anti-CC or debuffs/CC than actual damage but all still being more into DPS than anything else. In FF14's case, more than pve healers are into DPS, and that's truly an impressive feat.

So, yes, you give up some power for silence in BRD's case, or poly and a stun LB in WHM's case, and so on.

But also, BRD isn't balanced. If you use it as the benchmark, you'd need to adjust a ton of jobs at once, or you'd just kill the one/few that you do adjust to BRD levels.

PLD is good in 1v1 because *gasp* its TANKY. They have extremely good CD's that are very much in the meta of a tank. Their damage is hot trash, they just out survive the opponent. Its the same reason dueling healers in ANY mmo pvp will usually result in the healer winning because they can just kite and outlive the dps as they whittle them down with whatever their dps tool kit is (in swtor for example a sorc can just dot you to death and kite you forever)

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

The range the poly is done from doesn't actually matter. What matters is if a melee dives right into a group of 5 people when they have their burst up.
-Ok, first of all, the definition of 'Dive' is an act of breaking through the FRONTLINE, which is melees and tanks, into the backline of supports. Getting sheeped from 25y away means you are not diving, just in the frontline. Gap closers also have 25y. You will be in range of melees before getting in range of backline which isn't considered as diving or overextending. Overextending, diving, and being in the frontline are all different.

"Yeah you need a minimum sense to wait until an enemy is at least slightly distracted------."
-Yeah, because everyone has minimum sense and one has to be a sacrificial lamb. This is why we have Tank role or some unlucky melee DPS. This game is very easy to spot a split, this is not a FPS, unless its a NIN. Don't tell me you still use that jump in and use Guard to bait out burst..... Not to mention splitting up can make you even more of a clear target.

One of them even has an purifiable stun that cancels the target's guard. Even poly can't do that.
-Two, MNK and AoE for RPR. All LB. Might as well throw in NIN LB for guard piercing. All 3 can do something akin to stun and cancel/pierce Guard but that would be comparing an unpurifiable 25s cd skill to LBs.

Your problem here is that you're comparing white mage to other healers.
-Your problem there is the fact that you tell me to compare healers to burst type DPSs. They have different kits.

If you make white mage like other healers, it will be trash like other healers and you simply won't see healers anywhere but casual and low ranks.
-All healers can contribute in different ways. It is just that WHM has immediate and impactful results right out the gate.

There are no healers (or tanks) in CC. Everyone is a DPS.
-Let me tell you about the basic characteristics of each role.
Tank (minus GNB, God bless their souls) :
+They have a lot of self sustain or CC or both, naturally high health, and can take a lot more punishment compared to other roles.
+Their LBs were designed to keep them alive for much longer which is very good for contests, stalling or being a sacrificial lamb.

Healer :
+They have targetable healing capabilities, party buffs or debuffs or both, CC or no CC, DoT or no DoT.
+All of their LBs can give their party a huge passive advantage in team fights and contests.

DPS :
+They have many dmg dealing options, self buff, moderate-high dmg potential, have CC to increase killing capabilities.
+Their LBs are mostly very damaging or devastating to the opposing team and have a lot of play-making potential.

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Truth be told, Tank, Healer, DPS are just blanket level terms as each job is different depending on their individual kit. The real classification is not that simple.
Still, there is no good reason for WHM LB to have fastest recharge time for all it does and an unpurifiable cc.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

god phone sucks

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Believe it or not, the lb doesnt cover the whole width of the crystal ring.

And, you also do not need to be on it in overtime if melees of your team are.
I’ve won us many overtimes because i didnt put myself into danger and pelted people rushing to the crystal because i cant be reached behind my team. Therefore, i was save for benefics and nice planned macrocosmos heals.

Whm is the most support out of the healers, thats why it does the least damage (except the other healer in the group gets bullied) and people pretending whm such strong much wow super damage is annoying.
It quite literally does not.

Can they soften up people with good placed lb+misery+seraph+ morphing? Sure (survived that too)
But so can other healers faster (except sch but sch also hurts a ton) more often. I literally was in the believe the lb charges too fast when i played whm myself. I get it.
But then i switched and just… nah, whm will struggle very hard with any pressure if it does go slower. Anything whm does is meant for the team.

I‘d rather make poly purifyable first.

40yalms is LONG but i still believe its like… 3-5? Yalms wide. Hard to determine.
Thats nothing compared to being pelted by 20 ALL AROUND THE AST SO IT CAN HIT SUPER JANKY THANKS TO SERVERTICKS.
You‘ll never even reach the people in narnia if you laser from 40. But then your team also doesnt get your wing effect immediately and you can’t follow up with anything.

I will never say its bad, but it needs actually more setup than many other lbs to hit as many people as possible.

If its a problem to you, maybe you,re always on top of your team and vice versa? The lb is literally wasted if its on a single person, healing aside. Which is also over time so it needs a bit.

I‘d REALLY say an ignored ast is a way bigger issue than an ignored whm.

You guys REALLY sleep on ast because da heal numba a bit lower on ast than whm.

Sage and sch arent even real healers and thats really fine.

But listen kids: you do not need to all be on the crystal at all times at all costs. Be close to it and disrupt enemies before they reach. Always loop back to crystal on checkpoint to make it go faster if no enemies. Disrupt if respawn. Repeat.
Healer are good tower rider (ast and whm) if you loop around for heals/pots. Be aware of limited heal option of ast/whm.
If you dont get crystal panic, chances are you take a LOT of opportunity from whm to accomplish much with their lb because you dont all take chipdamage from it.

If you say whm lb wins you a lot of games, you‘ll love ast (not joking, its suuuper fun and strong and spacedust hachacha is so funny).

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Then you don't play melee.

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I play SCH, AST, WHM, NIN, and PLD. Stop making excuses for why you keep dying. You're dying because you're not using your head. You won't die to CC chains if you learn how to actually initiate and disengage effectively. Keep in mind, healers have *nothing* for defense if they get jumped on compared to melee or even ranged. Playing a healer will, ironically, probably teach you a lot more about positioning and how badly you're screwing things up than playing a melee will, because you literally have nothing but the same Guard and Purify everyone else has if you get out of position and get jumped on.

WHM's LB is definitely wide enough to cover an entire lane if you're firing directly down the center as you can peg all four of the target dummies on the pier with it if you're positioned properly.

It's not threatening in a void but the fact that you can coordinate it with the rest of your team's damage while still remaining at a safe distance is what makes it dangerous.

It's also the only healer LB that provides an immediate benefit with no real strings attached. AST LB has a noticeable animation lock and requires you to be reasonably close to your team and/or the enemy to maximize its benefit, SGE requires your team to actually know it does and run into its radius, and SCH's LB is just kinda...not that helpful in general (If it gave you CC immunity instead of one time CC resistance, then it would be far better).

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

WHM's LB is definitely wide enough to cover an entire lane if you're firing directly down the center as you can peg all four of the target dummies on the pier with it if you're positioned properly.

It's not threatening in a void but the fact that you can coordinate it with the rest of your team's damage while still remaining at a safe distance is what makes it dangerous.

It's also the only healer LB that provides an immediate benefit with no real strings attached. AST LB has a noticeable animation lock and requires you to be reasonably close to your team and/or the enemy to maximize its benefit, SGE requires your team to actually know it does and run into its radius, and SCH's LB is just kinda...not that helpful in general (If it gave you CC immunity instead of one time CC resistance, then it would be far better).

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Seraph puts out an *enormous* amount of healing over time, in a large area. Seraph Flight isn't even the best part of it, it's just a nice bonus. Everyone gets Excog for 8000 healing, Seraph throws an Adlo at the most injured person for 4000+4000 every 2.5 sec while she's active, and you can pop Consolation any time while she's active to give everyone a 4000+4000 heal on top of Seraphic Veil and Galvanize. It also gives you Recitation, which will typically be used to boost a Spreadlo so you're giving your team a 6000 shield and the damage buff at the same time as everything else. Seraph will let your team just straight up no-sell multiple AOE LBs; I've watched SMN and DRG pop off on the point at the same time and my team was still well above half health after the smoke cleared.

If you think Seraph doesn't win fights, you're not paying close enough attention. It's one of the most powerful LBs in the game, *far* moreso than WHM's laser (which is why the laser is only 60 sec charge instead of 120.) If you see Seraph deployed, you either need to immediately disengage and get out of her healing radius, or immediately kill the SCH to unsummon her. AST is pretty much in the same boat - fighting into Celestial River is suicide unless you can immediately execute the AST before their team can really start making use of that enormous delta.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I play SCH, AST, WHM, NIN, and PLD. Stop making excuses for why you keep dying. You're dying because you're not using your head. You won't die to CC chains if you learn how to actually initiate and disengage effectively. Keep in mind, healers have *nothing* for defense if they get jumped on compared to melee or even ranged. Playing a healer will, ironically, probably teach you a lot more about positioning and how badly you're screwing things up than playing a melee will, because you literally have nothing but the same Guard and Purify everyone else has if you get out of position and get jumped on.

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Its amazing how terrible you make yourself sound as a pvper.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Its amazing how terrible you make yourself sound as a pvper.

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So what you're saying is, I can ignore you entirely and miss nothing. That's the gist of what I'm seeing from you in the past few days. Why are you so incapable of accepting when you are wrong? Just because something or someone beats you doesn't mean it's overpowered or it's a problem. How do you expect to improve if you refuse to admit error in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

So what you're saying is, I can ignore you entirely and miss nothing. That's the gist of what I'm seeing from you in the past few days. Why are you so incapable of accepting when you are wrong? Just because something or someone beats you doesn't mean it's overpowered or it's a problem. How do you expect to improve if you refuse to admit error in the first place?

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Because I'm not wrong. You talk about being "out of position" while not even knowing what the fuck that even means. By your standards a melee is ALWAYS going to be out of position. You clearly do not play melee and you clearly have no concept of what being in position actually means. You're one of those ranged players that doesn't know how to actually play range while clambering on about how melee are always out of position because apparently you expect them to just hang out with you in the back line and forever avoid a 25y poly. And for the record, I pretty much only play ranged in CC. If I go melee its either warrior or drg and I only do that on the volcano map.

You don't understand how pvp works at all.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

WHM's LB is definitely wide enough to cover an entire lane if you're firing directly down the center as you can peg all four of the target dummies on the pier with it if you're positioned properly.

It's not threatening in a void but the fact that you can coordinate it with the rest of your team's damage while still remaining at a safe distance is what makes it dangerous.

It's also the only healer LB that provides an immediate benefit with no real strings attached. AST LB has a noticeable animation lock and requires you to be reasonably close to your team and/or the enemy to maximize its benefit, SGE requires your team to actually know it does and run into its radius, and SCH's LB is just kinda...not that helpful in general (If it gave you CC immunity instead of one time CC resistance, then it would be far better).

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? Absolutely not it's barely a bit wider than the whm, pretty sure it looks wider than it is too (sometimes it doesn't hit what it "should")
https://i.imgur.com/uYxThIz.png
https://i.imgur.com/PUhemmX.png
https://i.imgur.com/bND7Twf.png
https://i.imgur.com/wguzi47.png

I THINK this is closer to the actual size:
https://i.imgur.com/EHDNurJ.png

Ast on the other hand...

https://i.imgur.com/apSBlc0.png

Als i am "ignoring" everything not lb relate dbecause you're right. Arguing over other things is pointless.
Even tho i'm still the opinion that morph should absolutely be purifyable.

EDIT!
I tested and it is indeed bigger than it seems.
But it is basically because striking dummy "hitboxes" are way bigger than players, hence it might lead to very much jank.
The laser is not always where its supposed to show on your screen either (its super janky)
https://i.imgur.com/ZXgEztH.png

But i KNOW for a fact that it will not hit the whole corridor, ever. It's so weird how janky this game is and how allergic it is to show all the size (it doesn't show drg lb size either??? Why doesn't it show the full range??? Bro??? I mean in the description since whm radius is definitely not 40, otherwise it would be literally too op but it really isnt...)
Otherwise, every whm lb ever will hit everybody in the firemap, which it will most definitely not.
So i have no idea what's up with how it interacts with player hitboxes and since it's barely shown where it's supposed to be (sometimes its super off, you can achieve it yourself too...)....

My screens showing who got hit and who didnt are a good comparison to how i still hit 3 dummies in the middle of that arena, it's... really weird.

Also yes i know my photo editing skills are top notch

I must've been having a fever dream when I imagined it hitting that big of an area. The actual visible radius on it looks more like a ranged LB 2 but with extra distance.

It still feels like the most "reliable" to me out of all the healer LBs in an environment where coordinating with your team can be rather difficult and people are running scripts designed to automatically CC/focus fire people who are "high priority" due to having their LB currently active.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I must've been having a fever dream when I imagined it hitting that big of an area. The actual visible radius on it looks more like a ranged LB 2 but with extra distance.

It still feels like the most "reliable" to me out of all the healer LBs in an environment where coordinating with your team can be rather difficult and people are running scripts designed to automatically CC/focus fire people who are "high priority" due to having their LB currently active.

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The lb is extremely janky. Positioning is very important, am currently going through a few matches on the firemap with an enemy whm.
https://i.imgur.com/pdM5kbz.png
It's... really extremely janky sometimes how it shows.
Good usage gets very much rewarded. But you can definitely guide whm lbs to be less dangerous if you spread a little or are close to walls.

Like this:
https://i.imgur.com/yOqBfxv.png

I'm gonna say it. The game has to show lenght and how WIDE lbs are. Dragoon literally shows nothing (might be 10 yards actually because sages is 5 and drg is double that size) and that's really stupid.
It is REALLY hard to tell. I still say 5, but sages is 5 and can cover the whole crystal.
But whm doesn't if you don't all stand in the middle, maybe that's why i think it doesn't?
Just going to the left/right a little makes you not get hit after all.

This is why information (and visual clarity in colors) is every important, yet it's missing