Extreme over correction in ToS? New ToS is going to kill pugging

Who is chatting in PuGs?

there not there doomsaying because square is taking a stance on stuff you can totally talk to people and advise why or how they can improve just can't be a jerk about it. Oh how dare they make you speak without turning into a child screaming over xbox.

If it upsets the OP they're doing something right. Nice job SE.

Seriously about time they're addressing the PF Seller abuse and hopefully we've seen the last of it.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I almost never address anyone directly when it comes to mistakes, and put a big emphasis on positive reinforcement where it\\\\\\'s due.
I have two strategies for pointing out mistakes. I try as hard as possible to never address anyone directly, because I don\\\\\\'t think putting someone on the spot and turning the party against them is constructive in most cases. I either:

A.) Say something like "It looks like someone popped an orb there, moving like this can help avoid it"
or
B.) Ask "Did anyone see what went wrong there?" even if I know exactly what went wrong. Getting people to explain and work through what went wrong is usually constructive, and it gives the person an opportunity to admit fault, which is a very important quality for someone looking to become a competent raider.

Sometimes I even just disband parties outright because I feel bad about singling out someone and kicking them.

Although most of my experiences are overwhelmingly positive, I run into the occasional unstable person that doesn\\\\\\'t take things well under any circumstances. I\\\\\\'ve had a guy sit outside my FC house for two days straight after I asked him to leave a clear party for a fight he openly admitted he didn\\\\\\'t actually know. I\\\\\\'ve been stalked around by an ex-static mate and put on blast in various raiding discords because I kicked him from the static after he literally went berserk and started screaming in a voice call over a minor mistake someone else made, all caught on VOD.

It\\\\\\'s extremely disheartening when people imply these types of things are entirely my fault, and that I should have somehow treated genuinely malicious people like this \\\\\\'better\\\\\\' than I already did. Do you genuinely think people like this are above lodging petty reports against people they don\\\\\\'t like? Some of these new policies can potentially lend legitimacy to some of the claims these people might make out of spite, which is why it\\\\\\'s concerning.

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It’s not like SE can pull chat logs and see if the complaint lines up. Be respectful like you we’re in your “casandra” example and there is nothing be worried about. With your other example going over the target makers is condescending and passive aggressive, plus it doesn’t give any indication what happened. Again. You know what happened. Don’t be a jerk. I don’t see that it’s this hard to be respectful and helpful at the same time. Not everything has to be cheeky feedback and thinking it’s being helpful.

Geez. I suppose they should have changed the TOS to say. “Don’t be a dick”.


Nuff said

There are some cases I find absolutely ridiculous that they are there...

・Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.

"If you can't do the mechanic well, maybe you shouldn't bother joining the party."
"If you don't understand that, you'd be wise to leave the party."
"Don't join if your equipment is that bad/such a low item level."

While the third one is a bit more rare, since you can set a required ilvl for a group...
The other two are still definitely a valid concern, as you can't tell someone to not join a clear group for practicing a fight from the start.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Geez. I suppose they should have changed the TOS to say. “Don’t be a dick”.


Nuff said

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Reported for swearing and general condescension throughout the thread. Have a good day.

I mean, OP is not wrong. Now if your internet connection happens to go down at the wrong time (before a wipe or when a duty starts) you can now be reported and banned? A bit extreme just to combat Mentor abuse. Would have been a lot simpler to just remove the Mentor System.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

There are some cases I find absolutely ridiculous that they are there...

・Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.

"If you can't do the mechanic well, maybe you shouldn't bother joining the party."
"If you don't understand that, you'd be wise to leave the party."
"Don't join if your equipment is that bad/such a low item level."

While the third one is a bit more rare, since you can set a required ilvl for a group...
The other two are still definitely a valid concern, as you can't tell someone to not join a clear group for practicing a fight from the start.

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My sense is that the clause at the top of that section which references an "Administrator" and offers a free company leader as an example implies that a party finder host might also be an "administrator" and thus have the rights to set such requirements. It definitely needs more clarity. Even still, if this is only targeted at DF it's still kind of concerning. I've seen parties that are literally, mathematically unable to clear normal mode duties because multiple people joined in gear that was literally unviable in that content. Titania NM is a pretty common example.

They can't ban you if you don't say anything. More reason for me to not even speak during dungeons or roulettes.

The only extreme thing about the updated ToS is the extreme over-reaction.

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It is prohibited to make statements such as:

"Big pulls are normal here, so do it!"

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Based. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

Where are you even reading all that, I'm not seeing anything close to what you're describing?

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"You have to <action> or we can't win" is one of the bannable things.

This includes, "use tank stance"
"drag the flare away from the group"
and
"stack for the stack marker"
or even "heal the tank".

All things that are perfectly reasonable requirements that a dungeon or a trial might have, but we're not allowed to say anymore.


You can now troll all day long, and say you don't want advice, and any attempt to stop you is a violation. And if they kick you without a reason, you can report the kick without reason, because that's also a violation.

Can we get a GM on this thread for some clarification?

Are we allowed to call Lalafells "Potatoes" or is that ban?
And Miqo'te "Cat boy/girl" or ban?
And finally Male Viera "Bunny Boy" = ban yes/no?

I feel like all of these problems would be solved if people just didn’t let online words get to them so much…

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Can we get a GM on this thread for some clarification?

Are we allowed to call Lalafells "Potatoes" or is that ban?

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Yes, you will be banned.

We are 'popotoes'.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I feel like all of these problems would be solved if people just didn’t let online words get to them so much…

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You can't tell people what to do Mr. I'm calling the cops

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

"You have to <action> or we can't win" is one of the bannable things.

This includes, "use tank stance"
"drag the flare away from the group"
and
"stack for the stack marker"
or even "heal the tank".

All things that are perfectly reasonable requirements that a dungeon or a trial might have, but we're not allowed to say anymore.


You can now troll all day long, and say you don't want advice, and any attempt to stop you is a violation. And if they kick you without a reason, you can report the kick without reason, because that's also a violation.

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I refuse to believe it'll actually be taken that seriously and if I do get in trouble, is the day I quit.

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Originally Posted by MPK

You're from Crystal DC. What do you know about raiding?

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This is the most ironic thing I have ever read

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

"You have to <action> or we can't win" is one of the bannable things.

This includes, "use tank stance"
"drag the flare away from the group"
and
"stack for the stack marker"
or even "heal the tank".

All things that are perfectly reasonable requirements that a dungeon or a trial might have, but we're not allowed to say anymore.

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I think the important part of the clause you elected to pick as an example is "You can't do it any other way, so STOP it" - Which is pretty much the clause that makes it a compel.

Conversely,

Example of a violation:
"We can only beat [Lakshmi] by using [Vril]. You can't do it any other way, so stop doing that!" - by unilaterally excluding their opinions without respecting theirs, which is considered a violation.
Example of a non-violation:
"I think [Lakshmi] will go more smoothly if we do [Vril], so I want to try doing it this way, is that okay with everyone?" - it is not a violation to suggest one's own opinion/policy or to present a counterproposal to an opinion,

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Expressing your wishes in the form of a request, as in the following example, does not constitute a violation.

"I'm getting attacked by the enemies, can you put on your stance?"
"It would be great if you could focus on healing because I'm in trouble!"

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This pretty much negates anything above.
"We're about to be hit with a split damage AoE, can we all stack up?"
"The Tank is low on HP, are you able to focus on healing them?"
"I think we're handling this pull perfectly well, it would be great if you could try pulling more"

TL;DR: Just word it in the right way and you still get your point across.. You don't need to get your point across by being condescending, or by subsequently negating their style of play by trying to impose your own onto them.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

"I think [Lakshmi] will go more smoothly if we do [Vril], so I want to try doing it this way, is that okay with everyone?" - it is not a violation to suggest one's own opinion/policy or to present a counterproposal to an opinion,

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Then one person replies "No, I'm not ok with that" and you can't force him to do it your way nor can you kick him cause ban

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

I refuse to believe it'll actually be taken that seriously and if I do get in trouble, is the day I quit.

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Tis quite literally the rules as written, so it's not only meant to be taken seriously, your meant to report anybody who does it.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Then one person replies "No, I'm not ok with that" and you can't force him to do it your way nor can you kick him cause ban

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Difference of play-style is a valid reason for a kick.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Then one person replies "No, I'm not ok with that" and you can't force him to do it your way nor can you kick him cause ban

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But if they are holding back the group's progress to the point that they literally cannot progress any further then they can be kicked. Compelling a playstyle works both ways. Sure, you can't force someone to do something they don't want to, but they can't force others to tolerate it either. That's where the difference in playstyles comes into play where there is irreconcilable differences. Just because some people don't believe in it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It has for years. lol

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

TL;DR: Just word it in the right way and you still get your point across.. You don't need to get your point across by being condescending, or by subsequently negating their style of play by trying to impose your own onto them.

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The problem is, if something like that is going wrong, you don't really have the time to type it out as you're reacting to the chaos.

"tank can you please turn on tank stance so I don't get autoed" gets you autoed to death before they finish reading it.
"please stack with me we need to share the damage to survive" and the castbar finishes as you hit enter.

usually there's time for "TANK STANCE!" or "STACK!" and no one should be offended by basic mechanic callouts

Saying "I don't need need to save tank lb3 for Alexander/omega/ultima/SoS" isn't an opinion, it's just flat-out wrong. This game has binary conditions for a LOT of its mechanics and clear conditions, and we don't need to give the false illusion that there's other options for these things.

Well if you are concered, quietly disband after some attempts to hint solutions. Block the problem player and restart your pf, they cannot see or join it. Problem solved. Petition SE to expand the nr of players you can block!
I personally would try something along the lines of, "I suggest we do x and y to not wipe to this mechanic again" not even mention whom in particular fucked it up just reiterate what you SUGGEST is done, even though all the rest of us know that is how it SHOULD be done :)

We shall see how it goes in future, I dont mind some deadweights in extreme's but even then they can be hard to carry. Recently carried a random through e11s, they were my cohealer who somehow both refused to heal and also didnt dps, was fun for me to try solohealing the majority of that fight. I was baffled they would fail at both, it took a few 2% and a 0.2% wipe for me to pay more attention to see the problem. Ended up taking some of the dps potting and having food to make up for them.

I honestly question such people who think it is ok to go into a party with 7 other people and perform like that, esp one's who absolutely will not take advice at all. You willfully waste their time with the refusal to press a couple buttons. And if you are not capable of performing, that's fine! Savage is probably not for you, at least not pf pugs anyway. Why is it ok to waste people's time like that and then try and get them banned when they leave or try and correct your poor play?! I will only ever do savage with my static if these new ToS prove to be enforced willy nilly without care that people are often trying to HELP the underperforming person and the rest of the party having their time wasted. Nothing wrong to be a slow learner, but the rest of the raiding community is not obligated to carry them and should not be punished for leaving or trying to offer advice on how to clear content.

I sat on the dummy for hours to memorise my opener on MNK in early ShB. I was on the dummy for more hours memorising the positionals when I was new to the job. I wanted to at least be sure that my gameplay of my job would not be the cause of failing to clear. It's downright rude to join a pf saying practice "x mechanic" and you are just going in blind expecting people to carry you and teach you mechanics they are NOT looking to be stuck progging on.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Difference of play-style is a valid reason for a kick.

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If player B is not asking for any advice, player A cannot force player B to play a specific way.

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You guys really need to read the ToS.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

While MPK may be a known troll, their point in this instance isn't inaccurate. How is answering "They DRG keeps messing up Lions" impolite or banworthy when it's literally addressing the problem? All this encourages is even more quiet disbands because no one will want to actually say why we're wiping.

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What's constructive about just finger pointing? Does this statement try to do anything to determine exactly why the DRG is having trouble? Does it offer any suggestions on what can be adjusted?

As others in the thread have said, you can still give feedback to people. But phrasing and presentation matter. As someone mentioned, any HR training or training for a leadership positions requires this care and professionalism. If you want to be a leader and guide your party to success, then it's an essential skill to pick up.

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Originally Posted by rewd

You guys really need to read the ToS.

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Kicking someone is not forcing a play style on them. It's getting away from them. Also an example that I talked out with support. This was from another thread but I think it's relevant to this conversation.

https://i.imgur.com/CEeiDkB.png
https://i.imgur.com/MOcKF9a.png

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

As someone mentioned, any HR training or training for a leadership positions requires this care and professionalism. If you want to be a leader and guide your party to success, then it's an essential skill to pick up.

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"LFM->TEA BJCC prog. Must have a HR degree and 2+ years of experience in a verifiable HR position"

This is what we call making a mountain out of a mole hill. Its very simple dont be a jerk and dont abuse the in game tools provided to deal with actual issues.

This thread is nothing but bait at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Kicking someone is not forcing a play style on them. It's getting away from them. Also an example that I talked out with support. This was from another thread but I think it's relevant to this conversation.

https://i.imgur.com/CEeiDkB.png
https://i.imgur.com/MOcKF9a.png

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Seriously, read the ToS.

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Obstructing Gameplay Using Combat
Refers to an act of obstructive behaviour such as using specific skills in an unintended manner or taking advantage of battle mechanics to interfere with the gameplay of other players.
Key Points
It is prohibited to interfere with the combat of others in the following manner:

Using actions during combat to cause other players to fall from platforms or field areas to incapacitate them.
Using and manipulating enmity-related actions in an effort to incapacitate other players or interfere with gameplay.
Gathering groups of enemies to obstruct the view of others.

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A tank being petty and not doing the job they queued up for and intentionally letting people die is not "difference in playstyle" and it has its own section in the ToS.

Me telling the healer to DPS and the healer answering "I only heal" is, on the other hand, a difference in playstyle. And you can't kick someone for it.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Seriously, read the ToS.



A tank being petty and not doing the job they queued up for and intentionally letting people die is not "difference in playstyle" and it has its own section in the ToS.

Me telling the healer to DPS and the healer answering "I only heal" is, on the other hand, a difference in playstyle. And you can't kick someone for it.

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Hey man I'm just posting what the support guy told me. Do with that what you will.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

If you're worried about rules changing so you have to speak to people politely, it really says more about you.

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its not even that, some people cant even take constructive criticism hence the "you dont pay my sub" types, theres a reason mentors general have stopped talking, there was a rule change awhile back that was similar to this one where you could also be reported

they are, little by little, making the game casual, and soft skin friendly, if you dont know a mechanic or are new to something, you should be the one to speak up, especially if you know that you are constantly getting hit by stuff, theres no way you dont know that your own health is going down, someone else shouldnt have to point that out, and thats the main problem with rules that silence others from being able to point out, in even nice ways, mistakes that others are making

tanks are constantly watching the positions of themselves, the boss, and their teams
healers are constantly watching the tanks positions, and the health bars as well as the boss
dps should be keeping an eye on the tank and boss and a lot have positionals they have to worry about too for max damage

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Hey man I'm just posting what the support guy told me. Do with that what you will.

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We have a freshly updated ToS that classifies your example as "obstructing gameplay" and states, multiple times, that you can't force anything on another player.

I guess you could report a different playstyle if something like this happens:

"Hey, we can handle big pulls, can you do them? They are also a lot of fun"
"I don't care".

But somehow I have my doubts

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Originally Posted by rewd

Seriously, read the ToS.



A tank being petty and not doing the job they queued up for and intentionally letting people die is not "difference in playstyle" and it has its own section in the ToS.

Me telling the healer to DPS and the healer answering "I only heal" is, on the other hand, a difference in playstyle. And you can't kick someone for it.

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what about if its a scholar that says "my pet is my heal" and refuses to do any other healing outside their pet, which isnt even half of their healing? and is only automatic and doesnt use skills associated with the pet? ie queues as scholar but basically plays as a summoner

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Reported for swearing and general condescension throughout the thread. Have a good day.

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Really. What swear word?

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Originally Posted by rewd

We have a freshly updated ToS that classifies your example as "obstructing gameplay" and states, multiple times, that you can't force anything on another player.

I guess you could report a different playstyle if something like this happens:

"Hey, we can handle big pulls, can you do them? They are also a lot of fun"
"I don't care".

But somehow I have my doubts

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well the asking a healer or tank if they can do big pulls (generally more asking the healer) is more to make it so the dungeon is a clean run, if they can handle big pulls, the tank will do big pulls, if not or if they are unsure, the tank will pull small to see what the healer can handle then bigger and bigger to maybe give the healer more confidence in themselves or see what they can actually do if they are unsure of themselves, sometimes its a gear restriction, or sometimes they are distracted irl (though in the latter case, maybe they should drop queue and focus on more important things?)

https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216 Here is a link to the actual update. People should take a look through it. SE made the effort to help make things more clear.

I feel slightly concerned about how they determine what's considered "obstructing gameplay" because I've already encountered instances of people intentionally letting themselves be killed by hunt marks to get others punished for "griefing".

Plus there was that whole fiasco with someone on AetherDC purposefully despawning the SS rank minions to anger people but the GMs somehow couldn't tell that a level 4 BLU repeatedly self-destructing on level 80 enemies wasn't a deliberate act of griefing.