The MSQ Endwalker Trial Bosses are WAY too hard for newer players to FFXIV

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrayonsAndPaint

Let me start off by saying the trials are easy for me, because I’m used to harder fights like those, but my friends who are new to the game, couldnt for the life of them understand what to do when doing the Zodiark trial. There’s honestly no need to make MSQ trial bosses that hard.

I just think it’s a bit extreme.

---

lmao no

even critical engagements from Zadnor are harder than EW trials

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDaemon

It took them a while to nerf the final trial in Stormblood and the outcry on that one's difficulty was a lot more prevalent than what I'm seeing about EW.

---

Yeah, it might take a while. I guess it will happen though, because it's story-mode, and people who play for the story are not the same target group as people who "play for a challenge".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Yeah, it might take a while. I guess it will happen though, because it's story-mode, and people who play for the story are not the same target group as people who "play for a challenge".

---

It'll happen. I doubt it'll happen before the next major patch though which is still a ways away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Missbone

This! Im not a new player, but someone who dosnt like raids, trials, savage, ultimate and stuff like that. For me it was no fun at all and a big pain in the ass. In no other expansion so far the trials during the MSQ feelt to me like some kind of stupid content blocker. With one of my chars it took 3 groups before the 3rd trial was down and yes the partys where wiping a few times before disbanding. It would be fine if they put it in an optional blue quest like other riad or trials but putting something with savage diffeculty in the MSQ is just mean. I also saw a few players who where honestly thinking of quiting the game because of that and honestly, i cant blame them.

Not everyone likes raids and forcing people doing stuff like that (in the previous expansion the msq trials felt way easier) is just bad and nothing more.

---

I'm sorry but ahahahaha

None of the trials are anywhere close to Savage level. They just aren't entirely faceroll easy and require you to pay somewhat attention to what's going on not unlike Shinryu, Tsukiyomi and Titania before them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

They nerfed "in from the cold", I wouldn't be surprised if they toned down the MSQ trials, too. At least the "normal" modes (which are absolutely not on the same level as past trials).

---

Yes, they are. Tsukiyomi used to wall people constantly and Titania spent the entire length of Shadowbringers being one of the most dreaded trials you could get in Roulette. We simply out scale those older fights now so they aren't nearly as threatening. Furthermore, they have never nerfed a trial fight before while current.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I'm sorry but ahahahaha

None of the trials are anywhere close to Savage level. They just aren't entirely faceroll easy and require you to pay somewhat attention to what's going on not unlike Shinryu, Tsukiyomi and Titania before them.



Yes, they are. Tsukiyomi used to wall people constantly and Titania spent the entire length of Shadowbringers being one of the most dreaded trials you could get in Roulette. We simply out scale those older fights now so they aren't nearly as threatening. Furthermore, they have never nerfed a trial fight before while current.

---

They did during ARR, Step of Faith I think was the name. Not that I think it's needed to be done.

If you don't want to learn mechanics, that's cool.

Don't be surprised at the irritation people express in party at you, though.

Even for someone who will take a dorito marker and bounce around for everyone to follow like I do, I still get irritated when people can't even be asked to do THAT much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Yeah, it might take a while. I guess it will happen though, because it's story-mode, and people who play for the story are not the same target group as people who "play for a challenge".

---

It would ruin the story if the bosses fell over without even trying. We're killing gods, not ladybugs.

And lets stop mixing new players with bad players. I've seen plenty of new players do amazing, some even clear ultimates within their first few months in the game. Someone who can't even clear normal mode trials isn't struggling because they are new, it's because they are bad.

They realized that in certain trials, like Steps of Faith OG, it wasn't obvious that you needed to listen to the NPC shouting instructions. Lucia says, "Hey someone should man the dragon killers!" and that was a cue for a DPS to run upstairs and fire when the dragon was on the orange spot. But the timing of that often got lost in the chaos since people were too busy trying to avoid getting stepped on.

I think that's one reason they introduced the talking head alongside the NPC text this expansion: It's a lot harder to ignore NPC In Charge Issuing Orders when their face is right smack in the middle of the screen, too.

It requires a lot of dancing and movement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinha

We're killing gods, not ladybugs.

---

Are we though?
The "big bad" fell at lvl 83, and the true last boss was a little girl with funky hair style.

All this only matters if people get their clears, and that includes people who go into a trial, prepare to just die and lay there until it's over, because they can't be arsed to do the mechanics. With so many players, there are bound to be groups of players for whom the difficulty level isn't fitting, but you can make things easy enough for "bad" players to get through. There are additional difficulties for the "good" players.

Every game needs a Baseline of skill and what OP suggest is just 1 Button Win and thats no longer participating in the game its more like getting entertained without input and thats just a MOVIE. And like other already said the difficulty is good and based on average and even a little below that.
Sorry but for somebody with average skill no normal difficulty fight will impose any challenge in FF14 for that reason we have Extrems and after that Savage and further down the line Ultimate's.

What is expected from the player is: Read the Tooltips of your Job, watch the boss and watch the arena, avoid Orange.
Is this too much for somebody Lvl 90 ?

You want no difficulty but FF ? Watch a movie - i know thats blunt but this game is not hard on normal and all suggestion i read so far would make all trials or 8 man stuff to a movie and remove the input from the player almost completly.
Thats not "nerfing" thats killing difficulty with a nuke.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Driavna

They did during ARR, Step of Faith I think was the name. Not that I think it's needed to be done.

---

Steps of Faith was a bit of a unique case because you had to wait for the dragon to reach the end even if you were destined to wipe 2 minutes in. If that fight had a way to reset it like every other fight I don't think it would have gotten nerfed.

Friend of mine gets severe motion sickness and can barely do Zodiark. Things like the spinning floor probably shouldn't happen in normal story content. It would be even better if story or normal versions of the primals had forced mechanics warnings like the stars falling showing where they'll hit as well, or at least some very visual hints. Keep the training wheels on there, remove them in extreme.

Just adding to your laundry list of bad takes, I see. Help your friends get better by running the trial with them over and over with them then. Not everything can be skipped with money like you seem to prefer.

The only MSQ trials to get noticeable nerfs were the Steps of Faith and Good King Moogle Mogg, and the latter was years after it was really relevant (and can still wipe a party that tries to ignore mechanics, it's just a bit more lenient). Any other trial just got easier over time due to power creep and gear bloat. Shinryu and Hades are especially noticeable, since they were designed with fresh level cap gear in mind but now sync us to the end of that expansion's gear (Thordan and Rhitahtyn were always jokes), so we've got a good hundred or more item levels on them now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Are we though?
The "big bad" fell at lvl 83, and the true last boss was a little girl with funky hair style.

All this only matters if people get their clears, and that includes people who go into a trial, prepare to just die and lay there until it's over, because they can't be arsed to do the mechanics. With so many players, there are bound to be groups of players for whom the difficulty level isn't fitting, but you can make things easy enough for "bad" players to get through. There are additional difficulties for the "good" players.

---

Where does that bar stop? Should the boss just stand there and go "Please hit me and take your clear."

If they turned everything into a simple tank and spank, everyone would then be crying the game "isn't fun" or that things are "too easy". Granted a vast group of people already think everything is that way, but the point still stands.

Where is the sense of accomplishment and fun in the rush of learning something when overcoming a hard fight? If everything just rolled over, everything would be the difficulty of what ARR is today, a roftstomp. What does the community constantly say about ARR *now*, not when it was current but now. It's a snoozefest. Look at MSQ roulette, prime example.

Just because a trial has mechanics that actually ask people to learn some basic things, doesn't make it "too hard". Some people just can't be arsed to learn the fight. Laziness. No one's asking anyone to become a god tier 'git gud' savage raider, the game is asking the player to simply understand basic mechanics and know how to respond.

Trial 1 has:

1) Raidwide reduce to 1 HP
2) Tank buster, whoopdedoo.
3) Runes that show you the shape of their aoe in the giant faceplate rune. Circle and Square. Not very hard concept.
4) Oh no he rushed over to a corner. Better not stand in his line of sight or I'm gonna get yeeted!
5) Oh look he made animals. Circle and line aoe's. Never saw those before. /sarcasm
6) Oh look tracking AOE's. Never saw those before. /sarcasm
7) Staggered huge line aoe lasers. Oh my I have to stand in one spot and then move into what just fired. Never saw that before. /sarcasm
8) Okay, the stars I'll give you. That one threw me off first time too, with how the display is in the sky, then how it folds like a book onto the arena. I thought that was cool.
9) Oh look, the arena rotates. Brain power, activate.
10) Ahk Morn styled stack marker. Almost forgot about this. We've seen this a million times, it just hits harder.

Even eating one or two mechanics isn't a death sentence other than the stars and the yeeting. Everything here we've pretty much seen before in some form. If you get to level 83 and can't translate older fight mechanics to this, then, what game have you been playing?

I'm a casual player of probably average to decent skill, with abysmal eyesight, awful hand eye coordination, and carpal tunnel. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around the star mechanic - it took basically stopping dps and watching other people solve it for it to fully click, and the snakes still trip me up.

That said. Relatively speaking? Zodiark is not a hard fight. The EXTREME is not even a hard fight. I'm already hearing it laughed off as this expansion's innocence (as in, it'll be a joke very quickly). If one person knows the fight well enough, you can mark and follow them and be fine. Pretty much everything is telegraphed. The fight shows you every mechanic separately before combining them (even to some extent in the extreme version). Some of the mechanics are new, and need you to think a little differently, but holy crap GOOD. If we had nothing but the same mechanics for 8+ years every fight would get unbearably boring. And I mean, there's always the extreme version of course - but extremes generally build on the normal version, and probably won't consist entirely of wholly new mechanics that don't already show up in some form somewhere else. For the most part.

Obviously some fights are gonna be harder for some people than others, and obviously it's not gonna be for everyone. But it's very doable. You can still clear it even with several deaths. Heck, you can still clear the extreme with several deaths as long as they aren't in the middle of the purple orb dps check. Nothing here, as far as I can tell, is a significant leap in difficulty over any other at level trial boss we've encountered before - like others have said, it was Shinryu in Stb and Titania in ShB. A little tricky, possibly leading to some deaths and wipes, but not impassable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Espon

Honestly, I don't even feel the fights are getting all that much harder. It's just presenting new mechanics you gotta learn, like many fights in the past have.

For example:
First time I did Ravana he threw me off the edge at the start of the final phase. I didn't know there was a knockback, and I didn't realize that parts of the wall were now missing.
Sophia immediately sent me off the platform when she first tilted it, and it took me a few attempts to understand why the platform tilts in the direction it does. Yes, it's not MSQ but it's still a normal difficulty fight.
First attempt at Susano and we wiped to his giant blade because no one knew to click the indicator.
Honestly, who hasn't died on their first attempt at Shinryu due to Tidal Wave?
Can't tank the phoenixes in the Suzaku fight, gotta let the DPS take them to the middle and kill them. Standing in the middle and getting ready to start the final phase and a hole appears and kills several of us. Also, she has a knockback.
Warrior of Light needs a carefully timed tank LB3. I've been in groups where the tanks didn't even have Limit Break on their hotbars, but they put it there on the next attempt.
Zodiark shifted to the corner of the platform and shoved off everyone who was in the middle in a diagonal. Didn't expect that.
What do the colored weapons mean in the Hydaelyn fight? Only way to find out is to see them, and likely get hit by them the first few times.

I never got mad or upset after wiping. I learned from it and did better the next attempt.

---

One shotted most of EW bosses. Wiped a few times on EW Trial 1. Entire raid didn't know the patterns. Can't have too many KOs as well because we will have not enough players to soak. Analyzed and let the raid know on what to do. Cleared it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArkenaeuxBelmont

If they turned everything into a simple tank and spank, everyone would then be crying the game "isn't fun" or that things are "too easy". Granted a vast group of people already think everything is that way, but the point still stands.

---

This is where we're of the same opinion. You can't make it so the difficulty feels right for everyone. The question then is, how many people are you willing to live without, because they can't keep up anymore?
If you think this is hyperbole, look at the other replies to that tune in this thread.

This is not about "git gud", it's story-mode. It should be a walk in the park, something my grandma can clear. People who want action and a chance to flex their amazing ninja skills have their special difficulties for that, including their higher quality loot.

Gee, it's almost as if they expect your friends to have 83 levels of experience by then, and have cleared many similar trials, huh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jennah

Gee, it's almost as if they expect your friends to have 83 levels of experience by then, and have cleared many similar trials, huh?

---

83 levels filled with "Speak with Alphinaud"?
That's some amazing experience right there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

This is where we're of the same opinion. You can't make it so the difficulty feels right for everyone. The question then is, how many people are you willing to live without, because they can't keep up anymore?
If you think this is hyperbole, look at the other replies to that tune in this thread.

This is not about "git gud", it's story-mode. It should be a walk in the park, something my grandma can clear. People who want action and a chance to flex their amazing ninja skills have their special difficulties for that, including their higher quality loot.

---

Did you play the ff7r release? That game is single player and the difficulty ramps up in normal mode.

Also, most people never finish games they buy. You'll see trophies/achievements for completing the first chapter at like 60% completion.

It's level 80+, if you haven't figured out how to learn new mechanics by now, what the heck have you been doing?

Most people at that level have more time in game than I did when I was doing extremes in 2.0....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Did you play the ff7r release? That game is single player and the difficulty ramps up in normal mode.

Also, most people never finish games they buy. You'll see trophies/achievements for completing the first chapter at like 60% completion.

It's level 80+, if you haven't figured out how to learn new mechanics by now, what the heck have you been doing?

---

The problem here is that, if you cannot finish this expansion, any future content will be barred, too. That means you effectively kick people out of the game. To what end, to make people happy who find it too easy? Make Extreme trials. Funny, they're already doing that, and another level above that even, for those who still find it too easy. So what's the problem? Make story-mode easy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

The problem here is that, if you cannot finish this expansion, any future content will be barred, too. That means you effectively kick people out of the game. To what end, to make people happy who find it too easy? Make Extreme trials. Funny, they're already doing that, and another level above that even, for those who still find it too easy. So what's the problem? Make story-mode easy.

---

It already is easy. And you can't do content in single player games if you can't beat story bosses.


That's just how it works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It already is easy. And you can't do content in single player games if you can't beat story bosses.


That's just how it works.

---

But then you're not reading this thread. Several people complained that it's too hard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

But then you're not reading this thread. Several people complained that it's too hard.

---

It's not tho. Even the extremes aren't that difficult. I cleared ex1 with healers who hadn't done a single ex fight, 5 new people, all in a single 60 minute instance.

People just want to clear on 1 pull with no issues ever. That's not "hard" that's playing a game.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

This is where we're of the same opinion. You can't make it so the difficulty feels right for everyone. The question then is, how many people are you willing to live without, because they can't keep up anymore?
If you think this is hyperbole, look at the other replies to that tune in this thread.

This is not about "git gud", it's story-mode. It should be a walk in the park, something my grandma can clear. People who want action and a chance to flex their amazing ninja skills have their special difficulties for that, including their higher quality loot.

---

There is where we have to respectfully disagree. 'Story mode' is at least supposed to build the foundations of play to give the player the ability to go further if they want to. They don't have to, but it should at the very least teach the fundamentals of encounter mechanics and at least make one baseline, foundationally competent with their chosen job. At least in my opinion. It should offer the tools that people who want to go further can, but people that don't want to don't have to. Bare in mind, I am speaking of basic, foundational mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It's not tho. Even the extremes aren't that difficult.

People just want to clear on 1 pull with no issues ever. That's not "hard" that's playing a game.....

---

Seriously, I'd be fine with a boss you can just oneshot. Better yet, put a button there to skip the fight, watch a cutscene,. problem solved.

I'm talking about story mode here. Not gameplay. This doesn't take anything away from the playable content, normal trials are only relevant for MSQ progress, and nothing else. All the loot is elsewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Seriously, I'd be fine with a boss you can just oneshot. Better yet, put a button there to skip the fight, watch a cutscene,. problem solved.

I'm talking about story mode here. Not gameplay. This doesn't take anything away from the playable content, normal trials are only relevant for MSQ progress, and nothing else. All the loot is elsewhere.

---

That's what YouTube is for then, if they don't want to play the game, there's avenues to watch it. This is a game. I love the story but come on.

Only in xiv does "it's a story mode" mean "I shouldn't have to do anything to see the story"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

That's what YouTube is for then, if they don't want to play the game, there's avenues to watch it. This is a game. I love the story but come on.

---

Some people play this like an interactive movie or book, and why not?
Seriously, this is treading on "you have to play the game the way I say" territory.

I won't convince you, you won't convince me, and that's cool. I've said my thing, and I'm sure anyone who read this understands my point, no matter if they agree or not... so I reached my goal.

All of us are flying blind on new contents. Its the matter of how fast you catch the patterns. Its up to everyone. Discuss with your teammates or tell them what to do if you already know the pattern. The encounter gets easier on every attempt.

Some players takes longer to learn. Be patient with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrayonsAndPaint

Let me start off by saying the trials are easy for me, because I’m used to harder fights like those, but my friends who are new to the game, couldnt for the life of them understand what to do when doing the Zodiark trial. There’s honestly no need to make MSQ trial bosses that hard.

I just think it’s a bit extreme.

---

If late msq trial bosses provide a challenge for new players then that means the content is doing what it's supposed to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Seriously, I'd be fine with a boss you can just oneshot. Better yet, put a button there to skip the fight, watch a cutscene,. problem solved.

I'm talking about story mode here. Not gameplay. This doesn't take anything away from the playable content, normal trials are only relevant for MSQ progress, and nothing else. All the loot is elsewhere.

---

What's the difference between pressing a button to skip and just watching a movie. You're not even playing the game at that point. YouTube is a thing then, why waste the subscription fee?

This is the same mentality where people today find NES games hard, where others who grew up with them look at these people in bafflement. Yeah, sure some things are hard without practice, but good game design is teaching the player without a billion tutorial windows popping up spoonfeeding them information. Older games that had technical limits couldn't do the spoonfed tutorial pop ups, so they taught the player via conveyance. A good video to watch on that subject is Egoraptor's Sequelitis on Megaman X. It's interesting food for thought.

Point is, XIV does this type of conveyance. It often shows a boss mechanic in a solo, easily controlled instance. One mechanic after another, so people can see and understand them before it starts mixing and matching. The game is attempting to TEACH the player. The fact that people are so against learning is literally just pure laziness. I'm sorry, but I don't think you and I will ever agree on this point.

If someone doesn't want to learn and wants a free ride, watch a story compilation video on youtube. There's no point in paying for the sub if that's what they want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

The problem here is that, if you cannot finish this expansion, any future content will be barred, too. That means you effectively kick people out of the game.

---

Every single player can finish this game. Only one clear of each story duty is required. Even bad players can take their 11 raises and get carried to the end. They just have to queue alone and not with a team of equally unskilled friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

So what's the problem? Make story-mode easy.

---

The problem is that making bosses fall over without requiring a single brain cell makes the game boring to 99% of players, who can manage to kill these primals even after being surprised by a few mechanics. This includes both new and old players who like some interaction with the game and not just walking around and watching a movie.

Years of people complaining that they just want to skip the story and get to the fights. Now we get one complaining that they want to skip the fights and just see the story. At least it's a different twist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

This is where we're of the same opinion. You can't make it so the difficulty feels right for everyone. The question then is, how many people are you willing to live without, because they can't keep up anymore?
If you think this is hyperbole, look at the other replies to that tune in this thread.

This is not about "git gud", it's story-mode. It should be a walk in the park, something my grandma can clear. People who want action and a chance to flex their amazing ninja skills have their special difficulties for that, including their higher quality loot.

---

Why does everything have to be either 'push this button to win' or 'super hardcore elite'? What about the majority of players who fall somewhere in the middle and would still like to get some challenge from the content they experience? Should us, average folks, be denied the right to experience fun fights because of the small minority that can't handle anything beyond side-stepping slow AoE circles while mashing random buttons? I'm not interested in Savage, Extreme and Ultimate content, I'm not a hardcore player nor do I have that kind of skill level, so why should I be doomed to play nothing but braindead content to accommodate a small subset of players?

A good game has a little something for everyone. The regular MSQ quests fall in the 'Super easy' category, anyone can go through those. Dungeons and Trials step it up a bit, and then you have high end content for the better players craving more. Stop advocating for the complete removal of 'middle ground' content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lexis

Why does everything have to be either 'push this button to win' or 'super hardcore elite'?

---

You're misunderstanding me. It's not A or B, it's A and B. Easy for story-mode, harder for the other modes.

then maybe they should go and play older content to get more adjusted to it

the bosses are just fine

hmm, if not for the fight, i believe they are playing for economics reason..?
crafting, gathering, selling, and such, basically hoarding gil..?

then, just go in a premade party, and let 7 other clear it..?
I believe missing just one party member is still doable.. (as in barely alive for the entire fight)
just give some compensation or something for them for the hassle.. (one or two million gil shouldn't be hard for this type of player right ?)
that way they will still see it as an "interactive movie" and still continue the content,
and the friends have a compensation to get, win-win

and i believe this is not against ToS, as it is an offer of compensation for a clear, not a selling a clear...

or if don't have any gil to spare, just... I dunno, call for 7 other fc members or friends to help..?
no fc or friends as well..? damn, i have no idea the situation is so dire..
perhaps... uhm... shouting and begging for clear in limsa or uldah could help..? (oh this could be an rp opportunity!)

The premise of the thread is wrong. No one at 83 is new.

Skippers includes. They need to do their homework on their own if they’re going to skip.