Elemental Spell Reform

maybe Blm tears will be able to hurt him. i mean there will be plenty of it to gather up for water ballons for the melee to throw at them when Blm are sitting on the outside of Titans instance begging for a pt.

but also couldnt help but notice no one had replies for my earlier posts about Wars and Summoners

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

maybe Blm tears will be able to hurt him. i mean there will be plenty of it to gather up for water ballons for the melee to throw at them when Blm are sitting on the outside of Titans instance begging for a pt.

---

That is how melee currently feel right now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klive

That is how melee currently feel right now

---

In order for them to change it so every class/job is useful is to take away the knock back/self aoe that most Bosses have. The other thing is to do what Ifrit does with plumes, yet we all know how that would work out with lag. But it's the only way for melees to not completely run up to a mob and take it down fast. Give the plumes a larger time scale to ensure that it's our mistake and not server lag.

Lastly, stated several times, give black mage exclusively all tier elemental spells, give Cjn a combo line for banish/scourge.

It's really that simple, cjn get's it's solo factor, and blm is useful for all fights, and melee show their skill by dodging and attacking effectively. Everyone wins.

To give THM/BLM all the elements, it would take up their WHOLE spell list. Just for the basic and the second tier spell, that would be 12 spells. 12 spells that are are the exactly same spell with different elements. If you have them all the 'ancient magics' spells too, that would be 18 spells. Talk about a boring class, 18 spells that are all the same and 2 abilities. I really don't want 18 ways to do the same thing with a different graphic.

I know people want mages to have larger spell lists and mages are entitled to more button than melee. That would be just like FF14 at launch. I had tons of spells that I never used, and only had the element I needed for that fight on my bar. Mage pre-reform were just too packed with crap.

Right now, the spell make sense on how they work.

Thunder hits one target. Lightning in the real world is that same way, hits one point. I can see .that

Fire is like an explosion and hits an area. Fire is generally in not contained to s single spot, it does spread. Makes sense to me.

Ice is weak but slows and binds things. Compared to fire and lightning, ice does seem the weakest and would slow me down. Reasonable, works for me.

The current Dev team is probably trying to be as different as possible. Yes, limiting how spells work and giving them weaknesses does make them unique. Our BLMs and WHMs are different from other FF and have their own flavor. Why change that? Lets see how the other mage class turn out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klive

To give THM/BLM all the elements, it would take up their WHOLE spell list. Just for the basic and the second tier spell, that would be 12 spells. 12 spells that are are the exactly same spell with different elements. If you have them all the 'ancient magics' spells too, that would be 18 spells. Talk about a boring class, 18 spells that are all the same and 2 abilities. I really don't want 18 ways to do the same thing with a different graphic.

I know people want mages to have larger spell lists and mages are entitled to more button than melee. That would be just like FF14 at launch. I had tons of spells that I never used, and only had the element I needed for that fight on my bar. Mage pre-reform were just too packed with crap.

Right now, the spell make sense on how they work.

Thunder hits one target. Lightning in the real world is that same way, hits one point. I can see .that

Fire is like an explosion and hits an area. Fire is generally in not contained to s single spot, it does spread. Makes sense to me.

Ice is weak but slows and binds things. Compared to fire and lightning, ice does seem the weakest and would slow me down. Reasonable, works for me.

The current Dev team is probably trying to be as different as possible. Yes, limiting how spells work and giving them weaknesses does make them unique. Our BLMs and WHMs are different from other FF and have their own flavor. Why change that? Lets see how the other mage class turn out.

---

You boil anything under spells/abilities/armor/weapons to two general things, defense and attack. So to say 12 spells to say they all do the same thing, what doesn't? One book is a book, a sword is no different from another the sword.

Lightning is not a single target, what we see is not the whole bolt. The clouds hide away it's true form, which is a sprite which pretty much is the deadliest part of a lightning storm, usually they only go up into the air above the clouds. Pretty much an upside down tree, the roots being the sprite.

Fire can be single target as well, flamethrowers.

Ice... when do you ever see a weak slow avalanche? The bind part I agree with, it makes sense. But the bind/gravity doesn't work on important fights.

The soloer should not be prioritized over the party player. I am sorry it's an MMO you should be playing with people, just because people want to solo with Cjn doesn't mean they have to ruin Black Mage's damage output. That's why cjn should get banish/scourge. That way you keep your damn DD output and be an optional DD'er when you get the chance, but atleast then Blm can have so damn variety besides Thunder spells.

Indeed Jinrya-Geki I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way.

Moving on:
And what's more there's no reason that all spells "must" be the same, I only ever said base dmg, added effects: burn, slow, bind, blind, paralyze, poison, def down, attk down, eva down, stun, gravity, this list is absurdly long if you choose to look through previous FFs.
So perhaps something like
AoE is a toggle, when AoE is on, there's a base range modified by gear/traits/active abils/spell tier?
AoE on base dmg is divided between mobs hit, so if AoE tags 3 mobs they each take 33.33% of base modified per mob.
AoE on added effects still land normal, their effectiveness isn't lessened by AoE spread.

I can't for the life of me remember all of the statuses and what element they're associated with anymore but if
Tier 1
Fire == (what's fire status effect, not burn)
Water == poison
Scourge == Blind
Banish == M.Def Down
Tier 2
Element II == Elemental debuff + DoT
So:
Fire II == Burn + Str Down
Ice II == Frost + Int Down
....

I'll assume everyone sees where that's all headed.
Yes it's 12 spells on THM/BLM not counting AM, but they all absolutely serve a purpose, no matter what even now w/ only 3 elements you aren't using all of them all the time. That's kind of the thing w/ elementally aligned attacks, you always use the 1~2 that are best in a given situation. That does not mean that you should be limited to only being useful in 3/4 situations because your missing 2/3s of the elements.

I want the 6 element wheel Ice > Wind > Earth > Thunder > Water > Fire > Ice, with Light <> Dark being diametrically opposed. It was a good system, far better than Earth <> Wind and Fire <> Water, or a 3 part rock paper scissors wheel. Your a mage, you should want to think about what's best, hell that's what mages are no, the "thinkers"

BLMs being useful for Titan is all based on the design of the fight. They could have some adds you need to sleep or an Infernal Nails situation where the AOE damage of fire really helps to kill them.

As the element system is now, as long as enemies continue to be attuned to one element only there is absolutely no fight that you will not be able to at least deal neutral damage to. Your spells are more than just different flavors of the exact same spell now, they are situational and as long as those situations are utilized then BLM will see use.

Our spell lists are going to expand sometime around or at 2.0 anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klive

To give THM/BLM all the elements, it would take up their WHOLE spell list. Just for the basic and the second tier spell, that would be 12 spells. 12 spells that are are the exactly same spell with different elements. If you have them all the 'ancient magics' spells too, that would be 18 spells. Talk about a boring class, 18 spells that are all the same and 2 abilities. I really don't want 18 ways to do the same thing with a different graphic.

I know people want mages to have larger spell lists and mages are entitled to more button than melee. That would be just like FF14 at launch. I had tons of spells that I never used, and only had the element I needed for that fight on my bar. Mage pre-reform were just too packed with crap.

Right now, the spell make sense on how they work.

Thunder hits one target. Lightning in the real world is that same way, hits one point. I can see .that

Fire is like an explosion and hits an area. Fire is generally in not contained to s single spot, it does spread. Makes sense to me.

Ice is weak but slows and binds things. Compared to fire and lightning, ice does seem the weakest and would slow me down. Reasonable, works for me.

The current Dev team is probably trying to be as different as possible. Yes, limiting how spells work and giving them weaknesses does make them unique. Our BLMs and WHMs are different from other FF and have their own flavor. Why change that? Lets see how the other mage class turn out.

---

God says Challenge Accepted!!!



http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/a.../lightning.jpg

Their argument of using Fire/Thunder/Blizzard absolutely reeks of tradition. And I will show you why:

This list shows the spells which deal direct magical damage, designed to be available to a "Black Mage" in every previous Final Fantasy title. (using most current translated versions for ease of reading).


Final Fantasy

Quote:

---

Fire, Fira, Flare
Thunder, Thundara
Blizzard, Blizzara

---

Final Fantasy III

Quote:

---

Fire, Fira, Flare
Thunder, Thundara
Blizzard, Blizzara
Quake

---

Final Fantasy IV

Quote:

---

Fire, Fira, Firaga, Flare, Pyro
Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga
Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga
Quake

---

Final Fantasy IV: The After Years

Quote:

---

Fire?, Fire, Fira
Thunder?, Thunder, Thundara
Blizzard?, Blizzard, Blizzara
Quake

---

Final Fantasy V

Quote:

---

Fire, Fire2, Fire3, Flare
Ice, Ice2, Ice3
Bolt, Bolt2, Bolt3

---

Final Fantasy IX

Quote:

---

Fire, Fira, Firaga, Flare
Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga
Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga
Water

---

Final Fantasy X

Quote:

---

Fire, Fira, Firaga, Flare
Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga
Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga
Water, Watera, Waterga

---

Final Fantasy X-2

Quote:

---

Fire, Fira, Firaga, Flare
Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga
Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga
Water, Watera, Waterga

---

Final Fantasy XI

Quote:

---

Fire, Firaga, Fire II, Firaga II, Fire III, Firaga III, Fire IV, Fire V, Firaja, Flare, Flare II
Thunder, Thundaga, Thunder II, Thundaga II, Thunder III, Thundaga III, Thunder IV, Thunder V, Burst, Burst II
Blizzard, Blizzaga, Blizzard II, Blizzaga II Blizzard III, Blizzaga III, Blizzard IV, Blizzard V Freeze, Freeze II
Aero, Aeroga, Aero II, Aeroga II, Aero III, Aeroga III, Aero IV, Aero V, Aeroja, Tornado, Tornado II
Stone, Stonega, Stone II, Stonega II, Stone III, Stonega III, Stone IV, Stone V, Stoneja, Quake, Quake II
Water, Waterga, Water II, Waterga II, Water III, Waterga III, Water IV, Water V, Waterja, Flood, Flood II

---

Final Fantasy XII

Quote:

---

Fire, Fira, Firaga, Flare
Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga
Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga
Aero, Aeroga
Aqua

---

Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings

Quote:

---

Fire, Firaga, Flare
Blizzard
Thunder

---

Final Fantasy Tactics

Quote:

---

Fire, Fira, Firaga, Firaja, Flare
Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga, Thundaja
Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga, Blizzaja

---

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance

Quote:

---

Fire, Fira, Firaga
Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga
Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga

---

Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift

Quote:

---

Fire, Fira, Firaga
Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga
Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga

---

Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a King

Quote:

---

Fire, Fira, Firaga
Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga
Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga

---

Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo's Dungeon

Quote:

---

Fire, Firaga, Flare
Thunder, Thundaga
Blizzard, Blizzaga
Quake

---

Dissidia Final Fantasy

Quote:

---

Fira, Firaga, Flare
Thunder, Thundaga, Burst
Blizzard, Blizzaga, Freeze
Water, Waterga, Flood
Aero, Aeroga, Tornado
Stone, Stonega, Quake

---

Dissidia 012 Final Fantasy

Quote:

---

Fira, Firaga, Flare
Thunder, Thundaga, Burst
Blizzard, Blizzaga, Freeze
Water, Waterga, Flood
Aero, Aeroga, Tornado
Stone, Stonega, Quake

---

Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light

Quote:

---

Fire, Fira, Firaga
Thunder, Thundara, Thundaga
Blizzard, Blizzara, Blizzaga
Quake, Quakra, Quaga
Aero, Aerora, Aeroga
Water, Watera, Waterga
Dark, Darkra, Darkga
Banish, Banishra, Banishga

---

TL;DR -- Black mage spells are as follows:

Fire-Associated direct-damage spells show up in 18/18 games, with 74 entries. (26.4%)
Thunder-Associated direct-damage spells show up in 18/18 games, with 63 entries. (22.5%)
Blizzard-Associated direct-damage spells show up in 18/18 games, with 63 entries. (22.5%)
Water-Associated direct-damage spells show up in 8/18 games, with 28 entries. (10%)
Stone-Associated direct-damage spells show up in 8/18 games, with 24 entries. (8.6%)
Aero-Associated direct-damage spells show up in 5/18 games, with 22 entries. (7.9%)
Umbral-Associated direct-damage spells show up in 1/18 games, with 3 entries. (1%)
Astral-Associated direct-damage spells show up in 1/18 games, with 3 entries. (1%)

funny thing is though Flare post ff11 is non elemental Dmg.

Honestly scrap Burst from the 15 make it a 1min 30 second recast and replace the 15 with Ultima and make in non elemental dmg unresistable. and well call it even hell ill trade the useless agas for it.

I agree that there should be elemental reform. There also needs to be some changes to lore also, and it's best to do it sooner than later, better pre-2.0 than post, but that's another issue.

On to Fire/Lightning/Ice for thm/blm issue. I think of it as Thm/blm's having the destructive magical elements. Not that Water, earth, and wind can't be destructive, hell you could beat a person to death with a dildo if you really wanted to, but Fire/Lightning/Ice just seem more destructive by nature, while the other three seem more life giving in a way.

Part of the problem is now that if you get attacked by a bunch of mobs strong to fire, you're likely better off picking them off one at a time with Lightning, or a single strong enemy stong against Lightning, surrounded by non-aggro enemies, fire is out of the question since it's exclusively aoe.

Maybe making the elemental "wheel"s only apply to specific types of monsters such as elementals and Esper types, and to have the rest of the enemies set up on a case by case basis, with thm/blm elements in mind would really help. This would also make elemental abilities that do not belong to mages less restricting.

And/or change the way magic chaining works. Use the Stone -> Stonega concept for all elements, and also a reverse.

So for instance Fire -> Fira (aoe) would make Fira a strong single target attack, but the other way around so Fira (aoe) -> Fire would make Fire a moderate aoe attack, roughly on part with Fira (aoe). Doing this with all the elements would make sense and still be limited by the possibility that the target ends up resisting the spell keeping the player from being able to chain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Estellios

BLMs being useful for Titan is all based on the design of the fight. They could have some adds you need to sleep or an Infernal Nails situation where the AOE damage of fire really helps to kill them.

As the element system is now, as long as enemies continue to be attuned to one element only there is absolutely no fight that you will not be able to at least deal neutral damage to. Your spells are more than just different flavors of the exact same spell now, they are situational and as long as those situations are utilized then BLM will see use.

Our spell lists are going to expand sometime around or at 2.0 anyway.

---

I never count enfeebles in important fights like primals. They never work, and if they do land they last less than 5 seconds, and if you use it anymore in that fight, your wasting MP and time cause they won't stick anymore. The draw back of the new enfeeble system. Can already see Rdm going to be a horrible enfeebler with this system in place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duuude007

Their argument of using Fire/Thunder/Blizzard absolutely reeks of tradition. And I will show you why:

This list shows the spells which deal direct magical damage, designed to be available to a "Black Mage" in every previous Final Fantasy title. (using most current translated versions for ease of reading).

---

My argument to the classic FFs, unless the mob was an elemental, they weren't gonna resist the spell. And if the mob did resist one spell, say lightning, you still had a useful fire or a useful ice spell to take them down.

In this game you have Lightning that does awesome damage with combo. Fire is so-so, the mp cost really kills it. Lolice... the retarded cousin of MIAwater.

Gonna keep bumping this till it get's some kind of reply from a developer.

What is the plans for the split elements?

Do you intend to reform it all so that one class gets all the elemental spells? Why wasn't conjurer given 2 single target banishes, and 1 AOE banish that could be comboed into single target instead of messing with Black Mages DD output on all mobs.

Since you split the elements between White mage and Black Mage for some reason, are you gonna split up summoners ability as well with some other class that shouldn't have it too?

Is the enfeeble system going to be redone again, because for some reason no one seems to notice how bad they are now? If it wasn't a zerg fest I promise you people would notice how bad sleepga is after one use.

Will Ancient Magic spells be redone so that they are actually effective for more than just trash mobs and hate reset. (Seriously freeze shouldn't be freeze).

Quote:

---

Since you split the elements between White mage and Black Mage for some reason, are you gonna split up summoners ability as well with some other class that shouldn't have it too?

---

LOL, you just can't stand that they went back to the early FF elemental split, can you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vaymathias

LOL, you just can't stand that they went back to the early FF elemental split, can you?

---

Alot of people are, but there's alot more wrong with it all. Jinrya-Geki and many others are right, these changes broke shit.
Anyway why single out that little bit.
And why not ask, "Why would we move back to a system that was moved away from so long ago and not revisited until now?" the last, what, decade or more worth of FF titles have not used this split system, there's probably a reason ... I don't rember one in 7 8 (I don't remeber much of 9) 10 11 12 13 ... Probably just oversight there though, the old 80s way was evolved from entirely by accident and that evolution stuck because it was simply terrible ... wait that's not what happened lol

Do you like having things simplified down to only having 3 spell types to choose from? 8 too much to think about? does remembering what order the 6 element wheel follow hurt your head? Or do you just believe that the whole game should be rock paper scissors, that's what we have now, do you like it, I did in 3rd grade but then I grew up and realized that rock paper scissors lighters bombs hoses and light sockets could all be used ...

I the only reform I would like to see is more interesting combo options with spells. For example, areo line and stone line are very well made in my opinion. If you don't combo them, you have an AoE, if you don't get it increase the damage and become a single target. Make the two spell of the stone or areo lines function and feel like three spells.

Thunder and thundra also have this but it rarely used. Thundra stuns when not in a combo, I foresee this being more useful when PvP comes out. I think could of did something like this to the blizzard line. Like making blizzra combo from blizzard for better ice damage, but no longer binds. The fire line I feel they could of done more with. The combo only increase casting speed, honestly I rarely get past fira before the monsters are dead. Making Fire single target and making when in a combo the fire line is single target could of been a good idea. Flare already kllls pretty much whatever when need for AoE damage, our fire line maybe over kill in AoE damage.

Most FF have flare as a single target non-elemental nuke and I would liked that as well.

I do think, with a few adjustments the spell lines could be better. Reform might be overkill though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enfarious

Alot of people are, but there's alot more wrong with it all. Jinrya-Geki and many others are right, these changes broke shit.
Anyway why single out that little bit.
And why not ask, "Why would we move back to a system that was moved away from so long ago and not revisited until now?" the last, what, decade or more worth of FF titles have not used this split system, there's probably a reason ... I don't rember one in 7 8 (I don't remeber much of 9) 10 11 12 13 ... Probably just oversight there though, the old 80s way was evolved from entirely by accident and that evolution stuck because it was simply terrible ... wait that's not what happened lol

Do you like having things simplified down to only having 3 spell types to choose from? 8 too much to think about? does remembering what order the 6 element wheel follow hurt your head? Or do you just believe that the whole game should be rock paper scissors, that's what we have now, do you like it, I did in 3rd grade but then I grew up and realized that rock paper scissors lighters bombs hoses and light sockets could all be used ...

---

Why? Because in a game where the developers are able to design the content how they want, and the strengths and effects of spells, there's not reason to give THM/BLM every element.

BTW, it wasn't really that long ago that it was used, Tactics Advanced (2?) I think BLM only had tiered of Fire/Ice/Lightning.

They could easily develope the content around using Fire/Ice/Lightning, AND that even means, if they want it this way, to have enemies that are not weak or even neutral to all the elements that THM/BLM have access to.

I admit, at first I was really (thunder) struck by the change, but once it dawned on me that THM/BLM would be balanced towards all (or at least most, hopefully) content, it doesn't bother me at all any more. I even prefer it this way now.

And go **** yourself. Insulting me just because I don't agree with you. Only children do that, are you a child?

They should just scrap the wheel for all but "element" type and run all the elemental type enemies elemental weaknesses on a more truthful and/or more cases by case basis. And, no, this would not be "rock, paper, scissors".

They could do things where, hitting robotic/cybernetic enemies take extra damage from lightning, EXCEPT, an occasional one would be insulated allowing him to be neutral/resistant to it or even as far as absorbing it, healing him or making him stronger.

Quote:

---

I the only reform I would like to see is more interesting combo options with spells. For example, areo line and stone line are very well made in my opinion. If you don't combo them, you have an AoE, if you don't get it increase the damage and become a single target. Make the two spell of the stone or areo lines function and feel like three spells.

---

I like the chain for stone/aero too. I was thinking they should do that with all the elements AND also a backwards version, where if you use the aoe one first, then you can chain the single target version to become another aoe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vaymathias

Why? Because in a game where the developers are able to design the content how they want, and the strengths and effects of spells, there's not reason to give THM/BLM every element.

BTW, it wasn't really that long ago that it was used, Tactics Advanced (2?) I think BLM only had tiered of Fire/Ice/Lightning.

They could easily develope the content around using Fire/Ice/Lightning, AND that even means, if they want it this way, to have enemies that are not weak or even neutral to all the elements that THM/BLM have access to.

I admit, at first I was really (thunder) struck by the change, but once it dawned on me that THM/BLM would be balanced towards all (or at least most, hopefully) content, it doesn't bother me at all any more. I even prefer it this way now.

And go **** yourself. Insulting me just because I don't agree with you. Only children do that, are you a child?

They should just scrap the wheel for all but "element" type and run all the elemental type enemies elemental weaknesses on a more truthful and/or more cases by case basis. And, no, this would not be "rock, paper, scissors".

They could do things where, hitting robotic/cybernetic enemies take extra damage from lightning, EXCEPT, an occasional one would be insulated allowing him to be neutral/resistant to it or even as far as absorbing it, healing him or making him stronger.



I like the chain for stone/aero too. I was thinking they should do that with all the elements AND also a backwards version, where if you use the aoe one first, then you can chain the single target version to become another aoe.

---

Nothing I wrote was meant as an insult. Sorry if that's how it came across. All of what I said was only meant to make people, certainly not just you, think about the system in it's current state. Being the best you can be right now means stack Lightning and cast thunder alot. I don't like that people defend this. If you or anyone else has ideas that aren't defending the system as it is now I applaud you.

As for the dev's getting to make a game any way they want, that ship has sailed, they gave us power to call for change, and then asked us to use that power. In every sense they asked us to offer up the frameworks that we wanted to see in the game. I'll be damned if I'm not at the very least going to share my thoughts and opinions. If the devs are on a roll toward what we have now, the unbalance and limited play options, and aren't derailed somehow we're going to end up with a game that is no more than who wears the most thunder+ gear for dmg, str/vit gear for war tank, and a whm and brd hanging out waiting on things to die. If/when I seem condescending or generally negative it's typically because someone came across as defending things as they are, or raged at the idea of change.
Again sorry if it felt that I was intentionally insulting you, I wasn't going for that at all.

I find most of the new mechanics made things somewhat boring and droll. 8 forms of attack on a given class/job no FF (I may be wrong there's some I didn't play, FFT away from the first, crystal chronicles, a couple others) has such a limiting list of abilities. Perhaps I should have gone more to that point than saying that the current system needs to be made so blm has all elements as the only way to make it right. I do believe that having things the way they are is limiting as hell.

The current setup is rock paper scissors. Continuing this and saying we're all good with the most functional way for a blm to work is thunder > thundara > thundaga > thunder > thundara >>> repeat. Say it's not if you want to but let's look at all the content and the suggested tactics for successful fast runs:
Take WAR WHM BRD BLMx5; thunder combo ?????? down; use hate shedding abils as needed and cooling the DPS if needed.

This watered down less than robust design isn't good, and people really shouldn't be defending it. Saying oh I thought it was bad when they did it, I didn't like them taking all the options and simplifying things ... but ... wait ... now that I see it makes a single spell chain all I have to do to win in most instances I think it's awesome.
I don't understand why anyone would want this less complex, system, unless it really is just that for them easier is better.

Whether tactics advance used that system, which I don't doubt, or not, you have to keep in mind what your argument is using as a strength, a gaming system that was geared toward younger players, players where simple is a better approach. Just like the original FF games were geared toward the people playing games at the time, younger, mostly 8~15. Today's market reaches far more but in the case of this game I don't think, I hope that, the target market isn't 8~15. FFs grew up and evolved, became more robust and complex over time just like the people that made up the large part of who was buying/playing those games. Games for the advance, DS, and all the gameboys prior; tactics advance included were geared for younger players.

You can't just have three spells in this game. All the monsters have some resistance to it, and in the old Final fantasies, mobs didn't have such high resistance.

Even if the mob resisted lightning, let's say, you still have two useful spells that will do awesome damage. In this game the only other thing we have is the fire line, which is still not that great compared to thundara line. Great for taking out the trash mobs. But completely mp insufficient to mobs that matter to kill because of the mp cost. The blizzard line sucks. I don't solo, and I don't pull hate. Since we kill trash mobs with fire line, what good is the ice line?

The ancient magic spells don't live up to their names, this needs to be change.

White mage role is, always has been the healer. Only against the undead should white mage rain supreme in damage dealing. EVERYTHING else should be Black Mages turf as far as elements go. It's unfair to be restricted to one spell and call it black mage, should be called Lightning mage.

I am just asking for a reform to make Black Mage to have all elemental spells, and ancient magic spells fixed. White mage should have the banish line, and then to fix the enfeeble line before red mage comes out, otherwise we'll have 3 mages that can do the same thing almost -black mage being able to heal.

Quote:

---

Nothing I wrote was meant as an insult. Sorry if that's how it came across. All of what I said was only meant to make people, certainly not just you, think about the system in it's current state. Being the best you can be right now means stack Lightning and cast thunder alot. I don't like that people defend this. If you or anyone else has ideas that aren't defending the system as it is now I applaud you.

As for the dev's getting to make a game any way they want, that ship has sailed, they gave us power to call for change, and then asked us to use that power. In every sense they asked us to offer up the frameworks that we wanted to see in the game. I'll be damned if I'm not at the very least going to share my thoughts and opinions. If the devs are on a roll toward what we have now, the unbalance and limited play options, and aren't derailed somehow we're going to end up with a game that is no more than who wears the most thunder+ gear for dmg, str/vit gear for war tank, and a whm and brd hanging out waiting on things to die. If/when I seem condescending or generally negative it's typically because someone came across as defending things as they are, or raged at the idea of change.
Again sorry if it felt that I was intentionally insulting you, I wasn't going for that at all.

---

well I am certainly NOT defending the system as a whole, just the THM/BLM side of it. I like going by the classic FF theme, but the content is the problem, it was made for a nuker with access to 6 elements + light and dark. With 2.0, that can be changed. It's likely one of the things they're looking at since it's so important for balance.

Quote:

---

The current setup is rock paper scissors. Continuing this and saying we're all good with the most functional way for a blm to work is thunder > thundara > thundaga > thunder > thundara >>> repeat. Say it's not if you want to but let's look at all the content and the suggested tactics for successful fast runs:
Take WAR WHM BRD BLMx5; thunder combo ?????? down; use hate shedding abils as needed and cooling the DPS if needed.

---

The elemental wheel system is almost literally rock, paper, scissors. One beats the next and keeps doing so until starting over. The way it is now is rock, paper, scissors excpet you can't throw paper.

I don't like all thunder being single target, and all fire being aoe, and all ice sucking. I put my own suggestion of how to fix that issue, using the stone/aero chain system and also one in reverse which allows for two aoe's of the same element, in the same way that you can get two single targets back to back.

Quote:

---

Whether tactics advance used that system, which I don't doubt, or not, you have to keep in mind what your argument is using as a strength, a gaming system that was geared toward younger players, players where simple is a better approach. Just like the original FF games were geared toward the people playing games at the time, younger, mostly 8~15. Today's market reaches far more but in the case of this game I don't think, I hope that, the target market isn't 8~15. FFs grew up and evolved, became more robust and complex over time just like the people that made up the large part of who was buying/playing those games. Games for the advance, DS, and all the gameboys prior; tactics advance included were geared for younger players.

---

Final Fantasy 3/6 used the system as well, and that game was easily the MOST mature of all the Final Fantasies. The only tiers for black magic was bolt/fire/ice, there was a Quake spell, but it hit everyone, and not flying enemies. There was also a tornado spell called "W.Wind" I think, which was and AOE only and dealt extra damage to flying enemies, with some flying being resistant.

That system was more complex in a sense, but easier to understand. Enemy weaknesses were more truthful, since they were based on real world aspects, and not some need to fit a wheel. An enemy could use fire abilities and not be a fire based enemy, his weakness may have ended up being Lightning, it was based on the concept of the enemy.

Quote:

---

Even if the mob resisted lightning, let's say, you still have two useful spells that will do awesome damage. In this game the only other thing we have is the fire line, which is still not that great compared to thundara line. Great for taking out the trash mobs. But completely mp insufficient to mobs that matter to kill because of the mp cost. The blizzard line sucks. I don't solo, and I don't pull hate. Since we kill trash mobs with fire line, what good is the ice line?

The ancient magic spells don't live up to their names, this needs to be change.

---

As I've said, for the most part, this is taken care of in content. And yes, the ancient magic needs to be improved, possibly by attaching them to chains.

Quote:

---

White mage role is, always has been the healer. Only against the undead should white mage rain supreme in damage dealing. EVERYTHING else should be Black Mages turf as far as elements go. It's unfair to be restricted to one spell and call it black mage, should be called Lightning mage.

I am just asking for a reform to make Black Mage to have all elemental spells, and ancient magic spells fixed. White mage should have the banish line, and then to fix the enfeeble line before red mage comes out, otherwise we'll have 3 mages that can do the same thing almost -black mage being able to heal.

---

If you're basing it on role, then WHM has always be a healer, yes, but if they base it on a thematic concept, it can very easily fit. Fire/Lightning/Ice are by nature very destructive, while Water/Earth/Wind are not so. Saying that the former are Dark based elements while the latter are Holy based elements would work out perfect. Though I'm not asking for WHM to have such strong offensive magic, I was surprised at how strong Stone and Aero were.

I suspect a big reason they went with the current system was their need to have every ability from the current class/job on a persons action bars. Working with that limitation this way is perfectly fine AS LONG as they develop the content around it.

These limitations on Disciple of magic of 15 abilities needs to be removed. If conjurers want to solo, they should have to cross-class spells from Thm. Party play > Solo.

Why was this terrible idea done? Seriously I want a valid reason to why:

Disciple of Magic have 15 abilities?

Why solo play took priority of party play?

Why the wheel was split?

Why Fire/Ice aren't as good Thunder line when you limited us to 15 spells?

Why the ancient magics spells suck at DD. (Freezes needs upped damage, and Flare not be self aoe. Burst could be better for a 15 minute ability.)

Why does Holy suck for all you MP?

Why did you make enfeebles useless? Stack all the pity you want after the first use of any enfeeble it's useless.

Yet it's seen fit to nerf warrior first...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vaymathias

well I am certainly NOT defending the system as a whole, just the THM/BLM side of it. I like going by the classic FF theme, but the content is the problem, it was made for a nuker with access to 6 elements + light and dark. With 2.0, that can be changed. It's likely one of the things they're looking at since it's so important for balance.

---

Adding yet more simplification isn't helping, imo, that's all that this will do. Changing the system to better suit less options, to make less dynamics is what they'd be doing.

Quote:

---

The elemental wheel system is almost literally rock, paper, scissors. One beats the next and keeps doing so until starting over. The way it is now is rock, paper, scissors except you can't throw paper.

---

The wheel makes sense, I didn't suggest that mobs follow any particular pattern of resistance, but just that those 6 elements chasing one another does make sense. Ants being earth based makes sense, and what mobs use don't have to be based on their elemental affinity, ants being earth based doesn't mean they can't generate fire, just that because they're attuned to earth what with living in it they should be strong to it. I think that's pretty much what you've been saying, I completely agree with that.

Quote:

---

I don't like all thunder being single target, and all fire being aoe, and all ice sucking. I put my own suggestion of how to fix that issue, using the stone/aero chain system and also one in reverse which allows for two aoe's of the same element, in the same way that you can get two single targets back to back.

---

Everyone (I think) agrees that this is a broken aspect of things in the magick system.

Quote:

---

Final Fantasy 3/6 used the system as well, and that game was easily the MOST mature of all the Final Fantasies. The only tiers for black magic was bolt/fire/ice, there was a Quake spell, but it hit everyone, and not flying enemies. There was also a tornado spell called "W.Wind" I think, which was and AOE only and dealt extra damage to flying enemies, with some flying being resistant.

That system was more complex in a sense, but easier to understand. Enemy weaknesses were more truthful, since they were based on real world aspects, and not some need to fit a wheel. An enemy could use fire abilities and not be a fire based enemy, his weakness may have ended up being Lightning, it was based on the concept of the enemy.

---

They all blur some going back that far, late 80's/early 90's but, the systems were very simple, things like quake, flood, flare, meteo, holy, all existed back that far. When I say the game became more mature and robust I mean the mechanics overall. The materia system, jobs and subjobs, the sphere grid. The story lines were always great, it's one of the reasons that to this day I continue to play these over most other games.
Complex but easy to understand was achieved in many of them, with 8 elements the system isn't any more diffucult to understand just more robust, there's more options, more you CAN do, if someone still wants to cast nothing but the one spell they can, but those that want the more robust complex system are welcome to use it.

Quote:

---

As I've said, for the most part, this is taken care of in content. And yes, the ancient magic needs to be improved, possibly by attaching them to chains.

If you're basing it on role, then WHM has always be a healer, yes, but if they base it on a thematic concept, it can very easily fit. Fire/Lightning/Ice are by nature very destructive, while Water/Earth/Wind are not so. Saying that the former are Dark based elements while the latter are Holy based elements would work out perfect. Though I'm not asking for WHM to have such strong offensive magic, I was surprised at how strong Stone and Aero were.

---

Fire Lightning Ice aren't any more or less destructive than Floods Quakes/Volcanoes(which are fire/earth) and Tornados, actually of them Ice as an element is one of the least destructive on it's own, without the impact of wind to create a blizzard, earth to create an avalanche ... Ice actually creates very stable, if slick, homes/ground for people, fire is life giving in every corner of the world and every culture, lightning is what's making this whole conversation possible by being in a controlled form. Most poisons are derived from a liquid base.

Quote:

---

I suspect a big reason they went with the current system was their need to have every ability from the current class/job on a persons action bars. Working with that limitation this way is perfectly fine AS LONG as they develop the content around it.

---

They haven't got nearly every ability and skill from the old/orig system. When they decided imposing a limit of 15 abilities to each class I have to believe it was to speed and simplify development for a version of the game that they knew was going away.

I really do hope that they don't keep this system, both on the 15 abilities front, and the way mages are now, whm isn't a whm from the majority of the old ff lore, blm isn't a blm from the majority of the old ff lore, yet the claim is, "We drew from previous FFs." What I mean by this is, to clarify, WHM hasn't every been a job that has a DD repertoire, BLM has always been the job that has elemental control to a science. This we have 2 Elemental mages not a whm and a blm, the only distinction is that blm can't heal and buff as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

These limitations on Disciple of magic of 15 abilities needs to be removed. If conjurers want to solo, they should have to cross-class spells from Thm. Party play > Solo.

---

Yes that's how it should work. The split the wheel so they both get some was just a bad choice I think. Could have just as easily given cnj/whm banish and what have you.

Quote:

---

Why was this terrible idea done? Seriously I want a valid reason to why:
Disciple of Magic have 15 abilities?
Why solo play took priority of party play?
Why the wheel was split?
Why Fire/Ice aren't as good Thunder line when you limited us to 15 spells?
Why the ancient magics spells suck at DD. (Freezes needs upped damage, and Flare not be self aoe. Burst could be better for a 15 minute ability.)
Why does Holy suck for all you MP?
Why did you make enfeebles useless? Stack all the pity you want after the first use of any enfeeble it's useless.

Yet it's seen fit to nerf warrior first...

---

From the top down, what I think the reasons are anyway:
-To simplify development, they don't have to come up with as much for a game that's going away.
-It didn't you can gain far more xp/hr in a good party than you can soloing leves.
-It was easier to split the wheel than add new abilities/spells?
-Poor design ideas.
-Alot of the jobs have abilities that suck and go basically unused, Dragonfire Dive...
-Again holy fits in with the rest, it was fast not well thought out design that couldn't be fit to the current content.
-Enfeebles gimped/mobs buffed against repeated use of the same ones to attempt to encourage people to try to use other things, noone was beta testing AoE weight/bind/blind as viable crowd controls so they tried to give us a reason. No a great way to do it and certainly didn't make people happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

These limitations on Disciple of magic of 15 abilities needs to be removed. If conjurers want to solo, they should have to cross-class spells from Thm. Party play > Solo.

Why was this terrible idea done? Seriously I want a valid reason to why:

Disciple of Magic have 15 abilities?

---

Because every single class has 15 abilities, all classes are made equal in that regard! It's a design choice, there is no particular need for DoM to have more abilities than DoW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Why solo play took priority of party play?

---

I cannot given an answer to that given I do not think that holds true, sorry. You could tell me why you think it does, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Why the wheel was split?

---

Presumably, they wanted each mage to have sufficient offensive abilities of their own, and did not want any single element to be present on more than one mage. So thus, the elements were split between mages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Why Fire/Ice aren't as good Thunder line when you limited us to 15 spells?

---

They are! Just every bit as good as thunder, I'd say! In their particular roles. For diminished damaged, Fire gains AoE and it's just as good at AoE damage as Thunder is good in ST damage (Thunder-level damage to an AoE would be overpowered), Blizzard exchanges damage for enfeebling statuses and in Blizarra's case instant cast. Blizzard is as good at enfeebling as Thunder is good at dealing damage! They have very distinct roles and are equally proficient, in their own roles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Why the ancient magics spells suck at DD. (Freezes needs upped damage, and Flare not be self aoe. Burst could be better for a 15 minute ability.)

---

I think it's consensus that Burst is excessively underwhelming, that one I cannot excuse but i've no experience with it. However, you need to reavail your concepts, Freeze is not a direct DD spell, but it increases your DPS considerably by reducing your enmity by a large amount. Like the rest of the Blizzard spells it's a utility, not a raw damage, spell and from what I gather it's incredibly powerful at it's role, utility and 'buff'. Flare, presumably, has an extremely high amount of damage for an AoE, so instead of paying with damage for the AoE it instead pays with target restriction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Why does Holy suck for all you MP?

---

Presumably, because White Mage is not supposed to have that powerful of a spell. Seriously, for that much power and instant cast for a job that's certainly not meant to deal damage, why, it's a suitable price. What other price would you suggest?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Why did you make enfeebles useless? Stack all the pity you want after the first use of any enfeeble it's useless.

---

Presumably so cheap tactics like 'stunlocking' aren't usable and so that 'trench battles' become an uphill challange, making the playerbase shy away from excessively long, drawn-out battles and adding a more dynamic element to battle. Wether they implemented that correctly or failed at it, I cannot say, but it's possible to discern the intent of it.

Quote:

---

Fire Lightning Ice aren't any more or less destructive than Floods Quakes/Volcanoes(which are fire/earth) and Tornados, actually of them Ice as an element is one of the least destructive on it's own, without the impact of wind to create a blizzard, earth to create an avalanche ... Ice actually creates very stable, if slick, homes/ground for people, fire is life giving in every corner of the world and every culture, lightning is what's making this whole conversation possible by being in a controlled form. Most poisons are derived from a liquid base.

I suspect a big reason they went with the current system was their need to have every ability from the current class/job on a persons action bars. Working with that limitation this way is perfectly fine AS LONG as they develop the content around it.
They haven't got nearly every ability and skill from the old/orig system. When they decided imposing a limit of 15 abilities to each class I have to believe it was to speed and simplify development for a version of the game that they knew was going away.

I really do hope that they don't keep this system, both on the 15 abilities front, and the way mages are now, whm isn't a whm from the majority of the old ff lore, blm isn't a blm from the majority of the old ff lore, yet the claim is, "We drew from previous FFs." What I mean by this is, to clarify, WHM hasn't every been a job that has a DD repertoire, BLM has always been the job that has elemental control to a science. This we have 2 Elemental mages not a whm and a blm, the only distinction is that blm can't heal and buff as well.

---

What I mean by Fire/Lightning/Ice being more destructive, is that they are, in and of themselves, destructive. While water is literally life giving, earth and wind are typically more serene, being that they are not exaggeration in and over themselves. Yes, anything can be come destructive, but honestly, if I REALLY wanted to I could probably kill someone with a rubber dildo. Dividing up the elements like it is has cool thematic possibilities.

I think with the 15 ability limit is so they have room to grow. Making sure that every (most) abilities are useful, and making sure they'll all be able to be within quick reach was a rather specific design choice. With the 15 from current class + 10 cross class abilities, they have room for 5 more when they raise the level cap. With jobs, the 15 class abilities + 5 cross class abilities + 5 Job abilities, does the same, it leaves 5 more available slots for when they raise the level cap.

Quote:

---

Complex but easy to understand was achieved in many of them, with 8 elements the system isn't any more diffucult to understand just more robust, there's more options, more you CAN do, if someone still wants to cast nothing but the one spell they can, but those that want the more robust complex system are welcome to use it.

---

Just because there are more elements, doesn't mean it was more robust. It was a rather shallow system, being that there were no layers. To this day FFVI, when used properly, had a very layered magic system. Sometimes it was simple, other times it was hard to tell what element to use, when to use it, and how to use it. FFXI really was just matching up with the wheel.

Quote:

---

They are! Just every bit as good as thunder, I'd say! In their particular roles. For diminished damaged, Fire gains AoE and it's just as good at AoE damage as Thunder is good in ST damage (Thunder-level damage to an AoE would be overpowered), Blizzard exchanges damage for enfeebling statuses and in Blizarra's case instant cast. Blizzard is as good at enfeebling as Thunder is good at dealing damage! They have very distinct roles and are equally proficient, in their own roles.

---

I think he means more of an in general stand point. When you run into a single strong earth enemy, you kinda get screwed. Sure each of the three elements have a situation where they really shine, but overall it mostly comes down to single target = Lightning, multiple targets, that won't all turn on me easily or die fast enough = fire, and ice well, it is what it is.

Quote:

---

Presumably so cheap tactics like 'stunlocking' aren't usable and so that 'trench battles' become an uphill challange, making the playerbase shy away from excessively long, drawn-out battles and adding a more dynamic element to battle. Wether they implemented that correctly or failed at it, I cannot say, but it's possible to discern the intent of it.

---

I really do agree with him when it comes to enfeebles. I feel kinda sad without them. Though in order to fit them in the current system, they'd have to remove something. Which I think they could do if they also rebalanced existing abilities, and maybe also add some traits.

you know ppl say that water is more for healing then i think, Acid rain, tsunami, mudslides, flash floods and torrential rains. Water is one of the destructive forces on the planet. Their is no reason to look at water as only a healing base. Its foolish.

Now granted yes water was only in 10 and 11 as far as i remember. But have new elements in the game was awesome. Hell 11 Blew me away when they started Adding Dual Elements based elementals in Abysses think omg are Blms gonna gonna get spells like that and since they were Elementals are Smn gonna get Dual elemental avatars llike Ty7phoon wind/fire based.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

you know ppl say that water is more for healing then i think, Acid rain, tsunami, mudslides, flash floods and torrential rains. Water is one of the destructive forces on the planet. Their is no reason to look at water as only a healing base. Its foolish.

Now granted yes water was only in 10 and 11 as far as i remember. But have new elements in the game was awesome. Hell 11 Blew me away when they started Adding Dual Elements based elementals in Abysses think omg are Blms gonna gonna get spells like that and since they were Elementals are Smn gonna get Dual elemental avatars llike Ty7phoon wind/fire based.

---

Anything can be pushed to the extreme. People O.D. on vitamin C. It could very well be argued that in order to push water, wind, and earth to the point to where it's offensively useful, you'd have to be extraordinarily powerful, while Fire/Ice/Lightning are easier to use offensively.

This could also be used to separate summoner offensively from BLM. If summoner is like FFXIs summoner, they could have espers/aeons (whatever) of all 6 elements, but only have access to one element at a time, while BLM could remain restricted to the destructive trio, but still, have the content of the game balanced for both. Maybe the devs particularly want certain enemies to be resistant to all BLM elements, or neutral to them, while at the same time allowing other elements to shine. We don't exactly what the devs want or where they are coming from, but any method can be justified. After my initial reaction I find this set up, baring a few content issues, to be much better and less shallow than the previous method.

Fire is as life giving as water, and water brings death just as easily as fire. the same is true for all the elements, you can defend the life giving aspects of any of them, eskimo's w/o ice and fire would be extinct ...
our food w/o fire would have a larger rate of killing us do to being uncooked.
No lightning having been harnessed? No electricity no modern tech age for us to have this argument via.
Let's let these kind of arguments go.

Now we are getting philosophical and into semantics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enfarious

Fire is as life giving as water, and water brings death just as easily as fire. the same is true for all the elements, you can defend the life giving aspects of any of them, eskimo's w/o ice and fire would be extinct ...
our food w/o fire would have a larger rate of killing us do to being uncooked.
No lightning having been harnessed? No electricity no modern tech age for us to have this argument via.
Let's let these kind of arguments go.

---

Well then you are clearly missing the point, since there were three people sitting behind me at Starbucks who were reading over my shoulder who agreed with me. Apparently they played and didn't understand why I wanted to buy a hot coffee to spill on them.

Point being, it's great the way it is now where the character are concerned, content needs changed to conform, but that's likely going to happen with 2.0. We already know what we all agree on and disagree on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skies

I cannot given an answer to that given I do not think that holds true, sorry. You could tell me why you think it does, though.

They are! Just every bit as good as thunder, I'd say! In their particular roles. For diminished damaged, Fire gains AoE and it's just as good at AoE damage as Thunder is good in ST damage (Thunder-level damage to an AoE would be overpowered), Blizzard exchanges damage for enfeebling statuses and in Blizarra's case instant cast. Blizzard is as good at enfeebling as Thunder is good at dealing damage! They have very distinct roles and are equally proficient, in their own roles.

I think it's consensus that Burst is excessively underwhelming, that one I cannot excuse but i've no experience with it. However, you need to reavail your concepts, Freeze is not a direct DD spell, but it increases your DPS considerably by reducing your enmity by a large amount. Like the rest of the Blizzard spells it's a utility, not a raw damage, spell and from what I gather it's incredibly powerful at it's role, utility and 'buff'. Flare, presumably, has an extremely high amount of damage for an AoE, so instead of paying with damage for the AoE it instead pays with target restriction.

Presumably, because White Mage is not supposed to have that powerful of a spell. Seriously, for that much power and instant cast for a job that's certainly not meant to deal damage, why, it's a suitable price. What other price would you suggest?

Presumably so cheap tactics like 'stunlocking' aren't usable and so that 'trench battles' become an uphill challange, making the playerbase shy away from excessively long, drawn-out battles and adding a more dynamic element to battle. Wether they implemented that correctly or failed at it, I cannot say, but it's possible to discern the intent of it.

---

SE made it so I have to cross-class only aero and stone over from Cjn, that automatically makes them less effective for me. What it should be is if you want to solo, you should be penalized to cross classing, that way you get to solo and get penalized for it, and I would have all the elemental spells and have variety other than thunder line.

Ice sucks period. It's not useful at all, it's an enfeeble. They made enfeebles worthless. No one notices this because no one uses them. It's all spam fire on trash mobs. Fire is not MP sufficient as Thunder line, and neither is it's damage since it's not bad on Intelligence like thundara when comboed. If there was a reform I would hope that all the spells when comboed are Intelligence based. Seriously use sleepga once on a group of Ixali, then hit them with fire and try to sleep them again.

Ancient magic spells...should be the highest grade of spells. When have you seen a Final Fantasy where Freeze, Flare, Tornado, Quake(break), Burst didn't do pure damage. Freeze,flare, burst should be renamed frost, burn, and shock. They aren't the real deal magic spells that everyone knows them for. Which is purely high damage, not enfeebles.

Holy, should be god damn amazing for all your mp. I do love how all these white mage/conjurers say "we don't need magic acc". Ok cool then you shouldn't have Aero/Stone it's wasted on you. It should be on the class that uses Mag acc. "Oh but we need that to solo" and this leads back to solo taking priority over party play somehow.

I wouldn't use stun enfeeble over my damage dealing ability. Cause enfeebles sucks. They. Don't. Work. There is no dynamic fight, it's all come back to zerging. Looks at Princess, look at moogles, look Ixali camps, when do you ever see sleepga go off.

With how you worded things like "presumably" and "no experience" I take it you don't play Blm/Thm?

I only have my Thaumaturge at level... 14 was it? IT's in my signature. I do play Conjurer, however, and the last boss fight my LS actually won I was playing it :D

I think you also literally illustrated the reason why enfeebles why the way they do right now right there in your example about the Ixali. They're high-level mobs, that attack in a huge band, you're seriously not supposed to solo that stuff, but if Enfeebles were in fact as powerful as you want them to be they'd be easily soloable as a Thaumaturge.

Although speaking of it, have you tried the strategy of 'sleepga the lot, pick them off one by one with Thunder'?

Also- WHY, in heaven's name, needs the 'spells that carry the Ancient Magic spell names' invariably be DD? Why can't they be powerful support spells? Is that a legacy term issue? Because that that's pretty silly and, sincerely, a choice left to style alone, you can't say that any of the three short of Burst is not working their potential.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skies

I only have my Thaumaturge at level... 14 was it? IT's in my signature. I do play Conjurer, however, and the last boss fight my LS actually won I was playing it :D

I think you also literally illustrated the reason why enfeebles why the way they do right now right there in your example about the Ixali. They're high-level mobs, that attack in a huge band, you're seriously not supposed to solo that stuff, but if Enfeebles were in fact as powerful as you want them to be they'd be easily soloable as a Thaumaturge.

Although speaking of it, have you tried the strategy of 'sleepga the lot, pick them off one by one with Thunder'?

Also- WHY, in heaven's name, needs the 'spells that carry the Ancient Magic spell names' invariably be DD? Why can't they be powerful support spells? Is that a legacy term issue? Because that that's pretty silly and, sincerely, a choice left to style alone, you can't say that any of the three short of Burst is not working their potential.

---

That's my point about the enfeebles, when it matters it doesn't work. Picking off an Ixali one at a time is not a good idea. One you'll waste MP really quickly, two when they wake up you'll probably be inclined to try a dark seal sleepga, which will still not help it last longer. They will wake up at once again and you'll probably have extremely low MP and die. And you can't Sleepga as Thm so you can't afford to fight more than one at a time.

Lastly, why should Ancient magic spells be purely damage dealing? Because everyone loves to throw around traditions, such as Whm having Aero. So I am throwing this into the mix that Ancient magic spells have always be the highest form of magic damage dealing it and should be that way. The only time I use Freeze is to reduce my agro not good damage unless you critical hit, even then it's not that great. Flare is stupid, for trash mobs only, use it against someone like coincounter or Chimera you'll probably die.

Bump, need some developer responses.

Bumpity bump.

Yes Ancient Magic has always been the end all huge dmg huge mp cost spells that you cant just spam all the time.

So from the silence of the developer team, I take it that there are no plans for even in 2.0 for black mage/ Thaumaturge getting spell changes. Or that a spell reform is even being considered, because splitting the elements was not a good idea.

Just say there are no currents plans even in 2.0 so I can quit now. I am tired of using 1 spell for everything. If this isn't gonna change then I might as well quit.

So your going to quit because the Devs are not bowing down to you and kissing your feet? Since you're a Lalafell it might be a little difficult, especially if one of them are a Roegadyn, he'll have to lay on his stomach, and he'd be able to fit your entire leg into his mouth.

If that's your attitude, then quit. Whether the change it or not, doesn't matter, it's a game, it can be justified in many ways, and it's the content that's important relative to the set up.