Thoughts of Samurai Changes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Acece

Almost all the new raids give damage down instead of a vuln up, its probably not going to be a problem.

---

I like the doom counter more, personally. I really hope they keep that one going forward in the other raids. Two for normal. One in savage, or none depending on the mechanic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Overall thoughts put simply are:
Why Shoha 2?
Seigan was like a parry. It will be missed
"I am SAM, I specialize in double Iaijutsu, not flashy finishers." *sigh*
AF chest piece will clip my hair. Bummer.

What I got excited about the most was QoL changes with AoE, which is actually a pretty big deal as it was also my biggest gripe. Should still be a solid choice, and I will adapt to the changes.

---

Meh. There was no need for AoE Yuki, unless Fuga was just outright upgraded to a circular instead of a cone. AoE Yuki doesn't really serve a purpose. Better QoL would have been making Fuga>Oka>Mag a "1,2,3" instead of a "1,2,1,3." Get the necessary sen up one GCD earlier.

AoE Shoha should have just been tacked on to ST Shoha as a trait.

There isn't a doubt in my mind that they added these two buttons merely to replace the two they took away. Wasn't necessary at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazimere

Meh. There was no need for AoE Yuki, unless Fuga was just outright upgraded to a circular instead of a cone. AoE Yuki doesn't really serve a purpose. Better QoL would have been making Fuga>Oka>Mag a "1,2,3" instead of a "1,2,1,3." Get the necessary sen up one GCD earlier.

AoE Shoha should have just been tacked on to ST Shoha as a trait.

There isn't a doubt in my mind that they added these two buttons merely to replace the two they took away. Wasn't necessary at all.

---

Gee thanks. I was excited. No cake for you party pooper.

Be that is it may, I still like that they went outside the box a bit instead of just a standard 1,2,3 AoE combo. Truth of the matter I see is that SAM's AoE is one of the weakest in game as far as engagement, being just a tad above healer AoE. They literally needed anything.

Issue with traited Shoha is losing an animation, and option on the spender. Again, this is something [animations] that is not strong with SAM, and they can use the help wherever they can get it. So I wouldn't want to lose Shoha for the sake of button bloat. It's also an earned skill much like MNKs forbidden chakra, so having ST and AoE spenders on such skills is pretty important imho. The reason why I said, "Why Shoha 2?" is because of the name. I really hope they change it to something more along the lines of SAM identity. Surely they have a cool sounding term that directly translates to "multiple cut technique" or something? It can't just be "Shoha 2" xD

personally i think SAM is really fun in AOE,
especially when you turn into a blender Kyuten but adding separate AOE buttons are unneeded like a AOE yukikaze was not needed AOE shoha could have been upgraded to AOE from regular,
they upgraded spirits within and gave it AOE not sure why they couldnt do it for other jobs and it probably be much more interesting give buttons we use all the time a new animation then another button only for dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Gee thanks. I was excited. No cake for you party pooper.

Be that is it may, I still like that they went outside the box a bit instead of just a standard 1,2,3 AoE combo. Truth of the matter I see is that SAM's AoE is one of the weakest in game as far as engagement, being just a tad above healer AoE. They literally needed anything.

Issue with traited Shoha is losing an animation, and option on the spender. Again, this is something [animations] that is not strong with SAM, and they can use the help wherever they can get it. So I wouldn't want to lose Shoha for the sake of button bloat. It's also an earned skill much like MNKs forbidden chakra, so having ST and AoE spenders on such skills is pretty important imho. The reason why I said, "Why Shoha 2?" is because of the name. I really hope they change it to something more along the lines of SAM identity. Surely they have a cool sounding term that directly translates to "multiple cut technique" or something? It can't just be "Shoha 2" xD

---

The thought process doesn't change with two different buttons.

One to two targets, do Shoha 1; three plus, do Shoha 2 (as per the EW TTs). Shares a resource and will probably share CD.
One to two targets, do Shinten; three plus, do Kyuten (the potency difference is so small you'd probably just Kyuten at 2+ though). Shares a resource.
One target, do Senei; two plus, do Guren. Shares a resource and a CD.

You are merely counting how many mobs are up, and using either ST or AoE. At least with a fall off ability, you may want to think about which target gets your big hit, as opposed to the splash. Guren is the only ability that has that thought process, and it is unfortunate that it will never get used outside of trash pulls in dungeons...probably.

That's three buttons that could either not exist, or be used for something that's more interactive to the job as a whole.

AoE Yuki serves absolutely no purpose. It would be one thing if any combination of Setsu and Getsu/ Ka would allow for AoE Higa, but they do not. Now, instead of 1,2,1,3, Tekka, repeat, it will be 1,2,1,4, Tekka, 1,3,1,4, Tekka, repeat.

It's AoE. It boggles my mind why people care so much about involved AoE rotations for dungeon trash.

I hear you on the animations. A cleave ability can get cool animations too. And, let's be real. How well are you really seeing those animations when you're in the middle of a trash pack trying to dodge AoE?

Ikishoten going to two minutes is annoying as well. Tying the capstone to meditation stacks would have been better than tying it to our low CD kenki generation ability. Shoha could have turned into whatever the new ability is called at: let's call it two Shoha uses, or however many you can get in a 90 to 120s period. Kinda like Geirskogul for Dragoon. That would have reinforced better play than "push this button every two minutes three times." Why? Because if you messed up you may not get your super midare inside buff window.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Gee thanks. I was excited. No cake for you party pooper.

Be that is it may, I still like that they went outside the box a bit instead of just a standard 1,2,3 AoE combo. Truth of the matter I see is that SAM's AoE is one of the weakest in game as far as engagement, being just a tad above healer AoE. They literally needed anything.

Issue with traited Shoha is losing an animation, and option on the spender. Again, this is something [animations] that is not strong with SAM, and they can use the help wherever they can get it. So I wouldn't want to lose Shoha for the sake of button bloat. It's also an earned skill much like MNKs forbidden chakra, so having ST and AoE spenders on such skills is pretty important imho. The reason why I said, "Why Shoha 2?" is because of the name. I really hope they change it to something more along the lines of SAM identity. Surely they have a cool sounding term that directly translates to "multiple cut technique" or something? It can't just be "Shoha 2" xD

---

I... what? Samurai is is one of the most engaging aoe jobs in the game. And how can you say they went outside the box when all they did was add another aoe move that is exactly the same as the other 2 ring aor's in terms of how it impacts you mechanically, and then an aoe version of a skill that already exists? Also a big midare for their final skill. It's super boring design and frankly kind of tedious. I don't want aoe versions of all of my dang skills. I would very much prefer for them to kill most of this split and just make the moves aoe to begin with so they can maybe give us some more interesting skills in their place. And they're probably going to have to since I am pretty sure my bars are going to be 35/36 slots filled after Endwalker so something's going to have to give.

Or at least have these dumb split skills do more than just be damage. I wouldn't grouse so much if Senei applied higenbana for example, or some other effect besides just gurren but single target.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazimere

I liked Ikishoten being on a 60s CD, but Senei/Guren being on a 120. It gave us a reliable source of Kenki throughout an encounter, and it let us have more Shinten/Kyuten when Senei/Guren was on CD. Personally, I'd have taken a 60s Ikishoten over a souped up midare anyday. That's just me though. They could have implemented the capstone a better way than tying it to Ikishoten. Tying it to meditation stacks and Shoha usage would have been ideal.

---

Definitely agree. There were plenty of ways of handling it that didn't involve doubling Ikishoten's cooldown. They could have tied it to Guren/Senei instead, tbh, and it would have the exact same usage pattern as now, without requiring Ikishoten to be 120s. In fact, I'm a bit astonished they didn't attach it to Guren/Senei, it seems like an obvious target for it.

They could instead make it work like Life of the Dragon, where each usage of Ikishoten or Tsubame granted a stack. Downside is that it wouldn't be available on the pull (and in fact, would desync, because you'd get the 2nd stack at the 60s mark), but they could fix that by having either the first usage in a given combat session grant 2 stacks, or have an ability like Reaper's Soulsow that's only realistically usable outside of combat and grants a stack, so the first usage would bump it to 2 stacks and thus allow usage.

Personally, I'd prefer just tying it to Guren/Senei instead, though.

Quote:

---

The filler GCDs in the rotation are a known annoyance. We don't know if that is going away either. I'm going to be pretty annoyed if I have to use Yaten>Enpi to maintain CD timers (I don't like using movement abilities for filler or a DPS increase at all). I use Yaki filler right now, and it's just meh as well. I really hope that was on their radar and this stuff aims to mitigate that.

---

Personally, I think Samurai could use a charge-based or resource-consuming GCD attack, similar to Sabre Dance for Dancers, which serves a very valuable role for aligning GCDs prior to Flourish. In the case of Samurai, it should probably be designed as something that's essentially a null DPS gain/loss, so it can be used or not used as needed.

If they added a new on GCD melee that did ~500 potency and cost 10 Kenki, it would land at the same potency as Yaten + Enhanced Enpi + Gyoten, and the same cost, without requiring the movement, and fill a similar role, delaying the GCD sequence to align better. Or alternatively, closer to ~370 potency (based on the potencies in the EW tooltips) and not have it cost Kenki. Maybe drop the potency slightly from a "null" potency level, so using it is a small potency loss, made back up by allowing the burst sequence to properly align, to prevent that new ability from simply being spammed (could also give it charges to help prevent that, though with a relatively short CD so it's generally readily available for its intended GCD-alignment purpose).

Actually, that highlights that, unless they changed it since the media demo, the Yaten + Enpi combo actually got pretty considerably buffed. Most of our abilities had a reduction of ~20% potency (ex. Gekko 480 -> 370, Yakikaze 360 -> 280, Midare 800 -> 660), while the Enpi combo potency didn't change. It's still 100 + 300 + 100, costing 10 Kenki. That means it got, in effect, a ~25% buff relative to most of our other abilities.

Now, our "standard" 9-GCD cycle, generating all 3 Sen and using Midare, currently does a total of 3360 potency, plus generates 60 Kenki. Assuming 20 of that is used on Kaiten for Midare, that's 3760 potency and +40 Kenki net. Kenki's "spammable" spender is Shinten, currently at 320 potency for 25 Kenki, or 12.8 potency per Kenki, which means 40 Kenki is equivalent to 512 potency. That's a net of 4272 potency, or 474.7 potency per GCD. The Enpi combo currently does 500 potency and costs 10 Kenki (though it could instead do 400 and cost no Kenki if you skip Gyoten and just run back in, resulting in slightly better efficiency). The 10 Kenki cost is equivalent to 128 potency lost from not being able to use it on Shinten, so the net for that GCD is 372, or 400 flat if you skip Gyoten and simply run back in during the Enpi GCD. In either case, a net loss.

However, with the reduced potency, we do only 2960 potency with our Sen combo, including Kaiten on Midare. Shinten is down to 270 potency, meaning each Kenki is worth 10.8 potency, so the 40 Kenki surplus is now only worth 432 potency. Total is 3392, or 376.9 potency per GCD (reminder that potencies are going down, but not really actual damage, because of the change to the damage formula in EW). That means that the Enpi combo with Gyoten is only barely a DPS loss, and without it is actually a DPS gain (~23 potency per GCD).

And that's a bit problematic. Because it means that optimal DPS for Samurai, outside of the raid buff window, is actually probably going to be spamming the Enpi combo (and running back in after each, so it's null cost on Kenki). I really hope they notice that and drop the potency of the Enpi combo to compensate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedys

Actually, that highlights that, unless they changed it since the media demo, the Yaten + Enpi combo actually got pretty considerably buffed. Most of our abilities had a reduction of ~20% potency (ex. Gekko 480 -> 370, Yakikaze 360 -> 280, Midare 800 -> 660), while the Enpi combo potency didn't change. It's still 100 + 300 + 100, costing 10 Kenki. That means it got, in effect, a ~25% buff relative to most of our other abilities.

Now, our "standard" 9-GCD cycle, generating all 3 Sen and using Midare, currently does a total of 3360 potency, plus generates 60 Kenki. Assuming 20 of that is used on Kaiten for Midare, that's 3760 potency and +40 Kenki net. Kenki's "spammable" spender is Shinten, currently at 320 potency for 25 Kenki, or 12.8 potency per Kenki, which means 40 Kenki is equivalent to 512 potency. That's a net of 4272 potency, or 474.7 potency per GCD. The Enpi combo currently does 500 potency and costs 10 Kenki (though it could instead do 400 and cost no Kenki if you skip Gyoten and just run back in, resulting in slightly better efficiency). The 10 Kenki cost is equivalent to 128 potency lost from not being able to use it on Shinten, so the net for that GCD is 372, or 400 flat if you skip Gyoten and simply run back in during the Enpi GCD. In either case, a net loss.

However, with the reduced potency, we do only 2960 potency with our Sen combo, including Kaiten on Midare. Shinten is down to 270 potency, meaning each Kenki is worth 10.8 potency, so the 40 Kenki surplus is now only worth 432 potency. Total is 3392, or 376.9 potency per GCD (reminder that potencies are going down, but not really actual damage, because of the change to the damage formula in EW). That means that the Enpi combo with Gyoten is only barely a DPS loss, and without it is actually a DPS gain (~23 potency per GCD).

And that's a bit problematic. Because it means that optimal DPS for Samurai, outside of the raid buff window, is actually probably going to be spamming the Enpi combo (and running back in after each, so it's null cost on Kenki). I really hope they notice that and drop the potency of the Enpi combo to compensate.

---

Yeah, I read that as well. If that is the case, I assume that they will hit Enpi with a nerf. I'd like to see it get hit so hard that it is taken out of the rotation as a filler entirely. Not a fan of using my movement utility for anything but movement. Sam is lucky on that front, since it's tied to our gauge and is weak enough compared to the others that it doesn't get used for anything but movement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedys

Definitely agree. There were plenty of ways of handling it that didn't involve doubling Ikishoten's cooldown. They could have tied it to Guren/Senei instead, tbh, and it would have the exact same usage pattern as now, without requiring Ikishoten to be 120s. In fact, I'm a bit astonished they didn't attach it to Guren/Senei, it seems like an obvious target for it.

They could instead make it work like Life of the Dragon, where each usage of Ikishoten or Tsubame granted a stack. Downside is that it wouldn't be available on the pull (and in fact, would desync, because you'd get the 2nd stack at the 60s mark), but they could fix that by having either the first usage in a given combat session grant 2 stacks, or have an ability like Reaper's Soulsow that's only realistically usable outside of combat and grants a stack, so the first usage would bump it to 2 stacks and thus allow usage.

Personally, I'd prefer just tying it to Guren/Senei instead, though.



Personally, I think Samurai could use a charge-based or resource-consuming GCD attack, similar to Sabre Dance for Dancers, which serves a very valuable role for aligning GCDs prior to Flourish. In the case of Samurai, it should probably be designed as something that's essentially a null DPS gain/loss, so it can be used or not used as needed.

If they added a new on GCD melee that did ~500 potency and cost 10 Kenki, it would land at the same potency as Yaten + Enhanced Enpi + Gyoten, and the same cost, without requiring the movement, and fill a similar role, delaying the GCD sequence to align better. Or alternatively, closer to ~370 potency (based on the potencies in the EW tooltips) and not have it cost Kenki. Maybe drop the potency slightly from a "null" potency level, so using it is a small potency loss, made back up by allowing the burst sequence to properly align, to prevent that new ability from simply being spammed (could also give it charges to help prevent that, though with a relatively short CD so it's generally readily available for its intended GCD-alignment purpose).

---

I like the idea of a GCD attack that is dps nuetral, uses resource, and provides filler. This is all provided that filler is still necessary come EW. Another one sen hit that wasn't a DoT would be nice as well, but I don't know if they can swing that. I don't see why not though, since they do it for ninja with its mudras.

Whatever the capstone was tied to is irrelevant at this point. I'd have personally preferred meditation stacks, but Senei/Guren works as well. Anything but Ikishoten. It's lazy and hurts our Kenki generation for no reason.

AoE Yukikaze does higher potency than other 2, just FYI.
So if you've got both buffs already then you're gonna need to do the AoE Yukikaze anyway.
but personally, I would prefer more kenki generate than higher potency so we can use more kyuten.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazimere

Yeah, I read that as well. If that is the case, I assume that they will hit Enpi with a nerf. I'd like to see it get hit so hard that it is taken out of the rotation as a filler entirely. Not a fan of using my movement utility for anything but movement. Sam is lucky on that front, since it's tied to our gauge and is weak enough compared to the others that it doesn't get used for anything but movement.

---

I disagree, using enpi for a filler is great when sam needs to disengage from the boss without losing uptime. It's also not breaking combos in endwalker so its even better, it also looks sick as hell when you time it properly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazimere

The thought process doesn't change with two different buttons.

---

It does when you change the effects on existing buttons. Now that I have more time, and can get into this a bit more; what I should have initially mentioned with SAM AoE and the QoL of it are the changes to AoE combo finishers granting our buffs instead of just extending them. A big problem I have with SAM AoE is I either have to resort to ST in order to put up my buffs if they are down, or burn up my Meikyo. Now I will be able to just go right into AoE, and that is what I meant when I said I got excited for the SAM QoL changes to AoE, and that it is very significant. I honestly don't know why you even made it about Hyosetsu. But I digress.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazimere

AoE Yuki serves absolutely no purpose. It would be one thing if any combination of Setsu and Getsu/ Ka would allow for AoE Higa, but they do not. Now, instead of 1,2,1,3, Tekka, repeat, it will be 1,2,1,4, Tekka, 1,3,1,4, Tekka, repeat.

---

The purpose of Hyosetsu is foregoing refreshing either of your buffs in favor of a slight pot increase. As you have pointed out, we currently go 1,2,1,3, Goken, repeat, in EW we will be alternating 2 and 3 after each Goken. It's not wildly different, but that's also not what I was getting wildly excited about. However, it is still more engaging than current SAM AoE. There are 3 GCDs and Goken before you have to alternate, so it is entirely possible to still use the wrong skill, and have one of your buffs drop off for the next Goken, which would be pretty bad if pushing DPS. I for one favor a slight combo tree opposed to streamlining skills, especially on melee DPS jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazimere

It's AoE. It boggles my mind why people care so much about involved AoE rotations for dungeon trash.

---

Why does it boggle your mind that people don't want to faceplant from boredom burning down dungeon trash? There is also the factor that we spend A LOT of time in dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Acece

I disagree, using enpi for a filler is great when sam needs to disengage from the boss without losing uptime. It's also not breaking combos in endwalker so its even better, it also looks sick as hell when you time it properly.

---

Sure, it's a great mechanic for offsetting melee downtime. What I don't want to see is it being used in the normal rotation. And unless it gets nerfed, that's what's going to happen, because Yaten + Enhanced Enpi is higher DPS per GCD than the average in our 3x Sen -> Midare sequence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kahnom

AoE Yukikaze does higher potency than other 2, just FYI.
So if you've got both buffs already then you're gonna need to do the AoE Yukikaze anyway.
but personally, I would prefer more kenki generate than higher potency so we can use more kyuten.

---

I mean, it does 10 potency more, every other GCD. Is it worth using with current tuning? Sure, why not. The concern is more that there seems to be little reason for it to have been implemented in the first place. We basically never need more than 2 Sen in AoE anyway, since we want to use Tenka instead of Midare. So being able to generate the Setsu Sen in AoE is a bit...well, superfluous. It's a button just for the sake of having a button, it doesn't really enhance our AoE rotation in any meaningful way. It's a good example of SE implementing an ability not because the job has a meaningful rotational gap, but simply because they wanted to hit some arbitrary threshold of number of buttons, and had removed two others (the Third Eye combos).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkdra

I... what? Samurai is is one of the most engaging aoe jobs in the game. And how can you say they went outside the box when all they did was add another aoe move that is exactly the same as the other 2 ring aor's in terms of how it impacts you mechanically, and then an aoe version of a skill that already exists?

---

Like I explained in my last post, Hyosetsu has a slight pot increase over Oka and Mangetsu, but it does not refresh your buffs.

As for the engaging AoE, even my lv60 DRG has better AoE than SAM, and DRG's only gets stronger through cap with some very impressive and rewarding skills, and it is going to get even better in EW. Can you say the same about SAM? Maybe you can, but I know I can't. There's a reason why I never take my SAM into dungeons beyond when I am leveling it. I'm definitely not saying it isn't good from a DPS standpoint. If both Iko and Guren are up, along with double Gokens going out, it can be satisfying going into Tasmanian Devil mode. It's just not very engaging in comparison to other jobs I've played.

When it comes to skills that have ST and AoE variants. It would actually be interesting to hear from the devs exactly how they make this determination.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedys

Sure, it's a great mechanic for offsetting melee downtime. What I don't want to see is it being used in the normal rotation. And unless it gets nerfed, that's what's going to happen, because Yaten + Enhanced Enpi is higher DPS per GCD than the average in our 3x Sen -> Midare sequence.

---

enpi just needs to do more damage then hakaze and it should be good, I don't like using hakaze as a filler instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Acece

enpi just needs to do more damage then hakaze and it should be good, I don't like using hakaze has a filler instead.

---

Well, it's a bit more than that. The consideration, even without it breaking combos, is whether it's worth using for a relatively short run. If you only need to backstep for part of a GCD, if Enpi is too low, it can actually be a DPS gain to run out, not use Enpi (or Yaten to get the range in the first place, since it costs 10 Kenki), and simply run back in after the AoE. The threshold where it's better to wait rather than use Enpi depends on the potency of Yaten + Enpi versus the potency of the average GCD in the rotation. And that threshold is not necessarily just Hakaze. The average GCD does ~2.5 times as much potency as Hakaze does (specifically, average GCD in the Midare sequence is worth ~380 potency), even with the EW changes. If Yaten + Enpi did only ~150 potency, it'd be a DPS loss to use it even if you'd otherwise have wasted over half a GCD period before getting back into melee range.

However, the threshold is much lower in EW than it was in ShB, simply because Enpi no longer breaks combos, so it's purely a potency comparison now. Probably somewhere around 250-300 combined potency between the two would work fine. If it were 50 potency for both Yaten and Gyoten, and then 200 for Enhanced Enpi, it would be generally worth using in most need-to-get-out-of-melee situations, without being worth using rotationally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Acece

I disagree, using enpi for a filler is great when sam needs to disengage from the boss without losing uptime. It's also not breaking combos in endwalker so its even better, it also looks sick as hell when you time it properly.

---

Yeah, I'm good with using it for what it's designed to be used as, which is just as you stated: great for when SAM NEEDS to disengage. That's not filler. What I don't want to see, is us using it to fill spaces to line up CDs when we a;ready have uptime. Disengaging and throwing a ranged as we run back in because it's the most damaging way to fill the gap in the rotation is just...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kahnom

AoE Yukikaze does higher potency than other 2, just FYI.
So if you've got both buffs already then you're gonna need to do the AoE Yukikaze anyway.
but personally, I would prefer more kenki generate than higher potency so we can use more kyuten.

---

Yeah, I know. I still don't like it. I'd rather have your suggestion on more Kenki than just a bit more damage, but it'd have to be a bit for me to bother dealing with it on dungeon trash. Personally, I think they missed an opportunity for AoE Higa when they added it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazimere

Yeah, I'm good with using it for what it's designed to be used as, which is just as you stated: great for when SAM NEEDS to disengage. That's not filler. What I don't want to see, is us using it to fill spaces to line up CDs when we a;ready have uptime. Disengaging and throwing a ranged as we run back in because it's the most damaging way to fill the gap in the rotation is just...

---

I just think it's the most interesting 1 gcd filler we have, that's why I like it. There's also the 2/3 gcd build if you dislike enpi that much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Snip

---

Don't disagree with the QoL from buffs being applied instead of refreshed. I'm for that. AoE Yuki and Shoha are seperate. Maybe I should have stated my concurrence with the QoL change upfront, before taking it down that rabbit hole though. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on the AoE Yuki, as well as AoE Shoha being a completely separate button. I see your perspective, but I just can't get on board with it. If there was an actual purpose behind it that wasn't "we took two away so now we add two" then maybe I wouldn't have such a bad taste in my mouth. There wasn't a rotation gap in Sam's AoE (as someone else stated). The issue was the buffs only refreshing instead of applying, of which they have corrected going into EW.

To piggyback to you post talking about Dragoon. I wouldn't call it anymore engaging than SAM from its basic AoE rotation. It's just a 1,2,3 that is turning into a 1,2,3,1 come EW. Where I do agree with you about it though, is that DRG has a few AoE CDs that get rotated in. Here's the thing though, those get used in ST as well. They didn't give DRG a ST Geirskogul and an AoE version. They have one. Their new capstone is also combined, so it will be used in ST and AoE, and their new AoE GCD actually plays into their capstone, because it gives a scale. Their jumps don't share CDs, so they all get used whether ST or AoE. They have a lot of oGCDs though, as is their design. However, that doesn't mean change that a lot of their abilities are just outright designed better, IMO.

Why are we sitting here with a button added to our AoE that doesn't really serve a purpose except for a little more damage? It doesn't get us to our finisher sooner. It doesn't reduce the CD on Ikishoten for more capstone. It doesn't add AoE higa. It's just...10 potency as of now.

Why are we sitting here with an AoE Shoha when they could have just given it a trait to do AoE?

streamlining real estate is not the same thing as dumbing down gameplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Acece

I just think it's the most interesting 1 gcd filler we have, that's why I like it. There's also the 2/3 gcd build if you dislike enpi that much.

---

I won't argue that it's more interesting than a Haka/Yuki or another Getsu/Ka iteration. It definitely is. However, I'm opposed to using movement abilities outside of their intended purposes in general. Disengages most of all. If I had my way, no gap closer or disengage would have damage attached to it, and they wouldn't buff any ranged ability.

Im excited to see aoe rotation applying the damage and speed buffs, makes it feel batter to use aoe without having to go through 2 partial single target rotations first to get the buffs up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazimere

I won't argue that it's more interesting than a Haka/Yuki or another Getsu/Ka iteration. It definitely is. However, I'm opposed to using movement abilities outside of their intended purposes in general. Disengages most of all. If I had my way, no gap closer or disengage would have damage attached to it, and they wouldn't buff any ranged ability.

---

I honestly don't mind it buffing Enpi, tbh. I like that mechanism, because it allows you to intelligently use your disengage to mitigate what would otherwise just be dead rotational time from being out of melee range. It rewards you for playing intelligently. What I don't want is for Enpi to have a use case outside of "being in melee is currently bad for my health". Reaper has a similar mechanism with their teleport. Their ranged attack, Harpe, has a 1.3s cast normally, but is made into an instacast when they use their teleport. It still doesn't make it worth using in their normal single-target rotation, but if they need to leave melee range to dodge something, it gives them a sequence somewhat similar to Yaten -> Enpi -> Gyoten, by teleporting out, using Harpe, and then using Regress to port back to their starting point (presumably in melee range). I enjoy this type of setup on melee classes, because it doesn't feel quite as bad as simply slinging your low-damage ranged ability when you're forced out of melee range, and it specifically rewards you for intelligently using your mobility buttons in those situations.

Personally, I'd like it even better if Gyoten had both its damage and Kenki cost removed, and was turned into a charge-metered ability instead (with something like a 20s CD), so the entire sequence of Yaten -> Enpi -> Gyoten was Kenki neutral. Then tune the damage of Enpi so it's a definitive DPS loss during the normal rotation, but is worth using if you'd otherwise waste more than some fraction of a GCD (say a third to half of a GCD). That avoids it becoming rotational, or even really being used just to align GCDs. There should be some other melee GCD ability, unconnected to our combo sequence or Kenki gauge, that's close to but not quite DPS neutral (small potency loss versus the average GCD in the combo sequence, to avoid it being generally used, but so it's not really much of a loss to use it in place of the combo sequence for the purposes of GCD alignment), specifically for that purpose.

So, looking at the newest vids about Samurai changes, looks like all our potencies were nerfed HARD. Haven't looked at the other jobs yet, so I'm assuming it's the same for them. It's definitely painful to see, even if it was expected.

Also really not seeing a point to Hyosetsu. An extra button taking up your bar for a whole 10 more AoE potency seems like a had tradeoff

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

So, looking at the newest vids about Samurai changes, looks like all our potencies were nerfed HARD. Haven't looked at the other jobs yet, so I'm assuming it's the same for them. It's definitely painful to see, even if it was expected.

---

They covered physical Potencies in the last Live Letter. To quote from the Letter from the Producer LIVE Part LXVI Digest (9/30/2021):

Quote:

---

Another adjustment has been made not only to tank jobs, but all physical damage jobs in general. Thus far, FFXIV has used separate battle calculation formulas for physical and magical attacks. Between the two, magical attacks were given a higher base value to compensate for more intricate calculations, but these values will be unified in Patch 6.0. Because the base value of physical attacks will be raised to the same value of magical attacks, action potencies will become smaller. Note that this is simply due to raising the base value used in calculations, so the actual power of the actions won’t be any different from before.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

So, looking at the newest vids about Samurai changes, looks like all our potencies were nerfed HARD. Haven't looked at the other jobs yet, so I'm assuming it's the same for them. It's definitely painful to see, even if it was expected.

Also really not seeing a point to Hyosetsu. An extra button taking up your bar for a whole 10 more AoE potency seems like a had tradeoff

---

Don't worry about the potency shifts right now. A "nerf" on the tooltips doesn't necessarily mean a nerf in game with everything they were doing behind the scenes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beddict

They covered physical Potencies in the last Live Letter. To quote from the Letter from the Producer LIVE Part LXVI Digest (9/30/2021):

---

Ah, yes... I remember that now. Thanks for the reminder!

I like most of the SAM changes, but there's a couple things of note:

1. The devs are continuing their long-standing tradition of bloating ability bars with AoE and single target exclusive versions of low-use skills (Shoha vs Shoha 2). I don't like needless bloat especially when you add single target exclusive things of aoe/ST hybrid abilities and so forth.
2. They're bloating the AoE rotation with another GCD, because they wanted to add a third bar. This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for abilities like Shoha vs Shoha 2 and every identical analogue.
3. Tsubame-Gaeshi will still cancel if you accidentally use another GCD, at least the charge system means it won't drift if you mess up. This is also problematic if you need to shoha between a Midare and Tsubame because it tends to clip due to ping and such.
4. The most technical class in the game by raw keyboard button presses and systems to manage just got more technical due to more buttons to press.

That's really it. The class will have about 35 or 36 actual hotbar buttons, a lot of which will be exclusively AoE filler bloat, and the class has long since passed the point of being pretty bloated. I consider most hotbars bloated at about 30, which lines up with complaints about button bloat back in Heavensward. The class didn't need much aside from fixing the bloat and dropping the skill floor on Tsubame-Gaeshi, while it wasn't quite dropped, it was at least made more tolerant to drift, so it's really just a lot of bloat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taranok

I like most of the SAM changes, but there's a couple things of note:

1. The devs are continuing their long-standing tradition of bloating ability bars with AoE and single target exclusive versions of low-use skills (Shoha vs Shoha 2). I don't like needless bloat especially when you add single target exclusive things of aoe/ST hybrid abilities and so forth.
2. They're bloating the AoE rotation with another GCD, because they wanted to add a third bar. This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for abilities like Shoha vs Shoha 2 and every identical analogue.
3. Tsubame-Gaeshi will still cancel if you accidentally use another GCD, at least the charge system means it won't drift if you mess up. This is also problematic if you need to shoha between a Midare and Tsubame because it tends to clip due to ping and such.
4. The most technical class in the game by raw keyboard button presses and systems to manage just got more technical due to more buttons to press.

That's really it. The class will have about 35 or 36 actual hotbar buttons, a lot of which will be exclusively AoE filler bloat, and the class has long since passed the point of being pretty bloated. I consider most hotbars bloated at about 30, which lines up with complaints about button bloat back in Heavensward. The class didn't need much aside from fixing the bloat and dropping the skill floor on Tsubame-Gaeshi, while it wasn't quite dropped, it was at least made more tolerant to drift, so it's really just a lot of bloat.

---

I like the bloat personally, but I mainly quoted this to say that Tsubame won't grant meditation stacks anymore so the worry about shoha clipping won't apply.

As a controller user this is the first job where I might actually use R1 to switch to an AOE version of my main bar…

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taranok

Tsubame-Gaeshi will still cancel if you accidentally use another GCD, at least the charge system means it won't drift if you mess up. This is also problematic if you need to shoha between a Midare and Tsubame because it tends to clip due to ping and such.

---

It's worth pointing out that Tsubame-gaeshi will no longer generate Meditation stacks in Endwalker, so you won't ever need to use Shoha between Iaijutsu and Tsubame-gaeshi. Of course, there may still be times that you want to use Shoha (or some other oGCD) in this way.

Hyosetsu is a bit of a weird button, really. Only 10 potency higher and no extra Kenki gain, but I'll take the extra damage in trash pulls, might even offset the loss from Guren having falloff damage. Yes, losing Meditation stacks on Tsubame and Ikishoten being moved to a 120s cooldown will affect our oGCD usage, but the tradeoff is that Ikishoten will give us access to a total of 2400 potency on the GCD on top of having an extra charge of Tsubame. Meikyo prepull looks likely. I'm sad to see Seigan go but Merciful Eyes was such a nothing button this expansion that I took it off my hotbar, so I definitely won't miss it. Anyone concerned that the new Third Eye effect will encourage people to stand in damage is kinda late to the party, that's been a thing for a while by now.

As for Enpi... I think it's still going to have use cases outside of "being in melee range is going to kill me right now." It's been an extremely useful button for me through this expansion, either as my main filler when my UCoB gearset had me going so fast I needed 4 gcds of filler, or as a backup option when I was on a 2 gcd filler gearset and had to drop a gcd. Shoha II is... okay, I think? We kinda needed a Meditation spender for aoe anyway, and I'll just put it where Seigan used to go... after making sure I have somewhere to keep the Seigan icon. RIP button that rewarded me for standing in E7S tankbuster with extra damage during the opener, you were too good for this world.

It's funny that you mention Enpi. At Media Tour potencies, Yaten + Enpi is apparently higher potency per GCD than Sen combos > Midare.

Now, I can't imagine that doesn't get changed before release, but you never know lol.

There's no "apparently" about it, it is higher potency per gcd than Sen combos > Midare. Which, okay, fair, it's limited to having the Kenki for Yaten as well as Yaten's cooldown, but is still pretty weird. Just makes Yatenpi our go-to filler, imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

It's worth pointing out that Tsubame-gaeshi will no longer generate Meditation stacks in Endwalker, so you won't ever need to use Shoha between Iaijutsu and Tsubame-gaeshi. Of course, there may still be times that you want to use Shoha (or some other oGCD) in this way.

---

I didn't notice that, that's neat. Now it just needs to not break on executing another GCD and it will basically be fixed between charges and such.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naizakane

Hyosetsu is a bit of a weird button, really...

Shoha II is... okay, I think?...

---

Honestly, and I'm not a SAM main so take this with a grain of salt, Hyosetsu is such a bad ability that I'm probably not going to put it on my bars. Same with Shoha 2. I might even consider pulling Guren off but at least it has a use in level 70 dungeons. Samurai is such a heavily skill bloated class that the devs choosing to make the class actively worse will be met with me actively protesting the abilities that bloat out the single target rotation.

I really don't care about 10 extra potency and a 1-2 1-3 2-3 1-3 aoe combo rotation isn't going to cause me to bloat my bars more. I'll take the fractional loss to AoE DPS rotations.

I am seriously sick and tired of the devs taking perfectly fine ST/AoE skills like Guren, or Foul, and adding an extra button to split it from a ST-exclusive or AoE/ST hybrid button into a dedicated ST and dedicated AoE button. Nothing exemplifies the problem of skill bloat like a button you'd only press once every 20+ seconds while not making a choice but both being mutually exclusive.

Or, to put it another way, the devs when looking at RDM went: "Let's make RDM's ST combo also do aoe damage." They didn't contribute to bloat on the class, and it functions just fine in both ST and AoE. Samurai is not made better for having more button bloat, especially when in the overwhelming majority of situations, including raid situations, that bloat is a meaningless waste of hotbar space.

HW had a major amount of backlash due to having classes at or above 30 buttons per class. That's including all class skills, job skills, and cross-role skills which were limited to 5, as well as sprint + LB. I don't know why, but the devs seem hell bent on repeating this mistake, so showing them that it's a mistake by not even using it except in something like an ultimate fight that actually demands it would go a long way towards fixing the problem of unnecessary skill bloat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

It's funny that you mention Enpi. At Media Tour potencies, Yaten + Enpi is apparently higher potency per GCD than Sen combos > Midare.

Now, I can't imagine that doesn't get changed before release, but you never know lol.

---

Is this accounting for potency-value-in-Kenki not generated over the Enpi GCD (and, of course, the bonus of Kaiten (Midare) potency-per-Kenki over Shinten and Iaijutsu's contribution to Shoha potency)?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kahnom

But that would be weird as hell, don't you think ?
No one's gonna do that in extreme or savage but dungeons ? Maybe.

---

There's a saying I recently heard that I think applies: "If it looks stupid, but it works, it's not stupid."

True optimization goes beyond class, it involves working with the party to figure out how to squeeze the most damage out of every possible avenue. It's not unheard of for a Dark Knight to TBN a dps who pulls even today honestly, just because the lower Def value helps break the barrier and give the drk their free Edge. Add onto that the Samurai getting something out of it too? You might see Dark Knights and Samurai getting along famously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taranok

HW had a major amount of backlash due to having classes at or above 30 buttons per class. That's including all class skills, job skills, and cross-role skills which were limited to 5, as well as sprint + LB. I don't know why, but the devs seem hell bent on repeating this mistake, so showing them that it's a mistake by not even using it except in something like an ultimate fight that actually demands it would go a long way towards fixing the problem of unnecessary skill bloat.

---

It's cool and good that some jobs have a ton of buttons because I like the jobs that have a ton of buttons. It's part of why I main samurai. It's also why even though they are condensing the gnashing fang combo on gnb, I'm still going to leave it as 3 different buttons on my hot bar, because that feels more fun to me.

That said, I do agree with you that I am extremely tired of "new" abilities that are just aoe or st versions of pre-existing skills. It's lazy, and even as someone that likes button bloat, I find this kind of bloat to be tedious. They never should have made kyuten, Senei or shoha 2. Or Hyosetsu for that matter but it's uniquely bad on it's own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

There's a saying I recently heard that I think applies: "If it looks stupid, but it works, it's not stupid."

True optimization goes beyond class, it involves working with the party to figure out how to squeeze the most damage out of every possible avenue. It's not unheard of for a Dark Knight to TBN a dps who pulls even today honestly, just because the lower Def value helps break the barrier and give the drk their free Edge. Add onto that the Samurai getting something out of it too? You might see Dark Knights and Samurai getting along famously.

---

In paper, yes.
But in practice, It's not gonna work with PUG, with people who never done it before, might work with static but who knows.
Still looks stupid nonetheless.