Trick Attack

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

That would matter if flogs actually gave the damage to the person maximizing things during TA. As it stands, everything is given to the Ninja, and that is garbage.

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How is that garbage. Giving damage to jobs feeding into buffs is inherently flawed, because you'd then want to bring jobs that have buffs just to bolster your own (essentially, just look at aDPS).

rDPS is RAID DPS. NIN brings Trick Attack, which allows players to feed into their raid buff to boost the overall damage of the raid. What the NIN brings should go back to the NIN.

Besides, the argument is not great. What FFLogs does is irrelevant and the point still stands that removing the only 1m raid buff from the game will make playing other jobs that had the option to play into Trick lackluster.

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

Take it up with the people in charge of fflogs then. I'm only complaining here for the small chance the devs care about what the eng nin community has to say. If the game is being balanced around what the fflogs team does, that would be hilarious. Drks and whatever class with resources don't take advantage of trick for the logs, they do it to increase party dps lmao

It's a team game

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So how is that going to hurt anything? The damage will just go to the ninja now, as it will output more on its own.

TA moved from a raid buff into a personal buff. That is a good thing, imo. Especially considering Ninja could swing wildly on its contribution depending on composition. Additionally, the haven’t cut it out entirely. They just moved it to a 120 and shifted the skill that applies it.

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Originally Posted by kackal_Jackal

How is that garbage. Giving damage to jobs feeding into buffs is inherently flawed, because you'd then want to bring jobs that have buffs just to bolster your own (essentially, just look at aDPS).

rDPS is RAID DPS. NIN brings Trick Attack, which allows players to feed into their raid buff to boost the overall damage of the raid. What the NIN brings should go back to the NIN.

Besides, the argument is not great. What FFLogs does is irrelevant and the point still stands that removing the only 1m raid buff from the game will make playing other jobs that had the option to play into Trick lackluster.

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If you think SE doesn’t know about flogs and take that into consideration then you are naive. They also plainly stated they wanted to bring raid buff windows in line with each other. Specifically on the 120 timer. Whether that is good or bad is up for debate, but it is irrelevant at this point.

People just don't get it. They only care about numbers and balance. I am by no means a good ninja player, but I find trick attack fun. I find mashing everything into trick attack fun. I find allowing my party to take advantage of my trick during odd minutes fun. I enjoy the “challenge” of keeping my tricks on time every minute to help my party do more damage fun. This hurts my enjoyment of the job, and what a lot of players find fun about the job. Im not a slave to damage and balance and logs. I just like the job.

And the fact people still say "they haven't cut it out entirely". They kept the icon and the name of the move, but they have changed the purpose of the move, and what the move does. You think drk's old delirium is still in the game just because the name is still around? it if looks like a duck, or doesn't look like a duck rather, it's not a duck. If you keep the animation for communio and the name but make it a healing spell, that's not the same move

Also if square really does balance the game around fflogs, I will be very amused. The guys at fflogs better get a paycheck from yoshida every month if they do half of their job for them. Square's balancing team being slaves to a formula people came up with on the Internet is just funny.

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

People just don't get it. They only care about numbers and balance. I am by no means a good ninja player, but I find trick attack fun. I find mashing everything into trick attack fun. I find allowing my party to take advantage of my trick during odd minutes fun. I enjoy the “challenge” of keeping my tricks on time every minute to help my party do more damage fun. This hurts my enjoyment of the job, and what a lot of players find fun about the job. Im not a slave to damage and balance and logs. I just like the job.

And the fact people still say "they haven't cut it out entirely". They kept the icon and the name of the move, but they have changed the purpose of the move, and what the move does. You think drk's old delirium is still in the game just because the name is still around? it if looks like a duck, or doesn't look like a duck rather, it's not a duck. If you keep the animation for communion and the name but make it a healing spell, that's not the same move

Also if square really does balance the game around fflogs, I will be very amused. The guys at fflogs better get a paycheck from yoshida every month if they do half of their job for them.

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Are you not helping out your party by using TA properly and pumping out more personal damage? You just aren’t relying on your party to maximize it every 60s now. I don’t see the issue.

People screech incessantly over FFlogs (usually incorrectly). You think they don’t take that into account and balance around it? Come on, man.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

So how is that going to hurt anything? The damage will just go to the ninja now, as it will output more on its own.

TA moved from a raid buff into a personal buff. That is a good thing, imo. Especially considering Ninja could swing wildly on its contribution depending on composition. Additionally, the haven’t cut it out entirely. They just moved it to a 120 and shifted the skill that applies it.

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you're arguing numbers and people are arguing gameplay. The changes will alter the rotation yet again in this expansion and the raid buff is moved to a skill that don't make much sense in the general ninja community. Job interaction is a fundamental aspect of a mmorpg limiting it would make the game truely boreing, and if you're concerned about dps swings because of compostion then dancers shouldn't even exist in the game.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

If you think SE doesn’t know about flogs and take that into consideration then you are naive. They also plainly stated they wanted to bring raid buff windows in line with each other. Specifically on the 120 timer. Whether that is good or bad is up for debate, but it is irrelevant at this point.

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If you're going to argue, at least don't pull assumptions out of thin air lol. I never said SE doesn't know about FFLogs, it's just irrelevant for the argument about Trick Attack. Anything regarding numbers and how a job falls into meta is irrelevant when discussing how they're changing a job at the fundamental level. Homogenizing jobs for 'synergy' is lame.

60s raid buff aligns with 120s raid buffs anyway, so their reasoning for changing it still makes no sense.

Me can buff party. Me enjoy buffing party. Apes together strong. Ninja is buff job, remove buff, ninjas sad.

If the devs ever remove dance partner and devilment but increase saber dance to do 200 more potency, the personal dps slaves are gonna be nose deep in yoshida. They literally can not fathom that some people like jobs that have powerful or interesting buffs in exchange for less personal dps. Why have any buffs at all? just make all your moves do more damage 4head

Although if square cares about fflogs because of people screeching, that gives me hope. I will screech even louder here so square will know that they are making a dumb decision

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

Me can buff party. Me enjoy buffing party. Apes together strong. Ninja is buff job, remove buff, ninjas sad.

If the devs ever remove dance partner and devilment but increase saber dance to do 200 more potency, the personal dps slaves are gonna be nose deep in yoshida. They literally can not fathom that some people like jobs that have powerful or interesting buffs in exchange for less personal dps. Why have any buffs at all? just make all your moves do more damage 4head

Although if square cares about fflogs because of people screeching, that gives me hope. I will screech even louder here so square will know that they are making a dumb decision

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The difference is mostly the shift in how the devs see the jobs. NIN was for the longest the "support" melee DPS. It was the only one of its kind, and is one of the hardest melee to play for very little payout. They may have decided that it was either dumb down the gameplay and take things out of NIN (which would have enraged people more), or just bring it in line with other melee DPS without having to gut the kit.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The difference is mostly the shift in how the devs see the jobs. NIN was for the longest the "support" melee DPS. It was the only one of its kind, and is one of the hardest melee to play for very little payout. They may have decided that it was either dumb down the gameplay and take things out of NIN (which would have enraged people more), or just bring it in line with other melee DPS without having to gut the kit.

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This is one hill I'm willing to die on when it comes to squares decision. I 100% disagree that all jobs should be easy enough and accessible to all players. There should be varying difficulties for jobs ranging from easier to harder so they can actually appeal to the majority of their players. I can by no means play black mage or monks perfectly but the fact that there is a imo a very difficult job in the game adds to my enjoyment rather than detracts.

As far as I'm concerned, changing trick to what they are proposing is gutting the kit. I know square wants to bring all the Melee dps in line and homogenise everything like they have with the Healers, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I will screech as much as possible in the hopes they will listen to feedback. I love this job, in its current state. I love trick. I will try my damndest to stop it from happening, even if I know its fruitless.

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Originally Posted by dadong

This is one hill I'm willing to die on when it comes to squares decision. I 100% disagree that all jobs should be easy enough and accessible to all players. There should be varying difficulties for jobs ranging from easier to harder so they can actually appeal to the majority of their players. I can by no means play black mage or monks perfectly but the fact that there is a imo a very difficult job in the game adds to my enjoyment rather than detracts.

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Luckily they are not removing anything from Ninja, just moving the raidwide buff from TA to Mug. Meaning the entirety of the kit is still there.

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

As far as I'm concerned, changing trick to what they are proposing is gutting the kit. I know square wants to bring all the Melee dps in line and homogenise everything like they have with the Healers, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I will screech as much as possible in the hopes they will listen to feedback. I love this job, in its current state. I love trick. I will try my damndest to stop it from happening, even if I know its fruitless.

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No, this is not gutting, this will never be gutting. You want to know what real gutting looks like? DRK going from HW to SB lost their second attack combo (the original Delirium). They lost their DoT (Scourge). Reprisal and Low Blow were removed from DRK and made role skills, and Dark Dance was removed from DRK to be made into a role action skill that was removed from the game in ShB. Those are off the top of my head. Do not EVER call moving the raidwide buff to Mug gutting the kit, that is nothing more than changing where on your skills the buff is.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The difference is mostly the shift in how the devs see the jobs. NIN was for the longest the "support" melee DPS. It was the only one of its kind, and is one of the hardest melee to play for very little payout. They may have decided that it was either dumb down the gameplay and take things out of NIN (which would have enraged people more), or just bring it in line with other melee DPS without having to gut the kit.

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Honestly I kinda saw this coming since NIN was the one outlier, just didn't expect it until 7.0.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The difference is mostly the shift in how the devs see the jobs. NIN was for the longest the "support" melee DPS. It was the only one of its kind, and is one of the hardest melee to play for very little payout. They may have decided that it was either dumb down the gameplay and take things out of NIN (which would have enraged people more), or just bring it in line with other melee DPS without having to gut the kit.

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You lost me when you said Ninja was the hardest melee to play. Next to Reaper, it has the most flexibility. Its burst window doesn’t change that. Its lack of payout is specifically because its standing is entirely reliant on the party, which is not a good design. Flogs shows this, and the devs know this.

I’m surprised people actually want to tie themselves to how well their party maximizes TA so severely. Dancer and Bard suffer from this as well and it is crushing the role.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Luckily they are not removing anything from Ninja, just moving the raidwide buff from TA to Mug. Meaning the entirety of the kit is still there.

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It isn't though? Moving from a 1min buff to a 2min buff is a huge change, and homogeanizes the job. A part of my kit that I enjoy -- the 1 minute party buff -- is going away. Hence, my dissatisfaction with the changes.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Luckily they are not removing anything from Ninja, just moving the raidwide buff from TA to Mug. Meaning the entirety of the kit is still there.


No, this is not gutting, this will never be gutting. You want to know what real gutting looks like? DRK going from HW to SB lost their second attack combo (the original Delirium). They lost their DoT (Scourge). Reprisal and Low Blow were removed from DRK and made role skills, and Dark Dance was removed from DRK to be made into a role action skill that was removed from the game in ShB. Those are off the top of my head. Do not EVER call moving the raidwide buff to Mug gutting the kit, that is nothing more than changing where on your skills the buff is.

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Nah, I think I'll keep calling it what it is. Just because drk had it worse doesn't mean ninja isn't being screwed over. Too bad for drk players, but I really don't care

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

You lost me when you said Ninja was the hardest melee to play. Next to Reaper, it has the most flexibility. Its burst window doesn’t change that. Its lack of payout is specifically because its standing is entirely reliant on the party, which is not a good design. Flogs shows this, and the devs know this.

I’m surprised people actually want to tie themselves to how well their party maximizes TA so severely. Dancer and Bard suffer from this as well and it is crushing the role.

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Dude is gonna start asking dancer and bard to more in line with mch now lmao

The dude just doesn't like classes whose strengths is in their buffs. Some people just can not comprehend people like buffing their party. Just go play Sam or black mage and leave us buffers alone

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Originally Posted by aloneatsea

It isn't though? Moving from a 1min buff to a 2min buff is a huge change, and homogeanizes the job. A part of my kit that I enjoy -- the 1 minute party buff -- is going away. Hence, my dissatisfaction with the changes.

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What’s being homogenized? The raid buff timing? Big deal. It’s play style is still unique among the DPS. Very unique, actually.

I swear, these buzz words and straw men are so exhausting.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

What’s being homogenized? The raid buff timing? Big deal. It’s play style is still unique among the DPS. Very unique, actually.

I swear, these buzz words and straw men are so exhausting.

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“Hey, we don't like how you're making our unique raidbuff into 2 minutes like everything else”

“Lmao big deal, cope"

Truly a big brained take. If people play Ninja just because they like inputting pin codes to do their mudras, and that's what draw people in, i will be very surprised. Remembering a combination code is hardly engaging dps gameplay. This isn't like street fighter where we have to do a 20 hit combo, we're pressing 3 buttons at most. I'm actually pretty sure this guy is a troll. Either that or a professional square bootlicker

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

Dude is gonna start asking dancer and bard to more in line with mch now lmao

The dude just doesn't like classes whose strengths is in their buffs. Some people just can not comprehend people like buffing their party. Just go play Sam or black mage and leave us buffers alone

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Your mad bro? You seem triggered. You’re also throwing out ad hominem’s. The game’s design has evolved since HW my guy. Forcing a job to rely so much on another’s maximizing (in a game with tons of really bad players) is poor design.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Your mad bro? You seem triggered. You’re also throwing out ad hominem’s. The game’s design has evolved since HW my guy. Forcing a job to rely so much on another’s maximizing (in a game with tons of really bad players) is poor design.

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Buffs bad, we get it

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

“Hey, we don't like how you're making our unique raidbuff into 2 minutes like everything else”

“Lmao big deal, cope"

Truly a big brained take. If people play Ninja just because they like inputting pin codes to do their mudras, and that's what draw people in, i will be very surprised. Remembering a combination code is hardly engaging dps gameplay. This isn't like street fighter where we have to do a 20 hit combo, we're pressing 3 buttons at most. I'm actually pretty sure this guy is a troll. Either that or a professional square bootlicker

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Remembering to use TA ever minute is hardly engaging gameplay either. Is TA going away entirely? No, it is not. So please, tell me how you are losing your ability to buff the party, since your whole argument seems to be centered around your enjoyment from buffing the party.

We get it, buffs bad. Enjoying things is bad. Personal dps is good. Enjoying having a unique minute long buff is wrongthink. Benefitting the party in unique odd minute bursts is bad. Yoshida knows best. Boring balance good.

I think the discussion has moved on a bit here, so I'd like to rein it in a bit back to the topic at hand -- being concerned about the state of Trick. There also seems to be a lot of talk about numbers and relative strength, which I think is completely irrelevant until we have raw potencies. There's no point in speculating on something like that when potencies can be easily changed -- see the vast difference the changes in 6.08 made to Ninja's overall strength, going from one of the weakest melee to one of the strongest.



As I understand it, this is about disappointment in the ideological shift of Ninja -- which has historically been a one-minute based job, with a mtaching party buff -- losing its identity as the one-minute party buff job. I think there is massive value in bringing a Ninja to a party as it stands -- they provide a buff to play into for jobs that have burst outside of two-minute windows. Gunbreaker, Dark Knight, Reaper, Red Mage, the list goes on. If players are able to optimise their rotations to make use of Trick, they should be rewarded for it -- and they are! Removing this kind of synergy seems nonsensical to me, when the listed reason for the change is to increase synergy with other jobs.


That reason also makes no sense, given that 60 seconds is simply half of 120s. 1 minute is half of 2 minutes. There's no missing synergy between a 2 minute-buff and a 1-minute buff, as the 1-minute buff will always be available when the 2-minute buff is.

Precisely. Ninja's ideology has always set it apart, and for better or worse, people just like thinking and playing jobs they find to be different or unique. As far as I am aware, there is no other minute based job in the game, and making mug our raid buff just removes our niche. Whether how much this niche is worth is debatable, but I enjoy playing a class that brings something no other class can do. I haven't spent too long thinking about it, but I can't think of any other real niches that is occupied by just one class. Perhaps macrocosmos? But that's not nearly as integral to astro as it is to ninja I think.

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Originally Posted by aloneatsea

I think the discussion has moved on a bit here, so I'd like to rein it in a bit back to the topic at hand -- being concerned about the state of Trick. There also seems to be a lot of talk about numbers and relative strength, which I think is completely irrelevant until we have raw potencies. There's no point in speculating on something like that when potencies can be easily changed -- see the vast difference the changes in 6.08 made to Ninja's overall strength, going from one of the weakest melee to one of the strongest.



As I understand it, this is about disappointment in the ideological shift of Ninja -- which has historically been a one-minute based job, with a mtaching party buff -- losing its identity as the one-minute party buff job. I think there is massive value in bringing a Ninja to a party as it stands -- they provide a buff to play into for jobs that have burst outside of two-minute windows. Gunbreaker, Dark Knight, Reaper, Red Mage, the list goes on. If players are able to optimise their rotations to make use of Trick, they should be rewarded for it -- and they are! Removing this kind of synergy seems nonsensical to me, when the listed reason for the change is to increase synergy with other jobs.


That reason also makes no sense, given that 60 seconds is simply half of 120s. 1 minute is half of 2 minutes. There's no missing synergy between a 2 minute-buff and a 1-minute buff, as the 1-minute buff will always be available when the 2-minute buff is.

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Well, the ninja is rewarded for their maximization. Not the person who maximized the buff. I don't agree with that, but it is what it is. On the flip side, the ninja is punished if their buffs aren't maximized, which isn't their fault. They did their job. I don't agree with that either.

If it's a game play feel issue, I can get on board with that, as I do enjoy reworking my off minute enshroud when partied with a ninja. However, I would recommend advocating for keeping TA at 60s, weakening it's contribution, and giving the loss damage back to the Ninja's personal DPS. To me, this is what the developers are trying to do with this change.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Well, the ninja is rewarded for their maximization. Not the person who maximized the buff. I don't agree with that, but it is what it is. On the flip side, the ninja is punished if their buffs aren't maximized, which isn't their fault. They did their job. I don't agree with that either.

If it's a game play feel issue, I can get on board with that, as I do enjoy reworking my off minute enshroud when partied with a ninja. However, I would recommend advocating for keeping TA at 60s, weakening it's contribution, and giving the loss damage back to the Ninja's personal DPS. To me, this is what the developers are trying to do with this change.

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I don't understand what you mean by the Ninja being rewarded. The enemy dies more quickly, so the whole party is rewarded? Similarly, the whole party is punished if their buffs aren't maximised, as the boss will die more slowly. This is true of any buff in the game.

At least for me, however, it is definitely a gameplay feel and identity issue at it's core. If what it took to keep Trick Attack as the 1 minute party buff was to concede to a lower overall buff, such a 3% then I would begrudgingly accept it, but I struggle to see the point. It is fine as it is.

Well, making trick personal is certainly one way to weaken its contribution to the party, for it now longer exists. The devs will need to try a lot harder and think of more creative ways to do such a thing to satisfy most ninja players. Before they actually work on such a solution, I rather have what we currently have instead of their proposed change. If trick attack is too strong in the devs eyes, reduce how much it buffs, maybe to 4 or 3%, and buffing other skills such as the potency of raiju or dwad. The devs are professionals, I'm sure they can think of much better ideas instead of just making trick a personal buff. Using mug as the new raid buff just screams lazy. I think most ninjas are now asking for a clear direction for the job, and these numerous changes do not inspire confidence.

Once again, logs are an afterthought to the majority of the playerbase. If current trick makes the boss die faster, that is a win. Speed is the only metric that matters. If fflogs gives the edge of shadows during trick to the ninja instead, who cares. It'll improve your parse by like 0.2%. Team game, if the boss dies quicker the ninja is rewarded by being able to do something else instead of raiding

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

Well, making trick personal is certainly one way to weaken its contribution to the party, for it now longer exists. The devs will need to try a lot harder and think of more creative ways to do such a thing to satisfy most ninja players. Before they actually work on such a solution, I rather have what we currently have instead of their proposed change. If trick attack is too strong in the devs eyes, reduce how much it buffs, maybe to 4 or 3%, and buffing other skills such as the potency of raiju or dwad. The devs are professionals, I'm sure they can think of much better ideas instead of just making trick a personal buff. Using mug as the new raid buff just screams lazy. I think most ninjas are now asking for a clear direction for the job, and these numerous changes do not inspire confidence.

Once again, logs are an afterthought to the majority of the playerbase. If current trick makes the boss die faster, that is a win. Speed is the only metric that matters. If fflogs gives the edge of shadows during trick to the ninja instead, who cares. It'll improve your parse by like 0.2%. Team game, if the boss dies quicker the ninja is rewarded by being able to do something else instead of raiding

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You can reasonably infer that is what they are trying to do. Could it be wrong? Sure, but it's not likely. So, when people screech (I'm not saying you are specifically) that they like it the way it is because they like the feel and what not, they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

Logs are not an after thought. They are merely the representation of everything you are talking about. If it is indeed true that the majority of the player base doesn't care about logs, then they either don't understand what logs represent, or they outright don't care about their own performance or the performance of others in a team event.

Nope, I'm screeching, and proud of it. Only reason I bothered to start a forums account is so I can add my voice to the numerous displeased ninja players. If square only cares about the numbers and logs like you suggest, and not the gameplay feel that ninjas enjoy, so be it. I am a subpar raider, but I can say that I only raid because I enjoy taking ninja's gameplay and feel into various hard content. If they want to alienate casual ninja raiders like me, it's their perogative.

Square from what I have seen doesn't really put gameplay enjoyment first anyway, with the summoner rework isolating many old summoners. I see no reason their philosophy will change just for ninja, but a man can dream.

I'm still pretty sure fflogs an afterthought to most people. I doubt the average sprout still in hw, or the party rpers really care about their parse in extremes. They play to have fun, as do I. If ffxiv is oriented to a more casual audience, I hope they care about what we find fun.

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

Nope, I'm screeching, and proud of it. Only reason I bothered to start a forums account is so I can add my voice to the numerous displeased ninja players. If square only cares about the numbers and logs like you suggest, and not the gameplay feel that ninjas enjoy, so be it. I am a subpar raider, but I can say that I only raid because I enjoy taking ninja's gameplay and feel into various hard content. If they want to alienate casual ninja raiders like me, it's their perogative.
Square from what I have seen doesn't really put gameplay enjoyment first anyway, with the summoner rework isolating many old summoners. I see no reason their philosophy will change just for ninja, but a man can dream.

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Just stop. Of course they care about game play and feel. I never implied that they didn't. Clearly, they also care about other things. Congratulations on screeching like an emotional child. Let me know how that works out for you.

I sure hope it works, and that I am proven wrong about square caring about gameplay and feel. Ninja has its problems, for sure. It can 100% be improved upon. But all the ninjas, like me complaining in this thread, are passionate about the job and what we see as its one minute buff identity. We enjoy what square has done so far, and we do not want to see them throw it all away. It's just as simple as that really. If the changes go through, I know I will still play the job, for I really love ninja. But I definitely won't enjoy it as much as i did before.

As a long-time smn main, I say I agree with Manofpassion statement of the devs don't really care about gameplay and feel. At least not in this expac... If they did they wouldn't have turned smn into an unfinished, boring, shallow light show of a job. It has ALOT of flaws and the devs haven't shown any effort to fix any major flaws of the job so far. Great I can cast SL without carby...what about the fact smn at lvl 90 still feels like a lvl 50 job. Now they are changing a core ability to nin and straight up deleting a core button/gauge spender from sam. If anything they only care about simplifying jobs to the lowest skill bracket

Honestly, I think saying the devs are simplifying the game is giving them too much credit. Pressing kaiten before midare is not hard, as many kaiten detractors point out. Trick detractors also say keeping trick on cooldown isn't difficult, which is also true. You can't simplify these things any further. So what are the reasons for these changes? They're not nerfs, since the devs are gonna compensate us accordingly. It could be a buff, but doing so at the expense of ninja's core skills seems like a strange choice. It seems like they are trying to fix what isn't broken. As far as I am aware, the game is alright balance wise right now. The fact that the devs spent like 15 minutes showing us cool new minions instead of taking 3 minutes to explain their logic is something I find strange. I hope our protests now can at least get us a coherent answer when they read out the patch notes.

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

Honestly, I think saying the devs are simplifying the game is giving them too much credit. Pressing kaiten before midare is not hard, as many kaiten detractors point out. Trick detractors also say keeping trick on cooldown isn't difficult, which is also true. You can't simplify these things any further. So what are the reasons for these changes? They're not nerfs, since the devs are gonna compensate us accordingly. It could be a buff, but doing so at the expense of ninja's core skills seems like a strange choice. It seems like they are trying to fix what isn't broken. As far as I am aware, the game is alright balance wise right now. The fact that the devs spent like 15 minutes showing us cool new minions instead of taking 3 minutes to explain their logic is something I find strange. I hope our protests now can at least get us a coherent answer when they read out the patch notes.

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Maybe simplifying isn't the right word but I can only speak from a caster/smn main and they did simplify smn to the ground with its rework. I'm not saying these abilities were hard to use but they did add something to the jobs and that is being taken away for whatever reason. This whole 120s buff window thing imo is adding more rigidness into the game and I will be honest I don't really like it. As for balance yeah most of the jobs are balanced though I have said it once and I said again the caster role balance is a mess right now just because there isnt an in between job of a pure dps caster and a utility caster. Rdm can do everything an smn can do but better, so there might as well be just two casters right now....

Anyway, my post has gotten off-topic some so I wouldn't say much more than I agree with most that changing TA and deleting Kaiten is a bad decision on the devs part. Hope everyone has a great day!

I dont care about the change. Its more the opener/rotation that worries me. Without a major rework it will be clunky missing ninki, gcds/ogcds and bunshin.

Ninjas were having too much fun, and as such, those abilities must be removed. Honestly a pretty possible reason from my point of view lmao

This at least unites the Sam's, smns, and nins. If we all screech loud enough, maybe they will do something. Their crusade to a more rigid 2 minute style is something I don't understand. I can see why some stuff like 3 minute battle litany has been changed, and I haven't heard too many complaints about it. But this seems like change for the sake of change. Devs need to learn to count and realise one minute buffs line up with 2 minute buffs, 3 minute buffs and even 4 minute buffs. That is the beauty of trick. I wonder if the devs can even do darkened fire in p3s if counting is so complicated.

I wouldn't mind them reworking mug, for me it's kind of a whatever ogcd. I've rarely ever thought to myself, good thing mug just gave me enough ninki for a bunshin or bhava. I know there is some optimisation with placing mug into trick by double weaving and whatnot, but if they removed the move, i wouldn't lose sleep like I would with trick. But I would be lying if I said having the opener be changed again isn't massively annoying. Good luck to the first ultimate nins sorting all this out day 1.

I took a peak at the Jp forums and some people were speculating that the 50 gauge requirement for bushin will be removed to balance the mug changes. Which sounds like a real possibility at this point, I hope it won't be the case. It would be the lowest effort fix to a problem they're creating with the trick mug swap.

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

Ninjas were having too much fun, and as such, those abilities must be removed. Honestly a pretty possible reason from my point of view lmao

This at least unites the Sam's, smns, and nins. If we all screech loud enough, maybe they will do something. Their crusade to a more rigid 2 minute style is something I don't understand. I can see why some stuff like 3 minute battle litany has been changed, and I haven't heard too many complaints about it. But this seems like change for the sake of change. Devs need to learn to count and realise one minute buffs line up with 2 minute buffs, 3 minute buffs and even 4 minute buffs. That is the beauty of trick. I wonder if the devs can even do darkened fire in p3s if counting is so complicated.

I wouldn't mind them reworking mug, for me it's kind of a whatever ogcd. I've rarely ever thought to myself, good thing mug just gave me enough ninki for a bunshin or bhava. I know there is some optimisation with placing mug into trick by double weaving and whatnot, but if they removed the move, i wouldn't lose sleep like I would with trick. But I would be lying if I said having the opener be changed again isn't massively annoying. Good luck to the first ultimate nins sorting all this out day 1.

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Double weaving clips on nin and should be avoided at all costs. The only acceptable time to double weaving is when potting. When clipping mug/bunshin together.bunshin before your 3rd gcd gives you 100 ninki in your opener which is now gone and or either yours or teams buffs dont get the full value from buffs as its not at an optimal time.

I personally will be doing whatever maximizes my damage over the parties. Thats their goal with this change.

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Originally Posted by Hawuhawuu

Double weaving clips on nin and should be avoided at all costs. The only acceptable time to double weaving is when potting. When clipping mug/bunshin together. Mug before your 3rd gcd gives you 100 ninki in your opener which is now gone and or either yours or teams buffs dont get the full value from buffs as its not at an optimal time.

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I'm sorry, but this is just not correct. On high enough ping, double-weaving will clip on any class. However, with reasonable ping, double-weaving after a GCD is perfectly fine. The only instances where you can't double-weave would be with your pot (as the pot animation lock prevents you from doing so) or immediately following a mudra/ninjutsu cast, as the cast time of your mudra occupies too much of your first weave slot.