Toxic WHM Glare spammers

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Re-read my first post in this thread please.



But I'm talking about Glare cases only. Which of us should use glasses?

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I asked you few times - why i need drop "glare only mod" if co-healer from start healing unoptimal? NOT PRE-PULL. You avoid answer at all

If I’m healing (on any class) and i see the other healer is putting up regens and shield and Medicas or playing cards while the party is at 90 percent, then I’m going to dps.

I’m doing so to make up for your lack of dps.

It’s fine saying ‘oh I have to do all the healing because you’re not doing it’ but it works both ways. The game is designed around healers doing dps and there isn’t enough damage at most points of a fight to warrant two healers both healing.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Re-read my first post in this thread please.

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In such a case I must tell you to git gud and have confidence in letting hp drop lower, you're not supposed to keep everyone's health up all the time and neither is your cohealer. Or maybe you're just being dumb and not noticing the outgoing heals because they're all OGCDs? True green dps are a rarity.

Also, regens are a thing and so is natural hp regeneration (alongside bloodbath and other dps-specific regen tools), you don't have to rush to get everyone to full a lot of times as there will be a good 20 or 30 seconds before the next instance of raidwide damage in most fights.

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Originally Posted by Ashpd

I asked you few times - why i need drop "glare only mod" if co-healer from start healing unoptimal? NOT PRE-PULL. You avoid answer at all

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Facepalm. I don't understand why you are asking me this question, while I am talking about healers who do nothing at all only Glare. Even when the group is in critical condition.

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

In such a case I must tell you to git gud and have confidence in letting hp drop lower, you're not supposed to keep everyone's health up all the time and neither is your cohealer. Or maybe you're just being dumb and not noticing the outgoing heals because they're all OGCDs? True green dps are a rarity.

Also, regens are a thing and so is natural hp regeneration (alongside bloodbath and other dps-specific regen tools), you don't have to rush to get everyone to full a lot of times as there will be a good 20 or 30 seconds before the next instance of raidwide damage in most fights.

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Thank you, I know all of this, I have extensive experience in solo healing and healing whole group as a tank.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

I’m doing so to make up for your lack of dps.

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What you say is a myth. The real lack of dps is felt when you heal extremely more than your group does damage. Because mobs and bosses hit you harder than you with your pretty green dps. If in normal/alliance raids and regular dungeons healer are forced to do a bunch of dps instead of dpsers, then something is wrong with you, your group and the run in general.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

If you want to do "full damage", que as a DPS. Why not? Collecting glams, quick pop and bonuses prevent you from doing this?

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You're basically saying "Play how I want you to play." If that's not toxic, then please tell me what is.

Now, I don't heal much, but I really don't understand what's wrong with saying "don't DPS spam when people are dying."

Everyone's all good on hp, and nothing's happening? Glare away.

50%? Broil 3 go brrrrr.

2 dps are dead and the main tank is in 4 digits of HP? What are you doing?

Before anyone says it, yes, a good healer wouldn't have let that happen. But we aren't talking about good healers.

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Originally Posted by Keizerwilson

You're basically saying "Play how I want you to play." If that's not toxic, then please tell me what is.

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No, I'm just saying heal if you're playing a healer. This is not the way I want you to play, but the way that your role suggests.

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Originally Posted by Bopsheezi

2 dps are dead and the main tank is in 4 digits of HP? What are you doing?

Before anyone says it, yes, a good healer wouldn't have let that happen. But we aren't talking about good healers.

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Literally yesterday's situation, Coppied Factroy, 3 dps are dead (NIN, SMN, RDM) both heals Broil/Glare spam all that time, who cares... They probably thought they were doing incredible damage.

TOXIC BLM FIRE IV SPAMMERS

I know this situation is not new at all, but it is quite annoying and ruins the fun of the game.

Every time I see a BLM in my party, I expect that this player may not move, instead there will be FIRE IV spam. No thunder, no ice, no virus, not the slightest effort. Sometimes just Blizzard III or Blizzard IV on 5/10% MP, or moving only themselves.

In 80% of cases, everything turns out to be exactly that toxic way, and either I have to DPS the entire raid alone as a Dragoon, losing a huge amount of time away from boss. Or I have to think only about my own survival instead of wall-to-wall pulls and uptime playing as a tank or dps.

It's not a big problem if I'm playing PLD or WAR, but I'm not having fun at all, compensating for someone's laziness. The joke about selfish DPS is no longer funny. Cause I come to have fun and not to DPS for them or try to survive while they are throwing fire.

Disclaimer: Not all BLM's behave this way. There are excellent players to whom I am very grateful, but due to subjective experience, I have met spammers of fire much more often.

The problem is simply people not knowing how to tell the difference between a healer who is playing their class optimally and one of these bad healers. It is so tiring as a WHM when you get people with PTSD from an experience they had with another WHM and they end up shitting their pants the moment you cast 1 glare.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

TOXIC BLM FIRE IV SPAMMERS

I know this situation is not new at all, but it is quite annoying and ruins the fun of the game.

Every time I see a BLM in my party, I expect that this player may not move, instead there will be FIRE IV spam. No thunder, no ice, no virus, not the slightest effort. Sometimes just Blizzard III or Blizzard IV on 5/10% MP, or moving only themselves.

In 80% of cases, everything turns out to be exactly that toxic way, and either I have to DPS the entire raid alone as a Dragoon, losing a huge amount of time away from boss. Or I have to think only about my own survival instead of wall-to-wall pulls and uptime playing as a tank or dps.

It's not a big problem if I'm playing PLD or WAR, but I'm not having fun at all, compensating for someone's laziness. The joke about selfish DPS is no longer funny. Cause I come to have fun and not to DPS for them or try to survive while they are throwing fire.

Disclaimer: Not all BLM's behave this way. There are excellent players to whom I am very grateful, but due to subjective experience, I have met spammers of fire much more often.

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Try harder. Ice mages is a thing still. =)

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Originally Posted by SweetestLily

The problem is simply people not knowing how to tell the difference between a healer who is playing their class optimally and one of these bad healers. It is so tiring as a WHM when you get people with PTSD from an experience they had with another WHM and they end up shitting their pants the moment you cast 1 glare.

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What's worse is that you can't tell the difference until around 10% HP at times.

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Originally Posted by Hatfright

Try harder. Ice mages is a thing still. =)

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Distant Seinfeld theme playing in the background

Look if you're a WHM I would assume part of doing your job would be to keep a regen on the tank.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Distant Seinfeld theme playing in the background

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How nice of you to let me know of the soundtrack to your mindset.

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Originally Posted by SweetestLily

The problem is simply people not knowing how to tell the difference between a healer who is playing their class optimally and one of these bad healers. It is so tiring as a WHM when you get people with PTSD from an experience they had with another WHM and they end up shitting their pants the moment you cast 1 glare.

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The problem is that you are not reading exactly what I am talking about. I'm talking about people who don't heal at all. No way. Nowhere. Savage PF group. Heal is dead, tank is dead, WHM spamming their Glare while RDM and SMN resing ppl. And no, I'm not against off-dps optimization. Unless it's when half of your group is dead and the rest are 5% HP, because lack of healing.

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Originally Posted by Hatfright

How nice of you to let me know of the soundtrack to your mindset.

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https://i.chzbgr.com/original/574562...age-5745622528

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In 80% of cases, everything turns out to be exactly that toxic way, and either I have to heal the entire raid alone as a healer, losing a huge amount of mana. Or I have to think only about my own survival instead of wall-to-wall pulls and uptime playing as a tank or dps.

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If your percentage is correct, I would suspect that you are potentially overhealing. This may not be true, it's just a gut first impression. I have played with a number who make me feel like a solo healer, and it's stressful, but I can't agree that the percentage is that high. I *tend* to be a responsible healer, but if I have a co-healer who on their own accord isn't doing much offensive output and tends to overheal, I do lighten up on the healing. There's no sense in overhealing the overheal. At the same time, I am also an aggressive WHM. I absolutely will DPS, and I will not play the game of keeping everyone at 100%, as overheal is a waste of MP, a waste of effort, and in end slows things down for everyone.

That playstyle isn't for everyone. Some people believe that healers shouldn't DPS, or do so at a very sparing pace. The way I see it...if the party doesn't die, and if I have a co-healer my effort healing lines up, there's really nothing to talk about.

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Originally Posted by Ashemmi

If your percentage is correct, I would suspect that you are potentially overhealing.

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Yeah, with my Nascent Flash, Abyssal Drain, Aurora and Clemency as a tank in dungeons and with my spreaded Adlo and faerie's Embrace in raids.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

The problem is that you are not reading exactly what I am talking about. I'm talking about people who don't heal at all. No way. Nowhere. Savage PF group. Heal is dead, tank is dead, WHM spamming their Glare while RDM and SMN resing ppl. And no, I'm not against off-dps optimization. Unless it's when half of your group is dead and the rest are 5% HP, because lack of healing.

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If a is healer performing like that in a Savage PF group they should just be kicked and replaced, end of story. There is no excusing a healer (or anyone tbh) not using their ogcds in savage content and they are essentially dead weight.
Same could apply for current/recent ex primals as well.

In most other situations though, if people aren't dying then what is the problem? Healers can solo heal pretty much any Duty Finder content. If the other healer can't handle it, then dps-only healers will either have to start healing or eat the wipe.
If the other healer is dead on the ground and a healer just keeps only dpsing that will be a wipe and they should just be kicked and replaced. If it ends up a kill then well, it's fine b/c it's a kill.

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Originally Posted by Machka

If a is healer performing like that in a Savage PF group they should just be kicked and replaced, end of story. There is no excusing a healer (or anyone tbh) not using their ogcds in savage content and they are essentially dead weight.
Same could apply for current/recent ex primals as well.

In most other situations though, if people aren't dying then what is the problem? Healers can solo heal pretty much any Duty Finder content. If the other healer can't handle it, then dps-only healers will either have to start healing or eat the wipe.
If the other healer is dead on the ground and a healer just keeps only dpsing that will be a wipe and they should just be kicked and replaced. If it ends up a kill then well, it's fine b/c it's a kill.

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All of this sounds good under ideal conditions. In practice, it ends in wipes. You kicking one green DPS from the group and another one comes to you. You know, this is very strange to look at, when a group takes damage in the Bunker (newbies, AOE, tactical mistakes), three people are alive, including you, the second heal and the tank, and your co-heal just spaming Glare while the tank tries to shield you, while you resing ppl. Or when one of the groups killed you, your co-heal was raised first and he, resurrected you, immediately starts spamming Glare.

But did you die?!

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Originally Posted by MPK

But did you die?!

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When? When did the other group deploy their boss on us? Or when I resurrected our group?

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Originally Posted by RajNish

The problem is that you are not reading exactly what I am talking about. I'm talking about people who don't heal at all. No way. Nowhere. Savage PF group. Heal is dead, tank is dead, WHM spamming their Glare while RDM and SMN resing ppl. And no, I'm not against off-dps optimization. Unless it's when half of your group is dead and the rest are 5% HP, because lack of healing.

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I read EXACTLY what you said and quite frankly I think you are being hyperbolic. You already admitted to prejudging every white mage you get based off of experiences with other white mages being bad. What is there to argue about? And I refuse to believe 80% of the white mages you get don't heal at all. I have played this game for years and that percentage is ridiculously exaggerated. That leads me to believe you are one of the people who don't know what optimal white mage play is.

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Originally Posted by Ashemmi

I *tend* to be a responsible healer, but if I have a co-healer who on their own accord isn't doing much offensive output and tends to overheal, I do lighten up on the healing. There's no sense in overhealing the overheal. At the same time, I am also an aggressive WHM. I absolutely will DPS, and I will not play the game of keeping everyone at 100%, as overheal is a waste of MP, a waste of effort, and in end slows things down for everyone.

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This.

I mean, every healer can have an afternoon where they get tunnel vision—honestly, any job can—and get focused on "I WILL KILL THIS THING" to the point that they don't notice the DPS has just eaten an AoE and is now staggering around bleeding from basically everywhere. Tanks can get tunnel vision and miss that there's one late-arriving mob not on their aggro table who they don't have aggro on. DPS can get tunnel vision and... well, eat an AoE and stagger around bleeding from basically everywhere.

But a good healer will judge the party within a couple of pulls. If you're in an 8-man or 24-man instance and your co-healer is going nuts with healing everyone to full, why heal atop their healing? Sure, try it for a bit, because sometimes they'll go "oh, good, my co-healer knows what they're doing, we'll be fine" and chill out, but most often they won't; at that point, the party benefits more if you swap to focusing on damage. If mister Angry Spinning Eyeball dies faster, we're all on to the next thing that much more quickly. Obviously keep an eye on things while you DPS; if the co-healer runs out of MP or is struggling/dead, yes, you should switch your focus.

And sure, if I see a tank who's clearly nervous and freaking out when I let their health drop a bit low, then I'll shift gears and keep them closer to topped-off even when I know it's overkill. Because "read the room" is a skill most MMO players should have.

In general, though, good healers are going to know when to heal and when not to; "the tank is at 70% health" is (generally) not when to heal, unless there's an incoming tankbuster or you've got a tank who legitimately isn't using any mitigations at all but has pulled eleventy-hundred mobs all at once. After all, if a tank is at 90% health and I hit them with a heal that would heal them to 110% health, I've wasted 10% of that. If I do it every time the tank drops to 90% health, then after three heals I've wasted 30% of my healing, nearly a full third. Whereas if I let them drop lower and hit them with those same heals I've done the same number of casts, yet countered more incoming damage.

Plus, some abilities literally heal more depending on how low the target's health is. As an AST, I'll happily let a tank drop to 40-50% if I'm about to hit them with an Essential Dignity due to the way it scales. As a WHM, I'll let a tank drop to ~20% if I'm planning to use Benediction to heal them, because no one will ever convince me that Benediction should be only an "oh shit" button; it's one of the best parts of a WHM's healing arsenal and should not be left in a glass "In Case of Emergency" box. (Though going much below 15% makes me nervous about server ticks, because we've all seen the 'whups, Benediction went off the second AFTER the tank dropped' moments...)

When folks ask "did you die?" with regards to a healer's performance, it comes across as snarky, I grant. And it's hardly a perfect question; you might not have died, but that might've been because you had an inept healer but a really good RDM who could judge exactly when Vercure was needed and compensate. But there's some truth to it nonetheless; if your complaint is "I got below 50% health", but the healer still had the situation fully under control... well, did you die? No? Then the healer probably knew what they were doing.

Situations differ, of course, because a WHM at 80 and a WHM level-synced to 50 are very different healing kits; the former has several excellent OGCD tools (Tetra, Benediction, Benison, Plenary, Assize... though really, that last one is a DPS skill with a convenient healing side-effect) as well as three good instant-cast GCD tools (Regen, Solace, and Rapture), which means I can basically drop a heal-nuke incredibly quickly. While the latter has... well, Benediction and Regen, and then a bunch of GCD tools subject to cast time. So a WHM at 50 probably SHOULD be spending more time focused on healing than one at 80 will, yes.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Look if you're a WHM I would assume part of doing your job would be to keep a regen on the tank.

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Then you assume wrong. Regen when needed, yes. But if it's not needed it's a wasted cast when the tank would have been healed by your assize or Asylum or what have you that's coming up.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

I know this situation is not new at all, but it is quite annoying and ruins the fun of the game.

Every time I see a WHM in my party, I expect that this player may not heal, instead there will be Glare/Stones spam. No regen, no bubble, no res, not the slightest effort. Sometimes just Cure I/II on 5-10% HP, or healing only themselves.

In 80% of cases, everything turns out to be exactly that toxic way, and either I have to heal the entire raid alone as a healer, losing a huge amount of mana. Or I have to think only about my own survival instead of wall-to-wall pulls and uptime playing as a tank or dps.

It's not a big problem if I'm playing PLD or WAR, but I'm not having fun at all, compensating for someone's laziness. The joke about green DPS is no longer funny. Cause I come to have fun and not to heal for them or try to survive while they are throwing stones.

Disclaimer: Not all WHM's behave this way. There are excellent players to whom I am very grateful, but due to subjective experience, I have met spammers of stones much more often.

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You, sir, are an example of why I don't heal random dungeons. I refuse to queue as a healer in any 4 party dungeon. As a person who enjoys healing, and playing 2 out of 3 healing classes, I have found the toxic expectations towards a healer to be bothersome. "DPS, don't DPS, Heal this way not that way, You Heal too much, you heal too little." it's always the same story.

As a Healer player, I love actually healing, I love keeping my team alive and being able to help them, but the attitudes healers get from Tanks mostly has forced me to only heal friends, or Raids and Trials. So remember this while you wait 30minutes for a queue to pop on a random dungeon, and think, is the lack of healers caused by something you said?

p.s. White Mage and Astrologian, not a fan of fairy healing, as it all feels to automated.

I’m not going to suggest that you’re lying 100% but in my years of playing since 2.x, I have literally never run into a healer like this. At least, not in any situation where it’s caused a problem. Far, FAR more often do I see curebots who never bother to use Holy/Gravity/Art of War, their single target DPS spells, constantly use the garbage skill each healer gets as their first basic heal or Medica/Succor/Helios, etc. In my mind, for this to be a problem worth making a forum post about suggests that you are either being hyperbolic or are otherwise conflating DPS optimization with literally only casting Glare.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

You, sir, are an example of why I don't heal random dungeons. I refuse to queue as a healer in any 4 party dungeon. As a person who enjoys healing, and playing 2 out of 3 healing classes, I have found the toxic expectations towards a healer to be bothersome. "DPS, don't DPS, Heal this way not that way, You Heal too much, you heal too little." it's always the same story.

As a Healer player, I love actually healing, I love keeping my team alive and being able to help them, but the attitudes healers get from Tanks mostly has forced me to only heal friends, or Raids and Trials. So remember this while you wait 30minutes for a queue to pop on a random dungeon, and think, is the lack of healers caused by something you said?

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We'd get along at least. My attitude towards random healers in dungeons is simple "no wipe, no problem". I could (and often do) notice when healers aren't making full use of their moveset as the OP describes, but when tanking I'm simply too concerned with keeping the pain train moving to stop and offer a critique. It's only when wipes start happening that I consider giving my feedback.

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Originally Posted by sleepy-bear

We'd get along at least. My attitude towards random healers in dungeons is simple "no wipe, no problem". I could (and often do) notice when healers aren't making full use of their moveset as the OP describes, but when tanking I'm simply too concerned with keeping the pain train moving to stop and offer a critique. It's only when wipes start happening that I consider giving my feedback.

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Typically same; you never know when someone is having an off day, as it happens to everyone. I give the benefit of the doubt and only start saying something if it /really/ starts to affect the whole party in a way it becomes bothersome.

I try to be nice about it too (at least as much as I can; everyone takes things differently). Because again, you'll never know how the person on the other side of the screen is fairing.

The skill of healing in this game - outside of the actually challenging rote learned content - is being able to always be casting your main dps spell but playing the GCD so you're covering the healing.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Look if you're a WHM I would assume part of doing your job would be to keep a regen on the tank.

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Not always. By default, I enter throwing regen and Devine Benison on the tank. In standard content, I will alternate between Asylum and Temperance when the tank stops with whatever size group he pulls. Assize and Holy spam, then assess. Ideally healing will involve Afflatus Solace so I can get my blood lily. If the tank hasn't taken much damage because they're mitigating well, or DPS is absolutely rolling with the group, it's very unlikely that I will bother with regen. That tick will cut into my ability to generate the lily. If the tank is getting hammered, regen is a thing. All in all, I am more likely to toss a regen on a single DPS who took some damage. Their need usually isn't as deep, nor as regular. That said, I tend to utilize regen quite a bit, typically about as much as I use assize, it's just not a guarantee for the tank.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Look if you're a WHM I would assume part of doing your job would be to keep a regen on the tank.

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Regen is cast if you're moving.

Sound about the way I play WHM, if a heal isn't needed it's not being cast.
I start with regen, medica II and spam DPS spells. 90% of the time that takes it to the end of the pull whether it be 1 or 2 groups.

My goal after you pull is to never cure past 100% as a WHM healer with shields is different. But as a WHM if I'm curing over 100% it means I'm overhealing and should be casting DPS spells.

On the other side of the note my hubby isn't a very good healer and almost never cast anything but heals, he gets panicked, I would fall asleep with all that downtime.

Well I'd rather a healer who doesn't dps than a healer who doesn't heal. You can just pull more if the healer only wants to heal. You end up having to pull less if the healer refuses to heal.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well I'd rather a healer who doesn't dps than a healer who doesn't heal. You can just pull more if the healer only wants to heal. You end up having to pull less if the healer refuses to heal.

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I'd tacitly agree, but with the caveat that upon trying this as a tank the zero dps healers are also usually incapable enough that full pulls are sketchy at best. I used to have the mentality of "well if you only want to heal I'll give you something to heal" but now like... they're bad and I treat them as such.

I've also not experienced a healer in 4man fully refusing to heal. Like maybe not healing dps when they take avoidable damage which sometimes leads to their death upon them taking unavoidable damage but I've not seen someone just not heal at all apart from a SCH in AV once who wouldn't cast succor or WD. We couldn't progress past the first boss because no one could stay alive through the bleed.

I personally have little use for combat healers that are dps first, healer second. I will use Holy if I can go through the cast time and not lose the tank (which depending on the tank and the pull can be a problem)

if I have time and no one is in urgent need of healing I will help with dps,

most of the time I dont trust the other healers to do the work unless I know them, so yes, if the other healer seems to only want to throw glare, I just ignore them and complain about it later, and hope to never see them in a raid in my group again. (or heal for me if I am anything other than healer lol)

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well I'd rather a healer who doesn't dps than a healer who doesn't heal.

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I too, would prefer a mud sandwich over one filled with broken glass, but neither are exactly desirable.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I too, would prefer a mud sandwich over one filled with broken glass, but neither are exactly desirable.

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I agree they're both bad but one is definitely worse than the other.

yea its a thing haha. I do admit to getting annoyed by this quite a lot, but in a calm state of mind I say let people play the way they want to play, whether we think its bad or not.

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Originally Posted by SweetestLily

I have played this game for years and that percentage is ridiculously exaggerated. That leads me to believe you are one of the people who don't know what optimal white mage play is.

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If a group of 4/8 people are dead because healer is not healing, this is definitely not the optimal playstyle. When the tank heals group and the DPS revives the party members, while the healer is dpsing, this is again not the optimal playstyle. If a healer casts regen on a tank before pull, and then suffers from aggro, running away in a panic, this is not the optimal playstyle. If whole group begging for LB3, but heal simply does not know what it is, having 80 lvl, this is not the optimal playstyle.

So, if you are using your healing skills optimally alongside your dps, this conversation is not about you.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

You, sir, are an example of why I don't heal random dungeons. I refuse to queue as a healer in any 4 party dungeon.

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If the opinion of strangers is of such importance, of course, not going to the dungeons with pugs is a good decision.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

So remember this while you wait 30minutes for a queue to pop on a random dungeon, and think, is the lack of healers caused by something you said?

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I’m usually playing as heal or tank, so I’m not waiting 30 minutes for a queue to pop.

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Originally Posted by Squig

Far, FAR more often do I see curebots who never bother to use Holy/Gravity/Art of War, their single target DPS spells, constantly use the garbage skill each healer gets as their first basic heal or Medica/Succor/Helios, etc.

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I've seen bots in more than 4600 dungeons a couple of times only, but I'm not sure if they were bots. Does this mean that you are lying or hyperbolic? I don’t think so. It just means that you and I have different experiences. Maybe it depends on the data center, I don't know.