Petition: Remove EX Trials from Mentor Roulette

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Telling sprouts to use PF and/or find a community catered to their needs is mentoring. That's how harder or unpopular content is done in NA and EU.
Mentors are here to help and teach how they see fit, not bend over backwards to carry the chainpulling GLD or the curebot who never opens the chat in Ramuh EX.

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Considering that the PF is indeed used to recruit for Extremes the most at least on the NA side of things (no idea what it's like elsewhere)...yeah, it is wonderful advice. Whatever the conditions (synced, unsynced, min item level, etc) the groups will usually fill if one is patient enough. Some things will be slower to fill than others, but it beats wasting their time and the time of 7 other people by trying to queue for these things. In the time it takes to queue up, given the wait time could be at LEAST an hour...they could have partially or completely filled their PF group and have been inside learning already.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Considering that the PF is indeed used to recruit for Extremes the most at least on the NA side of things (no idea what it's like elsewhere)...yeah, it is wonderful advice. Whatever the conditions (synced, unsynced, min item level, etc) the groups will usually fill if one is patient enough. Some things will be slower to fill than others, but it beats wasting their time and the time of 7 other people by trying to queue for these things. In the time it takes to queue up, given the wait time could be at LEAST an hour...they could have partially or completely filled their PF group and have been inside learning already.

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I typically tend to agree with most posts you have on here but have to disagree this time..

Generally when a queue pops for a synced EX from Duty finder it's a majority of the time 6-7 players who have queued for it directly with 1-2 mentors being tossed into thr fight from mentor roulette.. so it would actually be the mentor wasting the time of the other players who waited in queue for the fight to start by leaving, telling them to do PF..

Also why should those players leave an instance that they just got into with who knows how long they already sat in queue for.. only to be told to leave the fight and wait for a PF that most likely won't actually fill up.. idk about your server but on mine anything that's not a unsycned mount farm or a ShB ex fight never get players to join..

An FC member of mine as example sat for 3hrs in PF trying to do Coils of bahamut synced no one ever joined the group.. he eventually gave up since its not in any roulette..

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

I typically tend to agree with most posts you have on here but have to disagree this time..

Generally when a queue pops for a synced EX from Duty finder it's a majority of the time 6-7 players who have queued for it directly with 1-2 mentors being tossed into thr fight from mentor roulette.. so it would actually be the mentor wasting the time of the other players who waited in queue for the fight to start by leaving, telling them to do PF..

Also why should those players leave an instance that they just got into with who knows how long they already sat in queue for.. only to be told to leave the fight and wait for a PF that most likely won't actually fill up.. idk about your server but on mine anything that's not a unsycned mount farm or a ShB ex fight never get players to join..

An FC member of mine as example sat for 3hrs in PF trying to do Coils of bahamut synced no one ever joined the group.. he eventually gave up since its not in any roulette..

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To be fair, I never agreed with people leaving here, though I understand why people do. The advice in general is solid regardless and it doesn't need to be given by someone bowing out, but could be used for future reference. The PF is a wonderful tool. Time of day is also very important when using the PF. I find it hard to believe that your FC mate sat for so long and had no one join unless it is was during your server's off time, which is basically early morning/very late night hours. Running instances synced is all the rage lately.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Except we're not teaching them mechanics.
We're trying to go against the conditioning they've received from day 1 since starting the game that it doesn't matter what they do as long as they're pressing buttons while at the same time trying to get them to do mechanics.
This is what we're dealing with: If not worse

With that said Is there really such a need for such vitriol against mentors? Are you even a mentor? Some people just aren't ready for extreme and it has nothing to do with mentors.
I joined a 40 minutes in progress Leviathan EX just yesterday and we ran out the clock.
Not even 20% echo can help those people.
Sure you can clear most of them save Ramuh, The Great Hunt Ex(sometimes), and Sephirot but why are people so upset that some people just A. Aren't worth helping, B. Don't want help, or C. Aren't ready for the help being offered?

These people have never been challenged at all leading up the time they put themselves into the queue, they have next to no raid awareness, and don't even understand how to dps an add that appears infront of them unless specifically told and reminded to do so. If left to their own devices they would hit Ifrit while he was invincible until they wiped multiple times.

You can't help people who don't want to be helped, it goes both ways.

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Going ignore the clip as it's been discussed to death already and is not indictictive of actual spouts.. but people who make drama to get views..

Yes there is a need to call out bad mentors.. if your only there for the mount and the burger King crown then your not ment to be a mentor.. if you don't have the time to teach the players to fail an instance then you shouldn't be a mentor.. mentor are people too.. they can fail an fight but the very least they should do is stay and try to clear with the people who queued for the duty..

You obviously didn't read the entire thread I have combat mentored but currently don't have the comends..

Also see my above comment about how a mentor leaving a duty is actually hurting the 6-7 other players who chose to be there.. because 99% of the time you only get 1 or 2 mentors to help fill the fight

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

Going ignore the clip as it's been discussed to death already and is not indictictive of actual spouts.. but people who make drama to get views..

Yes there is a need to call out bad mentors.. if your only there for the mount and the burger King crown then your not ment to be a mentor.. if you don't have the time to teach the players to fail an instance then you shouldn't be a mentor.. mentor are people too.. they can fail an fight but the very least they should do is stay and try to clear with the people who queued for the duty..

You obviously didn't read the entire thread I have combat mentored but currently don't have the comends..

Also see my above comment about how a mentor leaving a duty is actually hurting the 6-7 other players who chose to be there.. because 99% of the time you only get 1 or 2 mentors to help fill the fight

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The clip is indicative of how inexperienced players simply have no awareness outside of their hotbar which is relevant to all discussion in relation to teaching people in this game.
How are people supposed to teach anyone anything when you can't even see what's in front of you?

Where did I say mentors leaving was a good thing? Where did I say you shouldn't call out bad mentors?
I just said there's no need to blanketly shame mentors who tell people to use PF. Mentors who tell people to use PF aren't bad mentors.
Mentors should stay for as long as realistically possible, at their own discretion. If they choose to leave their punishment is leaver's queue and it ends there.
If you think that punishment is too light then that's something to talk about on its own.

On the topic of who is deserving of mentor it would be right to bring up mentor is optional content as are all extremes.
If you are either unwilling or unable to communicate with your party with anything other than emotes then you should not be in any content above normal, especially when you're new.

Learning is a two way street and if you're unwilling to even meet us half way then don't be surprised when people leave.
This isn't school, we're not being paid to teach you, we're being compensated for completing the run and if you're unwilling to learn then we're not being compensated at all and if I'm not being compensated why should I teach someone who doesn't want to learn?
They can learn to fail on their own time, my being there won't change anything.
More often than not sprouts willing to learn will leave on their own accord from the soul crushing embarrassment of dying to every single mechanic back to back. It's the chainpullers that stay.

This topic has been discussed to death and I've stated my position on this matter over and over, so this time, I just have a question for those who say mentors are required to teach people extreme fights and if you're not willing, then you're not worthy of being a mentor: Where did this consensus come from? Was it clearly stated anywhere that this was part of a mentor's job? And if you give me the stale "mentors are expected to help/support" argument, I'd counter it by saying define "help/support" in a universal way. We don't all view things the same way, so isn't it unfair of people to consider their view the only one in existence and the only one that is correct/valid?

I'm a mentor (though I hide my crown due to the bad rep), and I really enjoy/like helping other people (new or not) by answering questions, helping with mount farms, or clearing an instance where I don't spend my time banging my head against a wall. I don't like having to do ex fights in DF because they're too tedious, especially when people don't read chat or when there are just too many things to explain and even then the explanation via text won't be that clear. I'd be more than happy, however, to do those instances if people came prepared and we worked together toward a clear. Does this mean I'm not worthy of being a mentor despite how much I've helped people during my mentoring career? I think saying such a statement is just too unfair and narrow-minded. And I bet most people who say such a thing have never been a mentor and tried those fights in DF. It's simply torture most of the time.

We can discuss what mentors should or shouldn't do till we are blue in the face. I personally am of the opinion that every roulette is a bribe for you to do content to help new players clear it, and you should be willing to help carry a team that lags behind you in order to earn your bonus XP and tomestones. So through that lens, tough cookies to Mentors.

But that is the wrong way to look at it, its too abstract and philosophical and deliberately removes the reality of the situation and the effects it causes. Lets look at it from another angle:

Is having a mentor enter in on an extremes actually an efficient way to get mentorship for clearing that content? Will it lead to a better, smoother experience for that new player?

I would say almost certainly not. There is value in having mentors who know the fight and want to teach it in it, but the reality is that extreme content is set up in a way that mentorship probably requires a pre-existing relationship between the mentor and group (AKA PF), and a mentor who actually knows extremes and how to teach them and is ready for one.

Regardless of if you feel mentors SHOULD be able to teach extremes in a DF context, lets be super blunt: They demonstrably can't do it, and it makes the game worse for the people receiving mentorship in this context to get mentors not ready for the content, and probably actually does a lot of 'invisible harm' to the community because it causes players to not want to do extremes in the future if they have a terrible experience with one in PF.

By all means, tie in mentor rewards with some sort of 'Extreme Mentorship' roulette (maybe make a new Astrope variant), or hell add in a 'request mentor' feature for PF that allows a mentor to hop in and get mentor rewards for PF based synced clears with strangers, which allows mentors to both establish a pre-existing relationship with a group that WANTS mentorship and lets them understand what content they are assisting with.

But removing extremes from mentor roulette is such an obvious 'everybody wins' scenario because it isn't actually serving anyone at the current moment. Demanding mentors to be forced into extremes when it so obviously isn't helping anyone (unlike say... players getting 'forced into' hard leveling duties like AV or whatever, which DOES help the people they join in most cases) isn't actually noble, its almost sadistic: you just want people to suffer because you don't think a small fraction of that party doesn't 'deserve' something, rather than because it actually makes the game better or more engaging.

I'm sure there are a lot of mentors who would love EX removed, as then they get a better chance at a quick guildhest or whatever for their mount, and don't 'need' to take a leaver penalty, or ask to get kicked when they get extremes.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I'm sure there are a lot of mentors who would love EX removed, as then they get a better chance at a quick guildhest or whatever for their mount, and don't 'need' to take a leaver penalty, or ask to get kicked when they get extremes.

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I'm sorry but what's so wrong with this? I never understood the stance of "mentors must suffer to get the mount." Mentors in different DF content are helpful to have even if the instance isn't an extreme fight. They fill in the queues, do content at a decent level (hopefully), can give advice, and can answer questions or explain simple mechanics when people get stuck on them. Why is it that all this doesn't seem to have any value to people?

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Originally Posted by Eien713

I'm sorry but what's so wrong with this? I never understood the stance of "mentors must suffer to get the mount." Mentors in different DF content are helpful to have even if the instance isn't an extreme fight. They fill in the queues, do content at a decent level (hopefully), can give advice, and can answer questions or explain simple mechanics when people get stuck on them. Why is it that all this doesn't seem to have any value to people?

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The core problem is that many "mentors" don't actually care about mentoring, and would rather have quick and easy content on their 'journey' to the mount. The less actual mentoring the better. The mount should NOT be a reward, nor should there be a crown, AT THE VERY LEAST. Really the mentor system should just be removed altogether, but I digress.

Getting an Extreme in the "mentor" roulette should be about helping players like any other prog run, a "mentor" may not necessarily get their clear towards their mount, but at least they were there to help aid players - which should be expected as Extremes are a part of the mentor roulette. It shouldn't be seen as a hindrance, but part of what they signed up for. Players have to check a box when becoming a mentor that states what being a mentor should be, if a player cannot be expected to do that, perhaps they shouldn't be or become a mentor.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

The core problem is that many "mentors" don't actually care about mentoring, and would rather have quick and easy content on their 'journey' to the mount. The less actual mentoring the better. The mount should NOT be a reward, nor should there be a crown, AT THE VERY LEAST. Really the mentor system should just be removed altogether, but I digress.

Getting an Extreme in the "mentor" roulette should be about helping players like any other prog run, a "mentor" may not necessarily get their clear towards their mount, but at least they were there to help aid players - which should be expected as Extremes are a part of the mentor roulette. It shouldn't be seen as a hindrance, but part of what they signed up for. Players have to check a box when becoming a mentor that states what being a mentor should be, if a player cannot be expected to do that, perhaps they shouldn't be or become a mentor.

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But the thing is a mentor's "job" relies so heavily on the people they get teamed up with. As a mentor, I don't see why I'd sign up for a carry, which (let's face it) is what most people signing up for extreme fights in DF expect. I sign up for helping/supporting people, which implies I won't be the one doing all the work in the instance. We all have to bring something to the table. For new people, this can either mean doing their research beforehand or having the minimum level required to get the hang of things after explanations and seeing things a few times. In DF, this is not the case in at least 75% of the ex trials runs.

I honestly believe the devs didn't foresee what including the extreme trials in mentor roulette would result in. The devs are from Japan. In Japan, people try their best not to inconvenience others. I'd suppose this means that the newbies queuing for ex trials would've at least done some research or will try really hard to not mess up way more than necessary. In this case, mentors helping them out wouldn't result in the poor mentors banging their heads on their desks. So to me, saying that the ex fights were included because it's part of a mentor's job to teach these fights is a bit of a flawed argument.

If a mentor queues for mentor roulette, they should expect that they will get extremes from time to time. If a mentor doesn't want that, they don't have to queue for it! A mentor can still "mentor" via the other roulettes in DF! The actual rewards for the mentor roulette clear itself aren't that great anyway, according to some.

How would "mentors" feel about the compromise of extremes being removed, but Astrope also being removed as a mentor reward? I'd think that working toward a substantial reward like that, sometimes requires having to help substantially.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

If a mentor queues for mentor roulette, they should expect that they will get extremes from time to time. If a mentor doesn't want that, they don't have to queue for it! A mentor can still "mentor" via the other roulettes in DF! The actual rewards for the mentor roulette clear itself aren't that great anyway, according to some.

How would "mentors" feel about the compromise of extremes being removed, but Astrope also being removed as a mentor reward? I'd think that working toward a substantial reward like that, sometimes requires having to help substantially.

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What's so substantial about the mount?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

If a mentor queues for mentor roulette, they should expect that they will get extremes from time to time. If a mentor doesn't want that, they don't have to queue for it! A mentor can still "mentor" via the other roulettes in DF! The actual rewards for the mentor roulette clear itself aren't that great anyway, according to some.

How would "mentors" feel about the compromise of extremes being removed, but Astrope also being removed as a mentor reward? I'd think that working toward a substantial reward like that, sometimes requires having to help substantially.

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If that's what it takes, remove it. This has never been about rewards.

Allow me to share my thoughts. I finished my long grind for the mount a few months ago. And from time to time, I still wanna do the Mentor Roulette to help others. However, before pressing join, a voice in the back of my mind tells me this: Do you really wanna find yourself stuck in an extreme trial and waste your time when you can spend that time helping more/other people in PF?

The answer is: Not really.

And thus I don't sign up for the roulette.

Sometimes I feel like queuing for Mentor Roulette, but I don't have the time to spend 1 hour in an ex trial (maybe it's almost time for dinner/lunch, etc.). Sometimes I do feel like helping with an extreme trial when I have the time and patience for it (though I'll admit those instances are rare, mainly due to my knowing how those fights usually go). Forcing mentors into those trials when they might not have the time or patience or if they're having a bad day or had a bad run just before getting tagged in the ex fight is only bound to backfire. Give people the choice. Besides, from what I noticed, other than the clueless newbies queuing for ARR and some HW ex trials, I don't recall ever getting other ex trials in the roulette (the SB ones). To me this indicates that after actually going through the ordeal in DF or being told about PF, people actually realize that ex trials aren't for DF.

You have to clear each extreme to even unlock mentor roulette. People aren't saying you don't have a right to drop out of a group that doesn't want to learn. That you shouldn't drop out the instant you can after you found out that you got something you don't want to do. Also just because some don't want a giant non mog shop two seater horned Pegasus doesn't mean other don't want it.

EX trials most likely won't be removed due to NA/EU having a different mind set/culture than the one that's found in the JP as we've gone and bread the mindset of individualism. Not sure when that started as it wasn't that way before the PF was put into the game. Though maybe it was there and not just noticed until enough people left for the raid servers. Course that is another dead horse to beat into paste some more for a different thread. I mean it's been a month, right?

Dunno, usually dont have much of an issue clearing on mentor roulette, healer can certainly save a run. Worst case it may take a few wipes but echo generally pushes enough to clear, just got to keep folks alive or heal lb3 if needed.

Echo usually helps, but it takes most of the timer to clear these in DF. Not a bad thing, but just not ideal and respectful of people's time. My problem with extreme's in mentor roulette is there are usually undergeared users in there which the echo can only help so much. However that is what being a mentor is, you have to help people no matter what. No matter the instance.

I don't agree that all ex trials should be removed, but fights like nidhogg ex shouldn't be in the rotation it's always a timer expire fight no matter how you explain it when you have to explain both the fight and 7 players how to do their lvl 60 rotation

fights like Garuda are very easy to explain and have no issue being on mentor
I also think trying to queue for ex trials should automatically just open PF and mentors that want the mount could join those PFs to clear for bonus points towards the mount if cleared synced

with my suggestion here people that focus on ex trials as a mentor will be more useful than a mentor that farms dungeons and get rewarded properly for clearing an ex trial instead of 1 point

but it's very difficult to make any kind of suggestion on this forum because the moment you make one sad people will come with their 2k+ post count and make useless hot takes without reading your thread and copy paste the same reply they do on every thread about the same topic

edit: just look at the post below mine

I think they should also add all savages. Everything that makes the life of these burgerking crown wearing players more difficult.

Or make it that way that mentor roulette groups mentors up with only other mentors. That way we could bring this awful scourge to an end.

I don't mind seeing EX fights in Mentor roulette. Last 2 weeks I've seen a bunch of ARR and HW EXs I haven't seen in years and get to remember the fights with a bunch of players new to it. I have yet to see one we haven't cleared within the timer. We had a Sophia run completed at the last minute, and jokes were thrown around about how we all needed to go on diets if we're screwing up a scale that easily.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

I think they should also add all savages. Everything that makes the life of these burgerking crown wearing players more difficult.

Or make it that way that mentor roulette groups mentors up with only other mentors. That way we could bring this awful scourge to an end.

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I'm all for that, it would just make it even more obvious some players aren't ready for certain content. It's already not great in pf, imagine the memes that could be had in df.

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Originally Posted by Eien713

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It's simple really, if a mentor is unwilling to potentially have to assist players in extreme content, they can just not queue for the mentor roulette. If they are so interested in helping other players, they can manually select duties, or do the other roulettes in the duty finder. As the Astrope is supposedly meaningless, no mentor should care that they cannot work towards it specifically. At least they are there helping players!

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

It's simple really, if a mentor is unwilling to potentially have to assist players in extreme content, they can just not queue for the mentor roulette. If they are so interested in helping other players, they can manually select duties, or do the other roulettes in the duty finder. As the Astrope is supposedly meaningless, no mentor should care that they cannot work towards it specifically. At least they are there helping players!

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Again, define "helping."

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Originally Posted by Eien713

Again, define "helping."

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Providing gameplay advice for new adventurers and other players, being an exemplar for player etiquette.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Providing gameplay advice for new adventurers and other players, being an exemplar for player etiquette.

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And why is this only limited to ex trials? Mentors can do this all the time in any other instance and even in the open world.

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Originally Posted by Eien713

And why is this only limited to ex trials? Mentors can do this all the time in any other instance and even in the open world.

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When queueing for 'Duty Roulette: Mentor' mentor status is automatically turned on, it's kind of expected for a player to mentor in it. I also stated, that a mentor can 'mentor' outside of this specific roulette. If a "mentor" doesn't want to potentially have to 'mentor' extremes they don't have to queue for it, simple as that.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

When queueing for 'Duty Roulette: Mentor' mentor status is automatically turned on, it's kind of expected for a player to mentor in it. I also stated, that a mentor can 'mentor' outside of this specific roulette. If a "mentor" doesn't want to potentially have to 'mentor' extremes they don't have to queue for it, simple as that.

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Lemme tell you a little story. Yesterday, I joined a PF of people wanting to clear Garuda Ex. We eventually got a party with everyone agreeing to do the trial synced. Since we were all mentally prepared to do this and the newbies had done their homework, it was way easier to get the clear by explaining a few things here and there. Since we did great with Garuda (cleared it on first pull), we decided to do Titan next. A few hiccups here and there but we managed to clear. Ifrit was next and it was a bit more challenging than the other two. But with a few explanations here and there, some strategizing, and a bit of practice, we managed to clear. Those 3 fights were so fun to do. We were all doing our best and working together with no one slacking off or expecting a carry. Granted, I went as a healer to be able to save the runs as much as possible since I'm very familiar with those fights, but everyone else also did great.

Bottom line, Ex trials are better done with a group that's not forced to do them but rather chose to.

Mentoring in Ex fights doesn't mean to do all the work. I remember a discussion you were part of in the Tales from the Duty Finder thread. It was about tanks who don't even have the reflex to turn on their tank stance (even when aggro is clearly all over the place). This is the average experience in Mentor Roulette when it comes to Ex fights. People expect the fights to be a faceroll. You can't possibly tell me it's a mentor's job to put up with this. Besides, the logic of "You don't want to get an Ex trial? Don't queue for Mentor Roulette" is just so bad/flawed and short-sighted. Mentors in different other content can be such an asset if only by filling up the queues for older content, yet by this logic, we lose this advantage because of something like Ex trials. Throwing away a whole batch of good fruit because of 1 rotten fruit (Ex trials) doesn't sound too smart to me.

Dunno about ya'll, but when I choose to do Mentor Roulette, I do it with the full expectance of having to teach every EX fight out there or, worst case: I learn together with the sprouts and we try things. I fail to see the problem - we as mentors are not expected to know every fight by heart, but instead are expected to be role models of player etiquette while dispensing occasional advice.

We are also given full knowledge of the duty pool due to its' unlocking requirements, so if you don't like the gamble to join a duty you don't like or simply unsync-freeloaded for a kill and feel embarassed when you are the one who ends up knowing nothing (you shouldnt be embarassed btw), then just maybe Duty Roulette: Mentor isn't for you.

The roulette allows newbies to enter EX duties without having to start dedicated PF parties by polling from DR: Mentor participants, literally works as intended.

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Originally Posted by Eien713

Besides, the logic of "You don't want to get an Ex trial? Don't queue for Mentor Roulette" is just so bad/flawed and short-sighted. Mentors in different other content can be such an asset if only by filling up the queues for older content, yet by this logic, we lose this advantage because of something like Ex trials. Throwing away a whole batch of good fruit because of 1 rotten fruit (Ex trials) doesn't sound too smart to me.

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Mentor Roulette without containg EXtrials is basically all previously existing roulettes stacked under a trenchcoat and serves no purpose other than to basically be Duty Roulette: All previous Roulettes. EX trials literally set it apart from the other roulettes.

Calling EX trials the rotten fruit in a batch sounds like you are feeling entitled to getting easy duties all the time rather than putting up with it, but that's technically none of my business, so you do you.

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Originally Posted by Eien713

Mentoring in Ex fights doesn't mean to do all the work. I remember a discussion you were part of in the Tales from the Duty Finder thread. It was about tanks who don't even have the reflex to turn on their tank stance (even when aggro is clearly all over the place). This is the average experience in Mentor Roulette when it comes to Ex fights. People expect the fights to be a faceroll. You can't possibly tell me it's a mentor's job to put up with this. Besides, the logic of "You don't want to get an Ex trial? Don't queue for Mentor Roulette" is just so bad/flawed and short-sighted. Mentors in different other content can be such an asset if only by filling up the queues for older content, yet by this logic, we lose this advantage because of something like Ex trials. Throwing away a whole batch of good fruit because of 1 rotten fruit (Ex trials) doesn't sound too smart to me.

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I have yet to see somebody do all the work in the EX fights you get from Mentor roulette. Simply because, and you forget, you are sync'd down and the fights have enrages, it is not possible for a single sync'd person to carry an EX run. Every run I get into everybody is trying to pull their own weight, because nobody queues up in DF for an EX expecting to get carried, you do unsync'd for that.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Mentor Roulette without containg EXtrials is basically all previously existing roulettes stacked under a trenchcoat and serves no purpose other than to basically be Duty Roulette: All previous Roulettes. EX trials literally set it apart from the other roulettes.

Calling EX trials the rotten fruit in a batch sounds like you are feeling entitled to getting easy duties all the time rather than putting up with it, but that's technically none of my business, so you do you.

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The problem is not the Ex trials themselves--it's the way those fights go in DF due to so many different reasons. And for your info, I did put up with all the Ex trials I got in Mentor Roulette and I'm actually done with the grind. Doesn't mean that didn't suck or that we shouldn't do something about them to make things better for both mentors and other players. If people were able to get their head in the game and follow instructions, you wouldn't have to spend 1 hour wiping over and over in an Ex trial (the easy ones). But what I saw in Ex fights in Mentor Roulette was people who keep dying to the same things and making the same mistakes over and over despite having things explained beforehand and/or dying/wiping to the same things over and over. The people you get in Ex trials are (most of the time) ones who don't even have a good grasp on the basics of the game, so how are they expected to tackle challenging content and within 1 hour?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I have yet to see somebody do all the work in the EX fights you get from Mentor roulette. Simply because, and you forget, you are sync'd down and the fights have enrages, it is not possible for a single sync'd person to carry an EX run. Every run I get into everybody is trying to pull their own weight, because nobody queues up in DF for an EX expecting to get carried, you do unsync'd for that.

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And that's why you fail Ex trials in DF more often than not. Because people expect the fights to be easy and a faceroll, but then when it turns out they're not and you can't be carried through them, they either leave or the party fails the duty. I'll mention one of my Mentor Roulette experiences. I believe we got Sephirot this one time. That fight is awful to explain via text because there's so much going on, so I asked people to look up a guide while we waited for members (some people had left). I was willing to explain things or answer questions if people had any after looking up a guide. There was this one person who was watching a guide after I asked, and they commented that "Holy crap! There are so many things going on in the fight." I answered that yeah, which is why a guide (preferably a video) was way better than walls of text. I asked the others again to please watch a guide and said that the fight wasn't easy, and you know what 2 or 3 of them did? They bailed. If this doesn't prove they weren't expecting to make an effort, I don't know what does. I should also mention they hadn't said a single word the whole time, so it's not like they wanted to do the fight blind and I was against it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eien713

Bottom line, Ex trials are better done with a group that's not forced to do them but rather chose to.

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This right here.. im not saying you in general but.. when it comes to mentors in EX fights.. that entire group is there bu choice except the 1 or very rarely 2 mentors who got it from the roulette.. so as you say that entire group is there by choice and the mentors who leave or say do it in PF are the ones spoiling it for the group that patiently waited in queue for this Ex trial

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I have yet to see somebody do all the work in the EX fights you get from Mentor roulette. Simply because, and you forget, you are sync'd down and the fights have enrages, it is not possible for a single sync'd person to carry an EX run. Every run I get into everybody is trying to pull their own weight, because nobody queues up in DF for an EX expecting to get carried, you do unsync'd for that.

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Me(whm) and a tank basically just carried the party to the clear in Titan EX. There was only 2 dps not knocked off and we were on final rock phase, failed so we stacked center and cure 3'd to victory.
Sure they helped dps the goals when they were still alive(if they weren't stacking them) but they weren't carrying their own weight.
It's the opposite. A majority of everyone who queues for extremes are doing that because they don't know any better that's why extremes in DF are worse than extremes in PF.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

This right here.. im not saying you in general but.. when it comes to mentors in EX fights.. that entire group is there bu choice except the 1 or very rarely 2 mentors who got it from the roulette.. so as you say that entire group is there by choice and the mentors who leave or say do it in PF are the ones spoiling it for the group that patiently waited in queue for this Ex trial

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The fact you have a problem with mentors telling people to use the superior option available to complete content regardless of whether they stay or not really shows where you stand in this discussion.
You intentionally misinterpreting what was said so it could favor your stance on the issue is honestly funny.
If you refuse to acknowledge your contrarians at least stop commenting on the topic. It's honestly surprising just how many intellectually dishonest people are here on these forums.
It's so simple to just agree to disagree but all anyone is interested in doing is typing nonsense they don't even think about before it comes out of their head.

Unpopular (among mentors) very long input here

Har Har, a bit of a prelude.
a) I am a mentor running mentor roulette (and that is the only time you will see me wearing burger king crown) daily.
b) I am running into arr ex's in my mentor roulette a lot recently. Also very much recently (like 2 months ago) I have stopped brexiting them on the entrance even if I have no experience with synched ver of them (6 years ago when I started this game, most of them were already compulsively run unsynched :P). I just say at the entrance that I am also a n00b and that I only did the instanced in ez ver, and trust the leaves to yeet me if they want a pro (never happened).

And you know what I have discovered?
a) We are so overgeared that actually, it is easy to clear most of them even if you make a few mistakes.
b) most of the mechanics are easy to dodge as they are mostly telegraphed as every other mechanic in this game. The peculiarities are kinda easy to learn by experiencing and trying different methods.
c) in the 80% of groups I joined there is at least 1 sprout who knows more or less what is supposed to be done and is very eager to play the raid leader and tell what to do and mark stuff.
d) they all specifically qued for this place which suggests they all want to learn so if you have something to say to -help- they will be more than happy to hear and listen.
e) in the last 2 months I have cleared based on my limited knowledge most of arr extremes (sans mog boi and ramuh) now all in the 60 mins span with at least 2 wipes but also patience and communication with the team :P

Obviously not all arr exes are like this nor are smooth or filled with nice leaves (my first ifrit ex mentor run I actually left because of n00b being verbally vile and me not wanting to surround myself with that) but any instance may end up as anything depending on people. And you - reader - probably will be one of them.

Also, something weighing on me, when I go into any roulette I make sure I have enough time to go to the max length of the instance. 60 mins is really not that long and mentor roulette is basically an alternative name of the 'helper roulette'. Whether it ends with success or not you are signing up to at least try to help. And yes, I do agree it is ridiculous to expect mentors to remember all specific mechanics of every single instance in the game. And if you put that kind of pressure on yourself and that is all you think you can offer as a mentor you are welcome to leave (and it should be ok). As the author of the thread mentioned she sees a mentor as capable of offering general gaming advice (hopefully above the one provided in the pop-up windows and the tournament thing available at level 15) - and I will assure you often even in exes this ends up being useful in order to clear while everything else is easy to sort out. Specific example being - my Shiva ex in prog. Very early on I have noticed (I am a main heal, I have loads of time to people watch) that we keep on dying to being cleaved, also to later mechanic where specific player is targetted for pushback (and everyone else didnt care about positioning). I did mention it after 2nd wipe. We figured it is the ot tank that keeps the pos wonky. I explained to him the importance of staying away from the rest of the group. We cleared. I consider it general gaming advice.


And btw, yes I get your point, been there had similar mind, tried to see other side of the bridge (ya know, stick it out) and found it not so bad. Plus it is not true we didn't sign up for this, like before I unlocked the burger king roulette I knew there are exes in it so if I queue I take this as a valid possibility. On top of it... if we end up yeeting all instances we are not happy with, mentor roulette will end up with only one instance - Sastasha. And that one, I absolutely am so -done-with (but no, gonna stay if I end up there lol).

To add to that, I hate the majority of 50s dunges so I stopped queuing for relevant roulette as I really don't wanna be there. You can guess what I have to suggest to resolve your issue.

I want to change this petition. I petition to change the idea we have around Mentors that they are supposed to be know-it-alls, rather than that they are supposed to lead by example, know the general game mechanics as well as basics of all jobs, they also should act accordingly (patience, compassion, knowing how to communicate). Or even better yeet the whole 3k mentor roulettes and the whole mentorship idea, give the mount for running 2 or 3 milion roulettes and call it a day. I don't need burger king crown to help ^^'.

/end of rant

I don't really feel obligated to stay for the full duration of a duty if the group isn't making tangible progress on the fight after several pulls.

A lot of people are just not ready to be running extremes, whether it be due to a lack of situational awareness, experience with their job, and/or ability to follow directions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eien713

And that's why you fail Ex trials in DF more often than not. Because people expect the fights to be easy and a faceroll, but then when it turns out they're not and you can't be carried through them, they either leave or the party fails the duty. I'll mention one of my Mentor Roulette experiences. I believe we got Sephirot this one time. That fight is awful to explain via text because there's so much going on, so I asked people to look up a guide while we waited for members (some people had left). I was willing to explain things or answer questions if people had any after looking up a guide. There was this one person who was watching a guide after I asked, and they commented that "Holy crap! There are so many things going on in the fight." I answered that yeah, which is why a guide (preferably a video) was way better than walls of text. I asked the others again to please watch a guide and said that the fight wasn't easy, and you know what 2 or 3 of them did? They bailed. If this doesn't prove they weren't expecting to make an effort, I don't know what does. I should also mention they hadn't said a single word the whole time, so it's not like they wanted to do the fight blind and I was against it.

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This is basically my exact reason I advocate for removing EX content from the DF. The average player (at least in NA) simply isn't prepared for that kind of content. It's and exercise in futility.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

The fact you have a problem with mentors telling people to use the superior option available to complete content regardless of whether they stay or not really shows where you stand in this discussion.
You intentionally misinterpreting what was said so it could favor your stance on the issue is honestly funny.
If you refuse to acknowledge your contrarians at least stop commenting on the topic. It's honestly surprising just how many intellectually dishonest people are here on these forums.
It's so simple to just agree to disagree but all anyone is interested in doing is typing nonsense they don't even think about before it comes out of their head.

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No I don't have a problem with them saying to try PF.. I have a problem with them saying that and then leaving.. or saying that and demanding they be kicked from the instance.. or saying that an going afk to not help with the fight..

The fact that you assume my problem is them just saying use PF is the issue.. because these issue is when people say that to spouts they typically don't stay to help them.. they typically don't join that PF they just told them to make.. they typically just re-queue into Mentor roulette for a guildheist or a dungeon for their easy clear..

There have been 0 dishonestly from my posts because all my comments speak from experiences from myself and others who have talked to me about the mentors they have met..

So no ill continue to comment on topics like this because it is something I'm passionate about.. because I actually want people to use the time they have to help these spouts or even normal players who are using DF for these trials.. they set their time to wait in the queue.. mentors who find themselves in those fights should of held the time for a 60-90min instance... they should think do I have the patience or time for an EX fight before they clicked join on Mentor Roulette.. if the answer is/was no.. they shouldn't have joined the queue

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This is basically my exact reason I advocate for removing EX content from the DF. The average player (at least in NA) simply isn't prepared for that kind of content. It's and exercise in futility.

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Not prepared to jump right into it through the DF but a fair number learn in practice parties well enough. Sometimes it takes longer for them to learn depending on the person, but they usually get there. Mostly. I think what makes a huge difference is that practice parties tend to be a lot more chill, even if there's more wipes than progress, while DF queues are a bit more...tense all around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

No I don't have a problem with them saying to try PF.. I have a problem with me saying that and then leaving.. or saying that and demanding they be kicked from the instance.. or saying that an going afk to not help with the fight..

The fact that you assume my problem is them just saying use PF is the issue.. because these issue is when people say that to spouts they typically don't stay to help them.. they typically don't join that PF they just told them to make.. they typically just re-queue into Mentor roulette for a guildheist or a dungeon for their easy clear..

There have been 0 dishonestly from my posts because all my comments speak from experiences from myself and others who have talked to me about the mentors they have met..

So no ill continue to comment on topics like this because it is something I'm passionate about.. because I actually want people to use the time they have to help these spouts or even normal players who are using DF for these trials.. they set their time to wait in the queue.. mentors who find themselves in those fights should of held the time for a 60-90min instance... they should think do I have the patience or time for an EX fight before they clicked join on Mentor Roulette.. if the answer is/was no.. they shouldn't have joined the queue

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I didn't assume anything.

If you don't have a problem with them just saying it then properly articulate yourself in your initial posts and it will save us both a lot of time.