Make all Tank AOE Combos Cones Please

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'd almost rather see some semblance of shield skills come back, with absorbed damage then being releasable via Shield Slam -- which would then most make sense as a targeted conal or semi-circular AoE (with only the primary target getting stunned, at least for full duration).

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Sounds like it would be fun, unfortunately having damage being conditional seems to be something they really want to get rid off, for better or worse (see Spirits Within)

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Originally Posted by marelooke

Sounds like it would be fun, unfortunately having damage being conditional seems to be something they really want to get rid off, for better or worse (see Spirits Within)

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Theres already vengeance so just give pld their version of it?

i dont understand, im a tank dungeon hero for the tank mounts, i never ever ever had issues with W2W because my aoes were not a cone

aiming with ur character (where they stand) is not a hard thing to do, maybe u miss one mob every now and then while on the way to next pack, just tag it with a ranged attack and keep sprinting

a cone is really not ideal for hitting a large number of enemies as they pile around u

if anything, ask for a range increase on aoes in general, hell the caster type that needs a target and aoes around that target is such garbage, hardly ever hits everything and can even prevent you from aoeing because it is impossible to hit at least 3 targets

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

a cone is really not ideal for hitting a large number of enemies as they pile around u

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Out of curiosity. Do you stand still once you pulled all mobs? Never moving away from your spot, even when aoe are aimed at the spot you are standing? Even when holmgang duration is gone?

Otherwise everything else you say is purely out of preference.

And DRK still has to position itself for flood of darkness. Just pointing out that warrior wasnt alone.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

a cone is really not ideal for hitting a large number of enemies as they pile around u

if anything, ask for a range increase on aoes in general, hell the caster type that needs a target and aoes around that target is such garbage, hardly ever hits everything and can even prevent you from aoeing because it is impossible to hit at least 3 targets

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Are you seriously blaming the dps because you cant be bothered to position mobs?

Here is one low quality meme post to assist in greater understanding;

https://i.ibb.co/ZB4jkyC/badtanku.png

https://i.ibb.co/Pgx301H/goodtanku.png

https://i.ibb.co/bj4hrfk/healerbeatdown.png

https://i.ibb.co/pvp6Rwb/healernotgettingbeaten.png

Anyone can construct artificial situations in which Circular and Triangular AoEs are more effective. Mob positions are not static. This is an incredibly basic pick up pattern for any tank to do, regardless of whether you have muscle memory around using a Circle or a Triangle. You should be able to do this without thinking.

I can see why the dev team chose to standardize the base AoE combo across all jobs. It's about having a consistent muscle memory on your base combo across multiple jobs, not about Circles being easier to use or more effective. We still see Triangular and Line AoEs show up in job kits outside of the base AoE combo i.e. Guillotine and Grim Swathe. I can also see why some WAR players would be upset at having to change up their muscle memory over this.

What I don't understand, however, is why the OP is trying to force a change on all tanks instead of just talking about WAR. And on top of that, they keep necroing this thread instead of letting it just atrophy naturally of disinterest. This is your problem. You want a change, ask for it on your job. Leave the rest of us out of it.

It is, however, a little funny that they keep crying "think of the healers and DPS!" as if 3/4th of the healers didn't also have centered AoEs and stand on top of the tanks either way, and about half of the dps as well.

I'll repost my raid guide as well since people are having such a hard time understanding this

https://i.postimg.cc/C55cbvv6/CONE-A...K-TOOL-101.png

If you weren't doing this before, you're admitting to bad tanking. There's no discussion on that point, not a single thing about personal preference or comfort, this is just one of your jobs as a tank. You hold agro, you POSITION for your party, that's the point.
Your parties clearing in spite of your awful tanking is not a good reason for the rest of us to lose a tool we were still in the middle of using

I think we should have the option for a cone or circle. All tanks have a different way their aoe's interact. Warriors was fun and I enjoyed it, but if the reason it was changed because little timmy wanted to play warrior and couldn't figure out how a cone works just no. What the actually heck. You have 3 other tanks go play those. It just reeked of one person who doesn't even play any of the tanks wanted a tank, they were toying with the idea of playing, but couldn't because cone too hard. We fixed the evil cone for little timmy so now he can still choose not to play any of the tanks as he was already doing, but now people who actually play the tanks get one less tool.

My argument in favor of this, is giving the tank more tools at their disposal to manipulate mobs. The good tanks will use it, the bad tanks will do as the always have done, aoe in circle hit zero mobs, and keep running in a direction having no aggro on anything and get angry when you inform them of a enemy list that has color codes to see whether you have aggro or not on some mobs. Sometimes if you do not hit the mob, most of the time it will not even show up in the list. Which should also be changed so you know if your team might have aggro on something you have not hit and just do not know it.

The circle aoe's only are giving people bad habits in positioning mobs. It may not be a huge problem for many, but watching numerous people just aoeing nothing is just not fun. If you have a situation where the mobs are huge like in the twinning they will jiggle out of your circle aoe and you have to use voke or shield lob. Boy you did want to continue your magic rotation in aoe but now you have to stop because two huge dudes jiggled when overpower would just hit them no problem allowing for your flow in your rotation to not be interrupted. Sure it isn't a huge deal, but it is still annoying, and this could easily be fix by giving more tools to do a job.

Some might have exclusively played drk and warrior due to enjoying how the cones interact with mobs and the type of pulling you could do over the type of pulling done with gun and paladin. I know it is hard to imagine people having issues and maybe they should git gud but it was a comfort quality of life thing in a game the mobs can be extremely annoying to deal with. This may not be a huge deal, but maybe they need to change something everyone else is comfortable with so they understand. If we want them to all be circles why can they not be cones too. Some have an easier time and have stopped playing a class they enjoyed because of this.

Though it is amusing that after it is removed people want to see proof of how this could be easier for some people. When you don't have a private server with old variations of skills. That and finding a video that isn't a popular final fantasy streamer or youtuber singing praises to the game are not hard enough to find without making your search look amazing with + + - + " ". Looking up old animations and sounds is hard enough because the videos either do not exist or are being hidden by the fact they are older not to mention named poorly or have music over the sounds. I wanted to hear what old pre EW dark knight animation sounds were like because I swore they were using a similar to cure 1 for Bloodspiller or Quietus but I can never know for sure how it sounded.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Anyone can construct artificial situations in which Circular and Triangular AoEs are more effective. Mob positions are not static. This is an incredibly basic pick up pattern for any tank to do, regardless of whether you have muscle memory around using a Circle or a Triangle. You should be able to do this without thinking.

I can see why the dev team chose to standardize the base AoE combo across all jobs. It's about having a consistent muscle memory on your base combo across multiple jobs, not about Circles being easier to use or more effective. We still see Triangular and Line AoEs show up in job kits outside of the base AoE combo i.e. Guillotine and Grim Swathe. I can also see why some WAR players would be upset at having to change up their muscle memory over this.

What I don't understand, however, is why the OP is trying to force a change on all tanks instead of just talking about WAR. And on top of that, they keep necroing this thread instead of letting it just atrophy naturally of disinterest. This is your problem. You want a change, ask for it on your job. Leave the rest of us out of it.

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OP is being tongue in cheek, I'm sure. Though he does have a point, having nearly 50% more range in the direction that matters most is rather a big advantage. Regardless, I'd never support making everything the same, whether it be circles, cones, or rectangles.

That said I don't get the consistency argument, at all, if you play a different job but don't actually want to play a different job then...why? Jobs are already way too samey as it is.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Anyone can construct artificial situations in which Circular and Triangular AoEs are more effective. Mob positions are not static.

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I can post low quality meme video instead using Dark Knight. Mob positions are pretty darn static though outside of some ARR/Post ARR dungeons with pathing mobs.

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

It is, however, a little funny that they keep crying "think of the healers and DPS!" as if 3/4th of the healers didn't also have centered AoEs and stand on top of the tanks either way, and about half of the dps as well.

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Wat?

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Originally Posted by Kallis

I'll repost my raid guide as well since people are having such a hard time understanding this

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Many thanks! Attempted the conveying of this in my post. Most tanks I encounter cannot even understand the need to actually hit everything before settling so no surprised basic positioning escapes them. They just blunder forward haphazardly not a provoke/ranged skill in sight body pulling everything. Feel for Sages aoe-ing on the move with Kardia applied. No surprised either that the need to *gasp* target something bothers them. Press tab hard. Press d-pad/trigger + shoulder button also hard.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

Sometimes if you do not hit the mob, most of the time it will not even show up in the list. Which should also be changed so you know if your team might have aggro on something you have not hit and just do not know it.

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This is most feist inducing and I hate everything it stands for. Must use mob color outline (changeable in settings). Mobs will have darker outline on their hitboxes when you have aggro of them. Flood of Dankness is fricken great for this. Missed a mob? Shoot that bad boy backwards and it will hit things because it is a cone.

'How did all these triangles make a circle? I just- no, no it's fine, it's fine. It doesn't bother me. It bothers me. It bothers me a lot! And that one's still green.'

Honestly, it really doesn't matter, because mobs are not static. And by not static, I mean the instant that you engage them, they start moving. There are plenty of spread out spawn configurations that require you to anticipate where the mobs will move to and require you to time your AoE. I should be able to give you polygons at random and you should be able to figure out how position yourself correctly to use each one optimally, if you have the spatial reasoning required to be a good tank. I remember that there were some WAR tanks who couldn't figure out how to do certain add pick-ups in ARR/Heavensward without cross-class Flash, which was a dps loss compared to Overpower (Imdagud and Alexander spring immediately to mind). Were those specific configurations trickier for triangles than for circles? Possibly (your mileage may vary). Were they impossible to do with a triangular Overpower? Absolutely not. So this debate itself is nearly ten years old.

There are some jobs that have to work around multiple types of AoE shapes (gasp!) on a daily basis like DRK and RPR. Generally these are for unique actions that are not part of your base AoE combo because they're timer-based AoEs or resource based GCDs.

I can't speak for the specifics, but I do know that the SAM upgrade from a triangular Fuga to a circular Fugo suggests that this is about creating a consistent 'language' around how jobs work at an extremely basic level of play. Now if you and other WAR players decide that you want this reversed such that you have a circle on the first step and a triangle on the second, on the basis that you are completely incapable of tanking without this specific shape combination, be my guest. In fact, take any combination of polygons that you like! What I request is that you campaign for it in a WAR-specific thread, so that you don't force your preferences on the other three tank jobs. If we wanted it, we would be asking for it.

Again, let this thread fade away, and express your preferences in a WAR-specific thread if it suits. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by castillle

Are you seriously blaming the dps because you cant be bothered to position mobs?

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LOL, I can't even...

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Here is one low quality meme post to assist in greater understanding;

https://i.ibb.co/ZB4jkyC/badtanku.png

https://i.ibb.co/Pgx301H/goodtanku.png

https://i.ibb.co/bj4hrfk/healerbeatdown.png

https://i.ibb.co/pvp6Rwb/healernotgettingbeaten.png

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this is kinda false...

mobs would try to pile around you so that they can all reach you with attacks

it is not nice of you to be so completely biased and show a tight pack in a conal scenario as opposed to the loosest formation ive ever seen in a circle situation, you can easily move into/under the biggest/center add so that everything else is neatly AND tightly packed

let me ask you this: what do you do when old conal would not have hit everything from that position? Exactly! Some sort of ranged attack or even just face pull, let them get closer until you can easily hit everything with a circle aoe

I still cannot believe that you are effectively crying about DUNGEON balance (one of the most casual face roll contents in the game)

this thread is not blowing up because majority of the people are actually happy with this change (nobody goes on forums unless it is about drama or complaining)

your opinion is heard, but no thank you, now move along pls

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

LOL, I can't even...

let me ask you this: what do you do when old conal would not have hit everything from that position? Exactly! Some sort of ranged attack or even just face pull, let them get closer until you can easily hit everything with a circle aoe

I still cannot believe that you are effectively crying about DUNGEON balance (one of the most casual face roll contents in the game)

your opinion is heard, but no thank you, now move along pls

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LOL, you are literally the same person who tried to convince people(if that is the right word) that the cirlce over power is more dps because you can hit more stuff. then start to be dismisssive about "DUNGEON balance" when people show the usefulness about cones in some situations.

also. when i would miss some add with old overpower, there was always another move to follow up with. have you heard of mithril tempest. It was literally there. the thing you are talking about. Hmmmm

you wanna know what else wasnt blowing up on these forums before 6.1? complaints about overpower being a cone.

you also keep mentioning that mobs keep piling around you. you are not wrong. nobody says that it isn't the case. so... are you going to answer my question or not?

once you have aggroed all the mobs. do you stand still and just keep spinning your axe even when aoe are aimed at you spot?
If you answer with 'ofcourse i move' then what is the problem with postitioning for overpower? is it missing mobs or not liking cones? Stop ignoring mythril tempest! missing out on damage? isn't DUNGEON content? why would you cry about that?

i cant help but feel that you come off as lazy.

why do i care about old overpower?it is not numbers or it being better. no it is about gameplay differences. we have 4 god damn tank jobs. there is no reason to have them all be the same. dont dismis it for being something small. that is very importend in job diversity. and dont tell me cones are bad. it was there for 8 years mainly used for DUNGEON content. it worked back then. it worked pre 6.1. I like it for keeping my brain active when pulling and aoe mobs.
the only reason why some people like the change is because they are lazy, change my mind.

why would reaper, a new job, still have cones when sam and war don't?

I like circle AoEs it’s particularly useful for getting hate on a lot of enemies without being careful of positioning honestly never had a problem with aggro so yea.

maybe you dont miss hits, good for you, there are plenty of windowlickers out there who do because they can't be arsed to move/dont care or whatever other reason, and I don't blame them, it is annoying af

usefulness in SOME situations huh, circle aoes are useful all the time, the real niche getting highlighted in favour of the cone is the ability to hit "everything" from a little bit further away when pulling, mob stacking advantage is outright misinformation

uhm yeah aoe comboes are a thing, how is that in favour of cones exactly? If you miss something with circle overpower you can just go hit it with cirle mythril follow up

damned if I know, I'm new to the forums, I can tell you though warrior was my first job and the cone bugged me ever since the aoe combo was acquired

I keep having to mention that mobs pile around you cause the images I quoted VERY CLEARLY IGNORE THAT FACT, just look at that beautiful stack in the conal scenario, look at it! Thats never gonna happen!

unless it can be stunned/interjected, generally yeah though really no reason to bother unless it gives you a nasty debuff and the healer does not esuna you (like exhaust or whatever), but again, that is not a fair comparison: how often do you need to move due to an aoe compared to having to move cause your rotation demands it to hit everything, its like you need to do 10 pushups before you can have your next slice of pizza

aoe shapes are not job defining characteristics, that stuff comes from job mechanics/gauge and rotations/abilities

you want change for the sake of change, the thread is arguing for all tank aoe conals, where is the diversity in that huh?

if you want to think, dungeons are already way too easy for you, go do extremes, savage or ultimates or something

my main issue is consistency, I dont want one conal when all my other kit is circle wth... similarly, I could live with all conal aoes, though I'd very likely dislike it greatly (having to have a target, cant aim manually etc etc) in essence circle aoes work better in practice

why does reaper have conal aoes? Idfk, silly design if you ask me, hopefully that will be turned into a circle too since the rest of the kit it mostly circle already anyway

I really miss the time someone told my friend that overpower was not popular in their rotation, and took it off of their hotbar because it just wasn't a pretty enough skill for them to think about using. Those were good times. I am sure they are using it now....that its a circle.

Remember who was being a condescending dush nozzle first when I rip you a new one :) Alrighty sweet cheeks, keep that short guy energy for someone else it is not attractive.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

mobs would try to pile around you so that they can all reach you with attacks

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That is their initial position? I am not in the aggro range yet? Derp.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

it is not nice of you to be so completely biased and show a tight pack in a conal scenario as opposed to the loosest formation ive ever seen in a circle situation, you can easily move into/under the biggest/center add so that everything else is neatly AND tightly packed

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Oh shoot! They are not? I did try super duper hard to place them almost exactly in same spots for both in my post labeled "low quality meme post". Gonna go back and re-edit that juuuust for you.. not.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

let me ask you this: what do you do when old conal would not have hit everything from that position? Exactly! Some sort of ranged attack or even just face pull, let them get closer until you can easily hit everything with a circle aoe

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Ahhh the gotcha, my favorite! Wanna know? Wanna know what I would do? I would voke/tomahawk into overpower as they moved closer followed by backwards overpower for a double hit. Same thing I still do with Flood of Dankness. Or you can wiff your circle aoe because of server ticks whatever boats your float.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

I still cannot believe that you are effectively crying about DUNGEON balance (one of the most casual face roll contents in the game)

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By the twelve you are insufferable. If only your big big numbers could make up for your tiny tiny.. ego.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

this thread is not blowing up because majority of the people are actually happy with this change (nobody goes on forums unless it is about drama or complaining)

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Why would I care what this thread does you absolute trog? Oh thank goodness Chopstix says that no body cares. Pack it up boys! We ship out at 0300, do not be late!

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

your opinion is heard, but no thank you, now move along pls

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You first :)

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Originally Posted by RayneBoemir

I like circle AoEs it’s particularly useful for getting hate on a lot of enemies without being careful of positioning honestly never had a problem with aggro so yea.

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You're on a TANK job why in the gaddamn 7th circle of hell are you NOT being careful of positioning? So you're admitting to being lazy and a bad tank?

It's just so obvious this change is only viewed with a tiny amount of positivity (mostly just completely neutral), by a small minority of lazy ass tanks who were making things harder for their party to begin with. Now even more tanks are just gonna pick up the job, pull a pack and stand in place like a dope. This makes the game SO much better....

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

this thread is not blowing up because majority of the people are actually happy with this change (nobody goes on forums unless it is about drama or complaining)

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As an FYI, from what I have gathered, basically limited to my FC, anyone who tanked frequently hated the Overpower change, the ones that liked it tanked very rarely.

Of those that tanked very rarely, how many do you think have started tanking more because of it? None.

If the goal was to make it more accessible to get more people to tank/use Warrior, based on my very very small sample size, it has not worked. Our resident Warrior hated the change.

I would even put a hypothesis in place that, the people who tanked often hated the change and the ones that did not liked the change or are indifferent, however, it still did not incentivise them to tank more, meaning you only annoyed the people who did play the job and potentially made them stop tanking as a Warrior in dungeons.

Also, with proper control of mobs, they did not circle around you and it has been said countless times. You need to keep them infront of you and not around you. By keeping them around you you are making the run less efficient for everyone.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

short

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Look who's talking :^)

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

As an FYI, from what I have gathered, basically limited to my FC, anyone who tanked frequently hated the Overpower change, the ones that liked it tanked very rarely.

Of those that tanked very rarely, how many do you think have started tanking more because of it? None.

If the goal was to make it more accessible to get more people to tank/use Warrior, based on my very very small sample size, it has not worked. Our resident Warrior hated the change.

I would even put a hypothesis in place that, the people who tanked often hated the change and the ones that did not liked the change or are indifferent, however, it still did not incentivise them to tank more, meaning you only annoyed the people who did play the job and potentially made them stop tanking as a Warrior in dungeons.

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Certainly the case for me. I've only tanked (dungeons) for members of my static, and only because it basically means instant queues. I mean, I could play some other tank as "protest" but they are now all pretty much the same when it comes to dungeons anyway, so why bother...

I'll also add that generally when I explain how I actually used Coneverpower many do actually agree the change was bad, or at the very least, unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

LOL, I can't even...



this is kinda false...

mobs would try to pile around you so that they can all reach you with attacks

it is not nice of you to be so completely biased and show a tight pack in a conal scenario as opposed to the loosest formation ive ever seen in a circle situation, you can easily move into/under the biggest/center add so that everything else is neatly AND tightly packed

let me ask you this: what do you do when old conal would not have hit everything from that position? Exactly! Some sort of ranged attack or even just face pull, let them get closer until you can easily hit everything with a circle aoe

I still cannot believe that you are effectively crying about DUNGEON balance (one of the most casual face roll contents in the game)

this thread is not blowing up because majority of the people are actually happy with this change (nobody goes on forums unless it is about drama or complaining)

your opinion is heard, but no thank you, now move along pls

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No, they're actually right. The mobs will eventually spread apart during a pull once time passes or enemies die. They also stop grouping up unless the tank is consistently shifting themselves slightly to make the enemies regroup up. This is especially true with enemies with a large hitbox (ex: dragons). The problem with circle AoEs is mostly that the tanks don't feel the requirement to move as all the mobs, even when spread apart, will still be in their AoE range.

This is what drives me crazy when I have to DPS as a healer. My Toxikon II will either not hit all the targets because at some point, the middle enemy dies and the tank is still spinning in a circle and not pulling them closer with the cone after the remaining enemies fan out or can no longer be in proximity range when targeted individually because their hitbox is too big. Which is what brings https://i.ibb.co/bj4hrfk/healerbeatdown.png this back.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

No, they're actually right. The mobs will eventually spread apart during a pull once time passes or enemies die. They also stop grouping up unless the tank is consistently shifting themselves slightly to make the enemies regroup up. This is especially true with enemies with a large hitbox (ex: dragons). The problem with circle AoEs is mostly that the tanks don't feel the requirement to move as all the mobs, even when spread apart, will still be in their AoE range.

This is what drives me crazy when I have to DPS as a healer. My Toxikon II will either not hit all the targets because at some point, the middle enemy dies and the tank is still spinning in a circle and not pulling them closer with the cone after the remaining enemies fan out or can no longer be in proximity range when targeted individually because their hitbox is too big. Which is what brings https://i.ibb.co/bj4hrfk/healerbeatdown.png this back.

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That is just bad tanking. Conal aoe does not fix that if the tank doesnt care. I always drag stuff together into a tight pack. Y in the world r u using toxikon II, isnt that the gauge ability with up to 3 charges? just spam ur circle aoe in the middle of the group. Saying stuff like that really makes me doubt ur performance. No wonder u want conals.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

That is just bad tanking. Conal aoe does not fix that if the tank doesnt care. I always drag stuff together into a tight pack. Y in the world r u using toxikon II, isnt that the gauge ability with up to 3 charges? just spam ur circle aoe in the middle of the group. Saying stuff like that really makes me doubt ur performance. No wonder u want conals.

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Cause I'm still using it when the party is moving to the next pull. I can pre-cast 4 shields, and if the shields break because the tank isn't sprinting (and I mean when I'm literally behind the tank, but I have instant cast DoTs so I can pull them first), then I'm getting additional stacks. At best, I get 4 additional ones (DPS are also right next to the tank and took damage). At worst, I get 1-2 because the tank generates one and I generate one from kardion before tank completely establishes aggro.

Also, because Toxikon II gains highest potency at 2 targets (330 first target + 165 falloff on remaining vs Dyskrasia II 170 potency on all targets), it's more preferable to hold onto Toxikon II until more enemies die or if you cannot target the enemies from a distance (AoE blocking the way from using Dsykrasia outside of sage's free oGCD healing or running between pulls). All healers lack an AoE DoT, so the time spent between pulls is spent with my single target DoT Eukrasian Dosis, which is generally more than enough for me to hold onto Toxikon II stacks and swap over to Dykrasia while running until the pull stabilizes.

Like... 3 Toxikon II stacks from loading into the instance is nice and all, but it doesn't change the fact that you still have to generate addersting yourself between pulls. The players who don't do this don't care about it because the gain is very marginal, but I'll be damned if I don't because pulls get so boring anyway with 1 button DPS spam.

Aoe shapes are certainly not a defining character of a job. They are one of many tool the devs use to make the aoe rotation of each job different.

Not every job need a different shaped aoe. We dont need that many. Heck, as of before 6.1 we had a good variation in aoe rotations. May it be in the shape or how they have to takle it.
Dragoon is different with all the lines while using it jumps inbetween. Red mage is juggling between targeted circles and cone/line. Samurai was dancing togther with warrior and dark knight. Even the new job reaper has a cone even do it does circle aoe aswell. Ninja has to pray that the tank doesnt move the pile from doton, followed up with a targeting aoe in katon(which gives some mobility) into it 1-2 combo in which ninja wants to be in the middle of that pile.
the healers have something different going on with their aoe aswell even tho they are all just circles.

So yeah. A shape of an aoe rotation will effect how some job plays and that matters when we have 19 of them. It keeps them fresh from each other. I am not asking for stupid aoes like a jewish star, the moon and star from the turkish flag or a constant shape changing aoe.
Circles, lines, maybe half cicle? And ofcourse cones.

Cones and to an extend lines are just as functional as circle. Just because some hate it doesnt mean it is bad.

Funny how i wrote this on a thread with a memesish title.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

That is just bad tanking. Conal aoe does not fix that if the tank doesnt care. I always drag stuff together into a tight pack.

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HOLY WALKING CONTRADICTION, BATMAN! Do I have to explain tanking to you , to make this point? If you are properly dragging stuff together into a tight pack i.e. as things die off and that pack is becoming increasing chaotic, you are NOT hitting everything with a 5y circle AoE, the cone AoE does exactly fix that problem that was the whole point.
The cone gave you an extra 3y max range to work with , without sacrificing the potency of an ~80sq.y. option.
This is an awesome TOOL that only WAR had access to, and I contend after hearing all the arguments in favor of the cone removal, that this should have been an option to every tank. The reason it wasn't, seems to me , the only reason you never understood this point and why I had to give up my amazing tool. That feels dirty rotten, man, gaddamn.

Go ahead and say that extra 3y didn't matter, that it's fine for us tanks to be missing half the pack whenever we reposition because, well, we still hold agro either way with how braindead emnity is in this game. I mean that's a perfectly valid position to have, I would still disagree with you in that it feels awful to now miss a bunch of mobs I used to be able to hit just fine (on top of OTHER use cases I'm not even going into to stay on the topic of responding to your point!), but to act like the cone didnt' have a legitimate use that now feels awful to do stuff without, is just completely backwards and wrong. I think it shows to me you never realized you could do this, or you just didn't care, which again is like whatever fine, but what it's certainly NOT is a valid argument for the cone AoE being bad.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

Y in the world r u using toxikon II, isnt that the gauge ability with up to 3 charges? just spam ur circle aoe in the middle of the group. Saying stuff like that really makes me doubt ur performance. No wonder u want conals.

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I swear you're either hard trolling now, or seriously projecting here. I'm not going to spend even more time explaining why your advice is just gods-awful healing; clearly it's your performance, and therefor your opinion on game balance as a whole, that is being called into doubt here.

Either way, I think the point has been made. Not a single good argument for the removal of the cone. It was fine for an experiment to try it out, during raid releases that don't even feature encounters this mattered for, I guess.
But surely before the release of any new dungeon content, this needs to be fixed, right guys? There's no reason for this to go on for 3 expansions before they finally "look into it" and just easily fix a small mistake they made in 6.xx?

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Funny how i wrote this on a thread with a memesish title.

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LOL same, I'm thinking this aughtta go in a more serious or productive thread? But at this point idc, i think the point needs to be spread to any and all threads it is relevant and on topic to. There's only a handful of them anyway and the devs need to know this isn't just a small vocal minority thing, this is most WAR players putting lots of time into WAR. There is a clear difference between those players and the ones that picked up WAR, levelled it to 10 unlocked OP and thought "dang, I don't know how this thing works." And just never worked to build upon that thought. I don't care if they put in the work or not, it just shouldn't have come back to bite ME in the ass, like wtf did I do devs?? What did I do to incur your wrath doth so ???

Cones are better, circles are easier.

That's all, you can stop arguing now.

if the devs actually care about pve contents like dungeons, they wouldnt make war so strong with bloodwhetting, look at how bad drk is in dungeon and their miserable leveling experience, drk couldn't use stalwart soul in a lower level content until recently
if the players don't group mobs tight for a cone aoe, they probably don't care enough to do their rotation either, so idk why they even made this change, like they tryna fix a problem that wasn't really there and upset 90% of the playerbase so that the 10% can auto pilot

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Originally Posted by AprilHanabira

if the devs actually care about pve contents like dungeons, they wouldnt make war so strong with bloodwhetting, look at how bad drk is in dungeon and their miserable leveling experience, drk couldn't use stalwart soul in a lower level content until recently

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I recently levelled a DRK alt who used a story skip and not having Stalwart Soul didnt really feel bad. Warrior on the other hand feels absolutely terrible until you get Inner release. You have berserk but your AoE combo doesnt give you gauge and your only source of gauge in AoE packs is infuriate. DRK has a similar problem but you get your bloodspiller at 62 you get your blood gauge from blood weapon at 66, and Delirium at 68 which it fixes itself fast. WAR on the other hand gets inner beast at 35, infuriate at 50, inner release all the way at 70, and mithril tempest will only give gauge after 74. It felt utterly miserable compared to DRK.

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Originally Posted by AprilHanabira

if the devs actually care about pve contents like dungeons, they wouldnt make war so strong with bloodwhetting, look at how bad drk is in dungeon and their miserable leveling experience, drk couldn't use stalwart soul in a lower level content until recently
if the players don't group mobs tight for a cone aoe, they probably don't care enough to do their rotation either, so idk why they even made this change, like they tryna fix a problem that wasn't really there and upset 90% of the playerbase so that the 10% can auto pilot

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Honestly I'd be surprised if DRK doesn't get changed so it's as braindead in dungeons as the other tanks. I mean, if they thought WAR's AoE was a problem, then, well, I'm sure Holy's delay might even be on the list of things that are "too hard" to use...

Make no mistake, DRK is perfectly viable. Sure it takes more effort from the healer, but a good DRK can be healed through 80->90 dungeons[*] just fine with mostly oGCDs on at least three out of the four healer jobs (can't speak to AST yet, though I'd be surprised if it were much harder than WHM). That said, a bad DRK is going to give the healer panic attacks all dungeon, while a bad WAR is mostly just keeping the healer awake (and other tank jobs fall somewhere in between those extremes).

[*] If the party keeps up a brisk pace <82 can be a challenge because lack of Oblation means they're likely to run out of cooldowns on the regular. I'd argue the biggest QoL change for DRK levelling would be to unlock Oblation at 81 so it's available for the first EW dungeon.

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Originally Posted by marelooke

I mean, if they thought WAR's AoE was a problem, then, well, I'm sure Holy's delay might even be on the list of things that are "too hard" to use...

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now we're just giving them ideas. Well, now that Overpower's a shitty circle, lillies are free instacast Cure II's that are also DPS neutral with glare (for some reason) , and holy's totally unbalanced delay is removed... what's next.... do we even need cast times for spells, really? Seems a little unfair that casters can't move while casting, I mean look at the phys ranged ! So let's take that out too, and while we're at it why do we need to do our full combo to build job gauge/resources? Shouldn't those just refresh to maximum at the start of a fight? And right after being spent, too?

This is making the game sooo much easier, so much BETTER ! Gods of game design !

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Originally Posted by Kallis

now we're just giving them ideas. Well, now that Overpower's a shitty circle, lillies are free instacast Cure II's that are also DPS neutral with glare (for some reason) , and holy's totally unbalanced delay is removed... what's next.... do we even need cast times for spells, really? Seems a little unfair that casters can't move while casting, I mean look at the phys ranged ! So let's take that out too, and while we're at it why do we need to do our full combo to build job gauge/resources? Shouldn't those just refresh to maximum at the start of a fight? And right after being spent, too?

This is making the game sooo much easier, so much BETTER ! Gods of game design !

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It makes sense though, effective use of Holy requires one to consider their positioning, especially when mobs are moving. I think we established that having to consider positioning at all is bad (surely we didn't retire those braincells we used for Overpower just to get them out of retirement for Holy!), ergo, Holy's current state is problematic.

In line with this I'd also petition to remove every single positional, make Dragoon's AoEs circles, and do the same for DRK's Flood of Darkness.

As a matter of fact, just make everything a circle, why have to face the enemy at all?

(this post may contain copious amounts of sarcasm, please consume with moderation... ;))

agreed if Overpower has to be a circle, all the rest should go that way as well.
No more cones, lines, nothing

We'll see the "tbh i don't really mind either way" people start crawling out of the woodwork when they realize, that yes, AoE effective range MATTERS. DPS are using front-facing AoE's to stay out of the middle of the crowd, Tanks should have been using cones to effectively position large packs of mobs without losing uptime an anyone. And also, that no, more max area is NOT necessarily better.
Not even being sarcastic either just finish butchering all the rest of them. Either that, or fix AoEs for all tanks, remove the association of cones w/ WAR and make them all use them

I still think this should be done with just two different combo-openers. Make AoE combo with either skill, let us stick whichever one (or BOTH) on our hotbars, call it a day. Who is not happy in that scenario?

Man that would be great. Instead of having everyone crying about not liking the aoe combo cause of wrong shape. This goes for both parties. We could have a seprate tab in skill list which allows us to chose how our aoe shape looks like. Sure there mighy be no difference between job with this.
But now that choice would feel more personal. Both parties choose what they like and we can both be happy.

And to the man above me. It doesnt even need to be cones. Paladin's blade of faith combo and warriors primal rend also like the mobs to be infront because of how targetting circles work.

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Originally Posted by Kallis

I still think this should be done with just two different combo-openers. Make AoE combo with either skill, let us stick whichever one (or BOTH) on our hotbars, call it a day. Who is not happy in that scenario?

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That's exactly what I was hoping for with Fuko and Fuga mastery. Alas...