Botting: Good or Evil? lol

Cheating is bad.

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Originally Posted by Dragonblanco

It's sad that you and Milkie have such poor reading comprehension and can't grasp what the idea of a gray area is. I know neither of you are stupid, but it's like this just is going right over your heads. Not sure if it's intentional just because y'all are hoping to argue, if it's because you can't handle the idea of gray areas, if you only accept certain aspects because you do it but shun the rest since you don't, or what. .

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First, incredibly rude.

Your main question was about the use of bots or botting.

Turbo buttons or macros do not equal botting. You do know the difference between macros and botting?

There is grey zone on the matter of peripherals and macros, there is not grey zone on bots.

You are arguing, rather rudely, with people who are saying botting is a flat “no”. Then you are trying to somehow justify usage of non-bot tools somehow makes a grey zone for allowing bots? Get your definitions straight.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

First, incredibly rude.

Your main question was about the use of bots or botting.

Turbo buttons or macros do not equal botting. You do know the difference between macros and botting?

There is grey zone on the matter of peripherals and macros, there is not grey zone on bots.

You are arguing, rather rudely, with people who are saying botting is a flat “no”. Then you are trying to somehow justify usage of non-bot tools somehow makes a grey zone for allowing bots? Get your definitions straight.

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Botting = n. a device or piece of software that can execute commands or perform routine tasks, as electronic searches, usually without user intervention (often used in combination): intelligent infobots; shopping bots.

Meaning using a macro that can execute commands or perform routine tasks = botting.

Other definitions of botting:
: a computer program that performs automatic repetitive tasks :
: a computer program or character (as in a game) designed to mimic the actions of a person

Yeah, sounds like macros, doesn't it?

This is what I'm trying to say, some of you are try hards in twisting things just to try to say you're correct and others not. You're either for it or against it. Should things be all 100% player time and skill or do we allow external macros/bots?

And keep in mind, when we say macros, we're not referring to the in-game macros. We're talking about macros created and done by peripherals and external programs.

Call me rude all you want, but when I have people who keep avoiding main points and who are completely arguing nonsense just to argue....

And remember, I didn't ask what your definition was. The gaming community and the world at large already has determined the meaning of these words. All you need to do is Google to ask what botting is and you'll get your answers. The dictionary, which is universal for everyone, will spell it out for you. So anyone trying to say automated macros which will non-stop do a pre-programed set of commands is not botting....what are you missing? This is why I said reading comprehension and all. I quoted where SE already spelled it out, I had specifically been mentioning in as simple means as possible what it means, and you've had access to the internet and any dictionary in the world. All you had to do is look.

But instead I have the handful of you who try saying it's not gray area just because you don't want it to be. Then you try telling me that macros and botting are different...which developers and dictionaries the world over will disagree with you on.

But maybe you need to see that elsewhere. How about someone who answered about the difference for WoW, their former Community Manager? https://twitter.com/Bashiok/status/598594151874039809

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Bashiok
@Bashiok
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May 13, 2015
Botting is defined as automation of any action, not just character movement. If a program is pressing keys for you, you've violated the ToU.

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Again, that was in reference to WoW but it's the same here. Macros pushing buttons for you = botting.

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Originally Posted by Dragonblanco

Botting = n. a device or piece of software that can execute commands or perform routine tasks, as electronic searches, usually without user intervention (often used in combination): intelligent infobots; shopping bots.

Meaning using a macro that can execute commands or perform routine tasks = botting.

Other definitions of botting:
: a computer program that performs automatic repetitive tasks :
: a computer program or character (as in a game) designed to mimic the actions of a person

Yeah, sounds like macros, doesn't it?

This is what I'm trying to say, some of you are try hards in twisting things just to try to say you're correct and others not. You're either for it or against it. Should things be all 100% player time and skill or do we allow external macros/bots?

And keep in mind, when we say macros, we're not referring to the in-game macros. We're talking about macros created and done by peripherals and external programs.

Call me rude all you want, but when I have people who keep avoiding main points and who are completely arguing nonsense just to argue....

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Macros are single use, 1 time push operations that require input to fire off. When you automate macros by having them repeat without input, it ceases to be just a macro and surprise, it’s now a bot.

You have no main point. You asked if bots are allowed. The devs (and most of the player base) have said as plain as day: no. What more could you possible want?

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Originally Posted by kaynide

First, incredibly rude.

Your main question was about the use of bots or botting.

Turbo buttons or macros do not equal botting. You do know the difference between macros and botting?

There is grey zone on the matter of peripherals and macros, there is not grey zone on bots.

You are arguing, rather rudely, with people who are saying botting is a flat “no”. Then you are trying to somehow justify usage of non-bot tools somehow makes a grey zone for allowing bots? Get your definitions straight.

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See this is why discussions like this are extremely hard to have in good faith without coming to a common ground of definitions, cause pedantic approach does lead to many common actions as boting which does technically create a grey area cause such things are allowed.

Same with advantage I do think for the sake of discussion people really should come to a agreed upon definition and what accounts for boting and what accounts for an advantage in the general sense as gaming or I guess what accounts for unauthorized and authorized forms of boting and advantage when it comes to the eyes if the devs and gaming community.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Macros are single use, 1 time push operations that require input to fire off. When you automate macros by having them repeat without input, it ceases to be just a macro and surprise, it’s now a bot.

You have no main point. You asked if bots are allowed. The devs (and most of the player base) have said as plain as day: no. What more could you possible want?

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You can make a single use sequence macro that is extremely long depending on the software in question and function one is trying to achieve.

I have not followed much but my guess it appears they are focused on a grey area that exists due to lack of enforcement of the action either willfully or not by SE.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Macros are single use, 1 time push operations that require input to fire off. When you automate macros by having them repeat without input, it ceases to be just a macro and surprise, it’s now a bot.

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Again, you're trying to differentiate and essentially strawman. And for what?

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You have no main point. You asked if bots are allowed. The devs (and most of the player base) have said as plain as day: no. What more could you possible want?

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I never asked if bots are allowed. These types of comments is why I say a lot of you need to work on your reading comprehension. Seriously, go back to all my comments and the original post. Not once did I ask if they are allowed. Want to know what I said?

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Do you think there's a place for botting or SE should get stricter? What are the pros and cons?

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Which means in all of your arguing, you didn't know how to read and answer. What yours would be is "I think SE should get stricter. Botting seems bad because "x" and I don't see any pros (or the pros to botting are "y"). Yet somehow it couldn't appeal to you to actually read what people asked and then just answer. Instead you came in with these random arguments and comments.

Oh, and further read that initial post:

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So you tell me, what do you like and/or hate about the idea of botting in the game? If they suddenly changed their stance to permit it, would you bot yourself?

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Ooh, I said "IF THEY SUDDENLY CHANGED THEIR STANCE TO PERMIT IT."

That means I'm telling you IT IS NOT ALLOWED by TOS. So again, I didn't ask if it's allowed. ffs....

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Macros are single use, 1 time push operations that require input to fire off. When you automate macros by having them repeat without input, it ceases to be just a macro and surprise, it’s now a bot.

You have no main point. You asked if bots are allowed. The devs (and most of the player base) have said as plain as day: no. What more could you possible want?

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macro noun
plural macros
Definition of macro (Entry 2 of 3)
: a single computer instruction that stands for a sequence of operations


It doesn't matter if it's one button push to do a whole sequence of events, it's still botting. It's automation that does not exist in the game as created by the developers; thus it is not allowed. There are tons of different types of botting, but botting is botting. It's using automation to perform tasks you're too lazy to do yourself or don't have the time to do. They can serve some very good purposes and make tasks much faster and efficient to do, which is part of why I was asking if we thought that bots should belong in the game or if developers should continue to forbid such actions?

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

People are always missing the point when it comes to bots. Okay, so people bot for housing. People bot for the marketboard. That's all crappy and we should get rid of it, but it's not the main issue.

The main issue is that there is software available that completely automates gameplay for every class. Nobody ever talks about it, but it's there and you really never know if someone is actually playing their own class or not. I guess you know if they're really bad, but for the good players, who knows.

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They are good enough to be mostly undetectable and get rank 1 on fflogs on easier jobs like BRD/MCH.

Maybe this will help define things for you. "botting" as you defined in your original post, is "absentee play", so that the player can be at work, play, spend time with family etc. In those cases, I would think they should log off and spend time with real life people, but we seem to have a differing opinion on that. They are not referring to "macros" which have a limited line amount, if you program a macro button on your keyboard for instance to run eternally, that is absentee play. if you have a macro set up that you have to press or click for it to continue every cycle, that is not absentee play.

■Behaviour that disrupts the game balance
Square Enix strictly prohibits the use of third-party programs or tools – including programs and tools that permit automated or “absentee” play – in Final Fantasy XIV. Accordingly, the following activities are prohibited:

- Modifying, analysing, integrating, and/or reverse engineering game software or data.
- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game.
- Exploiting Square Enix programming bugs or glitches.
- Automating gameplay processes.

The Game Master (GM) may speak to players to investigate and confirm “absentee” play, and if the player continues with this behaviour, contrary to the GM's instructions, this will be treated as “absentee” play and subject to penalties. The following behaviour is also prohibited.

since you want examples of pros and cons:
pros, none, its cheating.

cons: many, but to bring up a few for you
cheaper prices on material, seem like a good deal, but the only buyers for the cheap materials will be the people using absentee play, because they are the only people selling anything
- reason, bots change their pricing every 1--15 minutes to maintain the lowest price so they are the only ones selling gear
- a player can replicate this, but to sell, they need to be active on the market board and change prices, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, it is a job at that point
excess amount of materials on market
- yes, the nodes do not disappear, but you only need materials if you are crafting, and since crafting can be expensive for gear and materia, see first point, if there is no reason to sell, since market/crafting absentee players can churn out many more items than a non abesentee player, why would you enter crafting?
destruction of 8 crafting classes
- need or desire to craft would become much lower as a majority of the player base would no longer see a point in it.

I mean long and short of it is you are okay with absentee play, and many of your posts and redfinition of what it is definitely point in that direction. I am not.

anyway, since your recent posts have become increasingly hostile towards people not okay with absentee playing, I am done here. have a good journey.

1) you asked several questions in what was an already longwinded post. I answered if I supported them or not. I don’t care about your question if they were suddenly allowed because it’s a dumb question.

I am not obligated to respond to some specific part of your post.

2) I gave my opinion. You can take it or leave it. I don’t know why you think it’s a debate or that I’m supposed to convince you of something.

3) again, incredibly rude. There is nothing else to discuss here. Either you are fishing to make an argument or you genuinely don’t realize how rude you are being to people. I will assume the later and wish you a good day.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Bots and myself have a contentious relationship, my first summer job as a kid was selling Gold in WoW and I used bots, bought my first car with the money I made. I know people who have used MMO RMT with bots to help bridge the gap in rent and university bills. In the end I do not think this is a simple black and white issue in the sense from the consumer, I do agree that it is against the rules, but I also do not blame people for taking their chance when it comes to breaching those rules especially when SE is fairly lax with their enforcement when someone follows certain steps.

I know many will disagree but it is not the responsibility of the players to follow the rules simply because they are the rules, in an ideal world sure that is how it works but in the real world if a party wants someone to follow rules be it the government, parents, company etc . . . They need to actively enforce said rules across the board not when it only becomes an inconvenience to them.

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If this is your world view then just wow, like WOW. Morals be damned, who cares who I **** over. Me, me , me, I , I , I. FYI, the more you bot (and I bet you do) the more resources you take from the development of the game for your "enforcement". So next time people complain about content drought just know that the GM payroll costs money and it's coming out of the same budget....

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Originally Posted by Dragonblanco

I hear you on most of your points and essentially agree. I do wish they'd change things, like housing. From what I have seen and heard, many players are griping about it and hoping for changes. Hopefully they get to it. That said, let me point back at this one section of what you mentioned. I think it's where I was discussing in my pros and cons. Some of the things really doesn't have impacts on anyone else's game experience. Like if Ruru used macros to do Ishgard Restoration crafting so they can level up their crafter. How does that help or hurt you? Does it impact you at all?

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Macros are part of the game, not a third party tool. They're part of the limited automation SE has built into the game.

You still need to be present to start synthesis on the recipe then start the macro. You're going to have to use manual input at least every 45 seconds if not more often. You're not going to be able to walk away for 2 hours and come back to a stack of finished collectables.

Someone using a third party tool to bot can walk away for that two hours.

One is allowed by the game. One isn't. Playing by the rules is what makes the game experience fair for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

Is using Razer Synapse, iCue etc etc botting then?

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Depends on if you're using the programmable functions to do things that could not be duplicated using an in-game macro.

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Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

Bots in FF14 are TAME compared to some games.

In ESO when first launched, bots could be seen FLYING IN THE AIR across maps. Moving and killing underground in plain sight. Teleporting up through 3 storey buildings. Blatant teleporting to each node to harvest.

Ugh.

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That was also happening here at the start of Shadowbringers. It took a while for SE to counter whatever they were doing so they were no longer flying in trains across the sky in various places.

Just because you perceive it to be more of a problem in other games doesn't mean it's not a problem here.

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Originally Posted by Dragonblanco

Camping the placards just is screwed up.

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So don't camp the placards. It's not how players were intended to do it. Even resorting to a bot doesn't guarantee you'll get the plot. Plenty of players have managed to get a plot despite the presence of someone using a bot or auto-click scrip.

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Originally Posted by Dragonblanco

Macros pushing buttons for you = botting.

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In-game macros are part of the game. SE controls what we can or cannot accomplish using them.

Macros that are created by using third party tools are outside of SE's control and may do things that SE does not want players to do. Therefore they are not allowed.

It shouldn't be difficult to understand that

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Originally Posted by Arrhin

If this is your world view then just wow, like WOW. Morals be damned, who cares who I **** over. Me, me , me, I , I , I. FYI, the more you bot (and I bet you do) the more resources you take from the development of the game for your "enforcement". So next time people complain about content drought just know that the GM payroll costs money and it's coming out of the same budget....

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Before anything else why should I care about what people complain about?

Secondly the reality is that is how the world works everything is a balancing act like it or not my way of thinking is not foriegn or unheard of. We all are guilty of breaking rules when it is convenient for us and we know the chances of getting caught are slim.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Macros are part of the game, not a third party tool. They're part of the limited automation SE has built into the game.

You still need to be present to start synthesis on the recipe then start the macro. You're going to have to use manual input at least every 45 seconds if not more often. You're not going to be able to walk away for 2 hours and come back to a stack of finished collectables.

Someone using a third party tool to bot can walk away for that two hours.

One is allowed by the game. One isn't. Playing by the rules is what makes the game experience fair for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

In-game macros are part of the game. SE controls what we can or cannot accomplish using them.

Macros that are created by using third party tools are outside of SE's control and may do things that SE does not want players to do. Therefore they are not allowed.

It shouldn't be difficulty to understand that

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So what you quoted me on was me responding to you when you were saying it shouldn't be allowed because it impacts other players. The example I gave was of using third party macros to do Ishgard Restoration, which many do. You create a game macro for the things, then set Razer Synapse or other programs to keep it going. It doesn't take from the economy, it doesn't really give that player a benefit over others, etc. So it was just a comparison.

That said, I already know about macros and botting. If you've read my many responses in trying to educate people, you'll see where I've fully described what they are, how they work, acknowledged what is and isn't allowed by ToS, quoted what is said to be gray areas because they can't monitor what is on our computers, and so much more. Yet, none of that was that my forum post here was supposed to be about. I didn't ask for definitions or what is allowed by SE. I asked what players personally think about botting, what the pros and cons of them are, and if they (you) would bot IF SE were to suddenly modify ToS and say all players would be allowed to use those programs?

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Originally Posted by Arrhin

If this is your world view then just wow, like WOW. Morals be damned, who cares who I **** over. Me, me , me, I , I , I.

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who is a botter bleeping over, realistically?* i have quite a few friends who use bots and literally all they use them for is to gather/craft stuff for raid like food and pots, and then they share it with the static.

The more contentious one was this girl who also liked to sell gil to random people she knew. but again, who is she ***ing over by doing that?

Bots arent inherently evil and "rules" arent inherently righteous. Also a rule is effectively meaningless is nobody enforces it.

*i know theres some hardcore rmt botters that probably make a lot of money and are involved in stuff like tax evasion, but that is merely a subset and its clear where the wrongful action is.

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Originally Posted by Arrhin

FYI, the more you bot (and I bet you do) the more resources you take from the development of the game for your "enforcement". So next time people complain about content drought just know that the GM payroll costs money and it's coming out of the same budget....

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ah yes the literal Four people that deal with bots have such a fat salary that they had to cut ultimate and deep dungeons and other stuff... right.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And I'd much rather have bots than anti-cheat software. That stuff wrecks computers, and is just a haven for hackers...

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I don't understand this. Why wouldn't you want anti-cheat software? How does it wreck your PC? SE being intrusive is not that big of a deal, your government already has access to everything you have online and your electronic devices. Personal space and online security are just an illusion created to keep people from growing too restless about being monitored constantly.

Your quote is the same as saying, I'd much rather have dumb online criminals than police specialized in preventing cyber-crime.

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Originally Posted by Dragonblanco

The example I gave was of using third party macros to do Ishgard Restoration, which many do. You create a game macro for the things, then set Razer Synapse or other programs to keep it going. It doesn't take from the economy, it doesn't really give that player a benefit over others, etc.

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Except it does give that player a huge advantage over others. It does take from the economy. You do know that scrip can be converted into items to sell on the MB, don't you?

Someone who automates that via third party tools gets to spend their time doing other things. They can run it while they sleep or they're at work then spend their normally limited game time doing other content.

Someone who only uses the in game macro that requires manual input to restart the macro each time does not. They have to make choices about whether they use their limited game time on the Restoration or on other content.

Please, just stop with the bad rationalizations on why it's okay to cheat. It's not.

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Originally Posted by Dragonblanco

If you've read my many responses in trying to educate people, you'll see where I've fully described what they are, how they work, acknowledged what is and isn't allowed by ToS, quoted what is said to be gray areas because they can't monitor what is on our computers, and so much more.

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There are no grey areas here.

Use of third party tools to automate game play is not allowed.

Those who choose to do so are cheating and are subject to ban if caught. That simple. Just because someone does not get caught does not make it okay to do.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

I don't understand this. Why wouldn't you want anti-cheat software? How does it wreck your PC? SE being intrusive is not that big of a deal, your government already has access to everything you have online and your electronic devices. Personal space and online security are just an illusion created to keep people from growing too restless about being monitored constantly.

Your quote is the same as saying, I'd much rather have dumb online criminals than police specialized in preventing cyber-crime.

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I was going to answer as best I can with my own words, but I think it might be easier to refer you to good sites with articles on it. The short of it though is because they require a lot of access, can kill your computer, prevents another entryway to your own computer for online criminals to use, and can be an invasion of privacy. But if you do have time, check out the links below.

https://techplanet.today/post/the-bi...ware-in-gaming

https://levvvel.com/what-is-kernel-l...heat-software/

https://afkgaming.com/esports/news/3...-your-computer

Then different type, more of a history on anti-cheat I guess, that highlights the issue with why stopping cheating is so difficult :

https://superjumpmagazine.com/the-an...ce-c19343be1dd

I do not agree with their approach but if we are all being honest with ourselves with SE's lack of enforcement it does create an environment with more reasons to cheat verse not.

I get cheating is bad but let us be real an action in itself being wrong is moot that does bit stop people from doing the action. Active enforcement and other actions to disincentivize someone from cheating.

One of my favorite things ever in the game was during ARR there was the native, in-game, option to create macros. It made crafting mass quantities of HQ items much less painful than it got in later content when new skills that proced became a thing. I don't know if I'm in the minority or not, but I'm the kind of guy who'd rather spend more time gathering a ton of mats and click a macro to mass-produce for leveling than craft fewer items but have to pay careful attention to a skill rotation while doing it.