Better finish Delubrum now because it will dead cotent very soon

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

THERE is nothing and I mean nothing that Square Enix can bribe me with to ever want to put up with a raid that has Doom plus Mettle losses to this extent. There is no lee way to learn a fight without extremely punishing mechanics.

This will dead content very soon and people will be crying on the forums. NO tank will bother with this content very soon. You learned a good lesson about making it a queue and auto organizing the party but learned nothing from why people hated Castrum.

It is cool one time but no chance you will ever see me step foot in Delubrum ever again.

Edit: Since I try to be positive. Get rid of the Doom mechanic completely. If you die from something then ok and take maybe a 10k mettle loss in the entire run but 70-100k is just not going to work. The boss mechanics are amazing and it is fun to learn but penalizing people so heavily is just ridiculous.

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...Well I... disagree!

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

The good thing is, SE must have data on how many people enter etc so that'll in the end be the deciding factor, not the vocal minority. But that could be said for anything in this game or any MMO, for better or worse.

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The problem is that it's deceptive and that the participation stats don't tell you how many people are enjoying it versus how many are enduring it because they have to for the relic or for highly desirable items. SE will interpret (or at least portray) it 100% as a sign that people are enjoying themselves and that they are justified to continue it in 6.0.

(Also, once again the highly sought-after female hairstyle is locked behind RNG in niche content that cannot be soloed and is likely to dry up over time.)

For the record, I have not tried it yet and I might even enjoy it. But the requirements, mettle loss and constant "running to stay still" of the treadmill are demotivating, and it's risky putting it in a place where people have to specifically engage with that content and not in some form of duty finder roulette.

We had also 2 healers in my whole group, none of them in my party. Several people left after first boss, so we were about 17~18 for the rest of the raid.We cleared after 2 h + (with no wipes) thanks mostly to the unfaltering dedication of those 2 healers, that knew the fight and kept raising the hell out of everyone. I ran Castrum around 30 times + and i enjoyed it a lot. Did I have fun in Delubrum? No. Do I want to run it ever again? Frankly, no. So I won't. But that's just me. Other people have and will enjoy it. Not everything can be everyone's cup of tea.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The problem is that it's deceptive and that the participation stats don't tell you how many people are enjoying it versus how many are enduring it because they have to for the relic or for highly desirable items. SE will interpret (or at least portray) it 100% as a sign that people are enjoying themselves and that they are justified to continue it in 6.0.

(Also, once again the highly sought-after female hairstyle is locked behind RNG in niche content that cannot be soloed and is likely to dry up over time.)

For the record, I have not tried it yet and I might even enjoy it. But the requirements, mettle loss and constant "running to stay still" of the treadmill are demotivating, and it's risky putting it in a place where people have to specifically engage with that content and not in some form of duty finder roulette.

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Not like that is anything new, it's basically what they did with Eureka.

It had the relic with a potential 1000 substats (as a comparison the weapon from O12s, the then "BiS weapon", had 605 combined substats) that you could completely customize. Sure it was a boring grind to change the stats but potentially getting 1k crit from your weapon was very attractive.

It had exclusive mounts (Ozma being the most desirable one I guess), hairstyles, emotes, minions and on top of that it had the 390 Elemental armor which not only had a rather distinctly unique design (well, you looked like a neon billboard) but was either partially or entirely BiS for most jobs.

So of course people slogged through Eureka to get their shiny items, not because they liked the content but because those items were very desirable and potentially very expensive.
At the end SE could pat themselves on the back and call it a win because so many people did Eureka, they "obviously" must've liked it.


I know, because I was one of the fools who did Eureka purely for the rewards. It wasn't the worst time of my life to just put on a 12 hour audiobook and mindlessly farm the fate train, but it wasn't any more engaging than running the same expert dungeon for the 100th time.

What Eureka however did not have was forced 24+ man content that you also need to farm on top of the fate grind. Baldesion Arsenal was entirely optional, the only benefit you got from it besides the mount and some glamour weapons was that your gear became better inside of Eureka.
So I don't particularly care how good or bad Delubrum is, it could be amazing and I could have the time of my life, but the sheer fact that it is tied to Bozja makes me ignore it entirely out of principle because I'm not gonna be another +1 statistic on their "Bozja is a success" list.

I had to solo heal it twice tonight, the second time as the only one in my party capable of rezzing, and it was honestly the most fun I've had with healing since 5.0 dropped. It's challenging but not impossible and I loved learning the dance for each and every fight. Sure the veneer will eventually wear off as I'm grinding for the hairstyle and the one run I did where there were a glut of healers available to all parties was decidedly a bit more mundane. But if all I got going forward were more of those chaotic parties like the two fun ones I got tonight, I'd be content.

But I also understand that that sort of situation isn't to everyone's tastes. So while I absolutely want to see more content like this and the Arsenal I don't blame anyone for feeling they fell a little short of the mark.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

My only real issue with it was not really understanding why I kept getting doom. I presume if you fail a mechanic they give you doom, but why not just kill you outright with the mechanic.

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It's actually more forgiving than that. When you fail a mechanic, you get one stack of (if I remember the debuff name right) "Impending Doom" which sticks around for 2 minutes. If you fail a second mechanic, you get a second stack of Impending Doom, which converts into Doom (and kills you). So it gives you a chance to fail a mechanic and recover, but if you fail a second mechanic too soon thereafter, boom. (And Doom is presumably so that it'll nuke a tank, not just do a bunch of damage to them.)

I feel like they're experimenting with this, honestly. It used to be that every time you failed a mechanic you took vuln stacks, but people just didn't care; the attitude was often "Eh, uptime is king, the healers will adjust" and then you had melee DPS collecting vuln stacks like Pokemon because it wasn't their problem, so who cared? The healers would just have to deal.

So this savage tier, mechanics inflict Damage Down when you fail them—making the consequences the problem of the one who failed the mechanics—but that has not been a popular decision in some quarters. I sort of half think this is testing the waters to see if people prefer something that gives you a grace period ("fine, you failed one mechanic... you're on probation, buster") and then just obliterates you when you fail a second one.

Admittedly, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but that opinion is not necessarily universal; I actually am really enjoying Delubrum Reginae, and I know plenty of others in my social circle who are having a blast as well. Some of the mechanics are new favorites of mine; I'm particularly fond of a certain game of Hot and Cold, but Marching Orders is also great. I'm really enjoying seeing some creative new mechanics. I cannot wait to find a group to try running the savage mode with. It'll be a complete and utter disaster with the bodies scattered everywhere, and I cannot wait.

I like the mechanics, but I feel like the bosses took way too long to kill even on the ones where few people were dying.

It could just be due to people not taking advantage of lost actions, though.

I enjoyed the fights in it immensely. Losing 60k mettle because of 10 deaths as a brand new player and one wipe due to group not knowing about an enrage mechanic wasn't as fun. Hoping it gets better from there. I won't be actually farming it until I get my 36 HW and SB raids out of the way, though. No point in wasting runs.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

There's a weekly quest thats gives 3 gold coins for a DR run, you can trade those in for the Judge Armor, ilv510 with full meld slots.

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510 is pretty outdated already and you need a full set of augmented bozja gear as well and we all know how rarely the bozjan update items drop (beside the fact that still nobody is doing Castrum these days).

I saw my best friend doing it yesterday and I don't want to put a single foot inside that raid. And that's really disappointing because it looks great and all. But loosing like 50k points in the run (at best) ? No way. That mechanic really sucks. Remove it right away, at least in the raids... I don't even understand why it's been validated by the devteam...

I lost around 7-10k mettle on the first run. Ouch me xD. Next time as a blue dps to avoid dying

I had a lot of fun, i wish more raids had this level of difficulty and creativity. Rip 4k mettle but it was worthwhile...jus tneed to find out what my coins are for now

rewards based on performance it seems, thats a very good idea. encourages people to do more

that being the case, its very hard to see whats going on in certain mechanics due to the distance and clutter. (the hot/cold arrows on the 2nd to last boss) in particular are easy to miss and get instantly killed as a result

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

that being the case, its very hard to see whats going on in certain mechanics due to the distance and clutter. (the hot/cold arrows on the 2nd to last boss) in particular are easy to miss and get instantly killed as a result

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Yeah, first time I just died because I have not seen the mechanic at all. Next time I have seen the ice and fire things, so I positioned myself but then the ice switched lanes and I died again. The third time I finally have seen the arrows.

I am kind of a slow learner I guess, lost 80k mettle in that first clear and have no intention to ever set foot inside again with such huge penalties.

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Originally Posted by Tint

I am kind of a slow learner I guess, lost 80k mettle in that first clear and have no intention to ever set foot inside again with such huge penalties.

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I can feel you.
Lost about 70-80k yesterday.
The fights are awesome, but rewards are low. The duty is really fun and all, but why should anyone run it more than 1-3 times? D:

The only thing I don't like is that it takes waaaaay too long to clear it. I think it takes like an hour on average on ever run I did which is ridiculous for farming content like this.

The only thing I don't like is that the bosses feel like sponges especially if you have like a party with too many healers or tanks but that is probably attributed to people not utilising their lost actions well too.

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Originally Posted by Tinibou

I saw my best friend doing it yesterday and I don't want to put a single foot inside that raid. And that's really disappointing because it looks great and all. But loosing like 50k points in the run (at best) ? No way. That mechanic really sucks. Remove it right away, at least in the raids... I don't even understand why it's been validated by the devteam...

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I understand it. It’s theoretically a way to keep people in bozja. So you do the raid then you farm bozja to get the mettle back rinse and repeat.

Serves the purpose of keeping the zone busy and ‘gating’ your progress on the raid somewhat to keep you active.

I don’t particularly like it though.

My main problem is the amount of work needed for just ONE relic. Many of us love to do multiple relics for different jobs and in my case for alts as well. Going to have to seriously scale back expectations for the amount of content I'm going to be willing to do and this isn't even the final relic stage.

Relative to the raid given you need 15 for the last phase of this one for just one relic (doubt many will go POTD), the raid will be busy for quite some time.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I enjoyed the fights in it immensely. Losing 60k mettle because of 10 deaths as a brand new player and one wipe due to group not knowing about an enrage mechanic wasn't as fun. Hoping it gets better from there. I won't be actually farming it until I get my 36 HW and SB raids out of the way, though. No point in wasting runs.

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Hmm I only lost 500 mettle per death

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Hmm I only lost 500 mettle per death

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It scales with your rank. Proportionally it's roughly an equal % of your mettle as per your rank.
Basically it doesn't matter how much mettle it displays, if you're rank 10 or rank 14, it will take roughly the same amount of Skirmishes and CE's to rank up, and you lose the same portion of your mettle when you die.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Hmm I only lost 500 mettle per death

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Cause it depends on your rank in bozja, higher rank players lose more mettle per death.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I enjoyed the fights in it immensely. Losing 60k mettle because of 10 deaths as a brand new player and one wipe due to group not knowing about an enrage mechanic wasn't as fun. Hoping it gets better from there. I won't be actually farming it until I get my 36 HW and SB raids out of the way, though. No point in wasting runs.

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Everyone happy with it keeps talking how "it's finally challenging content that pushes players into learning", but forget that the bold will always be an issue because this is a raid that is really deep into a game that until now never bothered to demand anywhere near as much from the average player. Those players won't try to learn because unless they're serious raiders then 95% of their pve experience is facerolling. They will just A) Complain Bozja raids are too difficult and B) Stop trying to clear or only clear once.
You can't just hold the player's hand all the time then all of sudden let go and push them into a snake pit going "learn!!"
And Bozja itself, outside the two raids, isn't difficult or complex at all. It's easy enough that casuals will rank up then get frustrated at the spike in difficulty.

God I don't even dislike Delubrum as a concept, and there are some legitimately good fights to be found in there. The problem is that it's locked behind a wall balls deep into Bozja and the punishments for dying are absolutely horrific, it's a mettle meat grinder.

There is a universe where you can absolutely Q into Delubrum with nothing but DPS, of which 16 aren't using their lost actions, and you just have to figure out what to do on your own. I think that's not very good design; there's way too much volatility in how these runs can go.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Everyone happy with it keeps talking how "it's finally challenging content that pushes players into learning", but forget that the bold will always be an issue because this is a raid that is really deep into a game that until now never bothered to demand anywhere near as much from the average player. Those players won't try to learn because unless they're serious raiders then 95% of their pve experience is facerolling. They will just A) Complain Bozja raids are too difficult and B) Stop trying to clear or only clear once.
You can't just hold the player's hand all the time then all of sudden let go and push them into a snake pit going "learn!!"
And Bozja itself, outside the two raids, isn't difficult or complex at all. It's easy enough that casuals will rank up then get frustrated at the spike in difficulty.

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I welcome the difficulty. I LOATHE punishing people for failure. Reminds of of the new heart feature on duolingo. Nothing like kicking someone out of the classroom for asking the wrong question!

It's especially frustrating that you can't control composition. They just need to add a que for it.

Custom stats were optional in Pyros for relic progression to Hydatos. Anyone know what the stats are for the relics pre custom stat adjustments and whether or not this step is in fact optional.

I also suspect picking the stats will be an RNG based system maybe similar to what we had to do in Pyros.

Quest: A New Path of Resistance

Requires: 15x Timeworn artifacts
Available from: Delubrum Reginae OR Palace of the Dead.

The last stage will allow you to pick the stats of your weapon. Modifying stats after you finish the weapon requires Aetherial Sealant, which costs 100 poetics.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I welcome the difficulty. I LOATHE punishing people for failure. Reminds of of the new heart feature on duolingo. Nothing like kicking someone out of the classroom for asking the wrong question!

It's especially frustrating that you can't control composition. They just need to add a que for it.

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yeah but mettle doesnt even matter after you unlocked savage only need to be rank 15 with capped mettle to unlock it not to attempt it

at this stage mettle doesnt mean much

I come from FFXI where a death cost you exp and enough exp loss cost you levels. So, losing mettle is nothing new for SE. They brought it back in Eureka and not at all surprised it's a thing in Bozja and DR.

As for the raid itself, I loved it. I'm a very anxious raider. I really do hate doing new raid content without a friend in VC with me. (Call me a snowflake, or whatever, I don't care.) But none of my friends are Rank 10 and able to unlock this raid, and I am desperate for the new hairstyle. So I went in on my own. I'm a slow learner, but by my 7th run I was doing the fights with no deaths in most cases. And the times I did die, I was kicking myself because I KNEW the mechanic, I just mixed something up and paid the price.

I'm glad they added the quest to incentivize going back in weekly. Hopefully the hairstyle, mount, and any other rare drops will keep people coming back (along with the silver coins). I can't say for sure, but I hope so. Either way, I love the content, and can't wait to get back in there tonight after work.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

It scales with your rank. Proportionally it's roughly an equal % of your mettle as per your rank.
Basically it doesn't matter how much mettle it displays, if you're rank 10 or rank 14, it will take roughly the same amount of Skirmishes and CE's to rank up, and you lose the same portion of your mettle when you die.

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Ty 10chars

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I welcome the difficulty. I LOATHE punishing people for failure. Reminds of of the new heart feature on duolingo. Nothing like kicking someone out of the classroom for asking the wrong question!

It's especially frustrating that you can't control composition. They just need to add a que for it.

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I had English language teacher in the middle school like that who punished for typos and wrong answers. Correct answer gave you one point, typo gave you minus half point and wrong answer gave you a negative point. English is not my native even.

Other teachers did not have unfair system like that xD

It's just lazy design.

Instead of providing quality rewards to work towards they're trying to keep this place alive with an endless cycle of farming lost mettle. Do FATES and CE's to farm mettle; then do Castrum/Debulum to lose it all; then do FATES and CE's to farm it back up; etc. I probably couldn't come up with a less satisfying, less rewarding progression cycle if I tried.

Now I've gotta panic push through this new content as fast as possible within the next few days or I may as well just delete my relics. Fun. I definitely won't be coming back once my forced run through this glorified mettle sink is done.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

The problem really isn't challenge. The problem with Castrum was that there was absolute no reason to run it after the first time you've cleared it; unless you find losing large amounts of mettle in very little time for no reason entertaining.

Since it's SE I'm guessing they learned nothing from Castrum and this is more of the same; and even the people talking about how great it is to have challenging content won't be running it anymore a few weeks from now, because they're all talk; they like the challenge ONLY because they know that it'll be impossible to clear for everyone who comes in late. They'll have what they wanted, and it'll feel extra special now that they know everyone else is effectively excluded because the content is dead.

This kind of crap is why I really don't like MMOs. Hell, it's why most people don't like MMOs. If that's what this game becomes I have no issue bailing. Normally I wouldn't care too much for 1 piece of endgame content, but them tying the relic to this garbage is really annoying.

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Conversely, they'll have ran the content several times and now want to move on. No matter how much some of us may praise a piece of content, there's only so many times you can partake in anything before the novelty starts to wane. If you come in late, that isn't our problem nor does it make the content any less challenging or fun. That's the equivalent of complaining you missed out on all the hype when a new game releases.

As for the OP. I'm not a huge fan of the mettle loss primarily because neither Castrum or DR reward you with any upon completion. I also just dislike that sort of system since it feels like an arbitrary way to stretch out content longevity. Doom, however, is perfectly fine. In fact, I welcome it since I'd otherwise ignore a good chunk of mechanics like I do in Eden's Promise. Speaking of those mechanics, I love them. Seriously. DR is the first Alliance raid we've had since Orbonne that actually felt challenging. And even Orbonne was nowhere near the mess Weeping City once was.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Conversely, they'll have ran the content several times and now want to move on. No matter how much some of us may praise a piece of content, there's only so many times you can partake in anything before the novelty starts to wane. If you come in late, that isn't our problem nor does it make the content any less challenging or fun. That's the equivalent of complaining you missed out on all the hype when a new game releases.

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You move on because the content isn't fun or rewarding; if it was either of those things people would stick with it beyond a few runs. Look at MSQ; the novelty for that wore off years ago but most players still run it frequently today. There's no risk of those instances dying at any point in this game's future, while DR released yesterday and could very easily be dead as early as next week.

I'm not saying you're obligated to keep running it to help other players get their clears, but there's no reason to lie to yourself. It's not fun or rewarding, and the people pretending it is will stop running it just as fast as the people who are being honest.

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Originally Posted by MeiraStarborne

I come from FFXI where a death cost you exp and enough exp loss cost you levels. So, losing mettle is nothing new for SE. They brought it back in Eureka and not at all surprised it's a thing in Bozja and DR.

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I am playing FF14 not 11 and given the population sizes it is clear what American players prefer. Potentially giving up weeks of Mettle gain in Bozdja because I want to try Savage is never going to happen for me atleast. I'll just watch SFIA and them do it and accept I will never do this content on Savage. Fixing these issues is literally as easy as getting rid of the mettle loss upon death.

To fix Castrum just add it to the Main Scenario queue and get rid of this goofy fate approach they have to it. I am not sure why Square Enix can be such geniuses in designing some content then embrace completely failed design decisions that never work in North America. All it tells me is that FF14 is here to bring in revenue and keep the game alive in Japan. I saw it with NCSoft not caring what happened to their North American playerbase as long as the Korean playerbase was happy and this reminds me of that design thinking.

It is completely failed time and time again. I do not have all day to refarm grindy content because of extreme mettle losses in new content. The opinion is clear in this thread and multiple other threads plus in game chatter that people do not like the mettle loss in this content and will avoid it after they see it once. What is sad is if they got rid of the mettle loss I would do this content for fun because I actually like the boss fights.

Eureka, and by extension Bozja, were designed to emulate some of the aspects of XI though, so that's a valid point.
This isn't the main game, so it doesn't have to cater to everyone's tastes. Rather it's purpose is to offer an alternative form of content.

Castrum isn't main scenario so I don't see why you'd add it to that. Its nowhere near as long either.

If you don't want to lose mettle, grind to 15 and unlock Savage Delubrum before you attempt any more Castrum or Delubrum.
Once you've hit rank 15 and unlocked Savage your mettle doesn't matter. (unless the last update in 5.55 requires it)

I really enjoyed my first time there and I'll do it pretty often just because it's refreshing and punitive at the same time. I'm so tired of dull content with 0 threat, and I hope SE will add the doom mechanic in their next content.
Also, it's pretty fast to grind the mettle loss back.

Mettle isn't experience and I don't really understand why people care when they lose it. Like, OK, it can set you back on a couple other specific things if you're not already 15 with the unlocks done, but you still need memories for your relic right? Sounds like you have an excuse to do some skirmish/CE anyway to get that mettle back.

You know it occurs to me that the doom mechanics might be an attempt to get people to bring an essence other than platebringer for once since extra defensive stats doesn't save you, and oh my god all of the sudden I want every boss to have doom.

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Originally Posted by TurtlesAWD

Mettle isn't experience and I don't really understand why people care when they lose it. Like, OK, it can set you back on a couple other specific things if you're not already 15 with the unlocks done, but you still need memories for your relic right? Sounds like you have an excuse to do some skirmish/CE anyway to get that mettle back.

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People are already to greedy to pop a dmg/def boosting potion. DR is totally fine imo, its your average Ivalice/Nier raid, just that its new with a doom mechanic tied to it. Play properly and you wont die.

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Originally Posted by TurtlesAWD

Mettle isn't experience and I don't really understand why people care when they lose it. Like, OK, it can set you back on a couple other specific things if you're not already 15 with the unlocks done, but you still need memories for your relic right? Sounds like you have an excuse to do some skirmish/CE anyway to get that mettle back.

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Yeah people complaining about meddle loss really don't get it.

It's not even much at level 15, and if you are not going to be doing savage than why do you care if you are level 15 and lost some? People doing savage are going to drop to 0 meddle in a day or so.

Second you should know the mechanics after a run that it should be trivial from that point on. Third, a CE or two puts one back at where they were anyway.

I've done 50 castrum completions and not once complained about meddle loss. Overrated topic for sure.

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Originally Posted by technole

Yeah people complaining about meddle loss really don't get it.

It's not even much at level 15, and if you are not going to be doing savage than why do you care if you are level 15 and lost some? People doing savage are going to drop to 0 meddle in a day or so.

Second you should know the mechanics after a run that it should be trivial from that point on. Third, a CE or two puts one back at where they were anyway.

I've done 50 castrum completions and not once complained about meddle loss. Overrated topic for sure.

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This is only a valid point if we know for a fact that they won't be adding more resistance ranks or mettle requirements at ANY point before Bozja and the relic are finished.