The Devs aren't your personal friends and valid criticism isn't "harrassment"

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

But the person isn't claiming that you literally cannot ever criticize the devs.

Their next reply even said:

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You're pretty much just highlighting how hard these types of people are acting in bad faith. They rewrite and mischaracterize the words of otherwise harmless opposition, pivot their own positions on a dime, and occupy positions simply because they are convenient to their goals instead of being consistent and honest about their actual beliefs.

No one is going to come out and outright state that they are engaging in bad faith tactics. To believe so would be naïve, and leave you extremely vulnerable to the constant use of dog-whistles and plausible deniability tactics that characterize so much discourse these days.

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Originally Posted by Lecru

You do realize you're not allowed to single people out like this. Correct. And it's subject to a ban

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What a bizarre hill to die on. Are you an alt of that OP?

In the end of the day I think most people can agree that death threats aren't okay.
But I also think that people are being quite silly if they can't understand that how they give criticism actually matters too.

A lot of you wouldn't read and take your own criticism seriously if you were on the other side, if you're going to give criticism then actually consider how you'd receive it yourself too.
I don't think that anyone is actually against or have a problem with actual calm and reasonable criticism either.
The problem is when it's no longer criticism and it's just like 80% about insulting the devs, understand that CM's and people in charge of collecting feedback aren't going to actually take that seriously they're going to ignore it.
And that's a perfectly human response and it's not that hard to believe that if it was your job and you had to go over so many posts every day that you'd just read the first sentence and then go '' ok another one of those '' and then keep scrolling.
If you want your criticism to be heard and actually make it to the devs then you have to practice some self-control too.

I think that this is something that actually happens quite frequently in gaming.
People who take it to 11 and are just being overall incredibly rude and aggressive drowns out the criticism and it just never ends up being taken seriously.
Even if you pay for something it doesn't mean you can talk to people however you want if you ate at a restaurant and didn't like something about the food even if you gave a big tip you can't expect them to take it seriously if you called the chef an idiot who can't cook for shit.
It doesn't somehow entitle you to act and say whatever you want.

I think that because this is the internet people forget this, people on this forum would never talk the way they do to others here irl.
If they actually got to say their criticism directly to Yoshi P they'd suddenly behave.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

The "death threats" bit was related to someone on the Japanese forums. I believe someone mailed a developer a knife after raging about SAM changes. That incident is what Yoshi was talking about.

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Yeah, every time I hear about death threats, they're coming from JP players. NA players then proceed to either use them to deflect criticism or think they're just an excuse and/or not happening at all. Happens every time.

The OP started the thread with the title and body of the post asking people to stop "being mean" and harassing the devs.

Aveyond-dreams responded with the implication that the OP was complaining about what is "reasonable means" of holding the devs accountable.

Eara responds with the assumption that that Aveyond was equivocating "death threats" (a form of harassment) with "reasonable means".

At best, this was a case of three people who all agree that criticism is fine and death threats are not, and are simply talking past each other.

At worst, these three people have different ideas of what "reasonable means" entails. Giving the benefit of the doubt, it seems Eara's concern was because Aveyond attempted to rebut the OP's claims that the devs are being harassed with the statement "reasonable means must be employed", that Aveyond was conflating those two things as a bad faith tactic. (I'm not a mind-reader, but that's what Eara's reply reads like they assumed.) If Eara was wrong, then the OP's point and the argument of harassment (including threats) being too far still stands.

Either way, they were definitely NOT saying anything like, "Since the devs are getting death threats, then no one can criticize them anymore, ever."

Just because you don’t see death threats doesn’t mean much. Also, what’s ‘valid’ in your eyes doesn’t matter to anybody else because that’s just your opinion man.

I love how everyone loves the story that 1.0 was a really bad game but after all criticism they changed it for a better game, but now we have to say sorry before complaining about the game.

I'll not be surprised if this game becomes an WOW in the next years. Seems that paying the subscription every month is not enough to complain about the game.

All the posts with the 'just because you dont see it-' jfc
You're literally hallucinating 'what if' red herrings all to stop people from voicing their concerns. Why again?? Because you see these paid employees as your personal best friends or something?? I just don't understand it. You don't think any of this should be addressed or fixed at all? Because you headcanonn going on coffee dates with them after livestreams or something? Do you think you're dating?? What's going on here. What is this out of body experience you must be having to explain why paying customers communicating problems to their service provider is wrong and needs to stop.

How many times do people have to repeat that no one wishes devs or anyone any ill will? Or rather, that the majority of us dont? Is this another "not all men" thing where before we say anything at all, we have to constantly disclaim "not all customers" before we try to explain why we dislike what's happening to us? Like can you get a grip for about 8 seconds here?
Here, let me write it in a format that will surely cause nobody tears.

I wish all the devs a beautiful day and a wonderful life, the housing was horrific.
Yoshi is one of my favorite game directors and I love the rings he wears, that was the most disrespectful stream and subsequent release to hrothgars I think I've ever seen in my mmo life.
The team behind XIV is talented and unlike anything we've ever seen before, they're making jobs braindead and that's troubling.
If I could, I'd marry each and every one of them yoshi included oh kiss me oh kiss me, the decisions lately have been complete disasters and rushed disasters at that. There's no way the ward thing should have been a been a last minute detail that people learned nearly the night before patch day-I say this on one knee with a ring in my hand.
As I hang my 5th XIV poster on my wall in my Scions of the seventh dawn shirt with Footfalls playing softly in the background, I cannot help but glance back at my screen and wonder why these latest changes were so genuinely terrible.

Alright now who did I traumatize. Go on, point out the death threat. I know someone will imagine it's there, victim complexes come in all shapes and sizes. Like jeez. If someone says something nutty, everyones been telling them to shove it. But a few nutters doesnt mean everyone needs to stop. People are doing the right thing to communicate to the devs how they feel. When you work in the world of art, you know that. Feedback is everything. Feedback is paramount. Critique is what leads you to greatness. Does it always feel good? No way. No way, it sucks. But to cross your arms and say critique isnt allowed? You might as well just quit, because you're not cut out for it. If you want to be great, you have to learn how to listen. If that first version of XIV didnt get blown a new buttflap, the majority of us wouldnt even be here right now.

Back in the day, when I bought a game I received the experience I was looking for. Even if not, no one was up in arms when I said this game sucks lol.

People put up with waaaaay too much nowadays. Have a spine, one not made out of jello would be good. If you like stuff good for you, but that doesn't mean it goes for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Bad_Luck

Just because you don’t see death threats doesn’t mean much. Also, what’s ‘valid’ in your eyes doesn’t matter to anybody else because that’s just your opinion man.

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Stop threatening me. :D

As Divinemights said back in January

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You guys do realize the target group that Yoship is referring to are those Japanese extreme players who mailed knife blade as threat right?
These guys are the worst and can even go as far as burning down an anime studio.
These are the group that constantly making verbal threat and stalking.
He is not referring to the snowflakes who always using subscription as threat, those are just sheeps.
He is talking about the real wolves here.

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So, come on guys, stop with pretending the knife is due to SAM changes, or that there is even one death threat on the forums. You are letting your imaginations get away from you in some sort of insane group hysteria.

I agree so much!! I think the devs are devs. Devs deserve praise when they get something right, and criticism and complaints when they do something bad. There should never be insults, but don't mistake criticism and complaints for insults.

"If you present criticism in a way that actively makes the other person not want to listen, your criticism has failed." - CritCrab

Being stern and honest is good. Yoshida actively welcomes this. Presenting it in a way that is useful is better. There is a difference between "Housing sucks and the devs don't care." and "Housing has some serious issues, and we would like more communication from the devs." One is identifying and proposing a solution or a reasonable action, the other is naught but whining and conjecture.

Same with SAM and WAR changes. Too many people were up in arms insulting the devs, saying the jobs were literally unplayable. From a dev perspective this isn't really useful and is very hyperbolic. The people who said "Removing Kaiten was a bad idea when other actions should be looked at first." is far more useful and welcome as it gives a basis from which to act. It shows rational thought and consideration had been given, and wasn't an over emotional reaction.

I always think back to seriously underrated movie: Megamind. "What's the difference between a villain and a supervillain? PRESENTATION". It all comes down to presentation in the end. If you present your criticism is a way that allows people to engage with it, your criticism will go far further than an emotional rant.

I am shocked I have to say this again, but I will do so.

Criticism is fine, and needed! I've criticized the decisions by the dev team! Its part of a healthy community!

What I was responding to and criticizing (cause hey it doesn't only have to be towards the devs) is trying to reframe a plea for people to avoid death threats into a attempt to shut down discussion. The explicit point of that thread was to encourage people to call out detestable behavior. In no way did it try to push back against criticism. Responding to that thread by accusing the OP of trying to shut down criticism is either a case of horrific misreading because criticism /= death threats, or saying that a post trying to stop harassment would shut down criticism. Either he was bringing up a completely unrelated topic into a thread about harassment, or he was geniunely saying that calling out being nasty will lead to 14 becoming WoW. If you don't agree with my interpretation of that, that's fine, but at least try to understand why I would read it that way. Its the equivalent of going to a gun control rally and saying "quit being mean to gun owners ):." Like what?

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

At worst, these three people have different ideas of what "reasonable means" entails. Giving the benefit of the doubt, it seems Eara's concern was because Aveyond attempted to rebut the OP's claims that the devs are being harassed with the statement "reasonable means must be employed", that Aveyond was conflating those two things as a bad faith tactic. (I'm not a mind-reader, but that's what Eara's reply reads like they assumed.) If Eara was wrong, then the OP's point and the argument of harassment (including threats) being too far still stands.

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This exactly. Thank you genuinely because this thread makes me feeling like I'm in bizarro world. People are going from "Eara was totally out of line for associating Aveyond's response with death threats" to "those death threats don't actually exist/aren't a big deal and you all are a bunch of white knights." I have had zero problem with constructive criticism. Whatever my feelings are about the housing issues or other problems those critiques are always good to have. Whats being said isn't constructive nor actually critique. Its lashing out.

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Originally Posted by EcoReck

The recent issues such as housing, hrothgars, healing, or lack of job depth are all valid points of concern.

"But death threats" what death threats? This always gets brought up in this discussion when people in the community have issues with something in the game, yet there is never any of these type of comments in criticism thread. It's a baseless scapegoat that is constantly used to dismiss points of discussion and criticism.

These people need to stop taking these valid points of criticism as a personal attack to themselves nor do they need to find every excuse to let them slide. We are paying for a service and they are paid to provide a service.

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Japan has a history of death threats on major studios. Just look at the arson that happened several years back. It gets brought up because devs are genuinely afraid for their safety at times, which I can respect.

Your criticism becomes a lot less valid when you use hyperbole.

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Originally Posted by EcoReck

These people need to stop taking these valid points of criticism as a personal attack to themselves nor do they need to find every excuse to let them slide. We are paying for a service and they are paid to provide a service.

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It's sad, but I do think the game's downfall will be caused by the people who are too positive to give the game any form of criticism. By not giving the developers feedback, the developers will think everything's okay and they should carry on as normal.
People keep speaking of these death threats that're always spoken of, but never actually seen. I'm not saying these things don't happen, but in the past 2-3 weeks I have not seen a single death threat towards Square Enix. I have only seen people expressing their frustration and rightfully so.

We pay a subscription, if the developers want our continued support then they should take our feedback into account, at the very least acknowledge it. Especially when it's the majority of the community giving the exact same feedback, and have been suggesting for years.

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Originally Posted by SherlottaEryut

We pay a subscription, if the developers want our continued support then they should take our feedback into account, at the very least acknowledge it. Especially when it's the majority of the community giving the exact same feedback, and have been suggesting for years.

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This, this is the biggest issue right now. If devs addressed any common topics on forums (if they are aware, if any changes are planned, why, why not, what statistics are they using), that would make big difference.
It may be that changes are already planned, or that only miniority is unhappy and it will not be changed. But now playerbase is blind, not knowing what to expect

People long forget that this game was rehauled and made into the game it is precisely due to negative feedback and criticism of the game

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Those are absolutely valid concerns. None of which are helped by calling the people involved in their implementation "idiots", "Incompetent", or talking about how their mistakes should never have been made. There is a line between abuse and criticism.

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Neither of those words are abusive when used in proper context. Are they particularly harsh? The latter, yes. However, criticism tends to become harsher has time goes on and feedback is continuously ignored. Housing has been a known sore spot for half a decade now and we've seen once band-aid solution after another that never addresses the actual issues. Thus, players are becoming increasingly fed up.

In this specific circumstance, I feel "incompetence" is applicable. As is saying this "should never have happened." We're talking about a relatively basic coding error. If there were some random indie developer, I'd be far more forgiving. My expectations are significantly higher from a multi-billion dollar corporation. And as mentioned above, people's patience regarding housing is at an all time low due to yet another band-aid solution blowing up as the dev team stubbornly clings to a system that hasn't worked for years. What should be noted is criticism like this is usually isolated to a particular incident and not reflective of what people think of the dev team as a whole.

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Originally Posted by jpr

This, this is the biggest issue right now. If devs addressed any common topics on forums (if they are aware, if any changes are planned, why, why not, what statistics are they using), that would make big difference.
It may be that changes are already planned, or that only miniority is unhappy and it will not be changed. But now playerbase is blind, not knowing what to expect

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Very much this. I don't think the developers need to explain every little thing they do, have done, or are planning to do. It's their game after all, and they should be the ones to design it. I also doubt we'll ever see any actual detailed statistics on things because that's just not something any company just gives out so it's silly to expect it (and most people demanding it are just doing so because they've convinced themselves that these "hidden" numbers will validate their own perspective). But what we do need is more actual two way communication and engagement from those whose job it is to do so.

We never really know what feedback from here is actually making it to the devs and, if it is making it, what form it's taking. Is it what's actually being discussed or is it a watered down, blunted, point form version? Take the Healer debate as an example. Healers have a variety of complaints and issues ranging from their role/necessity in combat to how lacking the healing jobs are engagement wise in all levels of combat encounter when healing isn't needed. It can be a lot to take in, but it's all important and there have been some very well stated examples and suggestions given by the players. But the message that actually seems like the devs are being given is "lol the healers are just saying the game's too easy again lol" which is potentially why Yoshida's response was "Well, they should just wait until Ultimate comes around."

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Originally Posted by Osteichthyes

"If you present criticism in a way that actively makes the other person not want to listen, your criticism has failed." - CritCrab

Being stern and honest is good. Yoshida actively welcomes this. Presenting it in a way that is useful is better. There is a difference between "Housing sucks and the devs don't care." and "Housing has some serious issues, and we would like more communication from the devs." One is identifying and proposing a solution or a reasonable action, the other is naught but whining and conjecture..

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Except we tried that.

It was ignored and they continue to do whatever they want. When they have decided to go in a direction they go in that direction no matter if it could have been better or worse.

And then they have to spend months and precious resources cleaning up their self made mess.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Neither of those words [idots, incompetent] are abusive when used in proper context. Are they particularly harsh? The latter, yes.

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This is a distinctly Western take on criticism, and totally ignores the distinct differences from a Japanese cultural perspective.

One does not do "harsh" in Japan. One can be polite or threatening. There are no nuances.

There is no need to be harsh in one's criticism. The main threads one reads on the forums are not generally 'criticism', they are venting which, while it makes the writer feel much better, often offer no particularly constructive methods for resolving the issue.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

This is a distinctly Western take on criticism, and totally ignores the distinct differences from a Japanese cultural perspective.

One does not do "harsh" in Japan. One can be polite or threatening. There are no nuances.

There is no need to be harsh in one's criticism. The main threads one reads on the forums are not generally 'criticism', they are venting which, while it makes the writer feel much better, often offer no particularly constructive methods for resolving the issue.

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It's not how you talk to people in Sweden either, I don't imagine it's how you talk to people in most of Europe either.
Even the most toxic internet forums in Swedish are incredibly polite by comparison to sites like Reddit and this forum lol.
Our news is totally different too and not as ultra dramatized and full of antagonism and division I don't think that stuff is actually normal in most of the developed world.

It's mostly an internet thing too, people who act badly on this forum would never do it to someones face but suddenly they're on the internet and they feel big.
But there are certain cultural differences too in how loud and obnoxious people are.
And those differences are even greater in Japan.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Japan has a history of death threats on major studios. Just look at the arson that happened several years back. It gets brought up because devs are genuinely afraid for their safety at times, which I can respect.

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In China someone tried to break into the office of the Genshin Impact devs with a knife.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

The main threads one reads on the forums are not generally 'criticism', they are venting which, while it makes the writer feel much better, often offer no particularly constructive methods for resolving the issue.

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A bit off topic but, it's not exactly the players jobs to come up with solutions to things they don't like. Nor does every feedback need to contain a detailed read out of how they think it should be resolved. (Over half of those won't be used or considered anyway.) People can post their discontent without being a jerk though, beyond that, if it's posted in a way that translates poorly because of cultural differences, that's a translation issue not a feedback issue and maybe shouldn't be delivered verbatim. Being blunt or direct can also some times be misconstrued as "harsh".

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

This is a distinctly Western take on criticism, and totally ignores the distinct differences from a Japanese cultural perspective.

One does not do "harsh" in Japan. One can be polite or threatening. There are no nuances.

There is no need to be harsh in one's criticism. The main threads one reads on the forums are not generally 'criticism', they are venting which, while it makes the writer feel much better, often offer no particularly constructive methods for resolving the issue.

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As someone mentioned, it's not our job to make these decisions or offer a paved path ahead despite how many times we have already. There's a thing called a Design Director. It's their job to figure this out. And much like when I find out my food is raw, I'm going to be a bit upset at the person in charge. I'm not going to offer suggestions on temperature or prep time.

Believe me, if I had any actual sway, housing and the Limited Races would be the forefront of fixes.

But no. We're making reskins of old gear and umbrellas. Didn't Mahjong also eat up a ton of development time? What fun! I love playing Mahjong on those 15-30 minute queues. Please look forward to it.

When are we allowed to be frustrated? I feel like we're a bit past that point and the anger can be at least somewhat understandable, if occasionally extreme.

I do feel the need to point out that over the last few pages we've rehashed the eternal "lol look at how HYPERBOLIC and DRAMATIC the English-speaking world is, they're just so MEAN and they're not CIVILIZED like the rest of the world is afwahfwahfwah" contrasting against "oh also those much more civilized cultures hold back their vitriol until they explode and threaten to kill people in real life". :cool:

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

This is a distinctly Western take on criticism, and totally ignores the distinct differences from a Japanese cultural perspective.

One does not do "harsh" in Japan. One can be polite or threatening. There are no nuances.

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This argument does not work when releasing a product to a global audience. While Japanese culture may have a more binary approach to criticism, Western culture, especially American, does not. The latter is exceedingly blunt, which can come across far harsher. Demanding they change their tact is the equivalent of a Western developer demanding Japan change theirs.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

There is no need to be harsh in one's criticism.

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I disagree. Like Deceptus said above, many of us have tried the "honest" approach and been met with either excuses or silence. In fact, look no further than the Dark Knight mega thread. If you were to go back, you'll notice criticism was a lot softer in the earlier days but after years having Living Dead's issues initially being ignored only to then be told "its part of DRK's identity and thus, can't be changed." The feedback grew increasingly harsher. Lo and behold something was finally done all because the Dark Knight playerbase would not shut up and simply kept badgering.

The same applies to the healer section. Go back 3-4 years ago and criticism is noticeable softer when people believed they were being acknowledged. We didn't see threads questioning if the dev team even has someone playing the role or has even the foggiest idea how to design them until years of unaddressed criticism went by with increasingly poor decisions to go along with them. Perhaps the single most damning example being Stormblood Lilies, where Yoshida was directly told they were bad at the Media Tour. It took them two whole years to admit they messed up despite threads 300 pages long voicing feedback. When being told to "play Ultimate" is a response garnered from the director towards job design not difficulty, it comes as little surprise people meet that dismissive attitude with an attitude of their own.

Harsh criticism isn't necessarily borne from the ether but people growing increasingly frustrated the feedback we're told to provide goes on to be ignored incessantly.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I do feel the need to point out that over the last few pages we've rehashed the eternal "lol look at how HYPERBOLIC and DRAMATIC the English-speaking world is, they're just so MEAN and they're not CIVILIZED like the rest of the world is afwahfwahfwah" contrasting against "oh also those much more civilized cultures hold back their vitriol until they explode and threaten to kill people in real life". :cool:

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People do the latter in every country, it's not like a certain English speaking country doesn't have a big mass-shootings issue.
But I mean cultural differences in regards to how you speak to people is definitely a thing, imo I think Japan takes it in the extreme opposite but still.
There's a lot of Eastern artists who actively avoid the English side of the internet even tho they're fluent in English or have abandoned it after harassment, I know that this is an issue on Twitter in particular.
There was a Japanese artist who got harassed into removing all of their free art tutorials because people got so insanely angry that they used the word '' beginner '' in some of their tutorials.

The English side of the internet is pretty damn crazy yeah...
Is that even up for debate rofl?
Maybe you don't have another frame of reference but based on my experience with multiple different languages online at least it's true.
And it's probably a pretty big culture shock if English isn't as ingrained into you as it is for most Europeans and you didn't get into the English side of online culture when you were young.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

People do the latter in every country, it's not like a certain English speaking country doesn't have a big mass-shootings issue.

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Oh. You're one of those Europeans. Yeah that's not going to be an on-topic, nor productive discussion.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

Back in the day, when I bought a game I received the experience I was looking for. Even if not, no one was up in arms when I said this game sucks lol.

People put up with waaaaay too much nowadays. Have a spine, one not made out of jello would be good. If you like stuff good for you, but that doesn't mean it goes for everyone else.

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Back in the day, when I bought a game it might be good or rubbish, and if it was rubbish I stopped playing it and took it back to EB Games for a refund.

Either way, I was playing the game that the developers had chosen to put out, not one for which fans had the ability to request changes. It's a completely different ecosystem.

I think I'm still in that mindset on the larger details of the game, though. It's the developers' creation and we choose to play it because we like what they're offering. They don't need to cater every single aspect of it to players' requests if it clashes with what they want their game to look like, even though it's certainly appreciated if they do take requests on board.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Oh. You're one of those Europeans. Yeah that's not going to be an on-topic, nor productive discussion.

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"Oh. Youre one of THOSE undesirables" Is basically what I heard from reading that statement lol.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Back in the day, when I bought a game it might be good or rubbish, and if it was rubbish I stopped playing it and took it back to EB Games for a refund.

Either way, I was playing the game that the developers had chosen to put out, not one for which fans had the ability to request changes. It's a completely different ecosystem.

I think I'm still in that mindset on the larger details of the game, though. It's the developers' creation and we choose to play it because we like what they're offering. They don't need to cater every single aspect of it to players' requests if it clashes with what they want their game to look like, even though it's certainly appreciated if they do take requests on board.

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I agree with most of what you said except the fact some of us have been very loyal and lost alot of money over the years. I can't refund my account and receive my money back but walk away silently. It doesn't leave a good impression if this is how you treat your core playerbase. We decided to stay for the long haul not for a walk in the park.

Frankly, the only thing the internet has taught me is that most humans are awful, selfish, nasty to each other and, if free of consequences, would have no problems murdering their own family to get what they want.

People don't care that the developers are human. They want what they want and it doesn't matter what anyone else wants because only their wants are important. It's been that way throughout all of human history.

Misanthropy is the only way.

Facetiousness aside, the devs are in a no win situation here. If they stay silent, they're told they're ignoring the community. If they promise things that they can't deliver right away, they risk turning into Cyberpunk 2077. No matter what course they take, it will lead to them being criticized. Unless they start listening to just this part of the community, which then risks turning into another WoW situation where 1% of the people dictate the gaming experience of the other 99% and is literally killing the game.

Any other job: The customer is always right, even when they are wrong!

SE: The customers don't know what they want, WE know what they want.

I mean, both are not very good takes but neither side's mentality will create a good product. Then again, if you can charge a monthly fee (plus tip ala the mogstation) then you can coast on your laurels for a while until the numbers dip too hard.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Neither of those words are abusive when used in proper context. Are they particularly harsh? The latter, yes. However, criticism tends to become harsher has time goes on and feedback is continuously ignored. Housing has been a known sore spot for half a decade now and we've seen once band-aid solution after another that never addresses the actual issues. Thus, players are becoming increasingly fed up.

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If I used those words when talking to my subordinates at work I would be severely talked to and possibly fired. As much as I THINK them.. there is never any constructive benefit to using them. They add nothing to the feedback. You can be "fed up" all you want, but once you start using loaded language like that, you aren't making your case any better, you're just coloring yourself as a jerk.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

In this specific circumstance, I feel "incompetence" is applicable. As is saying this "should never have happened." We're talking about a relatively basic coding error. If there were some random indie developer, I'd be far more forgiving. My expectations are significantly higher from a multi-billion dollar corporation. And as mentioned above, people's patience regarding housing is at an all time low due to yet another band-aid solution blowing up as the dev team stubbornly clings to a system that hasn't worked for years. What should be noted is criticism like this is usually isolated to a particular incident and not reflective of what people think of the dev team as a whole.

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Seems that both of your suppositions were wrong. While the testing probably should have caught that problem.. it wasn't as simple as "we included 0 as a result". So in this case calling people idiots, or incompetent was pretty irrelevant, and at worst it was a lack of testing variables being available.

Once again a case for expressing disappointment or asking for other things would be fine.. but making assumptions and insulting people was not.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

If I used those words when talking to my subordinates at work I would be severely talked to and possibly fired. As much as I THINK them.. there is never any constructive benefit to using them. They add nothing to the feedback. You can be "fed up" all you want, but once you start using loaded language like that, you aren't making your case any better, you're just coloring yourself as a jerk.

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Agreed. I can't picture any circumstance where you could call someone an idiot or incompetent to their face and not have it be abusive – and using it in what is intended as direct feedback to the developers is the virtual equivalent of doing that.

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Originally Posted by Arkanis_Linvail

"Im getting death threats" is often something used by people on social media as a way of getting people to stop attacking them....

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It's also used in social media (and beyond) when people are getting death threats.

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Originally Posted by Kohl

It's also used in social media (and beyond) when people are getting death threats.

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It's also used in social media (and beyond) to manipulate people to your side.

At this point who cares if someone is mean to you on the internet? If they go beyond that then that's stalking which is illegal and, more than likely, the authorities can help you with. Any social website worth it's salt has a block button and at the very least just ignore the jerk and keep scrolling, lol.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

If I used those words when talking to my subordinates at work I would be severely talked to and possibly fired. As much as I THINK them.. there is never any constructive benefit to using them. They add nothing to the feedback. You can be "fed up" all you want, but once you start using loaded language like that, you aren't making your case any better, you're just coloring yourself as a jerk.

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... these are not remotely the same circumstances. You're comparing a work colleague to being a customer. The reason for being reprimanded at work isn't necessarily for the remark itself but the fact you're gossiping with other employees and potentially creating a hostile work environment. None of us work for Square Enix nor will what we say have any bearing on them. YouTube has been routinely called incompetent for their horrendous mismanagement of copyright strikes and the open bias they show. Are we really going to argue tuning down our language because the multi-billion dollar corporation's feelings may be hurt? At the end of the day, Square Enix, like YouTube, is a company not our work colleague or friend. Attempting to compare the two is ridiculous.

Ultimately, this should have been better tested, especially considering how poorly they've handled housing since its inception. Credit where credit is due, Yoshida's response is fairly good.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

... these are not remotely the same circumstances. You're comparing a work colleague to being a customer.

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Being a customer does not make it not-abusive to direct those words at someone when you are delivering feedback to them.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Are we really going to argue tuning down our language because the multi-billion dollar corporations feelings may be hurt?

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When talking (or providing feedback) to them directly, yes.