You forgot Pneuma, Sage has more and tbh if the SCH Job gauges weren't so clunckily designed we wouldn't even need ED as a button.Quote:
Originally Posted by KDSilver
6.0 Healer Feedback Thread
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12-08-2021, 11:00 AMRinaShinomiya
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12-08-2021, 03:18 PMLaphicetIf you've been around these forums for any length of time you'd know them as someone who's been bitching about healers for a long time, especially WHM. The fact that the lack of care given to the most recent expansion on the healer front was enough to make them give up on healers entirely should speak volumes considering how militant they were about how WHM should be improved and related healer issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isharis
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12-08-2021, 05:14 PMSaefinnThere are a few differences here that I think help. The main one is that it doesn't feel like a single button spam, I mean there is some but not to the same extent. It's much better for AoE but less so for single target.Quote:
Originally Posted by KDSilver
Eucrasian Dosis is Biolysis. But it has an extra step. It's 2 button presses. 4.0 SCH used to do 2 button presses for their main DoTs, Bio + Miasma. It's a seemingly small difference but it affects how its flow feels.
Toxicon is like Ruin II in that it has a benefit to mobility. Toxicon comes with an AoE benefit too. But it is tied to a separate mechanic unlike Ruin II and affects your healing style to in order to build up your Addersting. So I think this mechanic tricks the brain into it feeling like a 3 step process, because you have to Eukrasia -> Eukrasian Diagnosis -> [Shields breaks] -> Toxicon. Or you do it several times and then dump your stacked Toxicon. However, when it comes to single target, this is where Toxicon starts to be a potential DPS loss. And this is feedback we've given, because we like using Toxicon. If in the single target fight if the incoming damage is consistent enough then Toxicon gets more use.
Dyskrasia is Art of War for sure, but it's less offensive in that it is supplemented by extra AoE's. SCH just gets 1 AoE, SGE gets multiple.
Dosis is Broil for sure.
Phlegma - I can see why you put it as an equivalent to Energy Drain, but again this has a benefit to an AoE rotation and this isn't dependent on Aetherflow, which may end up reserved for oGCD heals depending on the situation or fight. And it's on the GCD.
Then of course, Pneuma, which has no SCH equivalent.
I think SGE DPS shines the most during AoE situations. For single target, it needs some adjustment.
So far my experience has been that I am not spamming Dosis or Dyskrasia as much as I do with Broil or Art of War. I am pressing more buttons and thus it feels busier.
I think it is a better experience. I think one still in need of improving, but it so far has been enough to keep it from being monotonous and feels like a step in the right direction. -
12-08-2021, 07:59 PMAlrinWhen we vere chatting about healers in my FC I wrote something similar. I cant tell that I like it and I cant tell that I dont like it. Something about this job feels off. Cant tell why. I Just have this inner feeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
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12-08-2021, 08:03 PMrewdThe issue with Sage is that the job always "feels like" and not "it is like". It feels busy, but it isn't busy. It feels like it has a damage rotation, but it actually has not. Toxicon/Addersting is such a painful noob trap à la Freecure with so many players spamming shields (because I'm a ~shield healer~) to fish for close to irrelevant Toxicons. Hell, Astrologian of all people feels like it has a more impactful AoE with Star being more powerful than Phlegma and Lord of Crowns, if you are lucky enough to get it. Not to mention WHM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saefinn
When a healer that adheres to the usual dull playstyle also has to trick you into thinking it plays differently/is busy, there is a problem. -
12-08-2021, 10:02 PMSaefinnFor sure I would like more complexity.Quote:
Originally Posted by rewd
But how a job feels can make a big difference. DNC is dead simple but it feels good. RDM is dead simple but it feels good. DNC has a low personal DPS but when you do a Technical Step breaking 200,000 damage? It feels strong and I actually think it's a good way of keeping things balanced without feeling like a wet noodle. I guess this was their intention with Earthly Star too.
For SGE, however, my general issues with SCH have been over the monotony of a Broil/Art of War spam and how its healing abilities flow and how they don't always work together. But I actually like the healing tools and functionality SCH has to offer. Another gripe has been that I favour shield healing and for SCH it has ended up being a secondary focus in 5.0. One of my other gripes with SCH's kit (and any healer kit) is how little I would get to use the tools at my disposal, which is an issue with how content is balanced against the available skills. That latter issue may still end up presenting itself, I think it's too early for more to fully judge that one and if it does present itself...at least I am going to have a better time with it than SCH or WHM.
However, how the job flows and feels despite being practically functionally identical to SCH actually makes it enjoyable when SCH isn't. One thing I have referred to SGE is as a SCH with QoL changes or "what 5.0 SCH should have been".
But the main benefits I am finding is that:
- I am shield healing more
- I am finding the healing kit flows with itself better
- I am finding QoL in things like Pepsis over Emergency Tactics
- I am finding there is some breakage of the monotony of a single button spam
And when you think about it, those are all things I've asked for. DPS complexity is also something I've asked for, but they've pretty much said they're not going to do that and I was willing to compromise at "make it enjoyable". If my current experience of SGE remains consistent then they will have achieved that.
And to note: on having a DPS rotation as healer, I've generally been against the idea of a rotation, but a supporter or more options. A rotation can still cause people to tunnel vision and it doesn't feel good having to break a rotation to take care of healing. But a monotonous single button spam also can cause people to tunnel vision. -
12-09-2021, 04:30 AMMaxilorMy ONLY complaint about Sage and what feels funny to me is mana management.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrin
On paper it seems fine, use OGCD Heals and abilities to gain 7% mana back.
But in execution a lot of the times when healing is not needed I end up almost going OOM because using a heal when no healing is needed would be a waste, but that's the only way for me to get mana back.
Essentially, Sage needs a dump like Energy Drain. The only thing we have close to that is Kerachole which can be used fairly often without being a waste but that's on a 30 sec cooldown. -
12-09-2021, 04:59 AM-BlueGreen-Perhaps it's one of these points that have crossed my mind:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrin
- Spell speed increases don't help Eukrasia and the augmented spells. Those are locked to 1/1.5 GCD so that combined it's a 2.5 second GCD. This creates a problem where if your spell speed is high enough, your casting rhythm will be uneven. IMO, Eukrasia needed to be an ability and the augmented spells have standard GCDs so spell speed just works.
- If, for some reason, you're stuck needing to focus exclusively on healing (bad team, heal check, etc.), Kardia basically becomes pointless. SCH's fairy at least tries to do something during such times, but if you're not DPSing, Kardia does nothing. This also interestingly means that in tearms of healing, Diagnosis is only a +280 potency heal over just tosing out another Dosis where as a SCH could cast Physic and maybe the fairy would add to it. Basically, even though you're a healer, it feels "bad" to actually heal directly.
- Toxicon, at its current potency, is largely smoke-and-mirrors to make the job feel more interesting. Outside of the instant cast, I've found it is near pointless in boss battles, especially just building it up. You have to pay 900 MP to put up a shield that you need to break to get a "free" damage skill that does the same as Dosis. Better to just Dosis x2, let the tank eat the tank buster then come back with Druochole. It'll cost 100 less MP, deal 2x the DPS, and heal for only a little less (Eukrasion Diagnosis is 300 potency heal + 540 potency shield while a Dosis for a Kardia heal and weaving Druchole is a total of 770 potency healing for that first GCD, in the second GCD, Toxicon and a second Dosis both trigger a Kardia heal for another 170 potency heal in both contexts).
Now, trash pulls in a dungeon where you have tanks pulling wall-to-wall? Toxicon is a little less pointless as it's an AoE where it's generally better in total vs. Dyskrasia and breaks even before becoming worse for DPS only after a fairly large number of targets. Given that tanks generally do take significant damage at such times, it's usually necessary to put the full healing kit to work which means both Eukrasian Diagnosis as well as the Addersgall heals. This setup makes the alternation between DPS and healing such situations feel more natural if you can keep up with it. Reading other threads here, though, it's clear some players are struggling to switch targets rapidly enough for this to actually work.
IMO, since Phlegma is essentially melee-range to begin with, I feel like it'd help both Toxicon and Phlegma to have the same range/target as Dyskrasia so that you can use them while still targeting the tank (without the need for macros) and benefit from far less frequent target switching in big pulls. Sage would essentially just become a melee healer, which would help set it apart from the rest in terms of playstyle. -
12-09-2021, 05:29 AMMaxilorThat would depend on how many targets there was. I'm at work so I can't do the quick math, but how many targets would it take for Dyskrasia to do more DPS than Toxicon?Quote:
Originally Posted by -BlueGreen-
Reminder that Toxicon II is 330 Potency to first target and 50% less to all others...so 330 + 165 for each extra target.
Dyskrasia II is 170 to everyone no matter what. -
12-09-2021, 05:32 AMLiam_HarperIt's not a waste if you get mana back. Weave it in and get some mana. It's not the best design, sure, but there's still no reason to go OOM on it. Overheal is only a big issue if you're losing dps over it, but oGCD's are free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxilor
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12-09-2021, 05:40 AMMaxilorYes I suppose, but every fiber of my being rebels against wasted resources like healing someone at full health.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
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12-09-2021, 05:47 AM-BlueGreen-I figured I probably should have just done the math to post the numbers, but because Dyskrasia has more potency than the 50% all others of Toxicon, there's a break even point:Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxilor
15 target Toxicon = 300 potency for first target + 150 potency for 14 targets for 2400 total
15 target Dyskrasia = 160 * 15 = 2400 total
In other words, less than 15 targets Toxicon is always better if you have a charge of it. After that, Dyskrasia edges ahead 10 potency per additional target. Granted, how often do you have 15+ mob pulls? Just don't think about it and use Toxicon if you have it in AoE. Besides, even though in theory you could do more absolute DPS by ignoring Toxicon completely at 16+ mobs, you'd probably benefit from the MP savings if you're already using Eukrasian Diagnosis to survive such a pull.
Note: the math does change at level 82
Toxicon II = 330 primary, 165 additional
Dyskrasia II = 170 all
Toxicon II: 330 + 32 * 165 = 5610
Dyskrasia II: 33 * 170 = 5610
For that case, you'd need 33 targets to break even. (lol, does that ever happen?)
My point still stands, Toxicon edges out Dyskrasia in virtually all AoE situations assuming you aren't casting Eukrasian Diagnosis for the sole purpose of triggering Toxicon.
If you're wondering, in 2 GCDs against just 2 targets (to try to benefit Toxicon II), DPS-wise (ignoring the effect on healing):
Eukrasion Diagnosis + Toxicon II = 495 total potency for damage
Dyskrasia II x2 = 680 total potency
Now, obviously, if you don't have any OGCDs to heal with and must use a GCD on healing, Eukrasian Diagnosis -> Toxicon in an AoE setup at least gives you a partial "refund" in terms of DPS lost to healing vs. just tossing out more Dyskrasias with this effect being more noticeable with fewer targets. Additionally, using Toxicon in such situations where you had to use Eukrasian Diagnosis to cover a lack of available OGCD heals also saves you the 400 MP that Dyskrasia would have cost if you had ignored Toxicon completely. -
12-09-2021, 06:04 AMSani2341
But that only applies to the up to three Toxikons you can get from downtime shielding.
The moment you put a E. Diagnosis on the Tank during the pull jsut for toxikon, it starts to loose out quickly to dyskrasia, as you loose a full GCD of damage to get that addersting stack. -
12-09-2021, 06:17 AMMaxilorThis is true as well, but thank you -BlueGreen- for doing the math.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sani2341
So we essentially take all Dyskrasia's in those calculations and double them to account for the extra GCD of damage. If my 1st grade math skills are not mistaken.
So essentially outside of any saved up Toxicon stacks you already have, Dyskrasia would have more Damage Per Second assuming the Tank does not need any healing outside of OGCD heals. -
12-09-2021, 07:46 AMIcefyer
So overall I quite like Astro, but it does have some rather glaring issues in the new version. Macrocosmos is awesome, Fall Malefic and Gravity 2 are quite cool-looking and fairly solid even if Gravity 2 wasn't much of a potency increase. Divination not needing seals anymore is amazing, and I noticed I don't lose seals upon dying which is great, though Astrodyne itself doesn't feel good. The last bonus feels like a waste since you either lose out on damage cards because you have to hold them to save the astrodyne or you have to pop it as soon as you get all 3 which feels like a waste as well. The speed buff doesn't feel like it has much of an impact since astro heals / malefic-gravity-spam are such fast casting anyway that I didn't notice it doing anything at all, and light-speed can completely remove cast times if necessary, so the only thing I've really been able to use it for is mana regen in rough times when Lucid Dreaming isn't enough like if you have to raise a bunch or something like that, so overall it doesn't feel that great.
I do have some minor gripe over the new Lord / Lady. Lord is ok as a quick burst of damage, but Lady, while not being completely useless, just being a Helios clone with RNG stapled to it feels bad when we have so many good AoE oGCD heals. Not being able to prepare it ahead of combat like you can with their regular-card cousins is annoying and shouldn't be a thing, but I think Lady doesn't have enough oomph to make up for the RNG, when Celestial Opposition, the Aspected Helios clone, doesn't have to deal with the RNG alongside the 1-minute cooldown.
I think that if they plan on keeping the RNG, they should crank up the potency (or lower the cooldown, unsure which would be better, probably potency since lowering the cooldown would affect Lord too) so that Lady isn't just a Helios clone, but worse because of the 50/50 shot you'll get it compared to its Celestial Opposition / Aspected Helios version, actually make it worth using with our wide variety of other oGCD heals. Or it could be nice if, since it needs two buttons like draw / play, if they instead worked more like Horoscope, Earthly Star, and Macrocosmos, where you press one to 'pick' which of the two cards you draw, with both sharing a cooldown and hitting it again plays the card like how those three abilities have a "press once to prime, press twice to detonate" mechanic, preferably with it able to keep track of the cooldown in the background like those other skills where the cooldown ticks down even as you wait to detonate them.
TL;DR: The Arcana Lady card doesn't feel good to use. It's just a Helios clone that requires RNG while its Aspected Helios cousin doesn't. Either get rid of the RNG somehow, merge them sort of like Assize, or make it more potent to be worth using alongside our other, much stronger, non-RNG-dependant options, so that it might be worth holding onto if needed. Lord is ok, since we don't have much damage competition in our kit.
Astrodyne doesn't feel impactful in the slightest, or at least its impact is very difficult to actually use, and is too reliant on RNG now that RNG-reducing abilities like Sleeve Draw and multi-charge redraw are gone, plus once you get 3 seals you are forced to hold your cards as there's no way to "burn" them in a way that doesn't give seals so that you don't mess up your seal combo. That RNG can mean the "cooldown" of a 3-seal can be anywhere from 120 seconds to several minutes if luck isn't on your side. The buffs also don't feel very powerful, I didn't notice the speed buff doing anything because our cast times are already short when not using Lightspeed, and mostly used it so far for mana in a pinch but otherwise just sat there not being used very often because it was hard to get a 3-seal right as a Divination lined up. So overall it feels just...meh. It doesn't feel very strong and the RNG makes it difficult to use at full power even then. It just feels like it's "just there" rather than a tool you can really rely on, same with the Crown cards. They're useful when they come up but in no way can you reliably use them. -
12-09-2021, 07:51 AM-BlueGreen-My math accounted for that. See the last bit of calculation where I was essentially putting numbers to what I hoped was otherwise quite obvious. One GCD for a heal to later be followed by a slightly stronger AoE was going to lose out to just casting the slightly weaker AoE twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sani2341
No need to do that. The first set of calculations were to help justify that in a given moment, if you had to choose between Dyskrasia vs. Toxicon for a single cast and you could cast both, Toxicon wins unless you have an absurd amount of targets and don't care about MP cost. In other words, if you didn't have a charge for Toxicon, then just use Dyskrasia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxilor
The last bit of computations I did was essentially stating Sani2341's point: Don't be fooled into thinking you should be setting up to cast Toxicon just for the sake of casting Toxicon. Those GCDs you use to cast the heals are GCDs you aren't doing damage which is why in that example I'm comparing a single Toxicon II's damage to 2 casts of Dyskrasia II.
The bottom line is that Toxicon barely has reason to exist. It's pretty situational and I find that I only really use it in big pulls where the tank is taking enough damage to justify Eukrasian Diagnosis for healing purposes, and only at times when the tank actually needed it. If you just start spamming Eukrasian Diagnosis even in a big pull, you're likely to overheal and then even refresh the shield before it has a chance to break which will cause you to be even more wasteful. -
12-09-2021, 12:41 PMGrimoire-M
The real reason for Toxikon is movement and weaving, not damage. You can assume that the only time you're using E.Diagnosis is when that throughput or shield is absolutely necessary, which means we can ignore the damage loss and assume we're not getting many stacks of it to begin with. Compared to using Ruin II in the same situations it's more overall DPS when that utility is useful, but obviously the problem is the number of stacks you get over an encounter is extremely limited. You're not going to be able to rely on that tool consistently, which is offset by it effectively being loseless for the only stacks you would require out of it in the first place. From that view, it's niche, but good within that niche. Personally I think we'd rate the value of Ruin II higher because it's a much better progression tool but numerically Toxikon can compete against it just fine, and Sage has other tools that fit the same purpose. Really what would be appreciated is having a cooldown or two give out a stack for free, like Rhizomata and Zoe, or perhaps Icarus.
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12-09-2021, 09:42 PMGrimGaleToxikon II is also a marginal gain in AoE situations over Dyskrasia II. It works fantastically well with big pulls as your shield applications can be used on the move while Tanks wrang mobs up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimoire-M
Sage's AoE rotation is more interesting than its single target. I often find myself overcapping on Addersting during bosses as I can't seem to never find a need for movement to use the charges I've build up on tank busters. It does depend on the encounter of course.
On the level 83 trial for example I often find myself starved of movement tools. -
12-21-2021, 09:10 PMSemirhage
I'm leveling WHM for the role quest and a retainer's cap, doing a bunch of FATEs and roulettes.
Now that they've "upgraded" Holy, in addition to spamming one button over and over and over and over and over and over again, all of the damage spells sound like you're gently shaking a chandelier at your enemy. I suppose that's fair, because now Holy feels like it barely does any damage with beginning-of-expansion gear disparity.
There's now not one single WHM damage spell that doesn't sound like "tinkle tinkle". Dia! "tinkle tinkle". Glare! "tinkle tinkle". Holy "tinkle tinkle". Misery "tinkle tinkle". I suppose Assize kind of wooshes, wonder if it'll get a limp tinkle tinkle "upgrade" with five more damage potency next expansion. Only time will tell. -
12-21-2021, 11:05 PMcurrentlemon
I still don't get why SE could've just reworked WHM's Fluid Aura instead of deleting it. Perhaps they could've made it a baby's Assize. Would've greatly helped with lower levels. Personally, I believed Fluid Aura should've been a DPS oGCD that would upgrade to water spells that currently exist in the game, such as Water III and Water IV. And it would recover MP and have multiple charges if the devs decide not to revert the changes to Thin Air.