Positionals

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Originally Posted by Cetek14

From my point of view positionals are pure annoyance. Ranged jobs can move freely, and often output higher damage per second, while melees are tied to very tight spot. Most of the time you are forced to ignore them, because newer fights are more "action combat" focused, so you can't just stand wherever you want.
For me they can be removed without changing rotation of any melee job. Only some potency changes would be required.

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If a ranged physical job is out dpsing you as a melee, there's more wrong with what you're doing than just positionals.

I'm for MORE positionals.
Melee DPS (tanks included) have the ability to move around their target within melee range generally at will without much consequence.
Back when they all had positionals and ranged had sweet spots, it was a lot more strategic at times.

But alas, they keep dumbing the game down for multiplicities sake. The game will be a one button clicker by the end :<

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

If a ranged physical job is out dpsing you as a melee, there's more wrong with what you're doing than just positionals.

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I don't remember it quite well, but I believe someone tried to measure their DPS striking a dummy only on the frontside as a DRG.
The DPS difference was about 500 if I remember well, but that was during the beginning of the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I'm for MORE positionals [...] (tanks included)

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You wouldn't be worried about tanks spinning the boss in order to hit those positionals?

As someone who avoids melee jobs at all costs (I'm just leveling them to get the amaro mount) I don't want positionals to go away. I remember leveling DRG, it was the most boring thing I've ever done. When I got a skill with a positional (at lv...50? 45? The pink/purple skill that sounds like a chicken. I don't know how to play dragoon...) it actually got a bit more fun. It was something to pay attention to. Don't remove positionals :(

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

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I read your stuff, but it´s more elitism talk than anything else.

What do you expect from a "casual" game where classes getting dumb´d down? To cater the top 10%?
And what is with the other 89% on ff.logs? Why do they exist, if everything is so easy and every player is so smart and do tons of 90%+ logruns each week? Not all of them are gear-related.

You can talk from yourself, maybe your friends, but this game has millions of players and there are more bad / casual players than those who can read their skills and adjust to boss mechanics. Even surviving as phys. range is way easier than as a melee or caster. I don´t know what´s up with your experience, but i still meet samurais with better gear and they have way less damage on E11s than i have on my monk. And i know poeple from my old guild which were not even able to perform well in a dungeon. I mean... DUNGEONS... half afk content with 2 times aoe spam between the bosses.

And about the classes... above average players or dps hunter will mostly play meta. It´s the same in every game. For example i have rarely seen blackmage on E5-8s in the pf, now they´re everywhere. The good thing about this game is, that the subclasses are well balanced in their own category. Phys. range on their side are the most forgivable classes at any time and they can be played in EVERY content / tier easily as long as this game keeps running.

Just turn off ACT and you wouldn´t even mention a difference. Every class is able to beat the endgame and some of them (phys. range) have an easier life to do that. It´s a fact.


EDIT: Check out the top players in average. The gap is like 2000 dps. Sounds a lot yes, but the most players are NOT able to reach such statistics with a melee or caster, especially not without a decent party. But a lot will be able to come near to this dps with phys. range classes even in random parties. (And this 2000dps more are not needed to beat the bosses anyway.)

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

I read your stuff, but it´s more elitism talk than anything else.

What do you expect from a "casual" game where classes getting dumb´d down? To cater the top 10%?
And what is with the other 89% on ff.logs? Why do they exist, if everything is so easy and every player is so smart and do tons of 90%+ logruns each week? Not all of them are gear-related.

You can talk from yourself, maybe your friends, but this game has millions of players and there are more bad / casual players than those who can read their skills and adjust to boss mechanics. Even surviving as phys. range is way easier than as a melee or caster. I don´t know what´s up with your experience, but i still meet samurais with better gear and they have way less damage on E11s than i have on my monk. And i know poeple from my old guild which were not even able to perform well in a dungeon. I mean... DUNGEONS... half afk content with 2 times aoe spam between the bosses.

And about the classes... above average players or dps hunter will mostly play meta. It´s the same in every game. For example i have rarely seen blackmage on E5-8s in the pf, now they´re everywhere. The good thing about this game is, that the subclasses are well balanced in their own category. Phys. range on their side are the most forgivable classes at any time and they can be played in EVERY content / tier easily as long as this game keeps running.

Just turn off ACT and you wouldn´t even mention a difference. Every class is able to beat the endgame and some of them (phys. range) have an easier life to do that. It´s a fact.


EDIT: Check out the top players in average. The gap is like 2000 dps. Sounds a lot yes, but the most players are NOT able to reach such statistics with a melee or caster, especially not without a decent party. But a lot will be able to come near to this dps with phys. range classes even in random parties. (And this 2000dps more are not needed to beat the bosses anyway.)

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Gonna outright say... you’re wrong. The gap between ranged and the rest is too large and I honestly cannot be bothered to explain why because if you can’t see the issues then I can’t be bothered to discuss it. It’s been discussed to death on multiple threads and there’s a tiny % of people who think ranged are ok due to being “easy to play” or “have no uptime/cast bars/positionals” well, please do some research

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

I read your stuff, but it´s more elitism talk than anything else.

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I don't deny that there is more casual players but I feel that you are mixing things there. The other 89% are not only casuals. Everyone makes mistakes, gets a damage down or dies, nobody is perfect.

For Casuals, DPS don't matter much. As week passes, they'll get gear that'll grant them more DPS and HP, making the savages easier and accessible.
If we still follow your logic, then a high skilled player that plays a ranged because they have an affitiny towards the job should be gutted because the player who dies, suffer from Damage down, wants to play Ice Mage or don't want to commit to learn the basics feels that it's easier to play ranged? You don't ask a runner to slowdown in a race because he has longer legs.

And don't worry about ACT, I don't care much about my own DPS, I care about how well I do my job and what I can bring to the group.
Without such tools, you can still feel the difference. I still remember about a friend who switched from DNC to DRG as we were on E3S enrage and it went in a go. I can still remember about the double ranged comp hitting enrage.
Again, ranged are not asking for top DPS, just to be as usefull to the group as RDM/SMN for example.

Man, I don't aim to sound like an elitist. I just want to be usefull and play the jobs I love without downsides. I don't want to get in a PF, hit the enrage and tell myself "If I was a Samurai main, we would've passed this fight".
What's my purpose today? To bring a 1% stats to everyone else.

Anyway, that's not the topic there.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I don't deny that there is more casual players but I feel that you are mixing things there. The other 89% are not only casuals. Everyone makes mistakes, gets a damage down or dies, nobody is perfect.

For Casuals, DPS don't matter much. As week passes, they'll get gear that'll grant them more DPS and HP, making the savages easier and accessible.
If we still follow your logic, then a high skilled player that plays a ranged because they have an affitiny towards the job should be gutted because the player who dies, suffer from Damage down, wants to play Ice Mage or don't want to commit to learn the basics feels that it's easier to play ranged? You don't ask a runner to slowdown in a race because he has longer legs.

And don't worry about ACT, I don't care much about my own DPS, I care about how well I do my job and what I can bring to the group.
Without such tools, you can still feel the difference. I still remember about a friend who switched from DNC to DRG as we were on E3S enrage and it went in a go. I can still remember about the double ranged comp hitting enrage.
Again, ranged are not asking for top DPS, just to be as usefull to the group as RDM/SMN for example.

Man, I don't aim to sound like an elitist. I just want to be usefull and play the jobs I love without downsides. I don't want to get in a PF, hit the enrage and tell myself "If I was a Samurai main, we would've passed this fight".
What's my purpose today? To bring a 1% stats to everyone else.

Anyway, that's not the topic there.

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I mean just switching to a sam doesn’t mean you’ll do better lol. Playing what you know at top level and just being average is two different things completely. Really the fight design IN savage this expac and ultimate are two different animals. Phys ranged isn’t cut from anything. They’ve just been given the role that’s has no downside to moving or doing mechs. Saying that should do around the same ballpark as something that takes much more planning is kind of pepega. Also arguing top end numbers against one another is just as pepega. I ran double ranged phys in month one TEA and we cleared 20+ times with it.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

I mean just switching to a sam doesn’t mean you’ll do better lol. Playing what you know at top level and just being average is two different things completely. Really the fight design IN savage this expac and ultimate are two different animals. Phys ranged isn’t cut from anything. They’ve just been given the role that’s has no downside to moving or doing mechs. Saying that should do around the same ballpark as something that takes much more planning is kind of pepega. Also arguing top end numbers against one another is just as pepega. I ran double ranged phys in month one TEA and we cleared 20+ times with it.

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You probably missed some episodes, here and there. Especially the part that outperforming a ranged on equal gear is far from difficult. Doing the minimal will be enough.
Or that DPS isn't the only problem in ranged's current state.

As you said, design in ultimate and savages are completely different, Ultimate DPS check isn't really hard, it's way heavier mechanic wise. Some claims that it's a joke.
And since you want to pick TEA as an example, during many mechanics, the boss is not targetable at all. Being a ranged, melee or caster has little impact in there. And during the first two phase, the least you move the better.

Comparing early savage DPS check and Ultimate DPS check, that's pepega.

EDIT: Anyway, mind if we can go back to the initial discussion about positionnals?
I'll gladly answer, but there's plenty of ranged subject to debate about it.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

Gonna outright say... you’re wrong.

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I know the threads, but how can i or the tiny % be wrong?

The handful of players here doesn´t representate the whole playerbase and SE probably doesn´t look at fflogs, they don´t even want it to be a thing. But this is the only argument from the players.
SE has their own balancing, logs and thoughts. That they´re pretty much ignore that "issue" for so long should say enough. They´ve their plans and that phys. range are in the spot where they are, seems to be a thing because of the said arguments.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I just want to be usefull and play the jobs I love without downsides. I don't want to get in a PF, hit the enrage and tell myself "If I was a Samurai main, we would've passed this fight".

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As i said before, yes, Sam should get a nerf. But overall he brings nothing but dps to the party. And in your example, maybe someone died? Maybe someone failed his rotation? Whatever... It´s possible to kill each boss with the needed itemlevel, but everything have to be nearly perfect. If that´s not the case, a Samurai won´t help you out there. Otherwise, just get better gear.

And you can be a casual and still care for DPS and endgame content. I know a bunch of them, but they´ll probably never beat the last tier boss, just because time / motivation or gameknowledge are missing. But they can press 123 and moving to a marker. Just saying, i know an "hmmmm" samurai who was able to clear E5-7s. She had top gear next to the chest. I outperformed her with ishgardian gear + 2-3 edencore sets and the relic weapon before bodzja arrived with my own Samurai. But yeah, she cleared E5-7s with their static and was top dps there. However this was possible...
She is playing dancer now and guess what? She is 1000x better than before. She dies way less, has an "ok" parse for the beginning and brings tons of buffs to the new 80-90% sam in the static. Already the fact that she fails in 1/10 fights and not like before ~9/10 times with less damage as you would expect from a Sam says enough about phys. range classes and the difficulty scaling.

Yes it´s not the topic here. I could go to any range thread and tell you the same others did there and i did here. The freedom, medigation and groupbuffs from phys. ranges weight high when we talk about balancing.

EDIT: Anything can fk up the damage of casters and melees. Just take OP´s example about the boss aoe. The game puts them way more under pressure than phys. range chars. The current 2000dps difference is more like a "safezone" for them to beat the encounter. Phys. range can do what they want as long as they play the mechanics and their rotation. You don´t have to time anything and you can even prepare for the incoming stuff easily.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Again, ranged are not asking for top DPS, just to be as usefull to the group as RDM/SMN for example.

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Good players in any job are more valuable than meta jobs are in a vacuum. As long as all the roles are filled, anyone can clear anything provided that they play well. You are probably more useful playing a DNC or BRD in a raid than I would be bringing MNK or SAM because in all likelihood, you're the better player. You play enough to see that higher end content and push that content line. I do not.

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

Without something along these lines, you would have a pair of jobs that GREATLY minimize the risks of death thanks to their mobility (especially DNC), while still offering more than enough output to be deemed "useful" by someone who is more worried about their numbers than others are. What then would be the point of taking a melee job into ANY new content, beyond simple preference? And honestly, preference only goes so far. Despite constant complaints about how hard MNK is to play (positionals, greased lightning, idontlikething), the job saw a surprising burst of activity early into ShB when it briefly challenged BLM for top slot. Not many stuck around, I guess.

Melee DPS must place themselves in close proximity to the enemy, regularly unleashing combos efficiently to maintain unique class mechanics, all of which face potential disruption whenever the boss does anything that denies them the ability to attack, or forces them to move away. In addition to this, they have positionals (MNK more than any other) that require moving in a specific way to get the most out of certain attacks OR use shared DPS abilities to negate those positional requirements temporarily. The mixture of limited range, limited mobility, and positionals, combined with fight mechanics, effectively places a lot more stress on the player that is trying to maximize their performance. The reward for doing so is excellent output. Failure either means reduced output, or zero output (death).

You can disagree with this as much as you want. The bottom line, however, is that Ranged DPS can still do the job in any piece of content in the game right now with less mechanical risk to the player compared to Melee DPS. If players chose to play something more demanding, the reward should be greater than for jobs with less of a demand on the player IF they play well. To demand more for less is just being greedy.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

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Haha I remember them giving BRD castbars...
I'm glad they moved away from that. I'd much rather ranged take the hit to DPS than inhibit their play.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

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They could always give them cast times again. NGL i kinda miss it but then thats what casters are for :D. though i would not mind them making a caster that uses like a rifle or something just to give the casters a little different feeling weapon to them. Could even make it so it can auto at a range but their casted skills have lower potency for that reason or even make it a skill where they can auto for a certain amount of time.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

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Positionnals and casting goes hand in hand, so I'll give in.

That's quite the headhache.
The ranged community is split about the casting debate.

On one hand, you have the BRD job, not designed for casts.
On the other hand, you have MCH that was designed with casts (Ammos, RapidFire...).
Then DNC was strapped onto the ranged role.

I think we're way past the point where adding casts for the whole role can be considered. Adding cast to one or two jobs could be considered but I feel like it would be a mess.
You could have casts on MCH but nothing on BRD.

IMO, the best option there should be to give a variable amount of casts to the jobs.
MCH would have more casts, DNC the least and BRD in-between. I kind of miss casting too, since SB, Machinist feels like "floating around".

Or to add a new type of cast, that does extra damage if you complete the cast. Some sort of "aiming".
Interrupting the cast shots a GCD at 100 potency.
Completing the cast shots a GCD at 110 potency.
For example.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

IMO, the best option there should be to give a variable amount of casts to the jobs.
MCH would have more casts, DNC the least and BRD in-between. I kind of miss casting too, since SB, Machinist feels like "floating around".

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There is a reason why there are no casts anymore and i personally think it´s good that way. It just doesn´t fit phys. range classes. Maybe 1 cast like Midare for the MCH, but not more.
Instead of going the "easy" way, SE should give those classes a soul if you really want them to compete with others in dps.

- Dancer for example could have limited range and different dances you´ve to remember and play by yourself like ninjutsu. Not just 123 or the same dance with different highlighted buttons. Such dance-moves could have different buffs like "added dot effect, more damage, max. range increase from 8 to 15m", whatever.... such stuff with an internal cooldown, so the player have to adjust with them to the mechanics, skill-problem solved. Of course it´s not that big deal if you get used to it, but it´s something you´ve to remember, you´ve to adjust with the range dance and it fits the class.

- MCH could work with positionals. Not himself, but the robot. Let the robot attack from behind for 5 hits will load his attacks. If it´s done, it´ll grant a 15s damage buff for him, if he attacks the boss from the side. (or other way round). Ofcourse the player needs to have a look at the buff and have to adjust the robot with "from the side, from behind" skills. The robot will stay for a minute and has 45s cooldown or something.

- Sounds pretty dumb, but BRD could actually collect instruments spawning in a 5m radius around him for 10s. If you´ve collected 3 in a special order, you can unleash an soundwave with X damage and one of your menuet/ballad, whatever will be activated. Not just "click the button and enjoy" as it is right now.

Just brainstorming, but anything is better than just cast times. Being "free" fits the jobs well, they just need a soul / something to take care about. But hey, it´s FF14... all cool or variable stuff is getting dumb´d down e.g. astro cards or has a highlighted rotation.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Or to add a new type of cast, that does extra damage if you complete the cast. Some sort of "aiming".

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Ppl would just spam it if it´s too powerful or don´t use it when it´s not. And having some sort of PLD rotation or "just another button" is määäh...


For real, SE just needs to stop to make everything too simple. Give us TP, armor/magic penetration and other stuff back, so they can do much more with any class.

I don't mind positionals as a mechanic, I really think it adds something more engaging, however, It's really frustrating when tanks keep rotating the boss way too much - sometimes, even just a small rotation can make you miss a positional. True North is there, yeah, but it doesn't help you when the tank moves the boss right before you hit your attack.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I don't mind positionals as a mechanic, I really think it adds something more engaging, however, It's really frustrating when tanks keep rotating the boss way too much - sometimes, even just a small rotation can make you miss a positional. True North is there, yeah, but it doesn't help you when the tank moves the boss right before you hit your attack.

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It's even more frustrating when you outright die because somebody runs into you during a spread AoE mechanic, but that's hardly a reason to remove all spread mechanics.

Making sure DPS can do their jobs comfortably is a big part of what the tank role in mmos is about. They've already been stripped of most of their personal impact and skill expression, there should be more reasons added to position properly in fights, not less. The entire point of trinity system is that every role has to perform in order for others to work right - you can't just remove anything that requires cooperation in a co-op game, just because "other people making mistakes is inconvenient to me". This shouldn't even be taken into consideration honestly.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

You wouldn't be worried about tanks spinning the boss in order to hit those positionals?

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There was a time when Rage of Halone had a rear potency bonus.
While things have changed a lot since then there could be ways of implementing it. Only applicable out of tank stance, or such.

Even though I know it'll never happen, a tank can dream

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

You probably missed some episodes, here and there. Especially the part that outperforming a ranged on equal gear is far from difficult. Doing the minimal will be enough.
Or that DPS isn't the only problem in ranged's current state.

As you said, design in ultimate and savages are completely different, Ultimate DPS check isn't really hard, it's way heavier mechanic wise. Some claims that it's a joke.
And since you want to pick TEA as an example, during many mechanics, the boss is not targetable at all. Being a ranged, melee or caster has little impact in there. And during the first two phase, the least you move the better.

Comparing early savage DPS check and Ultimate DPS check, that's pepega.

EDIT: Anyway, mind if we can go back to the initial discussion about positionnals?
I'll gladly answer, but there's plenty of ranged subject to debate about it.

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You do perfect alex is an actual check right? And the first two phases favors a class like bard(starting to think you may be just regurgitating guide knowledge since you know nothing of actual substance...so careful throwing pepega around when that’s just a smoothbrain move). Running double phys ranged on perfect Alex is probably on release the very hardest check in the game. Comparing current TEA is like comparing savage to echo/pre-echo. It’s a joke now that gear and food/pots have made it much easier the first 3 phases. Again, your actual knowledge is laughable
SO do be careful going that route.

The convo has shifted because removing positionals is a troll topic at best. It’s the same as greeding casts to improve dps. Take the chances to nail them and get rewarded. There a reason you think discussing removing them warrants more talk? Cuz actually sadge if so.

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Originally Posted by Caitsithhh

You do perfect alex is an actual check right? And the first two phases favors a class like bard(starting to think you may be just regurgitating guide knowledge since you know nothing of actual substance...so careful throwing pepega around when that’s just a smoothbrain move). Running double phys ranged on perfect Alex is probably on release the very hardest check in the game. Comparing current TEA is like comparing savage to echo/pre-echo. It’s a joke now that gear and food/pots have made it much easier the first 3 phases. Again, your actual knowledge is laughable
SO do be careful going that route.

The convo has shifted because removing positionals is a troll topic at best. It’s the same as greeding casts to improve dps. Take the chances to nail them and get rewarded. There a reason you think discussing removing them warrants more talk? Cuz actually sadge if so.

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You’re welcome to prove you’re not just copypasta btw!

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Originally Posted by Satarn

It's even more frustrating when you outright die because somebody runs into you during a spread AoE mechanic, but that's hardly a reason to remove all spread mechanics.

Making sure DPS can do their jobs comfortably is a big part of what the tank role in mmos is about. They've already been stripped of most of their personal impact and skill expression, there should be more reasons added to position properly in fights, not less. The entire point of trinity system is that every role has to perform in order for others to work right - you can't just remove anything that requires cooperation in a co-op game, just because "other people making mistakes is inconvenient to me". This shouldn't even be taken into consideration honestly.

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Yeah, I agree with that point of view. It's just that gets a bit frustrating at some point to play a positionals-based job.

I'm complaining but it's really not the design's fault, but you getting teamed with a tank that just doesn't care about MNK, DRG, etc... I just stopped to run random content with monk altogether because of this frustration.

Simplifying the game's mechanics by removing positional skills is a bad idea. If SE were to do that, the uproar would be either just as bad or worse than the dumbing down of Tank and Healer jobs in this expansion. I say that because most of the player base plays DPS jobs.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Yeah, I agree with that point of view. It's just that gets a bit frustrating at some point to play a positionals-based job.

I'm complaining but it's really not the design's fault, but you getting teamed with a tank that just doesn't care about MNK, DRG, etc... I just stopped to run random content with monk altogether because of this frustration.

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You see, this is where I have a tough time understanding why anyone complained about Monk's positionals prior to the latest patch. We had the ability to ignore positionals for lengthy periods of time thanks to True North and the old Earth's Reply, to the point where SE NERFED those two abilities so that we would engage with positionals MORE.

It has never been very hard to land positionals, full stop. The game provides visual cues that tell us if we're at a target's rear OR their flank, and in optimal situations you're not even moving that far. I'm sorry you've come across some legitimately terrible tank players, but if we adjust everything based on player's ability to mess with someone else, we may as well remove Rescue, Taunt, and Shirk from the game too. Hell, just remove aggro from the game too, and make it so that enemies target tanks first, then DPS, then healers.

If the complaints about positionals are centered around dungeons and large pulls, then honestly they make even less sense. With Shadowbringers, Monks got a full AOE rotation that should be getting spammed like mad if there are at least three targets or more. There is little reason to worry about losing DPS due to missing positionals in the vast majority of content outside of bosses.

If nothing else, I think this says a lot about some very basic problems with FF14's dungeon design: They're theme parks that all inevitable degenerate down to "Pull to the wall, AOE the group, single target the stragglers." I don't think this is actually fixable, though, because that's how the game has been for so long. If they actually made fights leading up to the bosses require light parties to take mechanics like positionals more seriously, I think you'd see players complain that the pace of the dungeons is then too slow/demanding. So, for the game that FF14 actually is, it's up to the boss encounters themselves to justify the full extent of player's abilities, and that currently includes positionals on melee DPS.

And honestly, SE has done a pretty good job at mixing things up there. There are a number of bosses where positionals are barely or straight up not a factor whatsoever due to their sheer size, or because the encounters are designed in a very specific way, for cinematic/gameplay purposes.

At the end of the day, you have to accept that you will miss positionals sometimes, either because you screwed up, or because another player screwed up. And that's fine.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

At the end of the day, you have to accept that you will miss positionals sometimes, either because you screwed up, or because another player screwed up. And that's fine.

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A good answer, but this basically reminds me of Shinryu.
It was a "difficult" content and necessary to the story.

Of course there was no mechanics but it required more than previous trials mechanic wise.

There was major complains about its difficulty, how it should be toned dowN
That shows that a majority refuses to accept their mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Because it's a pointless tax on my damage (and also fun since I play samurai mainly and missing positionals means less kenki) while being out and about in the open world. Or when I grind fates. Ground a lot of fates this last expansion thanks to the bi-color gemstones and you know what sucks? 1-3 manning a boss fate and tanking it as a samurai so I can't hit my positionals (outside of using low blow and true north obviously).

Like I see the value of the positional requirements, they make melee just a little bit spicier than ranged and I can appreciate that. But if I don't have something that can tank for me, then it just sucks out loud.

Although, joke answer, buff the hell out of chocobo enmity generation and that would work too.

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I think instead of removing positionals, they should instead remove some of the more annoying penalties for missing your positionals. Simple damage penalty would be better.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

And honestly, SE has done a pretty good job at mixing things up there. There are a number of bosses where positionals are barely or straight up not a factor whatsoever due to their sheer size, or because the encounters are designed in a very specific way, for cinematic/gameplay purposes.
[/I]

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e.g. E7... 100% uptime for melees, but probably the most boring boss. Nothing is more boring than cuddling in the mid with the group and 123, 456, 123, 456.... No matter which melee you play there. Atleast the last phase brought something more to care about and some kind of movement.

About the "great" dungeons, they could atleast go ways other mmo´s did. Swtor for example hat bonus objectives/missions to do, which opened a secret path right before the endboss to beat an even stronger bonusboss with rare loot for crafting or pets, or even equip with 5 itemlevel more. Even those dungeonbosses had an enrage so you had to care for DPS. You could even use other special objectives when you´d crafter X on level Y to activate droids which help you, etc...
Dungeons here are pretty boring to play and to care there about to positionals is not really needed, unless you care about that 10s of your life. Even the pre 50 dungeons are more exiting with more passes, rooms, chests than any of the expansions. This 2 pack -> boss -> 2 pack -> boss -> 2 pack -> boss really needs to stop. It´s gameplay wise pretty stupid and it doesn´t help anyone to improve. I met enough monks who didn´t care about positionals and as i said something it was like "I don´t care" or "Yeah i know, but i´m pretty new and tired, whatever...".

And tbh... if we talk about monk only, i´m convinced that there are 2 kinds of players anyway. The minority which says from beginning "i´m going to play monk" or the majority, which won´t play monk seriously even without positionals.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

There was major complains about its difficulty, how it should be toned dowN
That shows that a majority refuses to accept their mistakes.

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It´s not "refuse" every time. It´s just no motivation to do better, to become better, whatever. It´s just not worth the time for such players, but they want their loot, no matter how. The great reason why goldsellers are a thing too.
FF14 is still a gear - related casual game. Just saying, healer LB3 ftw!

It´s just easier to complain in a forum than to learn a class or to kill a boss you know?!

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

A good answer, but this basically reminds me of Shinryu.
It was a "difficult" content and necessary to the story.

There was major complains about its difficulty, how it should be toned dowN
That shows that a majority refuses to accept their mistakes.

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It really wasn't difficult at all, people simply refused to pay attention to mechanics that took around 8 seconds to set off. You've probably never done "The Steps of Faith" pre-nerf, the fight before entering HW. SE really wanted to put the ball on challenging players starting from that all the way to A8S.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

Simplifying the game's mechanics by removing positional skills is a bad idea. If SE were to do that, the uproar would be either just as bad or worse than the dumbing down of Tank and Healer jobs in this expansion. I say that because most of the player base plays DPS jobs.

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And yet in the old days, you had to literally do positional for Drg/Mnk just to continue the combo. Flank/Rear failed to be there, you lost combo.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

It´s just easier to complain in a forum than to learn a class or to kill a boss you know?!

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Truth right there, except majority of the time ignore mentor advice since they're usually clueless.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

You see, this is where I have a tough time understanding why anyone complained about Monk's positionals prior to the latest patch. We had the ability to ignore positionals for lengthy periods of time thanks to True North and the old Earth's Reply, to the point where SE NERFED those two abilities so that we would engage with positionals MORE.

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Again like I said, is not the design's fault. Positionals is a mechanic that I actually enjoy because keeps some kind of dynamic differently than just pressing buttons in a specific order or condition.

My complaint is about the user: bad tanks that simply do not care about the dpers. And no, True North doesn't help if the tank flips the target right as your finger is landing on the key. I honestly don't know if I'm just unlucky or something, but when it comes to random groups I always end with that kind of tank all the time.

Miss positionals sometimes is fine... Missing them constantly is not, but hey... The only solution to this, I am doing, which is not using Monk in random runs.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

And yet in the old days, you had to literally do positional for Drg/Mnk just to continue the combo. Flank/Rear failed to be there, you lost combo.

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Call me crazy, but that sounds fun. I'd love to have something like that return, even if it'd only irk a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

Call me crazy, but that sounds fun. I'd love to have something like that return, even if it'd only irk a lot of people.

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Yeah I don't remember Monk but this was back in 2.0, I am very confident this is how it went, can correct me. I take that back about the losing combo part, only 2 things really did it.

Heavy Thrust (Flank): 15% damage buff plus Potency+ if you flank and you only obtained the buff when flanking.

Chaos Thrust (Rear): Dot plus Potency, you only landed the dot if you used at the rear.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Yeah I don't remember Monk but this was back in 2.0, I am very confident this is how it went, can correct me. I take that back about the losing combo part, only 2 things really did it.

Heavy Thrust (Flank): 15% damage buff plus Potency+ if you flank and you only obtained the buff when flanking.

Chaos Thrust (Rear): Dot plus Potency, you only landed the dot if you used at the rear.

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Almost. Monk IIRC always got their buff/debuff, however, missing the poitional meant a much bigger potency loss.

Dragoon however, is where it got interesting. Heavy Thrust is as you said, you only got the buff if you hit the flank. As for the Chaos Thrust combo though, there was no rear positional on Chaos Thrust, it was on Impulse Drive. Missing the rear positional meant it never comboed into Disembowel, which then put you behind on your whole GCD rotation.

Fair enough cheers for correction, it's been years so the memory is hazy.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

Call me crazy, but that sounds fun. I'd love to have something like that return, even if it'd only irk a lot of people.

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It used to work when job didn't had gauges.
Now, losing a combo would mean for a SAM to delay the next Midare and too much errors would mean even delay the next Tsubame.

Look, I do it* from behind and enjoy it. Positionals are fun.






*DPS

I like the positional mechanic. Also from an immersion pov where attacking someone in the back or side, could do more damage. But imo that should be something special, not every single target attack.

Monk positionals are just a bit too repetitive because they are part of the rotation. This makes it feel gimmicky to me. What makes it worse, is that when you are on your own, they just feel like a stupid penalty you can't shake off.

I rather see fewer positional skill(s) outside your rotation that then require a specific position to have maximum effect. Maybe having the rotation work your way up to that so that they become available, or increase the effect of them. Or after using certain utility skills (Stun and then a positional for max effect). Anyway, something that can be used when on your own too.

But the way it works now is just bit boring imo. With Monk it kind of makes it feel like a chore.

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Originally Posted by DelaiRelay

Monk positionals are just a bit too repetitive because they are part of the rotation. This makes it feel gimmicky to me. What makes it worse, is that when you are on your own, they just feel like a stupid penalty you can't shake off..

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For one soloed instances are rare and far between that its impossible to struggle with any, I do agree i wish Demo and Twin werent tied to postionals but MNK has ways to accommodate like Riddle of earth

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Originally Posted by DelaiRelay

I rather see fewer positional skill(s) outside your rotation that then require a specific position to have maximum effect. Maybe having the rotation work your way up to that so that they become available, or increase the effect of them. Or after using certain utility skills (Stun and then a positional for max effect). Anyway, something that can be used when on your own too.

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First of all, everything is going to be repetitive in a "rotation-game". It´s up to the boss mechanics to force the player to adjust and to offer a different experience / enjoyment.

What you´ve written down doesn´t make so much sense in practice. What if the positional skill comes up, but you can´t use it because you stuck somewhere else thx to the current boss mechanic? It would be a hard damage loss. Same if you rework some skills or give them multiple positional-effects. Either ppl will ignore positionals, because you´ll get an effect whatever you do, or one of the effects will be stronger than the other. On the other hand you could give e.g. demolish 2 dots to keep up, one from the side and one from the back. But i can´t imagine anyone wants that.

If you´re on your own, you could use a chocobo with the tank-stance. It works great. After level X, you can make use of Riddle of Earth or True North to get ride of the positional requirements. Monk has enough burst potential for adds anyway.
And keep in mind that the potency from positionals aren´t that big. The only bad thing is probably to lose the 100 crit on Bootshine, but that´s it. Monk positionals are nothing which stops from leveling or soloplay in any way. There are way worse jobs without any requirements, which plays "hmmmmm" if you´re alone. (As bard you wait for your dots to do the job. SAM, who is losing a lot of Kenki and getting your buffs take like ages especially to kill add groups. And finally if Midare comes up, the enemy is already dead. Etc...)

The positional is fun and allows dynamic gameplay, if you don't like it, go play BRD, MCH, etc.

If you like melee play, learn how to manage positional, in the end, you will at least take some pride in taming the game and not complain & want to change because you don't like it.

There are now 2 stacks at true north, there's not even reason to complain anymore that you can't properly exploit your offensive CDs.
Learn how to play!

Change your mentality, instead of complaining, master your job and in any case, it's not you who decides the devs.

Ps: Playing Dragoon is disconcertingly easy and boring from my point of view.
It's just a loop of 2 long combo's, there's no more no brain in my opinion. The job with the least interest in melee Dragoon in my opinion.

Do you think it's hard in Dragoon ? Try Monk or Ninja, you'll get a different opinion. Although in the end no job is hard, the logic is more or less the same, except that some jobs require you to keep a buff or debuff active.
Ninja is not hard, you just have to get it out of your head that a melee just has to hit in a melee, many complain because this or that is not the way they want it.

"Free your mind, Neo."

Is what makes a melee class "fun" based on positionals.

I'm hard pressed to say NO!

Positionals are stupid, and I for one would not think twice if I saw it in any patch notes to have them removed.

I love running Delebrum just for the sole purpose to chill on my monk and just beat the crap out of the bosses. They don't have positionals at all noted by the full circle target marker. No need to pop true north, I can pop RoE for damage reduction, use Six Sided Star to get me out of trouble. Monk is a BLAST to play without positionals. Some people should really try it.

I can focus on the AOE, and mechanics vs. where I need to be to get more DPS. I have WAY more fun just watching the fight while my muscle memory kicks in just completing my rotation, as i'm watching the cast bar, the aoe's, and Party member list.

Postionals aren't deep when your skills aren't gated behind them....they are just annoying given boss mechanics.

Get rid of them... and implement something more unique.


OK OK...I know i'm upsetting many....fine. I would OK with Dragon Kick and Bootshine being the only positionals required. Dragon Kick must be used on flank to grant leaden fist. Bootshine must be used from back to grant a critical hit. This would free me up much more and less of a penalty to just staying on the boss if an aoe is where I need to stand to gain a bonus, but I still have some strategy to my job.

I would love if fists of wind removed run speed and was replaced with removes positional requirements. GIVE ME THAT CHOICE!