How does FF14 compare to WoW? (And other MMOs)

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Hazards

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Yeah, none of the bosses I've fought do that. There are environmental stages in Fire Emblem Awakenings and Fates, but they aren't related to any boss fight and they are not the boss' power.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

the initial comment i replied to was that raiding does not seem like a good game concept and that it was not seen in single player games. nothing in that comment or my comment was about alienating a player base or a shift in design philosophy.

my point was that that design philosophy most definitely does exist in single player games.

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Yes, raiding exists in single player games.
But I think you're reading their comment a little slant.

There are single player games with raiding, but there aren't really single player games all about raiding to the point where it is the games concept. Where it is dedicated to the idea of raiding to the exclusion of other things.
Raiding has its place in single player games (especially in end game content).
Raiding in single player games isn't inherently bad game design.
But are there single player games as raid focused as WoW is? The closest I can think are games that have single player... but still push a multiplayer experience (like Monster Hunter).
As Edax said:

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Originally Posted by Edax

Raiding doesn't seem like a good "game" concept. You don't see single player games dedicated to something so niche.

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As someone who played plenty of other MMORPGs (Rappelz Online during Epic 4, Perfect World, Tera Online, WoW for a short while during burning crusade, to name a few)before joining FFXIV, i can say my two cents on the matter of how things are in comparison for me.

FFXIV's combat is very bland and basic compared to other MMOs. Telegraph reliance aside, Jobs are way too similar from one another in their fulfilling role (Black Mage and Blue Mage being the only exceptions). Other MMOs usually design their Classes in a way that makes them completely unique from one another in terms of gameplay, learning curve (almost non-existent in FFXIV) and what role they play in pve and pvp.

As for the Community, i think it is overpraised for what it is. It is no big secret that any active MMO that has a active pvp community tends to have elitism oozing all over the place which is quite the normal thing, but in the matter of FFXIV, its more like toxic casualism, that denies anyone who doesnt agree with their utopian view of FFXIV from what i can tell.

As for the World itself, it is extremely forgiving, almost to silly levels sometimes. The amount of EXP gained (and how much it is possible to obtain) is extremely high for MMO standards and the Monsters/Enemies out on the field (aside from hunting marks above rank A) are so weak, that i am suprised that they arent collapsing ob their own after making a few steps, and Dungeons are just about the same. A MMORPG is normally suppoest to be a grindy and very time consuming activity.

I understand the "this is a final fantasy first, and a MMO second" policy from the developers, but i think it shouldnt be used as a excuse to neglect the latter just out of convenience, it still is a MMO whenever People like it or not.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

As someone who played plenty of other MMORPGs (Rappelz Online during Epic 4, Perfect World, Tera Online, WoW for a short while during burning crusade, to name a few)before joining FFXIV, i can say my two cents on the matter of how things are in comparison for me.

FFXIV's combat is very bland and basic compared to other MMOs. Telegraph reliance aside, Jobs are way too similar from one another in their fulfilling role (Black Mage and Blue Mage being the only exceptions). Other MMOs usually design their Classes in a way that makes them completely unique from one another in terms of gameplay, learning curve (almost non-existent in FFXIV) and what role they play in pve and pvp.

As for the Community, i think it is overpraised for what it is. It is no big secret that any active MMO that has a active pvp community tends to have elitism oozing all over the place which is quite the normal thing, but in the matter of FFXIV, its more like toxic casualism, that denies anyone who doesnt agree with their utopian view of FFXIV from what i can tell.

As for the World itself, it is extremely forgiving, almost to silly levels sometimes. The amount of EXP gained (and how much it is possible to obtain) is extremely high for MMO standards and the Monsters/Enemies out on the field (aside from hunting marks above rank A) are so weak, that i am suprised that they arent collapsing ob their own after making a few steps, and Dungeons are just about the same. A MMORPG is normally suppoest to be a grindy and very time consuming activity.

I understand the "this is a final fantasy first, and a MMO second" policy from the developers, but i think it shouldnt be used as a excuse to neglect the latter just out of convenience, it still is a MMO whenever People like it or not.

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"It's a Final Fantasy First" is often used in such a way that people kind of gloss over and forget "It's also an MMO."

It's both, which means it can break two different ways. As time has gone on, it's started to collapse on the MMO side by pushing difficulty so low sections of the game could be replaced by a visual novel.

Praetorium is a good example. It's certainly Final Fantasy, but the combat in the present day doesn't really justify the massively multiplayer component. It could be a visual novel and nothing would be lost.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Yeah, none of the bosses I've fought do that. There are environmental stages in Fire Emblem Awakenings and Fates, but they aren't related to any boss fight and they are not the boss' power.

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notice that I specified that they occur during boss fights, not that the boss itself was activating them.

and there were fire emblem games before those two [yells at clouds]

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Originally Posted by van_arn

As time has gone on, it's started to collapse on the MMO side by pushing difficulty so low sections of the game could be replaced by a visual novel.

Praetorium is a good example. It's certainly Final Fantasy, but the combat in the present day doesn't really justify the massively multiplayer component. It could be a visual novel and nothing would be lost.

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Was Praetorium ever hard though?
I'm not sure that's a good example.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Yes, raiding exists in single player games.
But I think you're reading their comment a little slant.

There are single player games with raiding, but there aren't really single player games all about raiding to the point where it is the games concept. Where it is dedicated to the idea of raiding to the exclusion of other things.
Raiding has its place in single player games (especially in end game content).
Raiding in single player games isn't inherently bad game design.
But are there single player games as raid focused as WoW is? The closest I can think are games that have single player... but still push a multiplayer experience (like Monster Hunter).
As Edax said:

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I think there's just a fundamental difference between our definitions of raiding as it pertains to single player games, which is fine. like I said, based on my definition of single player raiding plenty of games employ it.

personally as someone who played WoW in very brief spurts, I find WoW's endgame to be very raid focused but other aspects (story, questing, leveling, transmog, etc) exist without it and there are other sorts of endgame removed from it entirely (a la PVP and mythic+).

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I think there's just a fundamental difference between our definitions of raiding as it pertains to single player games, which is fine.

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This... is probably very true lol
A lot of the friction in this side conversation really does seem to come from that.

Coming from WoW and having played for a long time including their latest expansion FF14 has far too many advantages when compared to WoW

FF14
-A community that is miles better than the WoW community
-They treat casuals decently by giving us decent rewards for our time and decent gear progression without forcing high end content
-Crafting system is actually good and indepth
-Jobs and reputations are on one character so you never need to regrind everything if you change class
-This is important, immersion is simply far better, devs clearly spent time and money on small details like the wind affecting your hair/clothes, the facial animations through tiny changes conveying genuine emotions etc
-Better class design, WoW classes have been dumbed down a lot, though I am talking for dps, I never play tanks or healers
-housing
-Trials
-The devs care for the majority of the playerbase unlike the WoW devs who heavily focus on high end community at the expense of everyone else
-Better mogs, mogs are just better for me, I want to get so many while in WoW I just got a decent one and never bothered since most were meh
-It is not a casino or timegated grindfest*
-No need for addons, in WoW you ll need a ton of addons for literally everything
-Relics, a grind that is worth it for a strong/cool weapon
-Better story by miles, WoW story isnt that bad, but its positives are mostly in their cinematics and watching it as a movie with characters, not the ingame player driven story that is beyond silly.
-SE actually cares about stopping toxic attitude so they hire GMs and have great ways of punishing rule breakers so they dont do it again, WoW chats are a cesspool
-Raids dont have a hour of trash clearing(overall) that also respawn the moment you leave if you havent cleared certain bosses.

*Grinds are needed in an mmorpg, but WoW has focused so much on POINTLESS silly grinds and combined with the casino gear system it is designed to be an addiction machine with "maybe this week i ll get lucky and get a decent reward"

WoW
-More responsive and reaction based combat (Of course that means weak/boring animations in exchange)
-Australian servers
-Repeatable high end content with raids/m+/arenas
-Mog system is easier to use but the mogs arent interesting
-Some really good cinematics

Honestly the few positives they have also lead to a terrible community full of obnoxious elitists, metaslave tryhards whose ego depends on beating content ASAP with the most broken comb possible(Which kinda trivializes the challenge lol) for the prestige and self worth, the issue is because their ego depends on this they play the game like it is a job, not an actual VIDEO GAME, then you have the many addicts who might even hate WoW yet cant leave because of all the time invested and those manipulative time limited/exclusive rewards they have in their account.

If you like consistency then FF14 is the better MMO by a mile. If you like mood swing development then WoW is a good fit. From one patch to the next and expansion to the next in FF14 it is consistent in what to expect.

When it comes to WoW they throw out even the most basic stuff of how you get gear to try new systems that I have yet to see them get right.

On the matter of Healers and Tanks from Ralph2449's Post, unfortunately, those two Roles are quite badly designed compared to the Dps Jobs, in both pve and pvp content.

On the matter of Healers, theyre in a technical sense, all the exact same as WHM is. They have way too many Healing abilities (14 for WHM, 11+3 from SCH because of Fairy, and 11 from AST) and not even a handful of attack skills (one basic attack spell, one aoe, one dot is the norm. WHM gets a discountprice foul and SCH has Monster Energy Drain which Squeenix really hates from the bottom of their heart. AST used to have lord of crowns dealing damage but isnt allowed anymore because people had memory issues memorizing every single card having a different effect, so now its just flat dps boosts.)

On the matter of Tanks, theyre using the Warrior Job as a reference of designing the rest of them. if you compare the skills on paper right next to each other, you will notice that theyre all basically the same with very few minor changes, like the immortality buttons like living dead, holmgang, panic bubble and Superbold having slight drawbacks, except for PLD because of special privileges, and gunbreaker having a additional dps rotation compared to the rest of the gang.

As for PvP, oh boy where do i even start. PvP in this game is designed arround TEAM focused fights, not man-on-man combat so you can pretty much guess you share on this already. to keep things short, Healers are the actual tanks in pvp, Tanks are just bullies knocking people off ledges or just being a mild annoyance and DPS is cannonfodder, Ranged dps is everyones favorite because attacking from a distance, while melee dps gets for the drawback of actually having to walk into the face of everyone else a massive dps burst that melts anyone in hand-to-hand combat, especially if limit break is used.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Raiding doesn't seem like a good "game" concept. You don't see single player games dedicated to something so niche.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Yes, raiding exists in single player games.
But I think you're reading their comment a little slant.

There are single player games with raiding, but there aren't really single player games all about raiding to the point where it is the games concept. Where it is dedicated to the idea of raiding to the exclusion of other things.

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That's really the thing about raiding though. As a concept, it's multiplayer only. The argument that "It's not a good game concept because it's not seen in single player games" is kinda like saying that "PVP isn't a good game concept because it's not in a single player game". PVP will need players for the player to fight with, Raiding(Cooperative PVE) will need players to raid with. That's how it is. Raiding is just a method of giving players stuff that scratch the itch. It scratches the itch of cooperative play, and it scratches the itch of completing difficult content. It's not in single player games because single player games are not cooperative at all.

Now is there a game that revolves around cooperative play? Yeah of course. Plenty.
Is there a game that revolves around difficult content? Yeah plenty.
Is there a game that revolves around cooperative play that tackles difficult content? Yes, a lot of it actually.

So a game that revolves around raiding as a concept (Monster Hunter) can work. It's just up to the devs if they would like to implement that or not.
Disregarding a game concept just because it doesn't work in a single player setting is just plain silly.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

theyre using the Warrior Job as a reference of designing the rest of them. if you compare the skills on paper right next to each other, you will notice that theyre all basically the same with very few minor changes

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You could just as easily get Paladin and say they designed the rest of the tanks after it. Both Paladin and Warrior were release jobs. In fact they had to give abilities that Paladin had to Warriors - such as Provoke and Rampart.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

That's really the thing about raiding though. As a concept, it's multiplayer only. The argument that "It's not a good game concept because it's not seen in single player games" is kinda like saying that "PVP isn't a good game concept because it's not in a single player game". PVP will need players for the player to fight with, Raiding(Cooperative PVE) will need players to raid with. That's how it is.

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Not necessarily.
The term is so vague that it can easily encompass single player games where you raid with AI allies.
As long as you're part of a group (human or otherwise) the term sticks.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Disregarding a game concept just because it doesn't work in a single player setting is just plain silly.

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You're right... to a point.
In this context Ihowever, I think it's a fair statement.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your comments about raiding being about socializing and cooperative play. But that raises the question if these things are fun because they're fun, or because you're with your friends.
If you strip away the socializing, raiding seems to be a hollow enough experience that it can't carry a game. So basing a game AROUND raiding (when it's strongest point is the socializing that happens around and outside the game)... might not be the best idea.

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Originally Posted by Raelsar

WoW has left a LOT of bad blood behind it because of how the game has evolved over the years, the majority of which have pushed it in one particular direction -- towards the hardcore, ultra-competitive and endlessly repetitive endgame.

But being the breakout hit of the MMORPG genre, it attracted all kinds of players; many of which were simply looking for another "RPG", likely viewing the whole MMO aspect as a novelty. Due to the aforementioned changes, a lot of the former audience has either drifted away or turned sour towards the game; it wouldn't be inaccurate to say many of them have a chip on their shoulder over it. Conversely, those who liked those changes over the years because the game increasingly became their sort of thing... they're practically sycophantic towards it. Getting the two parties to have a reasonable discussion is easier said than done.

The shortest version is that if you consider yourself a competitive and goal-oriented player who enjoys the endgame to the point you'd prefer the rest of it didn't exist? Go with WoW.
If you aren't competitive and want to focus on the more traditional RPG aspects like storytelling, exploration, visual customization... or pretty much anything else that isn't strictly endgame? Go with FFXIV.

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What's really ironic there is that when WoW first came out, it gained so much popularity because it was the alternative to the niche hardcore raiding games like EverQuest. Even though EQII came out at almost the same time and also was supposed to be an alternative to the group-centric EQ, WoW was even more accessible than EQII. Now they are both games that cater to the very audience they patterned themselves against.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

That's really the thing about raiding though. As a concept, it's multiplayer only. The argument that "It's not a good game concept because it's not seen in single player games" is kinda like saying that "PVP isn't a good game concept because it's not in a single player game". PVP will need players for the player to fight with, Raiding(Cooperative PVE) will need players to raid with. That's how it is. Raiding is just a method of giving players stuff that scratch the itch. It scratches the itch of cooperative play, and it scratches the itch of completing difficult content. It's not in single player games because single player games are not cooperative at all.

Now is there a game that revolves around cooperative play? Yeah of course. Plenty.
Is there a game that revolves around difficult content? Yeah plenty.
Is there a game that revolves around cooperative play that tackles difficult content? Yes, a lot of it actually.

So a game that revolves around raiding as a concept (Monster Hunter) can work. It's just up to the devs if they would like to implement that or not.
Disregarding a game concept just because it doesn't work in a single player setting is just plain silly.

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But like I said, team deathmatch still works in single player. Same with those horde mode games. It all works as multiplayer or single player because there is something inherently fun about direct competition or defending an objective to the last man in a siege. But taking a very large team to take down a boss with massive attacks in order to get powerful items is a niche concept, the gameplay almost resembles trying to nail a synchronized swimming routine, it does not inherently appear to be a fun concept and you don't see such concepts explored often in single player. And I posited you don't see these type of raiding games in single player for good reason, it is not inherently fun trying to memorize and act out a routine.

Honestly, how many questions are you going to ask before you use a search engine to build an impression yourself?

Is this an attention thing?

my personal take

- FF14 has better story, while wow also have good story, their story is a little messy for me because in wow i dont feel like iam actually "involved" in it, it feels like my character just "happened" to be there because... reasons.

- FF14 combat pace is much more manageable for me, the "fast paced" of FF14 come from skill weaving while in wow its because the 1.5 GCD. and this is shown because i actually can play as good healer in FF14 while in wow as healer i cant keep up with the pace, aside from tank they just die within 2-4 hit and it really caught me off guard everytime.

- the community obviously, both game has their ups and down but FF14 got more ups for me, in wow if you can find the guild for you, you will feel at home but outside? in general talk, party talk, dont expect warm welcome. meanwhile in FF14 you can still find good talk/chat even outside guild chat

- connected to my previous point, because of it FF14 also has better customary/tradition compare to wow, no one will vote kick you just because you fail once or twice, party will not disband just because one or two wipe, in FF14 some players even give you help like how to do it properly, or ask the party to take it slowly, etc, no one care with your 1% dps loss (at least not on top 1% raid content)

- iam not into pvp so i found the overall atmosphere/setting in FF14 is more "at home" for me, FF14 is all about grand adventures, band together to defeat evil, social interaction with emotes, playing instrument, etc. while its also similar in wow, majority of the interaction is a show off, trolling or pvp right away (in non pvp server i lost count how many times i got duel request from someone TEN level higher than me, like what do you expect me to do here?)

- this is probably starting BFA but i found enemy placement in wow is just full annoyance compare to FF14, in mmorpg i tend to avoid enemy mobs unless i have to kill them, and in most mmorpg the dev always put enemy where you can actively avoid them, but in wow enemy placement is so tight i tend to encounter them most of the time which annoy me so much

- one thing that i can vouch for wow compare to FF14 is the feel of "hits" in combat, in this category i actually found wow is much much better than FF14, when i cast fireball or swing my sword as warrior, the hit connected to enemy feel way better than FF14, the sound and the effect has more "oomph" to it.

wow is definitely a great game, but the combat pace, the setting, the tone of the game and the overall feeling is definitely not for me.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Not necessarily.
The term is so vague that it can easily encompass single player games where you raid with AI allies.
As long as you're part of a group (human or otherwise) the term sticks.

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I honestly don't consider content with AI allies as raiding. I see them more as single player content due to the fact that you're playing with bots, not other people. I also apply the same logic with PvP, "PvP" with bots isn't really PvP, it needs players, like how Raiding needs players. Unless the AI starts speaking in voice chat and becoming sentient, then I'll keep holding that view.

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But that raises the question if these things are fun because they're fun, or because you're with your friends.

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Why not both? It's fun and it's fun to do it with people. That's like implying that playing Team sports isn't fun. Team sports are fun because the game is fun and playing with other people are fun.

And it's not like raiders don't socialize either, we do. There's multiple discord servers related to raiding, people arguing about rotations, theorycrafting about melds, sharing fight-specific strats and tips. Like even just doing content is socializing, especially with a group of friends. People make fun of each other for getting damage down, Healers call out what they heal or who they will rez. People call out who's north blue or south blue, and people talk shit between pulls, and meme between pulls.

Hell, I've made a lot of my good friends from raiding in this game. We're not all robots that only cares about the order of how we press our buttons. There's a reason that it's called a raiding community.

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If you strip away the socializing, raiding seems to be a hollow enough experience that it can't carry a game. So basing a game AROUND raiding (when it's strongest point is the socializing that happens around and outside the game)... might not be the best idea.

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I think what you meant here is the side fluff that happens in the game. I do agree that FFXIV can't survive right now if it gets rid of the fluff, because there's very few content in the game itself that's actually repeatable. The game relies on players actually making content for themselves, so of course it's not gonna stand without the fluff.

What it definitely needs is repeatable raids and content that's outside of the 8-Man Savages and Ultimate. And frankly, it can benefit from that focus a whole lot. Maybe Savage dungeons? Maybe Savage raid mutations? I don't know, but it needs something.

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Originally Posted by Edax

But like I said, team deathmatch still works in single player. Same with those horde mode games. It all works as multiplayer or single player because there is something inherently fun about direct competition or defending an objective to the last man in a siege.

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But taking a very large team to take down a boss with massive attacks in order to get powerful items is a niche concept, the gameplay almost resembles trying to nail a synchronized swimming routine, it does not inherently appear to be a fun concept and you don't see such concepts explored often in single player. And I posited you don't see these type of raiding games in single player for good reason, it is not inherently fun trying to memorize and act out a routine.

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This is a direct criticism to FFXIV content in general. They're pretty static, so after doing it once, most people just either farm for gear or do it once and it's over. I'll give you that the choreographed static mechanics doesn't work in single player, but it's because it doesn't work as repeatable content as well. I'm 100% in support of making raid content replayable other than static.

Regardles though, most games that does have raiding aren't like this. Some, like Destiny 2, rely on the non-static raid design and the good gunplay to make things repeatable. Some, like WoW, rely on pure raid design that's mostly unpredictable, and some like unconventional games like GTFO and Monster Hunter rely on good 'ole RNG to make it replayable.

I agree that FFXIV raiding needs work, but saying that no game can actually revolve around raiding and have it fun is just an uninformed opinion.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I think what you meant here is the side fluff that happens in the game. I do agree that FFXIV can't survive right now if it gets rid of the fluff, because there's very few content in the game itself that's actually repeatable. The game relies on players actually making content for themselves, so of course it's not gonna stand without the fluff.

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I am genuinely confused about this statement. Mmos by design heavily rely on content being repeatable. For example you have to keep doing the same content over and over again to get gear whether that's through currency or loot drops.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I am genuinely confused about this statement. Mmos by design heavily rely on content being repeatable. For example you have to keep doing the same content over and over again to get gear whether that's through currency or loot drops.

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I meant that most content in FFXIV is a one and done thing. MSQ cutscenes are great, the solo instances are great, the writing is amazing.
The only main problem is that well, you run through it once and then you're done.

The only content that's repeatable in the game is pretty much:
- 450 tome grind once per week
- Roulettes
- Savage Raids once a week (with the addition of parse running that's not supported by the game)
- EX fights
- Bozja
- BLU

That's pretty much it. There's content in there that's replayable, but it's very few in between that people literally rely on RP and player made events to not afk in Limsa.
I'm not saying that they don't have any content that's replayable. In fact, BLU and Bozja is a really good step forward in that direction, they just need more of it.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I honestly don't consider content with AI allies as raiding. I see them more as single player content due to the fact that you're playing with bots, not other people. I also apply the same logic with PvP, "PvP" with bots isn't really PvP, it needs players, like how Raiding needs players. Unless the AI starts speaking in voice chat and becoming sentient, then I'll keep holding that view.

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I think Mavrias summed it up best when they said:

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I think there's just a fundamental difference between our definitions of raiding as it pertains to single player games, which is fine.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Why not both? It's fun and it's fun to do it with people. That's like implying that playing Team sports isn't fun. Team sports are fun because the game is fun and playing with other people are fun.

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You absolutely can have both.
Like team sports, there absolutely are things that are both.
I'm questioning wether raiding is both.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

And it's not like raiders don't socialize either, we do. There's multiple discord servers related to raiding, people arguing about rotations, theorycrafting about melds, sharing fight-specific strats and tips. Like even just doing content is socializing, especially with a group of friends. People make fun of each other for getting damage down, Healers call out what they heal or who they will rez. People call out who's north blue or south blue, and people talk shit between pulls, and meme between pulls.

Hell, I've made a lot of my good friends from raiding in this game. We're not all robots that only cares about the order of how we press our buttons. There's a reason that it's called a raiding community.

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I dont understand what this is in response to.
I never suggested raiders dont socialize. I feel like I actually learned into that being one of the core draws to raiding.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I think what you meant here is the side fluff that happens in the game. I do agree that FFXIV can't survive right now if it gets rid of the fluff, because there's very few content in the game itself that's actually repeatable. The game relies on players actually making content for themselves, so of course it's not gonna stand without the fluff.

What it definitely needs is repeatable raids and content that's outside of the 8-Man Savages and Ultimate. And frankly, it can benefit from that focus a whole lot. Maybe Savage dungeons? Maybe Savage raid mutations? I don't know, but it needs something.

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Yeah yeah YEAH!
(I agree with you a lot here)
Side fluff can be super important.
Having players engage consistently with one element/activity is fine. The more that one thing dominates the games design... well that can lead to problems.

Some games are 80% one activity with some peripheral things for the player to do (like many racing games).
And that's not inherently bad.

Some games are 100% their core activity... like Tetris.
And Tetris rocks!

But raiding? Is that a strong enough core to build a large percentage of your game around?
As fun as it is, I personally don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I meant that most content in FFXIV is a one and done thing. MSQ cutscenes are great, the solo instances are great, the writing is amazing.
The only main problem is that well, you run through it once and then you're done.

The only content that's repeatable in the game is pretty much:
- 450 tome grind once per week
- Roulettes
- Savage Raids once a week (with the addition of parse running that's not supported by the game)
- EX fights
- Bozja
- BLU

That's pretty much it. There's content in there that's replayable, but it's very few in between that people literally rely on RP and player made events to not afk in Limsa.
I'm not saying that they don't have any content that's replayable. In fact, BLU and Bozja is a really good step forward in that direction, they just need more of it.

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You forgot a few:

• The msq now is repeatable with New Game+ although as far as I'm aware the entire msq isn't there but the point still stands
• Players often repeat msq content to lvl up new classes
• It seems you forgot deep dungeons exist, which are hugely popular for lvling
• Crafting and gathering requires a tremendous amount of repetition
• Pvp
• Hunt marks
• Fates, while not very interesting they are repeatable

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Originally Posted by Payotz

but it's very few in between that people literally rely on RP and player made events to not afk in Limsa.

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Hrmm...not all players rp though. Many are happy to continue repeating the in-game content SE provides. As for idling, well everyone does that. People take breaks to eat, walk the dog, etc. How common it may look is hugely due to how the game doesn't log you out after a certain period of inactivity. I am certainly guilty of leaving myself logged in when I go to play console games.

The single player equivalent of raiding in a single-player game would be superbosses.

Stuff like the dark eidolons from ffx or the weapons in ff7.

You need a party of exceptionally equipped players, some good strategy, and a lot of time to get to the point where you can consider taking them on.

Perhaps some exceptionally gifted players can take on these bosses with less gear and more skill, but if defeated these bosses will often drop items that only they can provide.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I think Mavrias summed it up best when they said:

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That's fair then. I'll go forward with my definition.

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You absolutely can have both.
Like team sports, there absolutely are things that are both.
I'm questioning wether raiding is both.

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Yes it is. It's both fun and socialization.
We enjoy the combat, we just need it to be more repeatable.
We play this game for fun, and we tackle this type of content for fun.
The feeling of actually completing a fight is amazing, and the adrenaline is something no other content that's currently in the game can replicate.

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I dont understand what this is in response to.
I never suggested raiders dont socialize. I feel like I actually learned into that being one of the core draws to raiding.

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Then apologies for that. I assumed you implied that we didn't socialize due to your question.

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Yeah yeah YEAH!
(I agree with you a lot here)
Side fluff can be super important.
Having players engage consistently with one element/activity is fine. The more that one thing dominates the games design... well that can lead to problems.

Some games are 80% one activity with some peripheral things for the player to do (like many racing games).
And that's not inherently bad.

Some games are 100% their core activity... like Tetris.
And Tetris rocks!

But raiding? Is that a strong enough core to build a large percentage of your game around?
As fun as it is, I personally don't think so.

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And like I said. It can, as games like Monster Hunter, GTFO, Dauntless, God Eater demonstrate.
Will it actually stand up with FFXIV style of raiding? No.
What needs to be done? Change up the style of raiding from static to something that's dynamic and repeatable.

Let's add to the list that beast tribes, normal trials, raids and dungeon roulettes are also repeatable.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Let's add to the list that beast tribes, normal trials, raids and dungeon roulettes are also repeatable.

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I suppose they just listed the content they're interested in repeating instead of all the content that is repeatable.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

What's really ironic there is that when WoW first came out, it gained so much popularity because it was the alternative to the niche hardcore raiding games like EverQuest. Even though EQII came out at almost the same time and also was supposed to be an alternative to the group-centric EQ, WoW was even more accessible than EQII. Now they are both games that cater to the very audience they patterned themselves against.

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100% this. The evolution of World of Warcraft is an interesting one.

People were so upset with the difficulty of Everquest raids that they went to the more casual and easier World of Warcraft. In fact many Everquest raiders who were really annoyed at EQ would become WoW developers in those early days. The raids are actually pretty easy by today's standards, only a couple of mechanics in the raids, but this drove participation levels up. In fact if you check the warcraft classic logs and compare them with retail, many, many, many, MANY, MAAAAAANY more people are parsing in Classic compared to the combined parses of normal, heroic, and mythic on retail. In other words the raids in Classic or Vanilla are still CRAZY popular and part of that is because it's easier. WoW was always a casual game, people who think it's hard is misremembering things. It was always a casual alternative to Everquest and that's how it became popular.

These days Blizzard focuses almost entirely on raiding and hard end game content, the very thing WoW started out being against in Vanilla, and neglecting almost every other part of the game. Maybe they wanted to push the ESport thing but WoW will never succeed as an ESport, casual fans don't know what's going on. Weird.

Anyway I hope the FFXIV developers take note of what's going on with WoW and avoid the same mistakes

(This was initially a part of my reply to ItMe, but I'm just gonna split it to another post for visibility)

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Originally Posted by Penthea

You forgot a few:

• The msq now is repeatable with New Game+ although as far as I'm aware the entire msq isn't there but the point still stands
• Players often repeat msq content to lvl up new classes
• It seems you forgot deep dungeons exist, which are hugely popular for lvling
• Crafting and gathering requires a tremendous amount of repetition
• Pvp
• Hunt marks
• Fates, while not very interesting they are repeatable

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> The msq now is repeatable with New Game+ although as far as I'm aware the entire msq isn't there but the point still stands
Technically yes, but so is running around Limsa, and despite me enjoying running around Limsa, I don't count that as repeatable content.

> Players often repeat msq content to lvl up new classes
If you mean doing roulettes, and dailies then yes. I admit, this is something that I forgot. I'll add this to the list.
If you're talking about New Game +, then no, unfortunately, New Game + does not give any rewards to repeating them.


>It seems you forgot deep dungeons exist, which are hugely popular for lvling
Which is technically added to Bozja, because you can't level from 70-80 using HoH or PoTD.
If there's a new DD expansion of HoH to level 70-80 like PoTD with Heavensward, then yes I'll take this as repeatable content.
Unfortunately, it's not.

>Crafting and gathering requires a tremendous amount of repetition
Ishgard Restoration, sure. I'll deem that as "Repeatable" content, but if you're saying that crafting itself is repeatable content, then you might as well say that practicing your rotation on the striking dummy is repeatable content.

>Pvp
Which is dead half the time, and where they can't fix because most people don't have interest in it, and they can't fix because the server ticks aren't snappy enough for split second decisions.
Ever had to CC a healer in Frontlines and then see him fly back towards his backline due to Holmgang not applying until after a second or two later? Yeah, that's the problem.
I honestly don't know how Square could fix it without fixing server backend.

>Hunt marks
Which is pretty much added to the 450 tomestone grind. People don't do trains for fun, they do it for tomes.
Which is technically repeatable, but only for the once a week variety.

>Fates, while not very interesting they are repeatable
And so is running around the overworld and farming the 200,000 enemies down achievements.

See where I'm going here? All of these are technically repeatable content. Technically. The main question is this, do you think that this is acceptable repeatable content for 5-6 months of content drought?
If no, we should ask:

Do they need more work to expand it? Yes. Bonus points if they attach new content into old content, or revitalize content. Idk, just do something with it (like the Relic grind, but make it more interesting).
Do they need more work to add more of it? Yes. Especially the ones that does have a timesink in it, like Bozja and BLU. Bonus points if it adds to your character that you can carry with you across the expansions (BLU).

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Hrmm...not all players rp though. Many are happy to continue repeating the in-game content SE provides. As for idling, well everyone does that. People take breaks to eat, walk the dog, etc. How common it may look is hugely due to how the game doesn't log you out after a certain period of inactivity. I am certainly guilty of leaving myself logged in when I go to play console games.

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See, there's a reason why most people's experience in the game is literally log in, alt+tab and do something else.
Not all players RP yes, that's why they need to add more content on top of it if these players don't wanna engage in the side fluff the game has at this time.
They need to add content too for these types of players.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

You absolutely can have both.
Like team sports, there absolutely are things that are both.
I'm questioning wether raiding is both.

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Of course raiding can be both. But it's not going to be both for everyone. Not everyone likes the same thing.

Don't enjoy raiding in a MMO? Do the other content. There's plenty of it. Those who do enjoy raiding will do that and skip the other pieces of content they don't enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Nafreyu

Honestly, how many questions are you going to ask before you use a search engine to build an impression yourself?

Is this an attention thing?

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Current theory OP is actually an alt of recurring forum troll trying out a new tactic where they ask supposedly innocent questions about semi-to-seriously controversial forum topics under the guise of a new player, and with how they are literally spamming GD with questions that can be easily answered literally anywhere else I'm leaning toward it being true.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

]See, there's a reason why most people's experience in the game is literally log in, alt+tab and do something else.
Not all players RP yes, that's why they need to add more content on top of it if these players don't wanna engage in the side fluff the game has at this time.
They need to add content too for these types of players.

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Hello *waves*

I don't mind having too little repeatable content mainly because I recently played Destiny with it's 10 different types of daily/weekly grinds which was pretty much all the content. It burnt me out in two months. There's a little bit of grind in FFXIV but requiring people to do too much grind will be heading down the other side where the game tries to keep you logged in daily (for those valuable active user numbers) without adding much new content. Just doing the same thing.

I think a mythic plus system would be amazing, but if you're talking about dailies and stuff, or WoW's reputation grinds ... please no xD

I think the upcoming Island Sanctuary will be repeatable content though :)

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Originally Posted by KenXSSS

I already covered a bit of this in that other thread too, but:

Things that FFXIV has:
- Better Story
- Better Crafting/Job System
- Friendlier Community
- Better Player Housing (better than garrisons, so not a high bar)
- Better Dungeons/Trials
- Better Graphics/Player models

Things that WoW has:
- Better Transmog System/Banking/Inventory System
- Better PVP
- Trade Chat
- Better Leveling
- Better Endgame
- Larger Community, albeit more toxic
- In-Game Store that actually works and accepts your payments
- Better Add-ons
- Feels like an MMO
- Better Punishment System (this is newly added)

I would say the main problem with FF14 is the fact that in-game chat is kept to a minimum, because it seems like SE likes punishing players and leaving strikes on people's accounts, resulting in strangely quiet chat most of the time for an MMO. People here also like to bash WoW and Blizz, but like others have said, for serious endgame raiding progression/endgame PVP WoW will fill that niche. Each game has it's strengths but I would say WoW feels closer to an MMO

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The trade chat in WoW is pretty much 99% boosting spam.

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Originally Posted by Rae88

Hello *waves*

I don't mind having too little repeatable content mainly because I recently played Destiny with it's 10 different types of daily/weekly grinds which was pretty much all the content. It burnt me out in two months. There's a little bit of grind in FFXIV but requiring people to do too much grind will be heading down the other side where the game tries to keep you logged in daily (for those valuable active user numbers) without adding much new content. Just doing the same thing.

I think a mythic plus system would be amazing, but if you're talking about dailies and stuff, or WoW's reputation grinds ... please no xD

I think the upcoming Island Sanctuary will be repeatable content though :)

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Oh yeah, I don't mean flooding the game with repeatable content to the point it's mandatory to grind .
I'm talking about stuff like BLU where you can work on it whenever you're looking for something to do it, and it sticks to you unlike Bozja and Eureka; And, I'm also hoping that Hardcore content can be expanded into Mythic + dungeons or make it so that Savage fights are repeatable (aside from the once a week gear, maybe with mutations or what not).

The upcoming Island Sanctuary is something I have high hopes for as it seems to be a big timesink that's optional but, it also comes with us through all the expansions (like BLU).
It's honestly kinda weird that they started teasing this for ShB tbh, when they're actually doing it for EndWalker; I was honestly looking forward to it, but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by White_Wolf_X

The trade chat in WoW is pretty much 99% boosting spam.

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I have no problem with WoW fans or WoW fangirls or fanboys, everyone is entitled to enjoy the games they like. I do have a problem with people trying to position themselves as impartial while ...

FOR EXAMPLE, modern WoW's leveling system isn't a system designed as an experience at all, it's a system designed to get you to endgame as fast as possible, in some cases in 1 or 2 days. How is a leveling system designed to get you to stop leveling as quick as possible superior? I've often questioned what the point of it is in modern WoW.

Which made their free trial laughable btw. It used to be free to level 20 out of 120. That's literally a couple of hours of content. Hope you enjoyed that trial everybody :P

The larger community is a bit of a ... problem actually. Because the community has been in decline and they haven't reduced the number of servers lots of servers were ghost towns. Which I guess was an advantage if you were a gathering bot or something. But to combat this Blizzard has had to combine multiple, multiple servers into ... shards? Which I'm not sure is the best solution really.

"Feels like an MMO" is completely subjective and they refuse to answer the question how a game that can be played completely solo feels like a multiplayer game.

The endgame is really good though

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I'm talking about stuff like BLU where you can work on it whenever you're looking for something to do it, and it sticks to you unlike Bozja and Eureka; And, I'm also hoping that Hardcore content can be expanded into Mythic + dungeons or make it so that Savage fights are repeatable (aside from the once a week gear, maybe with mutations or what not).

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More stuff like that sounds AMAZING :)

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

Current theory OP is actually an alt of recurring forum troll trying out a new tactic where they ask supposedly innocent questions about semi-to-seriously controversial forum topics under the guise of a new player, and with how they are literally spamming GD with questions that can be easily answered literally anywhere else I'm leaning toward it being true.

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plot twist: it is the same guy, but he has amnesia. all the questions are genuine. it's merely his troll instinct driving his boundless curiosity.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I agree that FFXIV raiding needs work, but saying that no game can actually revolve around raiding and have it fun is just an uninformed opinion.

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I point to the fact that such games aren't already all over the place. Plenty of games have team deathmatch and horde mode, few if any are dedicated to raiding in a single player context. Raiding for the most part, seems to have spawned from the MMORPG phenomenon and for the most part stayed there, having evolved as large scale dungeons of the classic old-school RPGs. The old dungeoneering of classic RPG has stuck around through, usually with the use of puzzles in single player campaigns, raiding remains niche.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comments about raiding being about socializing and cooperative play. But that raises the question if these things are fun because they're fun, or because you're with your friends.
If you strip away the socializing, raiding seems to be a hollow enough experience that it can't carry a game. So basing a game AROUND raiding (when it's strongest point is the socializing that happens around and outside the game)... might not be the best idea.

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I think you are for the most part correct. Without the socializing and cooperative play, the gameplay just isn't that fun when it has to standalone. Imagine if they removed all the rewards for raiding in WoW, would that many people still do it because they consider it fun?

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Originally Posted by Edax

I point to the fact that such games aren't already all over the place. Plenty of games have team deathmatch and horde mode, few if any are dedicated to raiding in a single player context.
Raiding for the most part, seems to have spawned from the MMORPG phenomenon and for the most part stayed there, having evolved as large scale dungeons of the classic old-school RPGs. The old dungeoneering of classic RPG has stuck around through, usually with the use of puzzles in single player campaigns, raiding remains niche.

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It's not in single player because it's not meant to be single player. It's meant to be a cooperative PvE experience with other people.
This is again, just like saying that PvP is doable in a Single Player experience, it's not, and putting team deathmatch PvP on top of it makes it a PvE experience if it's against bots.

GTFO isn't all over the place. In fact it's still focused on the "raiding" aspect of it, same as Monster Hunter and the same as Dauntless. These games don't have a "team deathmatch" mode or even a "horde mode" and I reckon there are plenty more games like this that you and I haven't discovered yet that does well with this concept. "Raiding" in the sense of Cooperative Hardcore PvE is still alive and well even if it's the Only element to the game.

And it's always been a huge draw to other MMOs that doesn't have it as its only single element like Destiny and WoW, and despite both games having more elements to it aside from Raiding, they still thrive as they focus more into their raiding scene and PvE scene more than other content.

A game can still revolve around raiding as its core game concept, just like how a game can also revolve around PvP as its core game concept.
Just because it's not viable in an only single player game doesn't mean it's a bad game concept.

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I think you are for the most part correct. Without the socializing and cooperative play, the gameplay just isn't that fun when it has to standalone. Imagine if they removed all the rewards for raiding in WoW, would that many people still do it because they consider it fun?

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I know you weren't pointing this question to me, but in my opinion, yeah many people will still do it. They'd probably only do it once, or probably do it for parses, but yeah people will still do it despite a lot of people complaining about it giving no gear or rewards. And even then, the few people who really enjoy it will find a way to make their content repeatable (My examples would be from an FFXIV perspective so bear with me.), either through speedrunning, or parse logging or just plain meme runs (All Tanks Ultimate or Solo Heal Ultimate) even with no reward.

Now does this mean that content shouldn't be made repeatable? No it should. Just like how SE attaches incentives to Leveling Roulette even though there are people who enjoy running dungeons in FFXIV, they should attach incentives to content to make it naturally repeatable.

Now, do you think that many people will still do these because they consider this fun, with no rewards, no incentives, no xp?

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Originally Posted by Penthea

You forgot a few:

• The msq now is repeatable with New Game+ although as far as I'm aware the entire msq isn't there but the point still stands
• Players often repeat msq content to lvl up new classes
• It seems you forgot deep dungeons exist, which are hugely popular for lvling
• Crafting and gathering requires a tremendous amount of repetition
• Pvp
• Hunt marks
• Fates, while not very interesting they are repeatable

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I'm not a game. Why are you comparing FF14 to me? Da**q is wrong with you, OP?