It's not a choice, you are forced to play like that. If you only heal you are "wasting time" and "playing wrong". We are forced to focus on dps even though we are supposed to be healersQuote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
I'm gonna say it. cause no one else will.
Printable View
-
10-24-2021, 02:18 AMlisaa
-
10-24-2021, 02:24 AMMellowMink...What else are you going to do when there's a huge amount of downtime? Just stand around doing nothing? Every combat job expects DPS actions at times, including tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
Even the director in one of the newer interviews said that he doesn't want newer players to have to heal absolutely 100% of the time, and you still need to DPS during story content too; how else will enemy mobs die? -
10-24-2021, 02:24 AMCrimsonGunnernot to mention if you only heal and basically in the run no one gets hit or just heal it simply cause they also have their own healing tools then you just stand there doing nothingQuote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
-
10-24-2021, 02:26 AMHyperiusUltimaYou say it as if it's literally the only thing you can do - and I'm only giving some support to you on what you were saying about healers should heal. How you play is a choice, it's not forced - and if people try to tell you how to play optimally, you make that choice whether you listen or not. Simple as that. Everything we do in this game down to button pressing is a choice. We can decide to heal the tank or decide to cast Glare on a moment's notice. Just because they think you're "wasting time" doesn't mean that you have to adhere to them wanting to go fast. I've already seen the healer shock people got from Holminster Switch when 5.0 dropped the first time - it's gonna be the same way when we go into Zot at 81.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
-
10-24-2021, 02:26 AMCrimsonGunnerSE probably expect us to heal them to death oh wait that will be considered dps so probably we stay at the run until they die of old age.Quote:
Originally Posted by MellowMink
-
10-24-2021, 02:30 AMCrimsonGunnerand what happened next, they still get to use every heal in the book to do that run again and again? no they dont and again it was said we don't mind people want to be a heal bot but we do mind not having the option to do more then just 1 button press the entire run when we are not healing. but no we cant cause you know people don't want to press more then 1 button an entire run and maybe contribute to the success and fast clear of a party.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
-
10-24-2021, 02:30 AMNizziThis "simple concept" is foreign because it's objectively incorrect for how the game is designed and played. It's not the "community" telling you that you have to DPS; it's the game and the fights themselves that demand you do this in order to clear the fights. Going by your statement, tanks should tank, and thus should also have 1 button for a DPS action and then a large amount of "tank buttons", right?Quote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
-
10-24-2021, 02:36 AMlisaaYou can watch the fight, support your team, chat with friends or your fc, or just enjoy the scenery. Theres so much amazing work that goes into the amazing world design that you never see because you are always just rush rush dps dps. Why do you have to be pressing buttons 100% of the time? Humans are adaptive and even if you are pressing buttons all the time you will get used to it and feel bored no matter it is 2.5s or 1s or 0.5s gcd. It's the up and down like a rollercoaster that keeps things exciting.Quote:
Originally Posted by MellowMink
-
10-24-2021, 02:42 AMCrimsonGunnercause you actually entered a content that you are needed to do like i dont know the crazy thought killing all the mobs before the timer runs out? if you want to see the broader world go exploring in the outside maps instead. you wish to see more and take screenshots, they added explorer mode just for that but in battle content that you need to damage something to clear it yea go look for that somewhere else pls. yes people that master their jobs would always wants more but right now you don't even get that rush of challenge if u press 1 button and that is it you master the job with no learning curve thrown to it, you just hit 1 button forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
-
10-24-2021, 03:04 AMSieyaMThat was really the point of my question, I can't imagine anyone honestly believing that adding 2 or 3 more skills or spells would be complex or overwhelming yet people seem to continue to describe adding DPS as being complex or overwhelming.Quote:
Originally Posted by MellowMink
-
10-24-2021, 07:15 AMGrimoire-MBecause the people who think it is are often not experienced enough to realize when they can get away with it. They’ve never actually tried to push themselves to get to that point. They don’t math out how much one healing spell is worth and then use that to get a barometer on how much the rest of their entire kit heals. They don’t press cooldowns in a proactive attempt to solve problems before they happen. They don’t recognize when a mistake another player makes is small enough to not need to be fixed immediately or how to juggle their resources to maximize their ABCs on Glare spam. They don’t let players drop comfortably low enough so that they avoid wasting the potential crit on their heals.Quote:
Originally Posted by SieyaM
That’s because this game doesn’t ask them to. They press one heal every 15 seconds and wait around if people outgear and know the fight. And as such they’re unprepared to actually do their jobs when it’s finally asked of them properly, regardless of whether it’s DPS or healing. And when they venture into content with appropriate challenge (Extreme trials) they are completely unprepared to do what is asked of them. Cause they haven’t been practicing as much as they should be elsewhere.
Healing is all about resource efficiency, the casual content we all choose to do is already tuned for the most basic and inefficient play patterns, and instead of using that familiarity and safety with casual fights to improve at XIV’s overall combat, they ask for WoW levels of healing when statistically speaking SE knows damned well they do not actually want that in practice. As such, the vets who do try to improve ask both for DPS options and healing kits to be made in a way that rewards synergy with the understanding they are strictly a bonus, not a requirement, in said casual content. And those same people are who get shot down as this same conversation loop happens over and over.
The new guys need a tutorial and to attempt extremes at endwalker’s endgame for at least a tier before complaining about content. They are already being catered to. The vets whether they want more healing or DPS already understand SE’s stance on keeping things simple for the new guys. They’re asking for more depth within the current framework. In an ideal world fights would slow down a bit, trim off their peaks slightly, amp up their sustained damage sources, and still ask healers to DPS sometimes, just with a few extra buttons and probably some Assize/TBN like bonuses that let them do both. -
10-24-2021, 07:43 AMMelorieWhat do you even mean by supporting your team or "enjoy the scenery"? This is so vague and doesn't even make sense. Supporting your team is giving all you can and not standing still. I bet they don't want a support that is standing there doing nothing... Go and ask for explorable mode for every duty then instead of asking for everyone else to be bored, some people want to play the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
-
10-24-2021, 07:48 AMHyoMinParkThe issue with this is that the battle content in this game has never called for even 50% healing uptime. Even the hardest content in the game has healers dealing damage more than they are actually healing—when I cleared UCoB on AST, I had more casts of Malefic than I ever had of all of my healing spells combined. In an 18-minute long fight. And I was playing it super safe by the time we got to adds and Golden Bahamut.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
The good healers would not complain if there was more stuff to heal. They have been begging for more stuff for heal for years now. Especially with ShB, because the healers got so many new and cool tools, but they are overkill for most content if you have a half-competent party. But the developers won’t add it because they also do not want to overwhelm the less skilled healers.
I have honestly never understood the choice some healers make to just stand around and do nothing when no one is taking damage. I’ve actually tried that in content before, and was bored out of my skull. It’s also a bit frustrating from the perspective of the group, since this game is all about teamwork, and we could clear the content much faster if everyone was pulling equal amounts of weight. I won’t lie and say that it doesn’t irritate me when I see a healer spamming Cure I on a tank when the tank is at 95% HP, or even worse, JUMPING or EMOTING while the other people are killing stuff.
You standing around doing nothing is not “supporting your team”. And if you have time to chat with your friends or FC, get out of the dungeon and do that, then. I have no patience for people that feel they can partially AFK in an instance while the rest of their party carries them on their backs.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
No other role is allowed to stand around and do nothing. Why do healers get this “special treatment”? People would get frustrated at a DPS or a tank if they decided to just “watch the fight” or “admire the scenery”. Healers are no different. They aren’t special roles that get to be some exception… -
10-24-2021, 07:50 AMForteNightshadeBy this logic, I guess DPS and Tanks can't enjoy the scenery or chitchat with their friends. They're too busy actually participating in the game instead of wasting their teammates' time by "supporting" them with /cheerQuote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
-
10-24-2021, 07:58 AMMelorieIkr? People want to have a job in which they can AFK and put 0 effort and if we find that lazy or bad design you're being rude, or you want to play a DPS. Give me a break.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
-
10-24-2021, 08:02 AMBaconBits
So I heard spamming Medica 2 into Bee's Knees is a true combo.
-
10-24-2021, 08:18 AMty_taurusI know right!? I feel the exact same way about driving. Why do I ALWAYS have to pay attention to the road? Sometimes I want to have a nice phone chat with my friends, watch the birds flying by, eat my lunch, shave my legs, do my taxes... etc. The world is such a beautiful place and we're always so focused on our next destination. When's the last time you've had a chance to really embrace the world around you instead of just looking back and forth around you for other cars or pedestrians? That's gets really boring after a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisaa
-
10-24-2021, 08:42 AMinhaledcorn
I'm tempted to believe lisaa is an alt account for our dear "friend" Victoria since they're basically the only one here who agrees with OP, and they have no post history other than what's posted in this thread.
Either that, or they're a really bad troll. -
10-24-2021, 08:55 AMMimilu
Why are you all taking VictoriaLuv serious?
They're either a really obvious, low-grade troll trying to provoke more healer drama or someone who's head is so up their butt they can't understand how the game is played and refuses to learn. Just let there threads die. >x> -
10-24-2021, 09:33 AMSilver-Strider
I'm gonna say it cause no one else will.
Lilybell is a garbage skill. -
10-24-2021, 09:49 AMSemirhageThat's because the unfortunate part about the "nice" "welcoming" FFXIV community that you're not supposed to talk about is, some of that "niceness" is anything but. FFXIV prizes bitchy Mean Girls passive aggression, blocking, silently kicking people, etc over actually discussing anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melorie
The "toxic casual" portion of the community doesn't want a discussion about designing healers well or what good design means. They want to go through dungeons with minimum effort. And if you don't, prepare for these forums to tell you you're not a "real healer". I've certainly heard it a dozen times.
Which is hilarious in its irony. Because it's coming from people who bitched and moaned about the role when it actually required dedication or practice to learn, but love it now that it requires neither. But *I* don't like healing. -
10-24-2021, 09:51 AMMimiluLilybell's okay. I think it would be better if it could be assigned to a partymember and activating when they take damage (like the tank) vs it going off when the caster gets hit. Also, its AoE should be 30 yalms so it isn't wasted when the party has to spread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
(Aesthetically, I think its too cutesy and is a bit on the gaudy-side. They built WHM up to be elegant and refined but then added this kawaii water heart with flowers on it.) -
10-24-2021, 09:52 AMrewdWhy? It automatically heals for you so you can keep spamming Glare. Sounds awesome!Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
(Do I need a /s?) -
10-24-2021, 10:09 AMRinaB
I'm on VictoriaLuv's side. It's so bad nowadays you'll have 2 dead tanks in and man and the healers are standing there dpsing while I'm trying to stay alive with second wind, blood for blood and eyes. Do your jobs before you complain about more dps spells because right now it's hard to find healers who even do the most basic mechanics let alone heal anyone. I main a dps to smash enemies down as quickly and optimally as possible. Tanks hold agro, position, soak damage etc. How come we have to do our jobs and you people not only can't lately but are arguing that you shouldn't have to? If your dps is boring go play blm?
-
10-24-2021, 11:32 AMBaconBitshttps://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...02/825/33d.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by RinaB
-
10-24-2021, 11:39 AMRein_eon_OsborneAnd how often is this ‘so bad nowadays’?Quote:
Originally Posted by RinaB
1 out of 10 runs? 3 out of 10 runs? 5 out of 10 runs? 8 out of 10 runs?
Where are you finding those Glaroilfisis-bots? Send them to my side, I want to actually do my job for the role I picked. :p -
10-24-2021, 12:45 PMNobleWinter
I hate it here.
-
10-24-2021, 12:48 PMDrkdaysClearly you never tried DRK before it's major changes. It HAS been streamlined. Threading Dark Arts into your rotation took a lot of work and it won't be missed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
And if you're holding still the entire fight as a tank you're doing it wrong. The game mechanics aren't that simple. Same goes for healers even if all they do is heal. Positioning is so important in this game, yet "some" healers want more actionbar distractions? Ridiculous. -
10-24-2021, 12:50 PMNizziThat's dodging my question and irrelevant to it. Do you support tanks having their DPS options becoming 1 or 2 buttons? Healers do more damage than you, so why do you get to have more actions than we do to accomplish less DPS?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
-
10-24-2021, 12:56 PMVictoriaLuvsomeone actually agrees with me. these people want to destroy healer. all they have to do is make healer heal more. make sure healer has no down-time at all no one want dps skills. these people want to destroy the healer. they don't want a healer. they want there main tanks to die. cause healer to busy dpsing. cause to lazy cause a heal spell when it needed . this is issue most of these people troll other people on the forums. take there time attacking other players. people don't like me cause am agressive and tell it to it to them straight with no care to there feelingsQuote:
Originally Posted by RinaB
we people who love healing love our job should stand up. say no to this wanting more dps skills isn't gonna fix healer. no forcing healer to actually heal or whole raid dies is important. implement dungeon boss world fates. even trash monsters with mechanic that do bloody tank busters. never designed to be black mages have 20 button rotation. seriously anyone who asking heals have new dps opinions really go play dps. let people who been healing sense arr do there thing -
10-24-2021, 12:57 PMDrkdaysAsking if I support tanks having a one or two button dps rotation (enmity rotation, actually) is the same as asking if you support a healer with one or two healing buttons. You do see that, don't you? Your metaphor makes no sense in this context. One or two wouldn't be enough to fulfill the role. Dps options for healers on the other hand...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
-
10-24-2021, 01:01 PMVictoriaLuvHealers are not tanks don't even compare them as same. don't even put them in same catagory that mentally is false. most tanks have 1.2 aoe rotation with weaving damage = enimity = as long tank stance is active and they have hit targets 2-3 times they have perma threatQuote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
Healers however vast majority of them. need to focus on healing. not dps. you have 8 people to heal. running around willy nilly not only do have heal them you have buff them as well. watch should be the case. but people complaining bout downtime. adding more dps abilities isn't it. if the game too easy for these people perhap they should make it so hard that dont have any breathing time at all
What they should do is what there doing adding buffs . targetable buffs. support abilities and making content harder so that dps window isn't big at all -
10-24-2021, 01:03 PMNizziOne or two WOULD be enough to fulfill the role. After all, tanks should be tanking. You need to hit your mitigations and make sure you're tanking the damage from the boss. We should give tanks more mitigation buttons for them to be pressing in the fights. You wouldn't believe how many tanks I see who are focused on DPS and never hit any of their mitigations. After all, if it's bad when healers do it and reason enough for healers to not have more varied DPS options, the exact argument applies equally so for tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
You say that one or two wouldn't be enough to fulfill the role. Why? You do less damage than healers do. Is it because you wouldn't have fun if you were spamming Unmend over and over in a fight, even if they buffed the potency of it? So why is that suitable for us? Do you think you're the only one who deserves to have fun? -
10-24-2021, 01:14 PMQooErActually spamming unmend is more than enough to hold aggro, in fact its even more effective than doing your dps rotation because it has increased enmity :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
Your job as a tank is only only to hold aggro and mitigate damage. So obviously you only need unmend, and not hard slash, syphon strike, soul eater, flood of shadow, edge of shadow, plunge, carve and spit, bloodspiller, quietus, stalwart soul nor living shadow. Hell you dont even need unleash, bring back flash so you can focus on your real duty. Do you have ADD? -
10-24-2021, 01:16 PMty_taurusAmen, my friend, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by NobleWinter
-
10-24-2021, 01:19 PMDrkdays
By that logic two buttons would be enough for all classes. Who needs diversity?
But that's not what you really want. You want a white mage that go full super saiyan and do the work of a black mage, too.
Dark knights have a full kit to support themselves in and out of dungeons and so do healers, but in groups they have a specific role and they are given a wide range of abilities to make it possible. Same goes for healers, BUT WAIT healers can do more. They have a massive amount of healer spells AND they can even add dps. But for some, even that singularly unique trait that no other class apart from healers can claim, that just doesn't seem to be enough.
Tanks who heal? Nope. Dps that tank? Nope. Tanks who dps? Barely. Dps that heal? Barely.
Healers who dps? Absolutely, and far better than tanks but NOT GOOD ENOUGH?! -
10-24-2021, 01:21 PMDoru_NintendanI suggest you run. It's gonna get only worse from here on out.Quote:
Originally Posted by NobleWinter
-
10-24-2021, 01:22 PMQooErim glad you found the flaws in your own logicQuote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
-
10-24-2021, 01:24 PMKarthunkThe Devs already told them the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by VictoriaLuv
-
10-24-2021, 01:26 PMDrkdaysIf you stop reading after the first sentence you'll never graduate.Quote:
Originally Posted by QooEr